LDS Freedom Forum

Jesef wrote:See if you can spot it...

http://denversnuffer.com/2013/10/i-will ... -a-church/

I Will Not Start A Church

October 18, 2013 Denver Off Thoughts
Apparently the reason the church is now interviewing and discouraging some of those attending the talks I have given is driven by the false expectation that I intend to start a church. Let me be clear: I will not start a church. Period. Won’t. Not now. Not later. Never.

There is nothing about starting a church that appeals in the least to me. To the extent one is needed, we already have one.

Any organization formed in this world must comply with laws of man. Tax issues, regulatory issues, and potential legislative intrusions are always part of the life of an institution. Pressure from political and economic interests abound. Before long, no matter how noble in origin, this world erodes and later controls the institutions here.

A “strong man” model is the opposite of Zion. A controlling hierarchy where some are over, and others under control perverts the essential equality that must prevail in order for Zion to exist with one heart, one mind, and all things in common. From the moment Brigham Young began to envision the church as a platform to support his kingly ambitions until today, the church has been a temptation to practice priestcraft.

The church can dismiss any thought I have that ambition. I don’t.

When religion is reduced to a market and business interests drive programs, I find it repugnant. The idea that you identify under served areas and build temples to drive larger temple recommend participation to produce a cash stream may excite business leaders, but it repels me. That the church now recaptures the cost of building a new temple in two to three years after building one is little more than priestcraft. The Jews used their temple as a place of commerce. The Latter-day Saints have turned the temples themselves into merchandise. That is NOT my ambition. It causes me to mourn, not to become excited that I might join in the feeding frenzy upon the sheep.

I am just not like you. Not at all. I will not become like you. You keep the Mormon religion as your product line and never give another thought to me trying to “poach” your paying members. I WILL NOT lead another church. Ever. Period.

The break off movements led by the carnal and ambitious polygamists are even more repugnant to me. They oppress their women and have descended into child sexual exploitation with disappointing regularity. The idea I want to follow in that distasteful abomination is even more offensive than thinking I want to be an LDS leader.

Read what I’ve written. Listen to my talks. You needn’t think there is a hidden agenda. There isn’t and won’t be one. I am so transparent that even the church court information has been made public.

And then this is from the transcript from a 1-on-1 interview with Tim Malone shortly before the Grand Mesa get together:

http://3tcm.net/a-visit-with-denver-snu ... script.pdf

Question Ten: I’d like to end this first section of questions with something near and dear to my heart and that is the pursuit of personal spiritual communication with the Lord. I have delighted in your focus and emphasis from your first book that we can and should seek [an] audience with the Lord. You have declared He is willing to come to us in a literal, physical sense and that we can come into His presence, embrace Him and be taught by Him personally. If there is anything that gives more power to your teachings than your declaration you have seen Him, I don’t know what it is.
In my own pursuit of an audience with the Savior I rely on a sacred dream received shortly after I read The Second Comforter for the first time. Without going into any detail, the dream satisfied my desire to know when I could expect to enter into the presence of the Lord. In interpreting my dream, which I prayed to understand, it is not soon. I have years of work ahead of me – years of faithful and diligent effort to do as the Lord asks. And He has asked things of me, some of them very difficult. I note some people looking to unusual sources for inspiration and help – Shamans, questionable scripture, etc. I know you’re asked this all the time, but if you don’t mind, what counsel would you give for my readers who are anxiously seeking an audience with the Lord, and have become weary with the length of the process?

ANSWER (Denver): The fact is that it requires patience, and patience is an absolute, necessary virtue that even Christ was required to accomplish. He thought He was ready at age 12, but it was 18 years later before He finally had the day come when He was allowed to begin His ministry. He wanted to be about His Father's business, and His mother told Him get back home.
There are those who, (including our Lord Himself), find the most difficult virtue of all is patience. It was 27 years in the coming for me. Godliness is a gradual thing. Even what is revealed is not necessarily going to be immediately understood, as that last talk I gave mentioned. It's one thing to receive, it's another thing to comprehend, and it still another order of magnitude difficult to teach. They are a gradual process, and to think that you can leap...that's remarkable because I don't see a precedent in scripture where that was the case. What did the apostle Paul take? 14 years from the encounter on the road to Damascus before he began to preach?
It took 40 years from the day Enoch was ordained at 25, before he walked with God at 65, and that was remarkably quick accomplishment.
Moses 40 years in the wilderness before he had his encounter with God at age 80. If you think you can rush it, you're probably going to be deceived.

Question Eleven: May I share something? This is from a fellowship community member in Arizona. It’s called “River Church.” I’d like to know your impressions after hearing it if this is what you had in mind when you talked about organizing:

“What a beautiful day. The water was so clear I could see the bottom. The sun was bright and warm. I arrived at the Waters of Mormon about 4pm. As I walked down the bluff, I could see many people going in the water. So many were gathered at the edge of the water cheering and clapping. It was a magnificent scene for sure.
“As I arrived, so many of you greeted me with warmth and kindness. It was like the first time walking through the veil into the celestial room with loved ones there to greet the newly endowed. Such a feeling of peace and acceptance. Thank you. I counted about 33 members of our community there.
“The most wonderful part of the afternoon was right after the bread and wine were blessed and passed. There was such a wonderful feeling in the group. It was so quiet, just children playing in the distance and toddlers cooing. The rest of the group sat earnestly as the waters rushed by.
“Right then I was in the moment. I pushed myself to take mental note. A wonderful experience to hold in my memory. For all my life I will remember that wonderful moment. This morning a word came to me to describe the feeling of that moment: ‘solemn’. I hope many more of you will join us in the future. I love river church.”

ANSWER (Denver): To me the description sounds heavenly. It's in nature, it is worshipping God, it describes fellowship and worship both of which are godly.
It is necessary to allow creative solutions to be independently functioning among different groups. There was not a single "New Testament Church." There wasn't one. There were Churches. Each of the 12 and Paul, established different Churches with markedly different emphasis.
-Petrine Churches emphasized authority and order.
-Johannine Churches emphasized love.
-Pauline Churches emphasized both evangelical fervor and Gentile participation.
-Jacobian Churches emphasized charity.
They were all adapted to teach of Christ. There wasn't a central, hierarchical, command and control in the New Testament era.
In fact there's a book, and the title of the book really says it all: The Churches the Apostles Left Behind, by S.S. Raymond E. Brown. The idea of a universal or a "Catholic" Church was imposed some centuries later. When it was founded it adopted the title "Catholic" or "universal" in order to try and achieve a missing ingredient of uniformity in the early Christian diversity. The fellowships ought to have diversity.
We should not think it is impossible to have godliness with diversity, nor should we assume that a one- size-fits-all solution is going to work among different groups. There are some groups in which there are a lot of children, and the emphasis needs to be directed toward the needs of the children. There are some groups that are primarily childless adults. They need to emphasize what suits them. Every one of them needs to adapt to whatever the local conditions are, and have the freedom to do that as was once the case with the early Christian and Restoration Churches.
At the beginning of the Restoration they were called Churches, plural, they were not called a Church, singular. They were "societies of believers" in different locations and they governed themselves differently and locally.

Question Twelve: Daryl’s group is just one of dozens of communities organized in a tithing and fellowship group. However, as far as I can tell, most of these fellowships are only along the Mormon Corridor, specifically in the areas where you presented the lectures. I know some have created webpages
to help interested people connect to one another in a specific geographic region. In my case in Southern California, our fellowship is very, very loose with participants ranging from Alaska to San Diego.
I see the movement growing. I imagine you get a lot of emails from people asking about organizing and fellowshipping. You gave good counsel in the Mesa lecture when you suggested our time would be well spent if we did nothing more than read the scriptures – printed version – to one another and pray together. Will you share a little more about why fellowships are so important in bringing unity to our churches?

ANSWER (Denver): We cannot bear one another's burdens without fellowship with one another. And bearing one another's burdens presumes that you know what the burdens are that someone else carries. Which means that I have been patient enough, I have been attentive enough, I have been friendly enough, and I have been trusted enough that I can find out what the burden is that they carry.
I have a very good friend who I went to elementary, junior high, and high school with, and have kept in touch with him for many years. He has recently contracted a terminal form of cancer. He called me to talk about that, without telling his family, without telling his neighbors, without telling his friends, because he and I have a friendship that is built upon the kind of trust that allows me to share that burden with him, because of the relationship. There was nothing odd to me about him confiding in me. He has been a lifelong friend.
We are supposed to help one another get through this ordeal of mortality. Mortality is an ordeal for every one of us. It is not easy. Even the people you envy, if you were living inside their world, you would find that they have burdens that they are carrying as well. Fellowshipping allows us to bears one another's burdens, and bearing one another's burdens implies a whole universe of connectivity, trust, confidence, friendship and affection between one another, before you get to the point where you even know what their burdens are.
But that is supposed to be a blessing and part of what it means to worship together. Worshiping together by assisting one another, allows all of us to feel a great part of what it is that Christ is and does. It allows us to know who we worship, and allows us to know how to worship Him, and it allows us to know what makes us one with one another. (See D&C 93:19.)
Now it's really hard to accomplish that across state lines, but it still can be done. The example I use of my friend, he lives in Idaho and I live in Utah. He and I have spent a lot of time on the phone since I've learned of the illness about a month ago. That is because I care, and because he needs to talk to someone, and he finds it a relief to be able to do so with me. It can be done across state lines. It can be done across any barriers.
All of us are victims of institutional abuse. Many of us can sense it when the slightest hint of abuse appears. One recent writer on your blog has identified it as "paternalism." and that's not an inappropriate designation for it. We should learn how to be loving and equal with one another.
The idea of equality is resisted by a lot of skeptics who accuse me of wanting authority and control, when I despise control. But I absolutely welcome fellowship, equality and worship with one another. This isn't easy. But it is godly to pursue.
We are going to make mistakes. There are going to be a lot of institutional habits holding over. We will want to control others to "whip this into shape." The idea of a whip...when Christ resorted to the scourge it was to drive them out. He didn't drive them in, nor did He send them out to organize them. He drove them out to keep them away. If we are going to whip anything, we are going to drive people away.
We would be better off practicing the kind of patience and kindness that persuades people gently. We should all realize that, in terms of Mormonism, almost everyone is a refugee suffering post-religious trauma syndrome. People are going to think you are also abusive. They are going to think you want to use them as a tool for another powerbase. They will think someone wants to use them, and it is a reasonable thought.
The idea that there's someone who doesn't want to use them or abuse them, but who wants to fellowship with them and help them bear a burden is a foreign idea for most Mormons. But that's the idea of Christianity at its core, and that's what really alien in this world. We need to bring that back again.

"Did" "Denver Snuffer" "start" "a" "church"? Did he lawyer this or what? I hope his followers don't respond, because they would no doubt say he, Denver, didn't technically "start" anything (exhibit A), rather the Lord started it or some such, and it is not "a church" technically, or rather a 501c3 or some such, or rather it is plural "churches" you see (exhibit B and possibly C). He didn't lawyer this - he just semantically manipulated it for spiritually superior people with "ears to hear" and "eyes to see". Or it's just quite simply a flat contradiction/lie now caught on historical record.

Jesef wrote:I am okay with your being perplexed by my views. I'm perplexed by some of my own. My position or paradigm still allows for several possibilities when it comes to Joseph and Brigham. Why do you wish to know?

p.25
[It's always the servants, always angels who do this work. They do the gathering.]
p.25
“But the father said to his servants, [Again it's the angels who do this.]
p.53-54
[D&C 84] Verse 36: “For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;” I want to suggest that throughout scripture, almost invariably, the word "servants" is referring to angelic ministrants. So angels minister, that would be Aaronic. Then Christ ministers, that would be sons of Moses. Verse 37: “And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;”

p.90-91
"For he that receiveth my servants receive me." [I suggested in Centerville that the word "servants" in this context meant angels. And “angel,” the word is derived from a Greek word that simply means "messenger." The messenger can't be on their own errand. They have to have a message that is being brought from the Lord. Therefore if the message originates with the Lord and the message is delivered by a messenger, it does not matter if the one delivering the message is a mortal. We find in the Book of Mormon where Jacob was told what he was to preach by an angel the night before he taught. (See 2 Ne. 10: 3.) King Benjamin said his sermon was based on what the angel told him to teach, after awakening him at night. (See Mosiah 3: 2-23.) In that context, both Jacob and King Benjamin were angels, or messengers with a message from God.2 Therefore, as long as they bear a message from the Lord, they fit the definition.] "For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me." [That is, if the content of the message comes from the voice of God, and it is coming to you from Him, and is authentically His message, and you receive it as if from His own mouth, then you have received from Him His voice. But it doesn't end there.]

Hel 5:29,32
29 And it came to pass that there came a voice as if it were above the cloud of darkness, saying: Repent ye, repent ye, and seek no more to destroy my servants [Lehi & Nephi, not angels] whom I have sent unto you to declare good tidings.
32 And behold the voice came again, saying: Repent ye, repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand; and seek no more to destroy my servants [again, Lehi & Nephi, not angels]. And it came to pass that the earth shook again, and the walls trembled.

D&C 1:6,24,38
6 Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants [not angels], and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them [same servants previously referred to, JS & brethren] to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth.
24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness [obviously not angels and therefore applicable to term in whole section], after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants [not angels, see verse 6 & 24], it is the same.

D&C 5:11
11 And in addition to your testimony, the testimony of three of my servants [Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, & Martin Harris], whom I shall call and ordain, unto whom I will show these things, and they shall go forth with my words that are given through you.

D&C 27:8
8 Which John I have sent unto you, my servants, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Oliver Cowdery, to ordain you unto the first priesthood which you have received, that you might be called and ordained even as Aaron;

D&C 32:2
2 And that which I have appointed unto him is that he shall go with my servants, Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer, Jun., into the wilderness among the Lamanites.

D&C 33:1
1 Behold, I say unto you, my servants Ezra and Northrop, open ye your ears and hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, whose word is quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of the joints and marrow, soul and spirit; and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

D&C 36:5
5 That as many as shall come before my servants Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith, Jun., embracing this calling and commandment, shall be ordained and sent forth to preach the everlasting gospel among the nations--

D&C 42:4,63
4 Behold, verily I say unto you, I give unto you this first commandment, that ye shall go forth in my name, every one of you, excepting my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon.
63 And behold, it shall come to pass that my servants [not angels] shall be sent forth to the east and to the west, to the north and to the south.

D&C 43:25,30
25 How oft have I called upon you by the mouth of my servants, [not angels as distinguished by the rest of the list] and by the ministering of angels, and by mine own voice, and by the voice of thunderings, and by the voice of lightnings, and by the voice of tempests, and by the voice of earthquakes, and great hailstorms, and by the voice of famines and pestilences of every kind, and by the great sound of a trump, and by the voice of judgment, and by the voice of mercy all the day long, and by the voice of glory and honor and the riches of eternal life, and would have saved you with an everlasting salvation, but ye would not!
30 For the great Millennium, of which I have spoken by the mouth of my servants [not angels, but rather Joseph & brethren], shall come.

D&C 44:1
1 Behold, thus saith the Lord unto you my servants, it is expedient in me that the elders of my church should be called together, from the east and from the west, and from the north and from the south, by letter or some other way.

D&C 49:1,3-4
1 HEARKEN unto my word, my servants Sidney, and Parley, and Leman; for behold, verily I say unto you, that I give unto you a commandment that you shall go and preach my gospel which ye have received, even as ye have received it, unto the Shakers.
3 Wherefore, I send you, my servants Sidney and Parley, to preach the gospel unto them.
4 And my servant Leman shall be ordained unto this work, that he may reason with them, not according to that which he has received of them, but according to that which shall be taught him by you my servants; and by so doing I will bless him, otherwise he shall not prosper.

D&C 50:38
38 And also my servant John Corrill, or as many of my servants as are ordained unto this office, and let them labor in the vineyard; and let no man hinder them doing that which I have appointed unto them--

D&C 52:3,24-32,35,41
3 Wherefore, verily I say unto you, let my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon take their journey as soon as preparations can be made to leave their homes, and journey to the land of Missouri.
24 And again, let my servants Edward Partridge and Martin Harris take their journey with my servants Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith, Jun.
25 Let my servants David Whitmer and Harvey Whitlock also take their journey, and preach by the way unto this same land.
26 And let my servants Parley P. Pratt and Orson Pratt take their journey, and preach by the way, even unto this same land.
27 And let my servants Solomon Hancock and Simeon Carter also take their journey unto this same land, and preach by the way.
28 Let my servants Edson Fuller and Jacob Scott also take their journey.
29 Let my servants Levi W. Hancock and Zebedee Coltrin also take their journey.
30 Let my servants Reynolds Cahoon and Samuel H. Smith also take their journey.
31 Let my servants Wheeler Baldwin and William Carter also take their journey.
32 And let my servants Newel Knight and Selah J. Griffin both be ordained, and also take their journey.
35 And again, I say unto you, let my servants Joseph Wakefield and Solomon Humphrey take their journey into the eastern lands;
41 And again, let my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon and Edward Partridge take with them a recommend from the church. And let there be one obtained for my servant Oliver Cowdery also.

D&C 53:5
5 And again, verily I say unto you, you shall take your journey with my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon.

D&C 5:5
5 And again, verily I say unto you, for this cause you shall take your journey with my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, that you may be planted in the land of your inheritance to do this work.

D&C 56:5-6
5 Wherefore, I revoke the commandment which was given unto [/b]my servants Thomas B. Marsh and Ezra Thayre, and give a new commandment unto my servant Thomas, that he shall take up his journey speedily to the land of Missouri, and my servant Selah J. Griffin shall also go with him.
6 For behold, I revoke the commandment which was given unto my servants Selah J. Griffin and Newel Knight,[/b] in consequence of the stiffneckedness of my people which are in Thompson, and their rebellions.

D&C 58:58
58 And let a conference meeting be called; and after that let my servants Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith, Jun., return, and also Oliver Cowdery with them, to accomplish the residue of the work which I have appointed unto them in their own land, and the residue as shall be ruled by the conferences.

D&C 60:6
6 And from thence let my servants Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Oliver Cowdery, take their journey for Cincinnati;

D&C 61:9,23,30
9 But now, verily I say, it behooveth me that ye should part. Wherefore let my servants Sidney Gilbert and William W. Phelps take their former company, and let them take their journey in haste that they may fill their mission, and through faith they shall overcome;
23 And now, concerning my servants Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Oliver Cowdery, let them come not again upon the waters, save it be upon the canal, while journeying unto their homes; or in other words they shall not come upon the waters to journey, save upon the canal.
30 And again, verily I say unto you, my servants Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Oliver Cowdery, shall not open their mouths in the congregations of the wicked until they arrive at Cincinnati;

D&C 63:65
65 Let my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, seek them a home, as they are taught through prayer by the Spirit.

D&C 64:26
26 And it is not meet that my servants Newel K. Whitney and Sidney Gilbert, should sell their store and their possessions here; for this is not wisdom until the residue of the church, which remaineth in this place, shall go up unto the land of Zion.

D&C 68:5
5 Behold, this is the promise of the Lord unto you, O ye my servants [Joseph & brethren being addressed].

D&C 69:5
5 And also, my servants who are abroad in the earth should send forth the accounts of their stewardships to the land of Zion;

D&C 70:15
15 Now, this commandment I give unto my servants for their benefit while they remain, for a manifestation of my blessings upon their heads, and for a reward of their diligence and for their security;

D&C 71:1
1 Behold, thus saith the Lord unto you my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, that the time has verily come that it is necessary and expedient in me that you should open your mouths in proclaiming my gospel, the things of the kingdom, expounding the mysteries thereof out of the scriptures, according to that portion of Spirit and power which shall be given unto you, even as I will.

D&C 72:20
20 And again, let my servants who are appointed as stewards over the literary concerns of my church have claim for assistance upon the bishop or bishops in all things--

D&C 73:3
3 Now, verily I say unto you my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, saith the Lord, it is expedient to translate again;

D&C 82:1,11
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, my servants, that inasmuch as you have forgiven one another your trespasses, even so I, the Lord, forgive you.
11 Therefore, verily I say unto you, that it is expedient for my servants Edward Partridge and Newel K. Whitney, A. Sidney Gilbert and Sidney Rigdon, and my servants Joseph Smith, and John Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery, and W. W. Phelps and Martin Harris to be bound together by a bond and covenant that cannot be broken by transgression, except judgment shall immediately follow, in your several stewardships--

D&C 84:36,117
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
117 And verily I say unto you, the rest of my servants go ye forth as your circumstances shall permit, in your several callings, unto the great and notable cities and villages, reproving the world in righteousness of all their unrighteous and ungodly deeds, setting forth clearly and understandingly the desolation of abomination in the last days.

D&C 86:1
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servants, concerning the parable of the wheat and of the tares:

D&C 93:52
52 And let my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Frederick G. Williams make haste also, and it shall be given them even according to the prayer of faith; and inasmuch as you keep my sayings you shall not be confounded in this world, nor in the world to come.

D&C 94:14
14 And on the first and second lots on the north shall my servants Reynolds Cahoon and Jared Carter receive their inheritances--

D&C 95:10
10 Nevertheless, my servants sinned a very grievous sin; and contentions arose in the school of the prophets; which was very grievous unto me, saith your Lord; therefore I sent them forth to be chastened.

D&C 100:14
14 Thy brethren, my servants Orson Hyde and John Gould, are in my hands; and inasmuch as they keep my commandments they shall be saved.

D&C 101:55
55 And the lord of the vineyard said unto one of his servants: Go and gather together the residue of my servants and take all the strength of mine house, which are my warriors, my young men, and they that are of middle age also among all my servants, who are the strength of mine house, save those only whom I have appointed to tarry; [seems like a pretty obvious reference to Joseph and Zion’s Camp]

D&C 104:4,29
4 Therefore, inasmuch as some of my servants have not kept the commandment, but have broken the covenant through covetousness, and with feigned words, I have cursed them with a very sore and grievous curse.
29 And let my servants Frederick G. Williams and Oliver Cowdery have the printing office and all things that pertain unto it.

D&C 108:4
4 Wait patiently until the solemn assembly shall be called of my servants then you shall be remembered with the first of mine elders, and receive right by ordination with the rest of mine elders whom I have chosen.

D&C 110:8-9
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants [obviously mortals, not angels], and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.

D&C 12:1
1 VERILY thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Thomas: I have heard thy prayers; and thine alms have come up as a memorial before me, in behalf of those, thy brethren, who were chosen to bear testimony of my name and to send it abroad among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, and ordained through the instrumentality of my servants,

D&C 117:16
16 And again, verily I say unto you, let all my servants in the land of Kirtland remember the Lord their God, and mine house also, to keep and preserve it holy, and to overthrow the moneychangers in mine own due time, saith the Lord. Even so. Amen.

D&C 121:18
18 And those who swear falsely against my servants that they might bring them into bondage and death--

D&C 124:8,45,118
8 And that I may visit them in the day of visitation, when I shall unveil the face of my covering, to appoint the portion of the oppressor among hypocrites, where there is gnashing of teeth, if they reject my servants and my testimony which I have revealed unto them.
45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people [obviously mortal leaders], behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place.
118 And hearken unto the counsel of my servants Joseph, and Hyrum, and William Law, and unto the authorities which I have called to lay the foundation of Zion; and it shall be well with him forever and ever. Even so. Amen.

D&C 133:30,71
30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.
71 Behold, and lo, there are none to deliver you; for ye obeyed not my voice when I called to you out of the heavens; ye believed not my servants and when they were sent unto you ye received them not.

Jesef wrote:My Servants

http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/ ... monism.pdf

p.25
[It's always the servants, always angels who do this work. They do the gathering.]
p.25
“But the father said to his servants, [Again it's the angels who do this.]
p.53-54
[D&C 84] Verse 36: “For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;” I want to suggest that throughout scripture, almost invariably, the word "servants" is referring to angelic ministrants. So angels minister, that would be Aaronic. Then Christ ministers, that would be sons of Moses. Verse 37: “And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;”

p.90-91
"For he that receiveth my servants receive me." [I suggested in Centerville that the word "servants" in this context meant angels. And “angel,” the word is derived from a Greek word that simply means "messenger." The messenger can't be on their own errand. They have to have a message that is being brought from the Lord. Therefore if the message originates with the Lord and the message is delivered by a messenger, it does not matter if the one delivering the message is a mortal. We find in the Book of Mormon where Jacob was told what he was to preach by an angel the night before he taught. (See 2 Ne. 10: 3.) King Benjamin said his sermon was based on what the angel told him to teach, after awakening him at night. (See Mosiah 3: 2-23.) In that context, both Jacob and King Benjamin were angels, or messengers with a message from God.2 Therefore, as long as they bear a message from the Lord, they fit the definition.] "For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me." [That is, if the content of the message comes from the voice of God, and it is coming to you from Him, and is authentically His message, and you receive it as if from His own mouth, then you have received from Him His voice. But it doesn't end there.]

So Denver first teaches in his 10-part but single talk (his claim not mine), the essential content of which he claims was given to him directly by the Lord, that "throughout scripture, almost invariably, the word "servants" is referring to angelic ministrants.” I consider this teaching to be almost invariably false. I think, later, when he went back to correct the transcripts and add his commentary (all the stuff in brackets) he realized this ridiculous error and decided to hedge with the teaching of angels being anyone with a true message which is much more general and ambiguous. This really confuses the meaning of angels and servants, which are not interchangeable terms in the Book of Mormon or D&C. We’re all angels, by that innovative redefinition, if we’re on the Lord’s errand, etc., versus angels being sent from the presence of God, spirits of just men made perfect or resurrected beings (e.g. D&C 129). In other words, this whole equation of angels and servants just creates scriptural confusion rather than clarity or plainness. To confuse the terms seems very nonsensical. The Book of Mormon and D&C do not seem to ever confuse them. One would think if Denver’s talk was actually given to him by the Lord it would not include this blatant error which required a very ambiguous and nonsensical edit/twist to correct it. Under his redefinition, he/Denver is an angel. But I believe he said this to further divorce the meaning of these verses in D&C 84 from the traditional priesthood definition, which is servants equals the men God has authorized. He redefined priesthood to be association with heavenly beings versus the traditional divine authority given to men by ordination. I'm still examining his claim that Melchizedek Priesthood can only be given by God's own mouth. I think Joseph believed differently. Anyway, it's very innovative teaching going on here.

Here are the places in the Book of Mormon and D&C which refer to “servants” or “my servants” and they almost invariably refer to earthly/mortal authorized servants, in the D&C particularly and namely Joseph and his associates and successors. Sorry for the exhaustive quote, feel free to skim or read in its entirety, as you wish.

Hel 5:29,32
29 And it came to pass that there came a voice as if it were above the cloud of darkness, saying: Repent ye, repent ye, and seek no more to destroy my servants [Lehi & Nephi, not angels] whom I have sent unto you to declare good tidings.
32 And behold the voice came again, saying: Repent ye, repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand; and seek no more to destroy my servants [again, Lehi & Nephi, not angels]. And it came to pass that the earth shook again, and the walls trembled.

D&C 1:6,24,38
6 Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants [not angels], and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them [same servants previously referred to, JS & brethren] to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth.
24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness [obviously not angels and therefore applicable to term in whole section], after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants [not angels, see verse 6 & 24], it is the same.

D&C 5:11
11 And in addition to your testimony, the testimony of three of my servants [Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, & Martin Harris], whom I shall call and ordain, unto whom I will show these things, and they shall go forth with my words that are given through you.

D&C 27:8
8 Which John I have sent unto you, my servants, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Oliver Cowdery, to ordain you unto the first priesthood which you have received, that you might be called and ordained even as Aaron;

D&C 32:2
2 And that which I have appointed unto him is that he shall go with my servants, Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer, Jun., into the wilderness among the Lamanites.

D&C 33:1
1 Behold, I say unto you, my servants Ezra and Northrop, open ye your ears and hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, whose word is quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of the joints and marrow, soul and spirit; and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

D&C 36:5
5 That as many as shall come before my servants Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith, Jun., embracing this calling and commandment, shall be ordained and sent forth to preach the everlasting gospel among the nations--

D&C 42:4,63
4 Behold, verily I say unto you, I give unto you this first commandment, that ye shall go forth in my name, every one of you, excepting my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon.
63 And behold, it shall come to pass that my servants [not angels] shall be sent forth to the east and to the west, to the north and to the south.

D&C 43:25,30
25 How oft have I called upon you by the mouth of my servants, [not angels as distinguished by the rest of the list] and by the ministering of angels, and by mine own voice, and by the voice of thunderings, and by the voice of lightnings, and by the voice of tempests, and by the voice of earthquakes, and great hailstorms, and by the voice of famines and pestilences of every kind, and by the great sound of a trump, and by the voice of judgment, and by the voice of mercy all the day long, and by the voice of glory and honor and the riches of eternal life, and would have saved you with an everlasting salvation, but ye would not!
30 For the great Millennium, of which I have spoken by the mouth of my servants [not angels, but rather Joseph & brethren], shall come.

D&C 44:1
1 Behold, thus saith the Lord unto you my servants, it is expedient in me that the elders of my church should be called together, from the east and from the west, and from the north and from the south, by letter or some other way.

D&C 49:1,3-4
1 HEARKEN unto my word, my servants Sidney, and Parley, and Leman; for behold, verily I say unto you, that I give unto you a commandment that you shall go and preach my gospel which ye have received, even as ye have received it, unto the Shakers.
3 Wherefore, I send you, my servants Sidney and Parley, to preach the gospel unto them.
4 And my servant Leman shall be ordained unto this work, that he may reason with them, not according to that which he has received of them, but according to that which shall be taught him by you my servants; and by so doing I will bless him, otherwise he shall not prosper.

D&C 50:38
38 And also my servant John Corrill, or as many of my servants as are ordained unto this office, and let them labor in the vineyard; and let no man hinder them doing that which I have appointed unto them--

D&C 52:3,24-32,35,41
3 Wherefore, verily I say unto you, let my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon take their journey as soon as preparations can be made to leave their homes, and journey to the land of Missouri.
24 And again, let my servants Edward Partridge and Martin Harris take their journey with my servants Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith, Jun.
25 Let my servants David Whitmer and Harvey Whitlock also take their journey, and preach by the way unto this same land.
26 And let my servants Parley P. Pratt and Orson Pratt take their journey, and preach by the way, even unto this same land.
27 And let my servants Solomon Hancock and Simeon Carter also take their journey unto this same land, and preach by the way.
28 Let my servants Edson Fuller and Jacob Scott also take their journey.
29 Let my servants Levi W. Hancock and Zebedee Coltrin also take their journey.
30 Let my servants Reynolds Cahoon and Samuel H. Smith also take their journey.
31 Let my servants Wheeler Baldwin and William Carter also take their journey.
32 And let my servants Newel Knight and Selah J. Griffin both be ordained, and also take their journey.
35 And again, I say unto you, let my servants Joseph Wakefield and Solomon Humphrey take their journey into the eastern lands;
41 And again, let my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon and Edward Partridge take with them a recommend from the church. And let there be one obtained for my servant Oliver Cowdery also.

D&C 53:5
5 And again, verily I say unto you, you shall take your journey with my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon.

D&C 5:5
5 And again, verily I say unto you, for this cause you shall take your journey with my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, that you may be planted in the land of your inheritance to do this work.

D&C 56:5-6
5 Wherefore, I revoke the commandment which was given unto [/b]my servants Thomas B. Marsh and Ezra Thayre, and give a new commandment unto my servant Thomas, that he shall take up his journey speedily to the land of Missouri, and my servant Selah J. Griffin shall also go with him.
6 For behold, I revoke the commandment which was given unto my servants Selah J. Griffin and Newel Knight,[/b] in consequence of the stiffneckedness of my people which are in Thompson, and their rebellions.

D&C 58:58
58 And let a conference meeting be called; and after that let my servants Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith, Jun., return, and also Oliver Cowdery with them, to accomplish the residue of the work which I have appointed unto them in their own land, and the residue as shall be ruled by the conferences.

D&C 60:6
6 And from thence let my servants Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Oliver Cowdery, take their journey for Cincinnati;

D&C 61:9,23,30
9 But now, verily I say, it behooveth me that ye should part. Wherefore let my servants Sidney Gilbert and William W. Phelps take their former company, and let them take their journey in haste that they may fill their mission, and through faith they shall overcome;
23 And now, concerning my servants Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Oliver Cowdery, let them come not again upon the waters, save it be upon the canal, while journeying unto their homes; or in other words they shall not come upon the waters to journey, save upon the canal.
30 And again, verily I say unto you, my servants Sidney Rigdon, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Oliver Cowdery, shall not open their mouths in the congregations of the wicked until they arrive at Cincinnati;

D&C 63:65
65 Let my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, seek them a home, as they are taught through prayer by the Spirit.

D&C 64:26
26 And it is not meet that my servants Newel K. Whitney and Sidney Gilbert, should sell their store and their possessions here; for this is not wisdom until the residue of the church, which remaineth in this place, shall go up unto the land of Zion.

D&C 68:5
5 Behold, this is the promise of the Lord unto you, O ye my servants [Joseph & brethren being addressed].

D&C 69:5
5 And also, my servants who are abroad in the earth should send forth the accounts of their stewardships to the land of Zion;

D&C 70:15
15 Now, this commandment I give unto my servants for their benefit while they remain, for a manifestation of my blessings upon their heads, and for a reward of their diligence and for their security;

D&C 71:1
1 Behold, thus saith the Lord unto you my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, that the time has verily come that it is necessary and expedient in me that you should open your mouths in proclaiming my gospel, the things of the kingdom, expounding the mysteries thereof out of the scriptures, according to that portion of Spirit and power which shall be given unto you, even as I will.

D&C 72:20
20 And again, let my servants who are appointed as stewards over the literary concerns of my church have claim for assistance upon the bishop or bishops in all things--

D&C 73:3
3 Now, verily I say unto you my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, saith the Lord, it is expedient to translate again;

D&C 82:1,11
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, my servants, that inasmuch as you have forgiven one another your trespasses, even so I, the Lord, forgive you.
11 Therefore, verily I say unto you, that it is expedient for my servants Edward Partridge and Newel K. Whitney, A. Sidney Gilbert and Sidney Rigdon, and my servants Joseph Smith, and John Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery, and W. W. Phelps and Martin Harris to be bound together by a bond and covenant that cannot be broken by transgression, except judgment shall immediately follow, in your several stewardships--

D&C 84:36,117
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
117 And verily I say unto you, the rest of my servants go ye forth as your circumstances shall permit, in your several callings, unto the great and notable cities and villages, reproving the world in righteousness of all their unrighteous and ungodly deeds, setting forth clearly and understandingly the desolation of abomination in the last days.

D&C 86:1
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servants, concerning the parable of the wheat and of the tares:

D&C 93:52
52 And let my servants Joseph Smith, Jun., and Frederick G. Williams make haste also, and it shall be given them even according to the prayer of faith; and inasmuch as you keep my sayings you shall not be confounded in this world, nor in the world to come.

D&C 94:14
14 And on the first and second lots on the north shall my servants Reynolds Cahoon and Jared Carter receive their inheritances--

D&C 95:10
10 Nevertheless, my servants sinned a very grievous sin; and contentions arose in the school of the prophets; which was very grievous unto me, saith your Lord; therefore I sent them forth to be chastened.

D&C 100:14
14 Thy brethren, my servants Orson Hyde and John Gould, are in my hands; and inasmuch as they keep my commandments they shall be saved.

D&C 101:55
55 And the lord of the vineyard said unto one of his servants: Go and gather together the residue of my servants and take all the strength of mine house, which are my warriors, my young men, and they that are of middle age also among all my servants, who are the strength of mine house, save those only whom I have appointed to tarry; [seems like a pretty obvious reference to Joseph and Zion’s Camp]

D&C 104:4,29
4 Therefore, inasmuch as some of my servants have not kept the commandment, but have broken the covenant through covetousness, and with feigned words, I have cursed them with a very sore and grievous curse.
29 And let my servants Frederick G. Williams and Oliver Cowdery have the printing office and all things that pertain unto it.

D&C 108:4
4 Wait patiently until the solemn assembly shall be called of my servants then you shall be remembered with the first of mine elders, and receive right by ordination with the rest of mine elders whom I have chosen.

D&C 110:8-9
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants [obviously mortals, not angels], and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.

D&C 12:1
1 VERILY thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Thomas: I have heard thy prayers; and thine alms have come up as a memorial before me, in behalf of those, thy brethren, who were chosen to bear testimony of my name and to send it abroad among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, and ordained through the instrumentality of my servants,

D&C 117:16
16 And again, verily I say unto you, let all my servants in the land of Kirtland remember the Lord their God, and mine house also, to keep and preserve it holy, and to overthrow the moneychangers in mine own due time, saith the Lord. Even so. Amen.

D&C 121:18
18 And those who swear falsely against my servants that they might bring them into bondage and death--

D&C 124:8,45,118
8 And that I may visit them in the day of visitation, when I shall unveil the face of my covering, to appoint the portion of the oppressor among hypocrites, where there is gnashing of teeth, if they reject my servants and my testimony which I have revealed unto them.
45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people [obviously mortal leaders], behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place.
118 And hearken unto the counsel of my servants Joseph, and Hyrum, and William Law, and unto the authorities which I have called to lay the foundation of Zion; and it shall be well with him forever and ever. Even so. Amen.

D&C 133:30,71
30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.
71 Behold, and lo, there are none to deliver you; for ye obeyed not my voice when I called to you out of the heavens; ye believed not my servants and when they were sent unto you ye received them not.

Jesef wrote:Hi Friends,

Please read this OP carefully before commenting. I've already discussed it with BrianM and we want to keep this very respectful and friendly, though it is a sensitive and polarizing topic.

BrianM and I both used to be in the Approaching the Heavenly Gift crowd who paid close attention to Denver Snuffer and pretty much everything he ever said. I will share my story along the way and maybe BrianM will share his - I'm not trying to speak for him.

So, I hope we can all agree to keep some ground rules to avoid contention. I'm not proposing enforcement, but BrianM can chime in on that if he wants since it's his forum. But the purpose of this thread is not to bash Denver Snuffer or those who are following him, a.k.a. Snufferites, Remnant Movement, etc. It is not a place for ad hominem attacks. Though I understand that labeling or judging/deciding a person to be a "false" or "fallen" prophet, versus a "true prophet", might seem like ad hominem. In the context of this discussion, I do not mean those particular labels or judgements as personal attacks or character judgements. In other words by saying I came to the conclusion (as others have) that Denver may be a false prophet or a fallen prophet, I at least am not accusing him of being a horrible or evil human being or casting an eternal judgment upon him. There are many possibilities, as I see it, for example but not limited to: he might be deceived (like Korihor) or self-deceived or delusional or mentally ill in some way, the list goes on. It is possible he is not deliberately and consciously deceiving, evil, etc. He claims to know what he's talking about, he claims surety, he teaches he should be damned if he is claiming/teaching falsely - but I don't have to judge him by his own standard and I won't. It's possible he's just another nutcase and he's had some real hallucinations - anyway, I don't need to condemn him. I can even believe he is sincere but mistaken. He's obviously a talented and sincere person. I can even believe that he is sincere in his mission but does not understand his true purpose which may be as a distraction or a test of some kind. I don't know and therefore won't judge (in that sense), but leave it to God.

So this is not a thread for believers/followers of Denver to defend him as a true prophet/messenger, etc. If that's you, please move along or just read along and hold your tongue unless you have something legitimate and somewhat objective to contribute. You can go join one of the many forums devoted to Denver's Remnant movement where your beliefs will be reinforced by a likeminded group.

The purpose of this thread is not to debate pros or cons of Denver as true or false. This thread is primarily for those who were once "following" or listening to Denver, open to his claims and message possibly being true, maybe even read his first book The Second Comforter (TSC) and liked it or were edified by it (I was one of them), and maybe some of his other books and blog, and stayed on the train for a while, but either eventually or suddenly came to the conclusion or received personal revelation that he and his message were not true (what he claims himself and his message to be). This thread is for you to share your stories and experiences and what led you to jump off the Denver Snuffer train, as I did, as BrianM did, and I believe many others have as well.

For those who are unaware, Denver Snuffer claims that the LDS Church is basically rejected by the Lord and has lost it's authority. This recent blog post of his summarizes the polarity of his message pretty well:
http://denversnuffer.com/2015/08/baptism-is-mandatory/

All the denominations are presently astray. But God still offers baptism.

There are some few authorized by Christ, performing baptism with His authority, teaching the doctrine of Christ, and giving freely an ordinance to any willing to accept the Doctrine of Christ and repent.

God has made Himself directly known to prophets of old. He did so with Abraham (Gen. 15:1); and Jacob/Israel (Gen. 46:2); and has said He would do so with any authentic prophet (Num. 12:6).

The LDS Church does not offer an acceptable baptism any longer. In the LDS Church’s official publication for their missionaries (who are involved with any baptism of any individual nine years of age or older), they instruct the following is to be included in the missionaries’ Baptismal Interview Questions (see Preach My Gospel, p. 206): “2. Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God? What does this mean to you?”

The phrasing of the question presumes any generic church president who happens to be “current” is ipso facto “a prophet of God.” The office makes it so.

It is a church office in LDS theology, and not the calling of the man by God’s own voice. (Contrast with JST Gen. 14:29.)

The baptism offered by LDS Church missionaries is based on an adulteration of Christ’s doctrine, is not effective, and will no longer be accepted by Christ as His. He does, however, require baptism. The acceptable means was outlined in my talk in Phoenix and can be read as a paper on this blog, or the talk can be downloaded here or streamed on YouTube.

Baptism is necessary. A record is likewise necessary. Baptism is offered freely, without obligation, and without initiating you to follow another man or men. You are free to thereafter worship as you see fit. But it is essential. A record is kept by a central recorder. The website is http://www.recordersclearinghouse.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. It is a necessary process.

The only condition for baptism is to accept the Doctrine of Christ, set out by Christ in His own words. Christ commanded it be done, and has reiterated that it is to be done anew in our day. We will be disappointed at His coming if we fail to obey.

Notice the subtle contrast he makes between the LDS Apostles and himself (a prophet to whom God directly revealed Himself). He also has been very critical of the LDS Church leaders from Brigham Young and the 1844 Twelve all the way up to the current Apostles. In his most recent post (as of this writing, he is very prolific) he alludes to them as "wolves" - he talks about John C. Bennett for most of the post but then finishes with this:
http://denversnuffer.com/2015/09/preten ... lic-piety/

Today it is probably no different. Wolves are still trusted with the treasury, given honor, and smothered with adoration. Joseph Smith had little confidence in mankind’s ability to decide between the real and the imitation. He explained it this way: “The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that were sent of God, they considered to be false prophets, and hence they killed, stoned, punished and imprisoned the true prophets, and these had to hide themselves ‘in deserts and dens, and caves of the earth, (see Hebrews 11:38), and though the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society as vagabonds, whilst they cherished, honored and supported knaves, vagabonds, hypocrites, impostors, and the basest of men.” (DHC, Vol. 4, p. 574; also TPJS, p. 206.) Anything claimed to be truth should conform with the truths already given in scripture. Everyone’s motives should be questioned until it is determined by sufficient observation they are sheep. Any teaching or person who draws us to them, and does not point us to the Lord is unable to help us. If they try to supplant Christ as the object of admiration, then they are anti-Christ and a false prophet.

I'm calling these things out because this was/is actually one of my pet peeves about his approach and writing style, all the innuendo, insinuation, and indirect accusations against the LDS Leaders especially, as well as the many self-references that he is different and true while they are false, etc. These were red flags to me, but not ultimately why I jumped off his train. Also I wanted to give some context to where Denver is today, after his excommunication in September 2013, followed by his 10-talk speaking tour around the Mormon Corridor (Moridor) - and now his official publishing of that "message" in his latest book "Preserving the Restoration" - only $22 for paperback on Amazon, http://www.amazon.com/Preserving-Restor ... 0989150364 - contrast his position today to when he was a faithful member of the LDS Church writing TSC and just giving hope to any member to receive the Second Comforter.

So please, if you were on the Denver Snuffer train and eventually jumped off, feel free to share your stories and experiences and discuss. I'll share mine apart from the OP very shortly.

whatever wrote:

Jesef wrote:Serenity now.

You must be exhausted. All this analyzing ... soooo tiresome. Go to God, Jesef. That's all.

Jesef wrote:I appreciate it, boo.

Honestly, one of the quandaries I'm trying to figure out right now is how so many good and well-intentioned souls on earth, and even just in our relatively small Mormon bubble - which is less than 0.2% of the world's population - can be receiving such different answers to questions we are claiming to be eternally salvific. Everyone has a super-spiritual experience to back up their position or claim too.

For example, take Denver and his claims that the LDS Church is basically rejected and his movement is the Lord's remnant and the stone cut out of the mountain without hands. Look how many people have followed him and claim it is by the Spirit and angels attending and they know it is of God. Then look at all the mainstream LDS people who claim to know the exact opposite. And then each side accuses or at least thinks the other is blind and deceived, etc.

freedomforall wrote:

Jesef wrote:I appreciate it, boo.

Honestly, one of the quandaries I'm trying to figure out right now is how so many good and well-intentioned souls on earth, and even just in our relatively small Mormon bubble - which is less than 0.2% of the world's population - can be receiving such different answers to questions we are claiming to be eternally salvific. Everyone has a super-spiritual experience to back up their position or claim too.

For example, take Denver and his claims that the LDS Church is basically rejected and his movement is the Lord's remnant and the stone cut out of the mountain without hands. Look how many people have followed him and claim it is by the Spirit and angels attending and they know it is of God. Then look at all the mainstream LDS people who claim to know the exact opposite. And then each side accuses or at least thinks the other is blind and deceived, etc.

Maybe it has something to do with listening to false prophets. The Lord emphatically states that his sheep will hear his voice and follow him, yet here comes a guy hardly anyone knows and says follow me because the path you're on is now no good...and people follow that like ants to honey. They forgot all about waiting and listening for the voice of God and follow a man that doesn't even belong to Christ's church any longer. See the problem?
Something to do with false prophets, I'd say. And the worst of it is that these false prophets turn and say the prophets they knew and have done for years..are now the enemy. Go figure!

freedomforall wrote:So I guess all that any of us can do now is get rid of our scriptures, even though God says the "FULNESS" of the gospel is in the BoM, and give up even trying to get back to Father...because we're all going to hell no matter what we read in the BoM about faith, hope and steadfastness in Christ, and being perfected in him during our life. At least this is what I think your message implies. According to the content no one is exempt, so it must include the author of the post above. I hope all goes well.

jwharton wrote:

freedomforall wrote:So I guess all that any of us can do now is get rid of our scriptures, even though God says the "FULNESS" of the gospel is in the BoM, and give up even trying to get back to Father...because we're all going to hell no matter what we read in the BoM about faith, hope and steadfastness in Christ, and being perfected in him during our life. At least this is what I think your message implies. According to the content no one is exempt, so it must include the author of the post above. I hope all goes well.

Are you responding to my comment?
If so, your reading comprehension skills are sorely lacking.
Sounds to me like you are just trying to smear and discredit what I have shared.
The nature of your response strikes me as coming from someone described in Jacob chapter 6 as stiffnecked, gainsaying and hard hearted.
Apparently you aren't up to the task of confronting the realities the Book of Mormon talks about happening in the latter days. I simply do not get all wrapped up on the negative stuff and being fanatical about it.
For example, all of its warnings are for those who profess it is true, which warnings corroborate what I shared above. Yes, but you clump everyone together as if we're all in jeopardy. Is this clear enough?
Do you think the holy church of God being polluted, while those doing so are crying all is well, will be without significant consequences? Tell me, just who are you as to whom is crying all is well? Only people on this forum? Take your blinders off, please.
Yes, we have the fullness of the Gospel but people have twisted it into refried orthodox Christianity with a Mormon flare. What people? Or is this a blanket "one size fits all" claim?.
The Book of Mormon prophesies that the Gentiles shall reject the fullness of the Gospel and this prophecy has come true. Provide a % Your paragraph above doesn't provide much hope.
Do you think this prophecy coming true will also be without significant consequences? No, especially the % that are guilty.
Are you prepared to go through the time of this all playing out because you currently are. We all are.
We are still under condemnation and have been for well over 100 years, yet most act like we are nigh unto perfection. Where do you fit in? Believe it or not, but many people are perfect in Christ within the church. They have and do apply Moroni 10:32,33 Do you want to take the risk of denying this?
Yet, if you bring up this truth you get reactions much like yours full of pride and denial instead of humility and recognition. You're a funny man. Why are you not humble enough to accept other than your own paradigm as having viability? Further, why do you clump everyone into the same mold? What was this about clarification?
We are so far away from the fullness of the Gospel spoken of in the Book of Mormon. Just who is we, you and the mouse in your pocket? Some of us are trying awfully hard to get back home. Are you out to ruin this belief and effort with and by them in causing good saints to believe they're under condemnation? How about some compassion and leeway?
And, our Mormon politicians are some of the worst at taking us away from it.
We are infested with the spirits the Book of Mormon warns us about.

So, I am not saying forget the Book of Mormon, I'm saying lay aside your self-righteous pride and take its warnings seriously. See what I mean? You earn no points in this kind of crap, speaking of things you know nothing about, but using insults as fact used to back your narrow views, and the only process by which you use to see that you remain top dog on the forum. Please, please do not expect me to be so nice after you going out of your way to insult and berate. Not very becoming from someone judging everyone else as under condemnation, now is it? Or are your insults somehow bypassed rendering you unspotted and perfect?
Of course I am not exempt and I cry out in my heart day in and day out longing for the time more LDS will awaken to our awful situation. You just may succeed by using honey instead of vinagar.
Sadly, reactions like yours to take what someone says pleading for recognition of what will humble us just twist it into nonsense. Sadly, this is a two way street. Deal with it.
The same kind of nonsense the people conjured up in their own minds to justify trying to kill Samuel the Lamanite and others. What side of the wall would you have been on? The way you call be people names you disagree with isn't saying much for the good side.
I speak of humbling ourselves and getting to grips with the reality of our awful situation and you say I am reviling the scriptures. Read your own posts as if someone else wrote it. This would be a good start for you to see just how you envision people and the one's that disagree with you.
Now I realize all over again why I had you on my foe list for a while. Keep it up and you'll be right back there in a jiffy.

freedomforall wrote:

jwharton wrote:

freedomforall wrote:So I guess all that any of us can do now is get rid of our scriptures, even though God says the "FULNESS" of the gospel is in the BoM, and give up even trying to get back to Father...because we're all going to hell no matter what we read in the BoM about faith, hope and steadfastness in Christ, and being perfected in him during our life. At least this is what I think your message implies. According to the content no one is exempt, so it must include the author of the post above. I hope all goes well.

Are you responding to my comment?
If so, your reading comprehension skills are sorely lacking.
Sounds to me like you are just trying to smear and discredit what I have shared.
The nature of your response strikes me as coming from someone described in Jacob chapter 6 as stiffnecked, gainsaying and hard hearted.
Apparently you aren't up to the task of confronting the realities the Book of Mormon talks about happening in the latter days. I simply do not get all wrapped up on the negative stuff and being fanatical about it.
For example, all of its warnings are for those who profess it is true, which warnings corroborate what I shared above. Yes, but you clump everyone together as if we're all in jeopardy. Is this clear enough?
Do you think the holy church of God being polluted, while those doing so are crying all is well, will be without significant consequences? Tell me, just who are you as to whom is crying all is well? Only people on this forum? Take your blinders off, please.
Yes, we have the fullness of the Gospel but people have twisted it into refried orthodox Christianity with a Mormon flare. What people? Or is this a blanket "one size fits all" claim?.
The Book of Mormon prophesies that the Gentiles shall reject the fullness of the Gospel and this prophecy has come true. Provide a % Your paragraph above doesn't provide much hope.
Do you think this prophecy coming true will also be without significant consequences? No, especially the % that are guilty.
Are you prepared to go through the time of this all playing out because you currently are. We all are.
We are still under condemnation and have been for well over 100 years, yet most act like we are nigh unto perfection. Where do you fit in? Believe it or not, but many people are perfect in Christ within the church. They have and do apply Moroni 10:32,33 Do you want to take the risk of denying this?
Yet, if you bring up this truth you get reactions much like yours full of pride and denial instead of humility and recognition. You're a funny man. Why are you not humble enough to accept other than your own paradigm as having viability? Further, why do you clump everyone into the same mold? What was this about clarification?
We are so far away from the fullness of the Gospel spoken of in the Book of Mormon. Just who is we, you and the mouse in your pocket? Some of us are trying awfully hard to get back home. Are you out to ruin this belief and effort with and by them in causing good saints to believe they're under condemnation? How about some compassion and leeway?
And, our Mormon politicians are some of the worst at taking us away from it.
We are infested with the spirits the Book of Mormon warns us about.

So, I am not saying forget the Book of Mormon, I'm saying lay aside your self-righteous pride and take its warnings seriously. See what I mean? You earn no points in this kind of crap, speaking of things you know nothing about, but using insults as fact used to back your narrow views, and the only process by which you use to see that you remain top dog on the forum. Please, please do not expect me to be so nice after you going out of your way to insult and berate. Not very becoming from someone judging everyone else as under condemnation, now is it? Or are your insults somehow bypassed rendering you unspotted and perfect?
Of course I am not exempt and I cry out in my heart day in and day out longing for the time more LDS will awaken to our awful situation. You just may succeed by using honey instead of vinagar.
Sadly, reactions like yours to take what someone says pleading for recognition of what will humble us just twist it into nonsense. Sadly, this is a two way street. Deal with it.
The same kind of nonsense the people conjured up in their own minds to justify trying to kill Samuel the Lamanite and others. What side of the wall would you have been on? The way you call be people names you disagree with isn't saying much for the good side.
I speak of humbling ourselves and getting to grips with the reality of our awful situation and you say I am reviling the scriptures. Read your own posts as if someone else wrote it. This would be a good start for you to see just how you envision people and the one's that disagree with you.
Now I realize all over again why I had you on my foe list for a while. Keep it up and you'll be right back there in a jiffy.

What stops you? Quit talking about it. Besides I'm out to learn things from people that aren't afraid to keep a civil tongue in their head. Name calling and mind attacks is not in your favor, not by a long shot.
Yes, comprehension skills are needed. This is what makes for good conversation. But let's face it, a one sided view of how the church is under so much condemnation to the point that good, righteous people are going to become SOP's by just being a member with blood, is simply too much to excogitate over. Why not read yoiur own post and see the problem instead of using name calling to hold onto your position as if you never make mistakes in your understanding and reasoning skills. It takes good comprehension to realize that that theory just can't be right, and your gloating over it is even worse. If it were, we would have no further need for scriptures that tell us emphatically that by seeking Christ, keeping the commandments and living righteously, having faith, hope and good works...a man can and will go back to Father, especially when God, himself, declares it. To clump all the saints into a nice neat little package and stamping "defective" on it, is pathetic. To think that the D&C no matter the chronological order of scripture, now somehow negates all of the promises given the saints in previous scripture...scripture that we are adamantly told to study and internalize, is not in line with current views of condemnation is an act nothing more than throwing the baby out with the bath water.
There are plenty of people having a different view and understanding of things not matching yoyur paragigm. Maybe you should stop criticizing and learn from others, just like your expecting everything you say to be truth, and having no tolerance of any disagreement. What are you afraid of, being wrong yourself?

D&C 84 is correct. And such a key does belong to the Aaronic order. However, the “key” referred to is to be found in the Aaronic portion of the endowment, which permits you to recognize a true messenger should one visit with you. However, as D&C 129 also reports, if the messenger does not have a body, he will nonetheless deliver his message.

How can it be flattery for the devil to tell someone “I am no devil?” Would his appearance to someone as an “angel of light” be flattery? (2 Ne. 9: 9.) Did the devil attempt to do this with Joseph Smith? (D&C 128: 20.) How was Joseph able to determine the devil was the devil, rather than an “angel of light” when he appeared? Did Joseph learn something about detecting evil spirits from this encounter? What did Michael do to teach Joseph how to detect the devil? What did Joseph later teach about how to detect the devil? (D&C 129: 8.) What kind of a handshake would you expect to be used to detect a true messenger?

Have others been confronted by Satan appearing as an angel? (Moses 1: 12.) Now if one were deceived by the devil, thinking him an angel of light, would the devil teach them false doctrines? (Alma 30: 53.)
Would the false doctrines make them and those hearing from them feel secure, or would it stir them up to repentance?

This leads in turn to another addition to supplement the account which also lacks scriptural support: The appearance of Joseph Smith as the slain, hand-shaking, disembodied Prophet. This detail is added, I assume, because there was concern that unless the event was tied directly to Joseph Smith some people would resist acknowledging the authority.

However, disembodied spirits do not “shake hands.” (D&C 129: 6-7.) Joseph’s presence and hand-shaking, like the other added embellishments, are necessary to put the whole thrust of the story over. The purpose is to put into the hands of five men the ability to freelance in sealing plural marriages.

In the book I refer to the “ceremony of recognition.” This ceremony has a specific order. It begins with an embrace. The headnote (written by Elder McConkie) says “hands, feet and side” as the order. The text, however, refers to the side, then the hands and feet. That ceremony, so far as it is appropriate to do so, is explained in the text of The Second Comforter.

Here the Lord reminds the Nephites they are to remember the body “which [He] has shown unto [them].” The sacred embrace and ceremony of recognition (a term I coined in The Second Comforter), should return to the mind of those present whenever they received the bread again. The Lord could give no greater testimony of what He had done, who He was, and how He served them than by showing to them His risen body still bearing the marks of crucifixion.

This is in contrast to the power given by Christ to lay on hands for the Holy Ghost. For power to do that, Christ touched (and must touch) the man given that power. When Christ actually gave power to give the Holy Ghost, the Book of Mormon account stresses repeatedly that He touched them: There is a difference between a visit by the Holy Ghost and having its presence always to be with you. “A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.” (D&C 130:23.) This difference accounts for the Holy Ghost being available to all, on the one hand, and the power to lay on hands to confer the gift given by those upon whom Christ has laid His hands, on the other hand.

Christ, however, can give the permanent gift of the Holy Ghost by His touch. (3 Ne. 18:36; Moroni 2:1-3.)

Jesef wrote:JWharton & FreedomForAll, Love and Peace to both of you. I hope you guys can reconcile your differences and grievances. Perhaps you could start a new thread and really get to the bottom of it, if you wish.

jwharton wrote:

freedomforall wrote:

jwharton wrote:

freedomforall wrote:So I guess all that any of us can do now is get rid of our scriptures, even though God says the "FULNESS" of the gospel is in the BoM, and give up even trying to get back to Father...because we're all going to hell no matter what we read in the BoM about faith, hope and steadfastness in Christ, and being perfected in him during our life. At least this is what I think your message implies. According to the content no one is exempt, so it must include the author of the post above. I hope all goes well.

Are you responding to my comment?
If so, your reading comprehension skills are sorely lacking.
Sounds to me like you are just trying to smear and discredit what I have shared.
The nature of your response strikes me as coming from someone described in Jacob chapter 6 as stiffnecked, gainsaying and hard hearted.
Apparently you aren't up to the task of confronting the realities the Book of Mormon talks about happening in the latter days. I simply do not get all wrapped up on the negative stuff and being fanatical about it.
For example, all of its warnings are for those who profess it is true, which warnings corroborate what I shared above. Yes, but you clump everyone together as if we're all in jeopardy. Is this clear enough?
Do you think the holy church of God being polluted, while those doing so are crying all is well, will be without significant consequences? Tell me, just who are you as to whom is crying all is well? Only people on this forum? Take your blinders off, please.
Yes, we have the fullness of the Gospel but people have twisted it into refried orthodox Christianity with a Mormon flare. What people? Or is this a blanket "one size fits all" claim?.
The Book of Mormon prophesies that the Gentiles shall reject the fullness of the Gospel and this prophecy has come true. Provide a % Your paragraph above doesn't provide much hope.
Do you think this prophecy coming true will also be without significant consequences? No, especially the % that are guilty.
Are you prepared to go through the time of this all playing out because you currently are. We all are.
We are still under condemnation and have been for well over 100 years, yet most act like we are nigh unto perfection. Where do you fit in? Believe it or not, but many people are perfect in Christ within the church. They have and do apply Moroni 10:32,33 Do you want to take the risk of denying this?
Yet, if you bring up this truth you get reactions much like yours full of pride and denial instead of humility and recognition. You're a funny man. Why are you not humble enough to accept other than your own paradigm as having viability? Further, why do you clump everyone into the same mold? What was this about clarification?
We are so far away from the fullness of the Gospel spoken of in the Book of Mormon. Just who is we, you and the mouse in your pocket? Some of us are trying awfully hard to get back home. Are you out to ruin this belief and effort with and by them in causing good saints to believe they're under condemnation? How about some compassion and leeway?
And, our Mormon politicians are some of the worst at taking us away from it.
We are infested with the spirits the Book of Mormon warns us about.

So, I am not saying forget the Book of Mormon, I'm saying lay aside your self-righteous pride and take its warnings seriously. See what I mean? You earn no points in this kind of crap, speaking of things you know nothing about, but using insults as fact used to back your narrow views, and the only process by which you use to see that you remain top dog on the forum. Please, please do not expect me to be so nice after you going out of your way to insult and berate. Not very becoming from someone judging everyone else as under condemnation, now is it? Or are your insults somehow bypassed rendering you unspotted and perfect?
Of course I am not exempt and I cry out in my heart day in and day out longing for the time more LDS will awaken to our awful situation. You just may succeed by using honey instead of vinagar.
Sadly, reactions like yours to take what someone says pleading for recognition of what will humble us just twist it into nonsense. Sadly, this is a two way street. Deal with it.
The same kind of nonsense the people conjured up in their own minds to justify trying to kill Samuel the Lamanite and others. What side of the wall would you have been on? The way you call be people names you disagree with isn't saying much for the good side.
I speak of humbling ourselves and getting to grips with the reality of our awful situation and you say I am reviling the scriptures. Read your own posts as if someone else wrote it. This would be a good start for you to see just how you envision people and the one's that disagree with you.
Now I realize all over again why I had you on my foe list for a while. Keep it up and you'll be right back there in a jiffy.

What stops you? Quit talking about it. Besides I'm out to learn things from people that aren't afraid to keep a civil tongue in their head. Name calling and mind attacks is not in your favor, not by a long shot.
Yes, comprehension skills are needed. This is what makes for good conversation. But let's face it, a one sided view of how the church is under so much condemnation to the point that good, righteous people are going to become SOP's by just being a member with blood, is simply too much to excogitate over. Why not read yoiur own post and see the problem instead of using name calling to hold onto your position as if you never make mistakes in your understanding and reasoning skills. It takes good comprehension to realize that that theory just can't be right, and your gloating over it is even worse. If it were, we would have no further need for scriptures that tell us emphatically that by seeking Christ, keeping the commandments and living righteously, having faith, hope and good works...a man can and will go back to Father, especially when God, himself, declares it. To clump all the saints into a nice neat little package and stamping "defective" on it, is pathetic. To think that the D&C no matter the chronological order of scripture, now somehow negates all of the promises given the saints in previous scripture...scripture that we are adamantly told to study and internalize, is not in line with current views of condemnation is an act nothing more than throwing the baby out with the bath water.
There are plenty of people having a different view and understanding of things not matching yoyur paragigm. Maybe you should stop criticizing and learn from others, just like your expecting everything you say to be truth, and having no tolerance of any disagreement. What are you afraid of, being wrong yourself?

If you believe me to be wrong about something, I welcome respectful correction.
What I don't welcome is having people do what I pointed out that you did.
Which as far as I can tell was to deliberately run to a foolish conclusion to smear what I said.
And, because you made no acknowledgement of my grievance for doing this....

You are back on my foe list.

I have no interest in attempting respectful dialog with someone like you.

jwharton wrote:The thing people often neglect to take into consideration is God actually intends for those who do not love the truth with an eye single to His glory to be led astray by false prophets. All who reject His law and His Spirit that leads to these laws turn themselves over to false prophets. And, in Ezekiel 14 it says that God will even allow true prophets to be a party to those who deserve to be deceived if the people have it coming. This is not correct. Read 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 where God says He purposely allows the Man of Sin to stand in His temple committing blasphemy so that those who do not love the truth are taken in their own lies and deception. It also says this in Isaiah chapter 66 that God will have people given over to their own delusions incorrect because they do not delight in His truth. He also says in Romans chapter 1 that there are those who hold the truths of God but they fancy themselves as being more wise and God's truths as foolishness. Therefore, God says He delivers them up to their own lusts and in due time it is eventually manifested through their works in the flesh how they became corrupted in their spirits. I can and do agree here, dealing with Romans 66.

This is why I have said several times that the people represent a far greater danger to those who lead them than those who lead are a danger to the people. If the group of people want lies given to them then God will give them the deceptions they desire through their leaders. Not correct. And, it will happen in the leaders teaching truths worded in such a way that the wise who have the Holy Spirit to guide them will understand while those who want the lies will interpret them to see the lies they desire. The Lord used parables, not lies or deceit.

I'll repeat the most classic case, which is found in the excerpts from the manifesto found in the Doctrine and Covenants. People read this and think that our leaders will never in any way be a party to any deceptions and that they can be relied upon as infallible ministers. Incorrect. But, this isn't what it says at all. What it is saying is that the leaders can be a party to going astray, it just won't be them who are doing the leading. Incorrect. If the people want lies given to them then it is the people causing the leaders to go astray and not the other way around. If the leaders follow after sin, this is on their own heads. Also, it says if they do that God will remove them out of their place. Yep! People make the assumption that they are going to be killed or something of that nature, but it doesn't say that. The only office that is chosen exclusively by God is the Lord's Anointed Prophet and this is determined by who God speaks His oracles to as He did through Joseph Smith Jr. and his valid successors. There is no proof whatever that after Wilford Woodruff that we have had someone as the president of the Church continue to receive written "Thus saith the Lord" oracles.So you say? So, when the higher laws were rejected because the people wanted to do away with them at that time God removed His Lord's Anointed mantle from off of the Church President.Ya, right! He did just what He said He would do in the manifesto. After the higher laws were rejected is all that remained is officers in church offices who are chosen by the body. If any of these officers are to be removed it is the responsibility of the people to raise up a controversy over them and have them removed. Otherwise, just like the Jews had Caiaphas doing the best he knew to do, we have religious officers doing the best they know how to do as well. And, light, truth and inspiration continues to come, but it is at a lesser level of glory than it could otherwise be. People don't live the laws and stures we have now, so why would God pile on more? You know, line upon line, here a little there a little?

I'll put it another way. We were commanded to keep Celestial Laws and told that these Celestial Laws were immutable and unchangeable and that if they were changed or neglected that we would put ourselves under the buffetings of the adversary and damn ourselves and disqualify ourselves from divine protection from the Father. This is why the whole church was placed under condemnation, which condemnation was confirmed to yet be upon us as late as 1988. Us, just who is "us"? We could be and should be living Celestial Law in the Father's Celestial Kingdom right now. We are living under Telestial Law and subjected to the usurpation and buffetings of the adversary because this is what we collectively have chosen. Really, what about those who repent and do the best they can to keep the commandments and their covenants, and approach God in sackcloth and ashes? Should the righteous few, be brought down by less than righteous members? Even God doesn't practice this unjust idea. Do men go to hell for Adams transgression or not? The vast majority of saints have the outward notion that we are just waiting for the day when our leaders tell us to start living the higher laws and then they will worry about it. However, the leaders won't receive any such inspiration to redeem us to these higher laws until we repent of our slothful and neglectful attitude towards them. And, unfortunately, our leaders are paying a very dear price to carry out what it is that the masses want done. The tares want the wheat choked out and the manner by which the wheat's "breath" is extinguished is by spiritual capital punishment, which is the shedding of innocent blood. The Holy Ghost is denied to those who are in fact worthy and those who participate in this have shed innocent spiritual blood and shall receive perdition.
The people are slaughtering the wheat and condemning many of our leaders to perdition to have it done. Nice story, but not true.

The church will survive all of this because its time of being cleansed and set in order will come, but so far we are paying a horrible price in the meantime. This is why it says when Lucifer was finally clearly seen and identified and cast down that the heavens wept greatly. The calamities will come and bring all of this to a head and so our leaders need our prayers more than ever before because the traditions and the precepts of men are extremely powerful and it will incline them to shed innocent blood more and more as the tares consolidate their power and influence and try to make their usurpation of the Father's Plan complete.