LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **May 5th, 2016, 10:01 pm**

downey_90240 wrote:
ebenezerarise wrote:
jwharton wrote: If we suffer our leadership to fall out of integrity with the oracles of God and we don't oppose such, we share the responsibility.
That's where you fail in your thinking. The leadership ARE the oracles of God. You cannot compare Thomas S. Monson to Heber J. Grant. The Lord speaks to the present Prophet as today's circumstances require. To hold the present leadership to 19th Century standards is a fallacy. We believe in continuing revelation -- both for them and for ourselves.
According to the Lord through Joseph Smith, oracles are revelations not people (D&C 90:4-5; 124:39,126; etc.).

And the oracles given to the whole church come through the first presidency. Same diff.

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 3:09 am**

Thomas wrote:Doesn't really matter if you call it tithing, charitable donation or investment income. It is all the Lord's money. How can they legitimately say, this pile is mine and that pile is the Lord's? It was all collected in the Lord's name. Boo was spot on when he said, it is the worst type of sophistry.

You forget one main point, money paid to God as tithing is not a free will offering...it is a debt owed to God. It is true that everything we possess belongs to the Lord, but He requires a portion of our possessions to be paid as tithing. Where in scripture do we read that if we don't give everything we have on a regular basis we will be burned at the Lord's coming, huh? Scriptures say "those tithed shall not be burned."

Doctrine and Covenants 64:23
23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

You say sophistry? tell that to the Lord.

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 3:32 am**

clarkkent14 wrote:
iWriteStuff wrote:Odd, but wouldn't quoting modern prophets' statements against the behavior of some church members actually stand as proof that there are true watchmen on the tower? We can't accuse them of being false prophets and then quote them as true prophets at the same time. :-\
No, the point is that those who argue that Mormon isn't talking about US, are then speaking against and contrary to those who they revere as "prophets." It doesn't matter what my view on their status of "prophets" is, it does matter to those who subscribe to following them. If those who "follow" these men disagree with them, well then they are in an interesting predicament in my opinion.

I think you'll find it was Moroni speaking, not Mormon. Moroni was finishing off his father's record.
But it is very clear that Moroni was not speaking about us. You have to wrest the scriptures to make it fit the LDS church.
If PSR's have interpreted it wrongly in the past, so what?
Wouldn't be the first time!

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 3:39 am**

Thomas wrote:Still the Lord's money. When did it become the leader's money?

How about instead of having an abundant amount of poor, they have an opportunity to work?
Check this out!

From: http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_ ... _Lake_City" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The City Creek Center cost is approximately $1.5 billion, not $5 billion. (The $5 billion figure is popularly used on ex-Mormon message boards)

No tithing funds are invested in the City Creek project. However, those funds that are invested may well pay dividends in the future, as well as providing many benefits to the community and those who live in it.

See also: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7000 ... .html?pg=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Question: How does the Church decide where to spend money? Shouldn't they use the money instead to feed the poor and help the needy?

The Church manages an extensive humanitarian effort
Some have insisted that funds would be better if directed to charitable works such as feeding the poor. The Church does have an extensive humanitarian effort. Critics on this point often overlook the fact that Church funds are best managed not by sitting in a bank account, but through prudent investment. Investment in land and real estate development is often a wise and ultimately profitable investment approach.
It is entirely possible that the City Creek Center Mall will eventually become a money making venture, as the Church collects rent from mall merchants. This investment strategy would allow the Church to, over time, recoup its initial outlay or even make money that could be further dedicated to the Church's religious and humanitarian goals.

Church funds are best managed not by sitting in a bank account, but through prudent investment
Critics also overlook the fact that if money is spent to feed the needy, that money is gone. On the other hand, if the Church reinvests in Salt Lake City's downtown core, this provides jobs and economic stimulus (for example, via construction and then the service-industry jobs which will fill the mall upon its completion). While providing fewer short term gains, this long term "teach a man to fish" strategy could ultimately benefit many more people, by allowing them to "help themselves." Presiding Bishop H. David Burton noted:

Reflecting on City Creek, Bishop Burton said that if he'd known seven or eight years ago that "we'd be facing the second-worst recessionary period in our history, I may have not suggested we proceed this quickly with the City Creek project. But knowing there would be on any given day upwards of 1,700 jobs in the community — and that could bless the lives of a lot of families," the church decided to move forward.

"And when you get the secondary impact of those 1,700 prime jobs and the multiplier effect, it is a substantial contribution to this state and this community and its tax base, Bishop Burton said. "Any parcel of property the church owns that is not used directly for ecclesiastical worship is fully taxed at its market value."

Investment of funds and service efforts are not mutually exclusive
Further, property investment does not preclude the Church from continuing its service efforts with other monies. This is not an "either/or" question.
If Salt Lake can avoid the fate of so many other inner cities--a lapse into disrepair, poverty, and crime--this will likewise benefit all the city's inhabitants. The Church seems to be taking a longer view to preserve the city core for the future. One observer has noted economic and social benefits already:

Natalie Gochnour, the executive vice president of the Salt Lake Chamber, points out that the development will include 524 residential units and is already pumping life into downtown. Over the last two years, more than a dozen new restaurants have opened within a two-block radius of the development.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_ ... _Lake_City" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 3:59 am**

Thomas wrote:
ebenezerarise wrote:Pure anti-LDS blather. Pure anti-Mormon propaganda. Nothing less.

Gospel living doesn't make a democracy of the operations of the Church. It's not your Church. Common consent does not obligate you nor give you a "vote". Common consent gives you an opportunity to exercise your stewardship as a member of the body of Christ. That means you can sustain and through that action fulfill your covenant.

In one breath you accuse the Church of gross mismanagement that is so bad they can't meet their obligations and at the same time you make them responsible for all the starving children of the world. Why such logic?

Because you have an agenda. There can be no other reason.
Then why do they call for a vote in General Conference

It is a sustaining vote, or rejection by show of hand either way, not a ballot box.

Sustain = to support, hold, or bear up from below.

But it's based on each individual's attitude. Some people are against the church one way or another, even more...this is the real problem.

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 4:02 am**

Thomas wrote:Yep. I have thought a lot about it. Like the words salary and stipend. Tithing and donation.

Tithing is not a donation. 8-|

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 4:11 am**

ebenezerarise wrote:
boo wrote: Doesn't this beg the very question in controversy . With the financial records a secret ( unlike the first 100 years of the church ) HOW do you know ?
Clearly you know next to nothing about the first 100 years of the restored Church. Let's see those records, eh?

That's as made up as your other claims about the Church's donations in Canada or England. You spout a lot but don't back it up with links as proof. Surely such proof exists, right? Surely the whole anti world would be screaming it, supported by the media, right? Not happening.

If you are a member of the Church you are blessed. It is a privilege to part of the Lord's kingdom. It is too bad you spend your time tearing it down rather than building it up.

I have a young cousin serving a mission in Africa. He's a Millennial -- poor thing -- so his attitude about the church as waffled somewhere near your own as he has endured countless lies thrown at him from his peers. In the more than a year since he's been in Africa he claims his eyes have been fully opened about what the Church does. Money spent on relief, schools, and even building clean water systems -- things he would never see here and on a scale that only the very prideful would talk about.

That's not the Church's way but that seems to be the way you want it to be. Like you're some authority with a right to know how every dime is spent. Your lack of faith is so great you have to SEE.

You will have your reward.

If I recall correctly, he's a former bishop.

#-o

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 4:31 am**

iWriteStuff wrote:
jwharton wrote:
shadow wrote:24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.
Uh, seriously? You would equate them being constructively criticized with this?
Aren't you the same person who compared the apostles to murderous, lecherous wine bibbers building monuments unto themselves to gratify their pride while grinding on the backs of the poor? :-w

Seems comparisons can be extreme in both directions.

Actually, Jwharton said he is as pro-LDS as it gets, viewtopic.php?f=14&t=42106&start=60" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. So criticism of the church must be the new norm for the 21 century. :)) :)) :))

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 4:51 am**

Robin Hood wrote:
jwharton wrote:
Mormon 8
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies--because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

When read in context it is clear this isn't about us.
A lot of people want it to be, but it's not.

Some people will go to great lengths to wrest the scriptures in order to make a derogatory point, not that the point has any relevancy to those trying to be humble, contrite, honest, meek, lowly in heart, steadfast and immovable, faithful, prayerful, don't stir up contention among the brethren, don't try to be a stumbling block for church leaders, don't run to mischief, are covenant keepers, and love God with all their heart, mind and strength.

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 5:27 am**

jockeybox wrote:
ebenezerarise wrote: In one breath you accuse the Church of gross mismanagement that is so bad they can't meet their obligations and at the same time you make them responsible for all the starving children of the world. Why such logic?
Today there are many LDS children, literally starving to death. Stunted growth. Brain degradation. Sometimes getting one meal a day.

Think about that for a second. How many kids could you look in the eye or watch them die in order for an improvement downtown.

Today, approximately $600,000 would ensure all the stakes with starving children would have enough to eat. That is a pittance compared to what was spent on the mall.

Can you see why some people might question the spending of Billions, when 600K could do so much good. It does make wonder wonder about priorities.

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 7:10 am**

freedomforall wrote:

Some people will go to great lengths to wrest the scriptures in order to make a derogatory point .....

I know!
Tell me about it!

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 10:19 am**

shadow wrote:
downey_90240 wrote:
ebenezerarise wrote:
jwharton wrote: If we suffer our leadership to fall out of integrity with the oracles of God and we don't oppose such, we share the responsibility.
That's where you fail in your thinking. The leadership ARE the oracles of God. You cannot compare Thomas S. Monson to Heber J. Grant. The Lord speaks to the present Prophet as today's circumstances require. To hold the present leadership to 19th Century standards is a fallacy. We believe in continuing revelation -- both for them and for ourselves.
According to the Lord through Joseph Smith, oracles are revelations not people (D&C 90:4-5; 124:39,126; etc.).
And the oracles given to the whole church come through the first presidency. Same diff.

This is a very crucial point to get clear on.
It isn't the same difference at all.

This especially becomes clear when you also take into consider the level of ministration you are dealing with.
Each kingdom of glory is determined by who does the ministration.
If the ministration is by way of the Holy Ghost only, then it is Telestial ministration.
If the ministration is by way of the direct 1st-person word of the Father, it is Celestial ministration.

There is never a time when a Telestial ministration can nullify a Celestial ministration.
So, for the fact that we have abandoned the Celestial Laws of the Father, we no longer qualify for Celestial ministration.
This why our leaders no longer receive actual Celestial oracles like Joseph, Brigham, John and Wilford received.
So, if Celestial glory is what is of interest to you, be sure to build your understanding strictly from those oracles only.
Everything else is just "tide us over damage control" until Zion is back on track to the Father's Kingdom.
And, what we especially need to concern ourselves with, is not getting caught up in the adversary's usurpation.
Some in the church know the time will come when the earlier higher laws will be redeemed to us.
Most others seem to think we have left behind our archaic barbarism and have contempt for the Father's Plan.
The differences aren't often spoken of but these two categories definitely exist.
And, what I have found is the higher leadership all fit into the redemption of higher laws category.
However, the Father has allowed the Celestial laws to be whitewashed out in order to see who truly seeks them out.

In due time all of this will be front and center and people will be faced with the choice to be redeemed or to remain fallen.

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 11:10 am**

What I said was that any revelation for the church will come through the first presidency. It won't, for example, come through Denver Snuffer.

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 11:21 am**

shadow wrote:What I said was that any revelation for the church will come through the first presidency. It won't, for example, come through Denver Snuffer.

Simple as that, not complicated, basic, we thank-thee oh God for a Prophet.

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 11:30 am**

ebenezerarise wrote:
jwharton wrote: Nobody is saying the people have dictatorial power in this regard.
But, they do have the power to petition for redress of grievances.
I completely disagree with this. This is the Lord's Church, not a republic.

The Church is indeed the Lord's Church and He gave it a specific governmental structure.
Within this structure the rights and responsibilities of everyone is spelled out clearly.
Officers in offices are not the least bit exempt for the Laws of God.
They are accountable to perform the duties of their offices spelled out in the revelations.
If they are not worthy to stand, it is the people's responsibility to oppose and try them.
All of the provisions to do so are clearly spelled out in the oracles of God to the Church.
All that I am talking about is directly sourced from the oracles.
Please take the time and effort to get out your magnifying glass to search it out yourself.

What you and many others like you are encouraging, without realizing it, is advocating spiritual tyranny.
The Lord didn't give the reigns of the Church wholesale to an immune and unaccountable group of elites.
He set up a system of government where we are all equal and we all share the full responsibility with checks and balances.
The only difference between those in office and those out of office is the officers have duties to keep order in the body.
But, all of these officers are sustained or opposed by the body and are fully accountable to perform their duties.

If they are not performing their duties, per the oracles of God they are responsible to have integrity to, then they should be removed in the manner the oracles of God have outlined for them to be removed. If the people do not remove them then they are accountable for sustaining that which they ought not sustain. If you do not understand this principle of unity and equality then you do not understand the Father's Celestial Order.

Top down authoritarianism where you have a ruling elite verses a bunch of unquestioning and subservient drones is a Telestial Order at best.

ebenezerarise wrote:
Also, we have the right and the responsibility to opt to oppose officers who are neglecting their duties.
I quasi agree. We have the right and responsibility to sustain or not based upon what we know of that person.
But neglect? Not sure that is our call unless you've got information that the powers that be don't.

Yes, our leaders are definitely culpable for simply neglecting their duties.

D&C 107
99 Wherefore, now let every man learn his duty, and to act in the office in which he is appointed, in all diligence.
100 He that is slothful shall not be counted worthy to stand, and he that learns not his duty and shows himself not approved shall not be counted worthy to stand. Even so. Amen.

If they disallow anyone a service they are responsible to render then they can be made subject to a controversy being raised up.
And, if there is a government that is oppressing the saints and causing them to be unable to live all of God's laws, they have a duty there too.
Moses went in to the courts of Pharaoh and lobbied on behalf of the people to be able to render the acceptable offering Jehovah required.
It is the explicit duty of the president of the church to "be like unto Moses" and to do what is proper and necessary to lift the yoke of Babylon off us.
If instead the president of the church is being an arm of the government and increasing Babylons yoke upon us, he should be removed.
And, if he isn't removed then the people are who are responsible for such. The fact that the saints are ignorant of this is very telling.
The adversary's counterfeit plan is to just have an elite that tells everyone what to do and takes away the agency (responsibility) of the people.

The Saints desperately need to awaken to how far astray their mindset is from the actual Celestial Order clearly outlined in the oracles of God.

ebenezerarise wrote:
If we suffer our leadership to fall out of integrity with the oracles of God and we don't oppose such, we share the responsibility.
That's where you fail in your thinking. The leadership ARE the oracles of God.

Absolutely not. The oracles of God are the "thus saith the Lord" first-person revelations that our leaders are responsible to receive and ratify as such.
And, as a part of ratifying them, these written "thus saith the Lord" revelations are to be presented to the body for acceptance by common consent.
Once there is a written revelation such as this received and it goes through this entire process of ratification it is like an amendment to our constitution.
This is what is meant when the oracles of God are referenced, such as in the excerpt from the Manifesto saying even the president can be removed.
If the president of the church is the oracle, as you say, then how could he be removed for going contrary to himself. This makes him totally immune.

The mentality you are espousing here is what has the United States of America all screwed up.
The people and Congress and all of the special interests pay no regard to the written Constitution anymore.
The oracles of God are like our constitution and there isn't any officer, even the president of the church, who can go against them.
But, if we allow our mindset to shift to allow them to do whatever they please and make them the authority above the actual oracles, we are corrupt.

Read the excerpt from the manifesto and examine it from the perspective of what I am talking about.
It says that any leader, including the president of the church, can and should be removed for going against the oracles or their duty.
These men in these offices are just as culpable to keep the oracles of God and to perform their duties as anyone else.
And, it is our responsibility to hold them accountable to such and remove them in accordance to "the programme" as it says.

It is so sad that people have turned this statement into the opposite of what it actually means.
Why is it that people want to abdicate this responsibility to some supposedly infallible elite?
The whole concept of an infallible elite who shouldn't be questioned is pure Luciferianism.

ebenezerarise wrote:You cannot compare Thomas S. Monson to Heber J. Grant.

This isn't about comparing people to people.
This is about having complete fidelity to the written and ratified and accepted by common consent oracles of God and their duties.

ebenezerarise wrote:The Lord speaks to the present Prophet as today's circumstances require.
To hold the present leadership to 19th Century standards is a fallacy.
We believe in continuing revelation -- both for them and for ourselves.

There is a distinction to what I am talking about.
If the Lord says, in an oracle, that the whole church is under condemnation until they repent of something, that's how it is, period.
If the Lord says only obedience to Celestial Law can qualify you for Celestial blessings, then that is how it is and always shall be.
If the Lord says all those who do not consecrate according to the provisions of the United Order shall be turned over to the buffetings of the adversary, that is exactly what can be expected. This is especially so when in that oracle it is said that this commandment is being made immutable and unchangeable. The Lord uses very clear and distinct language when He speaks His oracles so that controversies can be easily settled.

For an example, please read the oracle below. What the Lord has said here doesn't give any future president of the church the wiggle room to revoke what the Lord has said here.

D&C 104
1 VERILY I say unto you, my friends, I give unto you counsel, and a commandment, concerning all the properties which belong to the order which I commanded to be organized and established, to be a united order, and an everlasting order for the benefit of my church, and for the salvation of men until I come--
2 With promise immutable and unchangeable, that inasmuch as those whom I commanded were faithful they should be blessed with a multiplicity of blessings;
3 But inasmuch as they were not faithful they were nigh unto cursing.
4 Therefore, inasmuch as some of my servants have not kept the commandment, but have broken the covenant through covetousness, and with feigned words, I have cursed them with a very sore and grievous curse.

We are supposed to be living in accordance with the United Order system from then until the time of the Lord's coming. And, for those who do not do so, even if they are giving feigned words, it doesn't matter. They are nigh unto cursing and are turned over to the buffetings of the adversary until the day of redemption comes. This is where we were officially delivered to as a whole and it isn't any coincidence that the official "we give up" on the United Order system was within just a few years of the adversary getting his financial system installed in 1913 by way of the Federal Reserve Act. If you do not yet know the significance of how this has made a horrific impact on global affairs, you really need to do your homework. It was by means of this that all of the fomentation of massive wars and the uprising of global communism has been financed. We are paying for our own destruction and being confiscated into utter global bondage to a group of power-hungry elites that are bent solely on creating their version of Zion that is in fact anti-Zion that takes away the freedom of all nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

When we reject light and truth from the Father we position ourselves to suffer tremendously.
And, because of our failing to be the salt of the earth with savor, many others suffer because of our failings.
Much of the blood that has been shed at the hands of the adversary shall be answered upon the heads of those who broke their covenants.
This is why there shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth because people thinking they are right with God will someday come to discover that they were in fact among his fiercest and most bitter enemies.

ebenezerarise wrote:
It is upon this principle and basis that the leaders cannot lead the people astray because we all share the responsibility together.
Wrong again. That is the work of the Lord. And by revelation you will know it.

I know what I have spoken of is absolutely correct, so far as a Celestial society is concerned.
You don't give everyone equality and sovereignty without also giving them full responsibility in connection with that.

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 12:11 pm**

shadow wrote:What I said was that any revelation for the church will come through the first presidency. It won't, for example, come through Denver Snuffer.

There are two problems here.

First of all, there was an oracle received by Wilford Woodruff in 1880 while John Taylor was still the president of the church. In this oracle the Lord said that is all that has to happen is any such oracle received that pertains to the church just needs to be given to the president of the church for acceptance and full ratification, the same as even his own revelation would have to do. So, others beside the church president can be the recipient of revelations for the church, but the due process just has the additional step of submitting it to the president.

Second of all, the office of church president is a distinct office from the office of the Lord's Anointed Prophet. Joseph Smith Jr. wore both hats simultaneously, so to speak. Also, there was an oracle that said upon Joseph's passing that the gift to receive the oracles would go to another, ye even unto the church. And then it said a warning to all to whom the gift to receive the oracles would come to beware to not take it lightly because by so doing they could fall into condemnation. The implication here is that this gift to receive the oracles of God can become lost.

In accordance with the statement in the excerpt from the Manifesto it clearly states that when an action is taken to go contrary to the oracles of God that this person would be removed out of their place. So, when the higher laws were abandoned we have a case where the oracles of God were gone astray from. Thus, we have a real serious situation and we have the church president caught up in the middle of it. He was put in a serious catch-22 double bind. The neglect of the people concerning the higher laws made them insufficient in power to withstand the power of the government to oppose them and so the world gained the upper-hand. The saints found themselves in the position of having to give up the higher laws or be totally destroyed altogether. So, obviously, they had the higher laws taken away from them. But, the consequences foretold are still in effect. The people took the oracles of God and their Celestial covenants too lightly and fell into condemnation so deep that they were forced to have them taken away.

Because of this the church lost the gift to receive the oracles. The Lord removed the church president from the office of Lord's Anointed Prophet. There didn't have to be anymore of an announcement that the Lord removed His Prophet as when the Lord calls a prophet. People just have to figure it all out on their own through personal revelation. But, there certainly is no reason to think the Lord was not absolutely serious in all He has said in D&C 90:3-5 where He gave the warning He did and what was said in the excerpt from the Manifesto that He would remove anyone, even the church president, from going astray from the oracles.

Thus, so far as I can tell, ever since the Higher Laws were abandoned by the Church there hasn't been a Church President who can also be considered a Lord's Anointed Prophet. That office became vacated and along with it the ability to receive "thus saith the Lord" Celestial ministration. But, even so, this does not mean the Church lost any of its keys to continue doing all that it was ordained to do. This is what happened that made the Church more or less at the status of a widow, which is why when the Lord talks about Zion being redeemed that She is likened to a widow in D&C 101.

So, it is entirely possible that the Lord can and shall call a new Lord's Anointed Prophet who will receive "thus saith the Lord" oracles. In fact, if you read Isaiah carefully it will become clear that when the time of Zion's redemption comes a new Lord's Anointed Prophet will be called and he will call the church to repentance and back to order, but the Church will reject him and cast him out and think they have done the Lord a service in doing so. But, they will have rejected and caused their own failure to be redeemed. See D&C 52:14-19 and Isaiah 66:1-5 and D&C 133:62-74.

D&C 52
14 And again, I will give unto you a pattern in all things, that ye may not be deceived; for Satan is abroad in the land, and he goeth forth deceiving the nations--
15 Wherefore he that prayeth, whose spirit is contrite, the same is accepted of me if he obey mine ordinances.
16 He that speaketh, whose spirit is contrite, whose language is meek and edifieth, the same is of God if he obey mine ordinances.
17 And again, he that trembleth under my power shall be made strong, and shall bring forth fruits of praise and wisdom, according to the revelations and truths which I have given you.
18 And again, he that is overcome and bringeth not forth fruits, even according to this pattern, is not of me.
19 Wherefore, by this pattern ye shall know the spirits in all cases under the whole heavens.

Isaiah 66
1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? [where is Zion?]
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. [This is the Elias/Elijah/John servant to call in Zion's redemption]
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they [wayard LDS] have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not. [LDS rejected higher laws and preferred Cain's unacceptable offering]
5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

D&C 133
62 And unto him that repenteth and sanctifieth himself before the Lord shall be given eternal life.
63 And upon them that hearken not to the voice of the Lord shall be fulfilled that which was written by the prophet Moses, that they should be cut off from among the people.
64 And also that which was written by the prophet Malachi: For, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
65 Wherefore, this shall be the answer of the Lord unto them:
66 In that day when I came unto mine own, no man among you received me, and you were driven out. [of Jackson County Missouri]
67 When I called again [through the Elias/Elijah/John servant] there was none of you to answer; yet my arm was not shortened at all that I could not redeem, neither my power to deliver. [A new John the Baptist would come to call the church back to order.]
68 Behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea. I make the rivers a wilderness; their fish stink, and die for thirst.
69 I clothe the heavens with blackness, and make sackcloth their covering.
70 And this shall ye have of my hand--ye shall lie down in sorrow.
71 Behold, and lo, there are none to deliver you; for ye obeyed not my voice when I called to you out of the heavens; ye believed not my servants, and when they were sent unto you ye received them not.
72 Wherefore, they sealed up the testimony and bound up the law, and ye were delivered over unto darkness.
73 These shall go away into outer darkness, where there is weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth.
74 Behold the Lord your God hath spoken it. Amen.

If you put these passages together into the overall big-picture and examine the "pattern in all things" it reveals that the Church loses the gift to receive oracles and that in due time, when the Lord desires for Zion to be redeemed and for everything to be set back in order, that a new Lord's Anointed Prophet would be called, just like John the Baptist was called, from outside of the existing rank and file leaders.

The new Prophet would tremble at the still small voice of the Lord and receive oracles exactly like Joseph Smith Jr. did and these oracles would be calling the Church back to order from whence it had fallen. But, it says that even though the Lord sent his messenger or his servant to bring the good tidings that the time for Zion's redemption had come, the brethren would hate him and reject him and cast him out. We are literally repeating what the Jews of old did to John the Baptist who was the Elijah servant who came to prepare the way for the Messiah.

This rejection of the Elias/Elijah/John messenger by the ecclesiastic rank and file leaves the vast majority of the people ignorant that the time for Zion's redemption has actually come. Therefore, the masses are left beholden to the modern day Caiaphas who sits in the seat of Moses. But, there shall be a fringe remnant who will discern this messenger and this is the elect. However, that isn't the end of it. There is yet still the phase where even the elect should be deceived too, but that goes into more detail that isn't relevant to Denver Snuffer because he isn't gathering the elect anyway. Those who gather with Denver Snuffer are deceived from the get-go.

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 12:13 pm**

Incidentally, Denver Snuffer is not even close to qualifying for someone who is an Elias/Elijah/John servant.
For one thing, he teaches from his own wisdom, learning and sophistry and does not receive "thus saith the Lord" oracles.
He is not meek and contrite and he has rejected several of the ordinances of the restoration and is now trash-talking temple work.

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 3:58 pm**

jwharton wrote: The Church is indeed the Lord's Church and He gave it a specific governmental structure.
Within this structure the rights and responsibilities of everyone is spelled out clearly.

And HE is at the head. Not you, not me. When we take upon ourselves the name of Christ at baptism it isn't so that we judge who in the Kingdom is doing their job or not.

If we, in the course of events, are presented with the opportunity to sustain an action -- of any sort -- it is just that: to sustain. I do not have the keys to otherwise stand in judgment of those who DO have the keys. There is a process for that, clearly spelled out in the D&C, and that process is NOT at the feet of the membership body of the church: those responsibilities lie with the various quorums as spelled out in the scriptures. They decide -- in council, then those actions, if conditions warrant, are presented to the body for consent. It is very orderly.

But it isn't my job -- or your job -- to organize dissent, investigations or even to raise a vocal warning over those we have no stewardship over. The Lord organized it and my place is to respect it. When it comes time for me to sustain for my place and my part -- I do so.

What you and many others like you are encouraging, without realizing it, is advocating spiritual tyranny.
The Lord didn't give the reigns of the Church wholesale to an immune and unaccountable group of elites.

I don't believe our leadership is an "immune or unaccountable group of elites". I believe that if the direction we're being taken is counter to the will of the Lord that the Lord would act, likely through inspiration to the other bodies (quorums) where those responsibilities lie and that the process would take place as prescribed.

If you don't believe that's happening you can talk to your leadership and pray about it in faith until that understanding is given. Or, you can break your covenants. The choice is yours either way.

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 4:25 pm**

ebenezerarise wrote:
jwharton wrote: The Church is indeed the Lord's Church and He gave it a specific governmental structure.
Within this structure the rights and responsibilities of everyone is spelled out clearly.
And HE is at the head. Not you, not me. When we take upon ourselves the name of Christ at baptism it isn't so that we judge who in the Kingdom is doing their job or not.

It is when the Lord gives you that responsibility.

D&C 64
38 For it shall come to pass that the inhabitants of Zion shall judge all things pertaining to Zion.
39 And liars and hypocrites shall be proved by them, and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known.

Could the Lord be any less clear about what He expects of us?

The time will come when all apostles and prophets who remain opposed to the Father's Celestial order shall be purged by the people.
This won't happen, however, until the people undergo such intense suffering that they will be completely humbled and convinced of their faults.
They will eventually come around to see that they are who got themselves into this mess, despite their leader's doing everything to help them.
And, so, it will boil down to the people coming around to getting themselves back on track, despite any leaders who may offer resistance.
If the masses can drag down good and honorable leaders then surely the masses can repent and push out of the way any wayward leaders.

ebenezerarise wrote: If we, in the course of events, are presented with the opportunity to sustain an action -- of any sort -- it is just that: to sustain. I do not have the keys to otherwise stand in judgment of those who DO have the keys. There is a process for that, clearly spelled out in the D&C, and that process is NOT at the feet of the membership body of the church: those responsibilities lie with the various quorums as spelled out in the scriptures. They decide -- in council, then those actions, if conditions warrant, are presented to the body for consent. It is very orderly.

But it isn't my job -- or your job -- to organize dissent, investigations or even to raise a vocal warning over those we have no stewardship over. The Lord organized it and my place is to respect it. When it comes time for me to sustain for my place and my part -- I do so.

So whose job is it to raise up the controversy spoken of in section 107 that can result in even the president of the church to be removed?
Do you really think everyone is asked if they oppose during the sustaining for no real meaningful purpose or responsibility on our part?

ebenezerarise wrote:
What you and many others like you are encouraging, without realizing it, is advocating spiritual tyranny.
The Lord didn't give the reigns of the Church wholesale to an immune and unaccountable group of elites.
I don't believe our leadership is an "immune or unaccountable group of elites".

You sure are advocating that I relate to them as such.

ebenezerarise wrote: I believe that if the direction we're being taken is counter to the will of the Lord that the Lord would act, likely through inspiration to the other bodies (quorums) where those responsibilities lie and that the process would take place as prescribed.

Your assumption is that the Lord won't give to people the leaders they deserve.
You don't think God will allow leadership to give an idolatrous people what they desire?
God has clearly stated in "the programme" that the people bear responsibility to detect and remove those who are not worthy to stand.
Why should the Lord do something that He has provided the way and means and responsibility for the people to do themselves?

You are right that the people alone don't have this power but the priesthood is responsible to not impede the mechanisms of justice God has given them.

ebenezerarise wrote: If you don't believe that's happening you can talk to your leadership and pray about it in faith until that understanding is given. Or, you can break your covenants. The choice is yours either way.

As I see it you covenant to honor and obey the Law of the Gospel as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants. I have been attempting to teach you what is actually in "the programme" that you have covenanted to obey. However, from my point of view, you and every other member and all leaders who are in a position contrary to this spiritual constitution God has given us to govern our rights and responsibilities in the Church, is that you are the covenant breakers.

So, just because your warning bells have not been rung, doesn't mean you have the right to tell other people to just shut up and swallow down their grievances. There is a place for controversy to be organized and raised and for the proper mechanisms of due process to be utilized in the settling of those controversies. If the members and the priesthood deny this process of loyal opposition and punish those acting in good conscience and for the pure desire to keep integrity with the oracles of God, then they will be punishing those who are innocent in the eyes of the Father for simply standing in their rights and their responsibilities. If such a person is excommunicated for insubordination for attempting to develop a controversy then all those involved and approving of such will be guilty of denying the Holy Ghost and shall end up in Perdition. It really is that simple.

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 5:09 pm**

I'm not telling anyone to "shut up and swallow down their grievances". I'm telling them to have faith and trust how the Lord has designed things.

I've read D&C 107. I can see plainly what you seem to what to wiggle out of --

30 The decisions of these quorums, or either of them, are to be made in all righteousness, in holiness, and lowliness of heart, meekness and long-suffering, and in faith, and virtue, and knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity;

31 Because the promise is, if these things abound in them they shall not be unfruitful in the knowledge of the Lord.

32 And in case that any decision of these quorums is made in unrighteousness, it may be brought before a general assembly of the several quorums, which constitute the spiritual authorities of the church; otherwise there can be no appeal from their decision.

The order of the priesthood is what governs the church -- not the body of membership. All have PART to play, but the Lord was quite specific of how it is done.

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 5:17 pm**

ebenezerarise wrote:I'm not telling anyone to "shut up and swallow down their grievances". I'm telling them to have faith and trust how the Lord has designed things.

I've read D&C 107. I can see plainly what you seem to what to wiggle out of --

30 The decisions of these quorums, or either of them, are to be made in all righteousness, in holiness, and lowliness of heart, meekness and long-suffering, and in faith, and virtue, and knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity;

31 Because the promise is, if these things abound in them they shall not be unfruitful in the knowledge of the Lord.

32 And in case that any decision of these quorums is made in unrighteousness, it may be brought before a general assembly of the several quorums, which constitute the spiritual authorities of the church; otherwise there can be no appeal from their decision.

The order of the priesthood is what governs the church -- not the body of membership. All have PART to play, but the Lord was quite specific of how it is done.

As I have said, if anyone has a grievance, then it becomes the responsibility of the various priesthood bodies, depending upon which ones have jurisdiction in the matter, to perform their duties to hear and address the grievances appropriately.

This is why there is mention of lowliness of heart, meekness and long-suffering, and in faith, and virtue, and knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity. This is what those of the PRIESTHOOD are required to be like when performing their duties and serving the people. They are who has to set the high standard when serving the people.

They are to serve the people but you have it turned around thinking we are supposed to serve them.

When someone has a grievance it is the responsibility of the priesthood to hear it out fully, patiently, lovingly, with long-suffering, etc. and to actually see things through in such a way that it is handled with righteous governance. Therefore, the people have every right, and even the responsibility, to raise up a controversy if there is anything that has gone astray from the oracles of God or if any officers of the Church are not rendering to the people the service that their duties of office require of them.

So, if you were my priesthood leader and I had a grievance, would you perform you duty to hear it out fully and address it or would you just tell me to put a cork in it?

Which method of leadership is righteous dominion and which is unrighteous dominion?

Posted: **May 6th, 2016, 10:56 pm**

jwharton wrote:Incidentally, Denver Snuffer is not even close to qualifying for someone who is an Elias/Elijah/John servant.
For one thing, he teaches from his own wisdom, learning and sophistry and does not receive "thus saith the Lord" oracles.
He is not meek and contrite and he has rejected several of the ordinances of the restoration and is now trash-talking temple work.

I was just checking back in on the forum and surprised to see this thread going again. Quite a tangent you guys have been on. This quoted comment, though, is actually on-topic.

Out of curiosity, JW - I understand you have a fairly unique view - in fact, I don't think I've met anyone else with your same view - what criteria would you use, specifically, to arrive at your quoted conclusion concerning Denver Snuffer? How do you know he is not an Elias/Elijah/John servant? Many still active on this forum obviously consider him to be so. Many have claimed supernatural-visionary experiences, as well as the Holy Ghost, type confirmations that he is such, "a true messenger", etc. (I am not one of them, btw.) Many others have claimed spiritual experiences leading them to exactly the opposite conclusion. Plenty on both sides of the fence, in other words. I'm just curious if you'd be willing to explicate your reasons or bases for reaching the conclusion you have, in greater detail.

Also, do you know who this "mighty and strong" Elias/Elijah/John servant is?
How will you recognize him?
Are you him?

Thanks and peace.

Posted: **May 7th, 2016, 12:23 am**

Jesef wrote:
jwharton wrote:Incidentally, Denver Snuffer is not even close to qualifying for someone who is an Elias/Elijah/John servant.
For one thing, he teaches from his own wisdom, learning and sophistry and does not receive "thus saith the Lord" oracles.
He is not meek and contrite and he has rejected several of the ordinances of the restoration and is now trash-talking temple work.
I was just checking back in on the forum and surprised to see this thread going again. Quite a tangent you guys have been on. This quoted comment, though, is actually on-topic.

Out of curiosity, JW - I understand you have a fairly unique view - in fact, I don't think I've met anyone else with your same view - what criteria would you use, specifically, to arrive at your quoted conclusion concerning Denver Snuffer? How do you know he is not an Elias/Elijah/John servant? Many still active on this forum obviously consider him to be so. Many have claimed supernatural-visionary experiences, as well as the Holy Ghost, type confirmations that he is such, "a true messenger", etc. (I am not one of them, btw.) Many others have claimed spiritual experiences leading them to exactly the opposite conclusion. Plenty on both sides of the fence, in other words. I'm just curious if you'd be willing to explicate your reasons or bases for reaching the conclusion you have, in greater detail.

Also, do you know who this "mighty and strong" Elias/Elijah/John servant is?
How will you recognize him?
Are you him?

Thanks and peace.

I'm definitely not the Elias/Elijah/John servant because I do not receive any "thus saith the Lord" oracles.
This is also the reason why I do not consider Denver Snuffer such. He is not a Lord's Anointed Prophet.
It also doesn't help his case that he is trashing many essential parts of the restoration of the Gospel.

As far as the "One mighty and strong" goes, this is not the Elias/Elijah/John servant.
This servant is in fact the Melchizedek Priesthood body as a whole.

Posted: **May 7th, 2016, 3:22 am**

jwharton wrote:This is why there shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth because people thinking they are right with God will someday come to discover that they were in fact among his fiercest and most bitter enemies.

Such a profound statement, and knowing where members of the church are in their spiritual journey in becoming enemies to God. This is so amazing, so prophetic, I suppose many LDS's will support your lead and be right behind you all the way in this analogy.

Posted: **May 7th, 2016, 5:48 am**

freedomforall wrote:
jwharton wrote:This is why there shall be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth because people thinking they are right with God will someday come to discover that they were in fact among his fiercest and most bitter enemies.
Such a profound statement, and knowing where members of the church are in their spiritual journey in becoming enemies to God. This is so amazing, so prophetic, I suppose many LDS's will support your lead and be right behind you all the way in this analogy.

What jwharton said is what Isaiah and others have prophesied. It has been confirmed to me by the Holy Spirit. There will NOT be many LDS's who will be right behind jwharton and others, because that's the point he is making. Many are called, but few are chosen. Also, Jacob 5:70. Also many prophecies about the rarity of those who follow Christ. But, you're the scriptorian -- make us up a list. Remnant, residue, precious jewels, etc.

LDS Freedom Forum

Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?