LDS Freedom Forum

Jesef wrote:Would a child of Christ choose contention? What is contention? Heated/angry disagreement, disputation, argument, discord, conflict, friction, strife, etc.? Isn't there always just a little bit of anger when we just have to prove our point? What is Love/Charity if not harmlessness and helpfulness? Just sharing some thoughts. May you all be blessed and healed and filled and loved!

Rachael wrote:I never got to ride the DS train. Never heard of him til lurking here. After a few months, the HG was closed and I had been reading his more recent blogs, which evidently shows a metamorphosis that isn't appealing to many of his ground floor followers (or me).

11 Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.

The Law? Again I say unto you that it shall not be given unto any one to go forth to preach my gospel or to build up my church except they be ordained by some one that hath authority & it is known to the church that he hath authority & have been regularly ordained by the leaders of the church

Wilford Woodruff Diary
Conference met at 10 oclock April 8th
President J Smith arose and said it is impossible to continue the subject that I spoke upon yesterday in Consequence of the weekness of my lungs. Yet I have a proclamation to make to the Elders you know the Lord has led the Church untill the present time I have now a great proclamation for the Elders to teach the Church hereafter which is in relation to Zion, The whole of North and South America is Zion, the mountain of the Lords House is in the Centre of North & South America, when the House is done, Baptism font erectd and finished & the worthy are washed, anointed, endowed & ordained Kings & priests, 11 which must be done in this life, when the place is prepared you must go through all the ordinances of the house of the Lord so that you who have any dead friends must go through all the ordinances for them the same as for yourselves; then the Elders are to go through all America & build up Churches untill all Zion is built up, but not to commence to do this untill the Temple is built up here and the Elders endowed then go forth & accomplish the work & build up stakes in all North and South America, Their will be some place ordained for the redeeming of the dead I think this place will be the one, so their will be gathering fast enough here. President Smith lungs failed him and he appointed Elder G. J. Adams to occupy the time during the foornoon He however remarked that his proclamation just made was the greatest ever made as all could not come here; 12 but it was necessary that enough should come to build up the temple & get an endowment so that the work could spread abroad.

Thomas Bullock Report
Monday morning
Prayer by Pres Young-after which choir sung an hymn
Prophet it is just as impossible for me to continue the subject as to raise the dead-my lungs are worn out-I will do so anor. day. has led this Church by revn. I have anr. revn. a great grand & glorious revn. & this is what I am going to declare-you kno there has been great discusn. where Zion is & when the gathg. of the D is & which I am to-the whole America is the Land itself N. & S itself & is descd. by the Prophets that it shod. be in the centre of the land. the declan. is that as soon as the temple & B font is prepd. & so as we can wash & anoint the El of Israel there must be a place prepd for that purpose-there are provins made until the work is compd. to be as K & P of the mos H. God but as all to do with the hs of God-but there must be an express place built for that purpose & for men to be B for their dd for every man who wishes to save the F & M. B. S & F. must go thro the same-B-A. W. & all the protectn. of the powers of the Priesthood same as for themselves-the Elders of Israel shall build Churches unto the Ld. & there shall they build Churches unto the Ld: there shall be a Stake of Zion-it is a glorious pro-& I reserved it to the last & desn. it to be understd. that it shall be after the washg. & anointg. here-the place that the Ld. has estd. for the Sn. of the dead-there must be a parlar place. I verily belive this to be the place-& men who wish to save their dead must come here to be B for their dead-& then may go back agn.-& I shall leave m Brern to enlarge-it is my duty to teach those who err in doctrine-the Sp is willg. but the flesh is weak 13-if God made Aaron to be their mouthpiece & Made me to be their K. & their God 14 & if you dont like it you must lump it-I have give instron to El Adams in some principles-if he makes a mistake I will tell it.

marc wrote:Squeak up! Bahahaha! :))

deep water wrote:

marc wrote:Squeak up! Bahahaha! :))

What is Bahahaha? My youngest son does this a lot, but I have never ask him what Bahahaha ment. He is the only person i have heard say it until now and I thought he just made it up.

Rachael wrote:That can be explained by the examples of Abinadi, Samuel the Lamanite, or even Paul. All bypass conventional authority as we recognize it

The Law? Again I say unto you that it shall not be given unto any one to go forth to preach my gospel or to build up my church except they be ordained by some one that hath authority & it is known to the church that he hath authority & have been regularly ordained by the leaders of the church

Jesef wrote:Btw, this also relates to one of the major reasons I jumped off the Denver Snuffer train, so to speak: which was that Denver never gave a bona fide prophecy (prophet) or revelation (revelator) from the Lord, nor did he translate or relate a vision from the Lord (seer) that seemed applicable or commensurate with his paradigm-shifting/world-changing message - all the details of the revelations that he claimed as the foundation of his message were kept hidden. He dictated nothing (that I could tell) - but rather cast sort of a blanket statement over his 10 talks that they basically came from the Lord. Not very similar to Joseph Smith or the beginnings of the Restoration, in my worthless opinion. I think if the Lord was going to reboot the Restoration, He would have followed the same pattern and done so with at least as much power and significance as when it first began. He did say, several times I might add, that he has seen and visited with the Lord - I would have thought that he would have been able to quote the Lord at least. And, at the same time, Denver seemed to criticize the LDS Leaders for not showing forth spiritual gifts, when he demonstrated none either. This is just my view.

A Sign
March 3, 2013
When the Seed of the Woman was born, a new star appeared in the heavens. In like manner, when the Lion of Judah returns, as with his first coming, there will be a new star seen. All the world will note its appearance and shall be troubled at its meaning. When it makes its appearance, you may know His return is soon upon the world. You may also know by that sign that He has given to me the words I have faithfully taught as His servant.

2 At the same time spake the Lord by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, Go and loose the sackcloth from off thy loins, and put off thy shoe from thy foot. And he did so, walking naked and barefoot.
3 And the Lord said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia;
4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.

I police what I discuss, with the covenants I have made always in mind.

I found a talk given in General Conference by Elder Theodore M. Burton that is so relevant to the point I decided to quote it at length. It can be found in Conference Report, April 1961, Afternoon Meeting, at p.128-129:

Now, brothers and sisters, in our Church in this day and age, when education is becoming more and more popular and more and more necessary,
there is grave danger of intellectual apostasy.

What causes intellectual apostasy? Why do some learned men and women turn from the faith? It is not learning for there are hundreds of us, thousands of us, equally well-trained. It isn't being exposed to different ideas, for we too were exposed to these ideas in the finest universities of the land. Why then, do they lose their testimony? Principally out of vanity and pride. They want to impress others with their learning.

In President Boyd K. Packer’s last General Conference address (April, 2010) he spoke about the success the church has had in distributing the administrative authority of the priesthood throughout the world. But he lamented the failure to have the power of the priesthood spread coequal
with the authority. This may not be so much a failure of the church to discharge responsibility devolving upon it as it may be a failure of those who receive it here to have ever qualified in the first place to bear such priestly power.

Jesef wrote:I thought this worth posting in my DS train jumping thread...

I pray you all love, joy, and peace and blessings in your journey. This is all just my opinion.

One of the beefs I have with Snuffer's Preserve the Restoration/Remnant paradigm and theology is that he and those who follow him seem to cherry pick which sections and verses of the D&C are or were truly effective and the excuse for anything which doesn't seem to agree is corruption or alteration, or the "Lord giving the (wicked benighted early) Saints what they (ignorantly or wickedly) wanted" (like a Church hierarchy and institution). The problem is there are simply too many original and early revelations which contradict what Snuffer is saying it all means or was to supposed to mean, etc. For example, there are too many sections given directly to and through Joseph Smith which organize the Church of Christ as an institution with hierarchy and offices and centralized authority vested in the leaders/positions of that organization, etc. Snuffer's freeform/evangelical/mystical version of the Restoration basically ignores or attempts to invalidate all of these inconvenient revelations.

And this passage is a great example of such. It actually comes from our current D&C 42 which comes from a Revelation given on February 9, 1831, well before any mentions of potential condemnation or being rejected as a Church (e.g. D&C 124, etc.). Check out the Source Notes tab for handwriting and copy info, etc. You have to be a real conspiracy theorist to reject or warp the evidence here:

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSumma ... 421-72&p=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Law?8 Again I say unto you that it shall not be given unto any one to go forth to preach my gospel or to build up my church except they be ordained by some one that hath authority & it is known to the church that he hath authority & have been regularly ordained by the leaders of the church9 & again the Elders priests & teachers of this Church shall teach the scriptures which are in the Bible & the Book of Mormon in the which is the fullness of the Gospel & thou Shalt observe the covenants & church articles10 to do them & <this> Shall be thy teaching<s> & thou shalt be directed by the spirit it shall be given the[e] by the prayer of faith & if ye receive not the spirit ye shall not teach & all this ye shall observe to do as I have commanded concerning your teaching untill the fulness of my Scripture be given11 & as ye Shall lift your voices by the comforter ye shall speak and prophecy as seemeth me good for behold the Comforter knoweth all things & beareth record of the father & the Son

then cometh the high Priest hood which is the greatest of all wherefore it must needs be that one be appointed of the high Priest hood to preside over the Priest hood & he shall be called President of the hood high Priest hood of the Church or in o other high words the Presiding high Priest hood over the high Priesthood of the Church from the same cometh the administring of ordinances & blessings upon the Church by the Laying on of the hands

And again the duty of the president over the office of the Elders is to preside over ninety six Elders & to set in council with them & to <teach> them according to the covenants And again the duty of the president of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church & to be like unto Moses behold here is wisdom yea to be a Seer a revelator a translator & a prophet having all the gifts of God which he bestoweth upon the head of the chuch Wherefore now let every man learn his duly duty & to act in the office in which he is appointed in all diligence he that is slothful shall not be counted worthy to stand & he that learneth not his duty & sheweth himself not approved shall not be counted worthy to stand even so Amen [p. 123]