LDS Freedom Forum

jwharton wrote:

Jesef wrote:JWharton & FreedomForAll, Love and Peace to both of you. I hope you guys can reconcile your differences and grievances. Perhaps you could start a new thread and really get to the bottom of it, if you wish.

The best way I can maintain love and peace is to ignore people like FFA.
Just as the Holy Ghost has the right to depart from those who offend, so do I.

Jesef wrote:JWharton & FreedomForAll, Love and Peace to both of you. I hope you guys can reconcile your differences and grievances. Perhaps you could start a new thread and really get to the bottom of it, if you wish.

Jesef wrote:Sounds like JW has already foe'd you, FFA. I'm wishing both of you the best and kindly asking you guys to take your conversation elsewhere rather than derailing (trains!) this thread.

I know there are arguments against me. There are also reviews written about the things that I have said. There is no criticism made against me, no scriptural exegesis an orthodox member of the Church can advance that I did not advance in argument with the Lord. I have made better scriptural arguments against doing what I’ve done than those that have been leveled at me. I had more scriptural proof to discourage the Lord from asking that I do any of this stuff. I argued with Him! And the Lord has explained to me, using the scriptures, the things I now declare to you. I'm not here on my own errand. If I were doing what I wanted to do today, it wouldn't include any of you! Well, I guess it would include my wife and she is here.

I was a careful and devoted student of the LDS Church. I trusted Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie. I was a disciple of the Brethren. I could quote them, because I was converted to follow them. There was nothing written by Bruce R. McConkie I didn’t own and hadn’t studied. When he came to BYU to criticize Brother Pace, I was in attendance at the devotional. I felt bad for George Pace, but I believed Elder McConkie.

In my faith I was the strictest of true believing Latter-day Saints. Therefore when the Lord appeared to me, He appeared to a faithful, devoted member of the LDS Church. At first I believed He did so because I was a faithful Latter-day Saint! But the Lord knows more than do I. I’ve never won an argument with Him. I labored to reconcile all I knew with all that was asked of me, and found it impossible to please both Christ and the LDS Church. I made my choice. None of you are more devoted to the Brethren today than I once was. You say you are in “the Lord’s true church” and I say unless you know Him, no institution or gathering will substitute. Life eternal comes from knowing Him, not another man. Even if a man is sent to declare Him to you, focus should be on the Lord, not on His messenger. Only a false messenger, who seeks approval, and who hopes for gain, will divert attention from the Lord to himself.62 A true messenger would not dare do so.

Jesef wrote:Still, though, I'd much rather see two guys as sincere and spiritually focused as you win each other over with love and light than end up foes/enemies.

Jesef wrote:Hey, if it's not clear to everyone reading this thread. I don't KNOW what the hell I'm talking about. I love the Lord, I love my family and friends, I love pretty much every person on the planet, I love Denver Snuffer, I love all the good folks who think or believe he's a true prophet/messenger, I love all the mainstream Latter-Day Saints and leaders, I love Pope Francis and all the Catholics, I love little children, I love Muslims and Jews and Indians and Native Americans, and even Europeans, I love Asians and Africans, I love everyone I can think of. I wish to harm no one and to help everyone. My desires are good, despite my limitations.

Some people assume that I have some diabolical agenda by pointing out what I see as contradictions in Denver's teachings or message. I actually don't consider anything I've presented as proof that he's wrong. Plenty of other good leaders and teachers and even prophets, I'm sure, have contradicted themselves and their predecessors. I don't think consistency is some kind of hallmark of truth. I don't think I'm smarter than the Lord or Denver or anyone else. A huge part of me really wanted to see if anyone had any good, reasonable, solid answers to some of them - call them concerns or observations. When someone speaks authoritatively, and has claimed to speak on behalf of God, it raises the standard for the content, in my opinion. It is not unquestionable, untestable, inscrutable. This would be a sign of blind followership and cultism - a huge turnoff to most sincere folks. Honestly, I've been pretty disappointed in the defensive and accusatory responses. If the Remnant can't handle my honest inquiries and observations in a respectful and reasonable and even kind, loving, patient, and gentle manner, how do they plan to win or persuade anyone to consider their strange and wondrous claims? You don't honestly believe that everyone who believes differently than you is somehow spiritually inferior or an anti-Christ, do you?

So maybe one of you can pass this along to the big Snuff himself. He said this in his big long 350 page talk:
http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/ ... monism.pdf
p.201-202

I know there are arguments against me. There are also reviews written about the things that I have said. There is no criticism made against me, no scriptural exegesis an orthodox member of the Church can advance that I did not advance in argument with the Lord. I have made better scriptural arguments against doing what I’ve done than those that have been leveled at me. I had more scriptural proof to discourage the Lord from asking that I do any of this stuff. I argued with Him! And the Lord has explained to me, using the scriptures, the things I now declare to you. I'm not here on my own errand. If I were doing what I wanted to do today, it wouldn't include any of you! Well, I guess it would include my wife and she is here.

I was a careful and devoted student of the LDS Church. I trusted Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie. I was a disciple of the Brethren. I could quote them, because I was converted to follow them. There was nothing written by Bruce R. McConkie I didn’t own and hadn’t studied. When he came to BYU to criticize Brother Pace, I was in attendance at the devotional. I felt bad for George Pace, but I believed Elder McConkie.

In my faith I was the strictest of true believing Latter-day Saints. Therefore when the Lord appeared to me, He appeared to a faithful, devoted member of the LDS Church. At first I believed He did so because I was a faithful Latter-day Saint! But the Lord knows more than do I. I’ve never won an argument with Him. I labored to reconcile all I knew with all that was asked of me, and found it impossible to please both Christ and the LDS Church. I made my choice. None of you are more devoted to the Brethren today than I once was. You say you are in “the Lord’s true church” and I say unless you know Him, no institution or gathering will substitute. Life eternal comes from knowing Him, not another man. Even if a man is sent to declare Him to you, focus should be on the Lord, not on His messenger. Only a false messenger, who seeks approval, and who hopes for gain, will divert attention from the Lord to himself.62 A true messenger would not dare do so.

Maybe he would be so kind as to share some of these great scriptural arguments which the Lord beat him at. Did he do that in his new book, Preserving the Restoration, which apparently contains an extra 200 pages of material? Did his arguments include some of my arguments?

Come, let us reason together. If you can't teach by the power of the Holy Ghost, bearing witness to the truth of your words, then what good is your teaching? That power doesn't seem to respond to people just trying to sound prophetic or sanctimonious or pretending to know stuff that they don't really know.

If I've proven anything by this little experiment of publishing observations that Remnant/Snufferites don't like, and are mostly unwilling to even acknowledge, it is that they are not very good at responding to their beliefs and teachings being questioned or scrutinized, that they are not very good at persuading or winning people over with love and light and truth. And neither am I. :(( :))

This is my closing statement, my farewell. I bid you all Peace and Love, Light and Truth in Christ in your journeys. Good-bye.

Jesef wrote:blah blah blah blah...
http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/ ... monism.pdf
blah blah blah blah

page 255-6 wrote:"No man has seen God at any time in the flesh except quickened by the Spirit," is further explained in the Book of Moses chapter verses and: "For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely? Blessed be the name of my God, for his Spirit hath not altogether withdrawn from me, or else where is thy glory, for it is darkness unto me? And I can judge between thee and God; for God said unto me: Worship God, for him only shalt thou serve."

Lucifer may pretend to be an angel of light. He can deceive by this pretense. But when he appears making this pretense he can be seen by man in our present, mortal state. We do not need to be overshadowed by the glory of God to protect and transfigure us when the deceiver appears. One of the keys to be able to distinguish between an appearance of the Lord, and the appearance of the adversary, is that the adversary may come clothed in white, and may appear to be an angel, but it does not require transfiguration to be in his presence. On the other hand, in order to be in the presence of God, it requires an alteration in the natural man. This is why when Paul saw God he wrote, “whether in the body or out of the body, I don't know.” It is as real, it is as physical and as tangible as this podium.[knocks on the podium for effect] However, the alteration of the man makes what was physical cease to be the same as it was before. Despite the change, because it is “physical” to the one experiencing it, Moses declared God’s glory was upon him and he was “transfigured” by God.

Jesef wrote:If I've proven anything by this little experiment of publishing observations that Remnant/Snufferites don't like, and are mostly unwilling to even acknowledge, it is that they are not very good at responding to their beliefs and teachings being questioned or scrutinized, that they are not very good at persuading or winning people over with love and light and truth. And neither am I. :(( :))

briznian wrote:

Jesef wrote:blah blah blah blah...
http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/ ... monism.pdf
blah blah blah blah

page 255-6 wrote:"No man has seen God at any time in the flesh except quickened by the Spirit," is further explained in the Book of Moses chapter verses and: "For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely? Blessed be the name of my God, for his Spirit hath not altogether withdrawn from me, or else where is thy glory, for it is darkness unto me? And I can judge between thee and God; for God said unto me: Worship God, for him only shalt thou serve."

Lucifer may pretend to be an angel of light. He can deceive by this pretense. But when he appears making this pretense he can be seen by man in our present, mortal state. We do not need to be overshadowed by the glory of God to protect and transfigure us when the deceiver appears. One of the keys to be able to distinguish between an appearance of the Lord, and the appearance of the adversary, is that the adversary may come clothed in white, and may appear to be an angel, but it does not require transfiguration to be in his presence. On the other hand, in order to be in the presence of God, it requires an alteration in the natural man. This is why when Paul saw God he wrote, “whether in the body or out of the body, I don't know.” It is as real, it is as physical and as tangible as this podium.[knocks on the podium for effect] However, the alteration of the man makes what was physical cease to be the same as it was before. Despite the change, because it is “physical” to the one experiencing it, Moses declared God’s glory was upon him and he was “transfigured” by God.

Jesef wrote:If I've proven anything by this little experiment of publishing observations that Remnant/Snufferites don't like, and are mostly unwilling to even acknowledge, it is that they are not very good at responding to their beliefs and teachings being questioned or scrutinized, that they are not very good at persuading or winning people over with love and light and truth. And neither am I. :(( :))

Not true. You asked everyone who agreed with him to NOT post. For a large part they did. So basically you are claiming victory arguing with...yourself.

jwharton wrote: He is talking here about his experience on THEIR forum.
The one that he was kicked off of because they wouldn't address his issues.

briznian wrote:

jwharton wrote: He is talking here about his experience on THEIR forum.
The one that he was kicked off of because they wouldn't address his issues.

Jesef has not been accurate in his portrayal of the events on that forum.

jwharton wrote:

briznian wrote:

jwharton wrote: He is talking here about his experience on THEIR forum.
The one that he was kicked off of because they wouldn't address his issues.

Jesef has not been accurate in his portrayal of the events on that forum.

I wouldn't know since I wasn't there and wasn't a witness to it all.
But, if he was treated similar to what I just saw, I'd be inclined to believe him.

briznian wrote:

jwharton wrote:

briznian wrote:

jwharton wrote: He is talking here about his experience on THEIR forum.
The one that he was kicked off of because they wouldn't address his issues.

Jesef has not been accurate in his portrayal of the events on that forum.

I wouldn't know since I wasn't there and wasn't a witness to it all.
But, if he was treated similar to what I just saw, I'd be inclined to believe him.

He was removed from that forum because he tends pick fights. Just like he did here With his online tantrum.

Anyway, his initial question was over the "in the body" language used in the scriptures and repeated by Denver. I have provided the information he was asking for. I doubt he will find it sufficient though because he began with the conclusion and never had anything in mind except for fighting.

jwharton wrote: Or he just felt his points were being ignored or brushed away.
I know what it feels like to be on his side of things, having been kicked out of groups before myself.
People eventually find it easier to misconstrue someone as contentious than address their issues.

briznian wrote:

jwharton wrote: Or he just felt his points were being ignored or brushed away.
I know what it feels like to be on his side of things, having been kicked out of groups before myself.
People eventually find it easier to misconstrue someone as contentious than address their issues.

All of his posts are in the public domain. You are welcome to search them out. Here, on Tim Malone's site or the other forum.

As an aside, people tend to couch their disruptions as "just asking questions"/"seeking truth". I never saw anyone say "I just want everyone to agree with my preconceived notions".

jwharton wrote:

briznian wrote:

jwharton wrote: Or he just felt his points were being ignored or brushed away.
I know what it feels like to be on his side of things, having been kicked out of groups before myself.
People eventually find it easier to misconstrue someone as contentious than address their issues.

All of his posts are in the public domain. You are welcome to search them out. Here, on Tim Malone's site or the other forum.

As an aside, people tend to couch their disruptions as "just asking questions"/"seeking truth". I never saw anyone say "I just want everyone to agree with my preconceived notions".

Again, I know what it feels like to be on his side of things.
I don't need to go there to see it as you are doing what he complained of here.
I've seen plenty of times where people refuse to understand me and then accuse me of being what you accuse of him here.
Look, you already twisted his words to accuse him of arguing with himself to try and make him look foolish.
You deserve zero credibility for this obvious blunder on your part, which carries over to who and what you defend.

jwharton wrote:Now I realize all over again why I had you on my foe list for a while. Keep it up and you'll be right back there in a jiffy.

briznian wrote:

jwharton wrote:

briznian wrote:

jwharton wrote: Or he just felt his points were being ignored or brushed away.
I know what it feels like to be on his side of things, having been kicked out of groups before myself.
People eventually find it easier to misconstrue someone as contentious than address their issues.

All of his posts are in the public domain. You are welcome to search them out. Here, on Tim Malone's site or the other forum.

As an aside, people tend to couch their disruptions as "just asking questions"/"seeking truth". I never saw anyone say "I just want everyone to agree with my preconceived notions".

Again, I know what it feels like to be on his side of things.
I don't need to go there to see it as you are doing what he complained of here.
I've seen plenty of times where people refuse to understand me and then accuse me of being what you accuse of him here.
Look, you already twisted his words to accuse him of arguing with himself to try and make him look foolish.
You deserve zero credibility for this obvious blunder on your part, which carries over to who and what you defend.

(Referencing Freedomforall)

jwharton wrote:Now I realize all over again why I had you on my foe list for a while. Keep it up and you'll be right back there in a jiffy.

I can't imagine why people find you disagreeable...

jwharton wrote:

freedomforall wrote:So I guess all that any of us can do now is get rid of our scriptures, even though God says the "FULNESS" of the gospel is in the BoM, and give up even trying to get back to Father...because we're all going to hell no matter what we read in the BoM about faith, hope and steadfastness in Christ, and being perfected in him during our life. At least this is what I think your message implies. According to the content no one is exempt, so it must include the author of the post above. I hope all goes well.

jwharton wrote:

freedomforall wrote:

jwharton wrote:

freedomforall wrote:So I guess all that any of us can do now is get rid of our scriptures, even though God says the "FULNESS" of the gospel is in the BoM, and give up even trying to get back to Father...because we're all going to hell no matter what we read in the BoM about faith, hope and steadfastness in Christ, and being perfected in him during our life. At least this is what I think your message implies. According to the content no one is exempt, so it must include the author of the post above. I hope all goes well.

Are you responding to my comment?
If so, your reading comprehension skills are sorely lacking.
Sounds to me like you are just trying to smear and discredit what I have shared.
The nature of your response strikes me as coming from someone described in Jacob chapter 6 as stiffnecked, gainsaying and hard hearted.
Apparently you aren't up to the task of confronting the realities the Book of Mormon talks about happening in the latter days. I simply do not get all wrapped up on the negative stuff and being fanatical about it.
For example, all of its warnings are for those who profess it is true, which warnings corroborate what I shared above. Yes, but you clump everyone together as if we're all in jeopardy. Is this clear enough?
Do you think the holy church of God being polluted, while those doing so are crying all is well, will be without significant consequences? Tell me, just who are you as to whom is crying all is well? Only people on this forum? Take your blinders off, please.
Yes, we have the fullness of the Gospel but people have twisted it into refried orthodox Christianity with a Mormon flare. What people? Or is this a blanket "one size fits all" claim?.
The Book of Mormon prophesies that the Gentiles shall reject the fullness of the Gospel and this prophecy has come true. Provide a % Your paragraph above doesn't provide much hope.
Do you think this prophecy coming true will also be without significant consequences? No, especially the % that are guilty.
Are you prepared to go through the time of this all playing out because you currently are. We all are.
We are still under condemnation and have been for well over 100 years, yet most act like we are nigh unto perfection. Where do you fit in? Believe it or not, but many people are perfect in Christ within the church. They have and do apply Moroni 10:32,33 Do you want to take the risk of denying this?
Yet, if you bring up this truth you get reactions much like yours full of pride and denial instead of humility and recognition. You're a funny man. Why are you not humble enough to accept other than your own paradigm as having viability? Further, why do you clump everyone into the same mold? What was this about clarification?
We are so far away from the fullness of the Gospel spoken of in the Book of Mormon. Just who is we, you and the mouse in your pocket? Some of us are trying awfully hard to get back home. Are you out to ruin this belief and effort with and by them in causing good saints to believe they're under condemnation? How about some compassion and leeway?
And, our Mormon politicians are some of the worst at taking us away from it.
We are infested with the spirits the Book of Mormon warns us about.

So, I am not saying forget the Book of Mormon, I'm saying lay aside your self-righteous pride and take its warnings seriously. See what I mean? You earn no points in this kind of crap, speaking of things you know nothing about, but using insults as fact used to back your narrow views, and the only process by which you use to see that you remain top dog on the forum. Please, please do not expect me to be so nice after you going out of your way to insult and berate. Not very becoming from someone judging everyone else as under condemnation, now is it? Or are your insults somehow bypassed rendering you unspotted and perfect?
Of course I am not exempt and I cry out in my heart day in and day out longing for the time more LDS will awaken to our awful situation. You just may succeed by using honey instead of vinagar.
Sadly, reactions like yours to take what someone says pleading for recognition of what will humble us just twist it into nonsense. Sadly, this is a two way street. Deal with it.
The same kind of nonsense the people conjured up in their own minds to justify trying to kill Samuel the Lamanite and others. What side of the wall would you have been on? The way you call be people names you disagree with isn't saying much for the good side.
I speak of humbling ourselves and getting to grips with the reality of our awful situation and you say I am reviling the scriptures. Read your own posts as if someone else wrote it. This would be a good start for you to see just how you envision people and the one's that disagree with you.
Now I realize all over again why I had you on my foe list for a while. Keep it up and you'll be right back there in a jiffy.

What stops you? Quit talking about it. Besides I'm out to learn things from people that aren't afraid to keep a civil tongue in their head. Name calling and mind attacks is not in your favor, not by a long shot.
Yes, comprehension skills are needed. This is what makes for good conversation. But let's face it, a one sided view of how the church is under so much condemnation to the point that good, righteous people are going to become SOP's by just being a member with blood, is simply too much to excogitate over. Why not read yoiur own post and see the problem instead of using name calling to hold onto your position as if you never make mistakes in your understanding and reasoning skills. It takes good comprehension to realize that that theory just can't be right, and your gloating over it is even worse. If it were, we would have no further need for scriptures that tell us emphatically that by seeking Christ, keeping the commandments and living righteously, having faith, hope and good works...a man can and will go back to Father, especially when God, himself, declares it. To clump all the saints into a nice neat little package and stamping "defective" on it, is pathetic. To think that the D&C no matter the chronological order of scripture, now somehow negates all of the promises given the saints in previous scripture...scripture that we are adamantly told to study and internalize, is not in line with current views of condemnation is an act nothing more than throwing the baby out with the bath water.
There are plenty of people having a different view and understanding of things not matching yoyur paragigm. Maybe you should stop criticizing and learn from others, just like your expecting everything you say to be truth, and having no tolerance of any disagreement. What are you afraid of, being wrong yourself?

If you believe me to be wrong about something, I welcome respectful correction.
What I don't welcome is having people do what I pointed out that you did.
Which as far as I can tell was to deliberately run to a foolish conclusion to smear what I said.
And, because you made no acknowledgement of my grievance for doing this....

You are back on my foe list.

I have no interest in attempting respectful dialog with someone like you.

jwharton wrote:

Jesef wrote:JWharton & FreedomForAll, Love and Peace to both of you. I hope you guys can reconcile your differences and grievances. Perhaps you could start a new thread and really get to the bottom of it, if you wish.

The best way I can maintain love and peace is to ignore people like FFA.
Just as the Holy Ghost has the right to depart from those who offend, so do I.