LDS Freedom Forum

Separatist wrote:

ebenezerarise wrote: And if you're giving tithing and then demanding an accounting for it...have you really given it?

This is true as far as it goes. But then when you catch wind of potential salaried leaders (see my post above), or the church building high end malls, you have a right and duty as a member to ask, and they have a responsibility/duty to disclose, not just offer the rhetorical "trust me". There are responsibilities all around.

And on matters like the mall it is on public record of who paid for what. The real estate business of the church is just that -- a BUSINESS. That means it is subject to every law, including the payment of taxes, that a Church does NOT have to comply with. You can "catch wind" of a lot of things but it also requires that you look at what is REAL. And what is real in this situation is that "the Church" didn't use Church resources in a project that clearly benefited the MISSION of the Kingdom.

Separatist wrote: I have a hard time believing the God in Heaven who does not upbraid for asking questions, has given the power to man to upbraid in His stead regarding financial integrity.

Where do you draw the line between "asking questions" and "casting blind accusations"?

ebenezerarise wrote:

Separatist wrote: I have a hard time believing the God in Heaven who does not upbraid for asking questions, has given the power to man to upbraid in His stead regarding financial integrity.

Where do you draw the line between "asking questions" and "casting blind accusations"?

For starters, when members are blinded in their capacity to actually see what is being done with church funds, that's problem number one.
We shouldn't be put in the position of having to make "blind accusations" at all.
Then, once they have cured our blindness, they can actually be sustained or opposed in the light of day.

Separatist wrote:

shadow wrote:

Separatist wrote:Actually the issue was that the members could speak out, and the leaders listened. Not only in this case but when Joseph proposed to remove Rigdon from the FP, the members rejected the proposal.

You're suggesting the members just shut the hell up.

No, I'm suggesting the members consent when they choose to sustain or when they oppose. I'm not opposed to opposing. I've never done it, but I know it's been done before by majority rule.

I would suggest a person doesn't need to oppose with hand raised in order to bring issues up. I would suggest the very idea of sustaining IS to bring up issues that may be problematic, otherwise we weaken our influence we could have on our leaders and become mere yes-men automations.

BY:

...I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give their leaders...

I have a hard time believing the God in Heaven who does not upbraid for asking questions, has given the power to man to upbraid in His stead regarding financial integrity.

Sure, if issues arise then it's expected to go to a priesthood leader and submit grievances (that's scriptural). If its valid, the priesthood leader needs to either take care of it or send it up the line based on his stewardship (that's scriptural). But I don't see valid grievances from what's been said here. I see whining. Its doctrinal that church leaders get paid for their service. It started back with Joseph Smith, and that's just since the restoration. Clergy were paid in the New Testament and in the Old Testament. You have no valid gripe. There's no where for it to go. And just as important, you're in a very, very minority. The few aren't supposed to rule the majority no matter how much you want it. That's scriptural too.

underdog wrote: Seems the Church in SLC has been polluted, the hierarchy esp. The rank and file Mormons are mostly ignorant.

But as for the leadership, of them and those who blindly follow Isaiah said in ISA 28:1: "Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!" They should beware, because "The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet, and the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower..."

Wait a minute.

It's not the stewardship of rank and file membership of the Church to dictate how the leaders of the Church are leading. What a false notion! Imagine, we'll just raise a hand in opposition of how the Church spends money. Then, we'll raise a hand in opposition of, say, when the Church says a revelation is received concerning the Word of Wisdom. Then, we'll raise a hand and "vote" to increase tithing by 2%. Then, we'll question the First Vision and vote to remove it from our history? Then, we'll vote to allow gay marriage in temples!

Is this how faith works? Is this how the Lord works?

It would make the Church like every other church out there, subject to the whims of the flesh and the power struggles of men.

This is the Lord's church. You either believe he can run it as He sees fit -- or you can elevate yourself to its head and dictate according to your own wants and wishes how things work.

Faith is NOT required, sacrifice is NOT required, love is NOT required, belief in revelation is NOT required -- just you, your judgment, your approval, and your all-knowing, all-seeing, all-correct sensibilities rule and dictates things because, doggone it, YOU know better than the Lord.

These are not the works of Latter Day Saints. We get asked to accept hard things because our faith requires FAITH. It requires COVENANT. It requires BELIEF that the Lord will do what he has said he will do -- and has done.

This talk of money and malls, tithing and properties...this is not the talk of faith, freedom and liberty. What you suggest is that those who exercise FAITH -- the old #1 again -- are stupid, are blind sheep.

How typical, how short sited, how weak an argument.

shadow wrote:The few aren't supposed to rule the majority no matter how much you want it. That's scriptural too.

Yes, and it is scriptural that the masses get what they want, even when it is wrong and will turn to their condemnation, when the majority desires it.

It is upon this basis that we lost the higher laws and disqualified ourselves to continue to enjoy the presence of the Father in His Kingdom.
Instead we got driven out into the wilderness and put under the buffetings of the adversary who shall spoil and usurp us until the day of redemption.

jwharton wrote: For starters, when members are blinded in their capacity to actually see what is being done with church funds, that's problem number one.

Is it? Who gives a rat's backside what the Church does with money? It's their money, not mine.

My entire life is "invested" in the Church. I attend every meeting, contribute time and talent as well as money, and try with great effort to live what I am taught by the Spirit. I see how money is spent within the Church. I see money go toward buildings and programs and teaching materials that all advance the human condition in ways spiritual and temporal. I see no ostentatious efforts, I see no limos, high lifestyles, nothing of the sort. In fact, quite the opposite. I see budgets, i see control, I see frugality. And I see endless aid to those in need.

But even if I didn't, it's not my business.

We shouldn't be put in the position of having to make "blind accusations" at all.

You're not.

ebenezerarise wrote:

underdog wrote: Seems the Church in SLC has been polluted, the hierarchy esp. The rank and file Mormons are mostly ignorant.

But as for the leadership, of them and those who blindly follow Isaiah said in ISA 28:1: "Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!" They should beware, because "The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet, and the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower..."

Wait a minute.

It's not the stewardship of rank and file membership of the Church to dictate how the leaders of the Church are leading. What a false notion!

Nobody is saying the people have dictatorial power in this regard.
But, they do have the power to petition for redress of grievances.

Also, we have the right and the responsibility to opt to oppose officers who are neglecting their duties.
If we suffer our leadership to fall out of integrity with the oracles of God and we don't oppose such, we share the responsibility.
It is upon this principle and basis that the leaders cannot lead the people astray because we all share the responsibility together.

ebenezerarise wrote:

jwharton wrote: For starters, when members are blinded in their capacity to actually see what is being done with church funds, that's problem number one.

Is it? Who gives a rat's backside what the Church does with money? It's their money, not mine.

We all bear responsibility to conduct the affairs of Zion based upon common consent.
The Father's Kingdom is a union of sovereign equals with all being involved in what is done collectively.
It is the spirit of Lucifer's counterfeit to have a privileged class insulated from a lower class.
If you just want to be an unquestioning and unconcerned slave and minion then the Father's Kingdom is not for you.

ebenezerarise wrote: My entire life is "invested" in the Church. I attend every meeting, contribute time and talent as well as money, and try with great effort to live what I am taught by the Spirit. I see how money is spent within the Church. I see money go toward buildings and programs and teaching materials that all advance the human condition in ways spiritual and temporal. I see no ostentatious efforts, I see no limos, high lifestyles, nothing of the sort. In fact, quite the opposite. I see budgets, i see control, I see frugality. And I see endless aid to those in need.

But even if I didn't, it's not my business.

It is your business to see that no iniquity enters the church.

ebenezerarise wrote:

We shouldn't be put in the position of having to make "blind accusations" at all.

You're not.

We are.

jwharton wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:

Mormon 8
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies--because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

When read in context it is clear this isn't about us.
A lot of people want it to be, but it's not.

Want has nothing to do with it.
It is a message intended for those who actually read the Book of Mormon who are the Holy Church of God.
The only thing I want is for us to humble ourselves and repent of our iniquities as a people.
It's nothing personal either, I would just like for us to worthily uphold what the Lord is counting on us to do.

Read the chapter before (ch.7).
Then read the chapter after (ch.9).
That should give you some context.

Then ask yourself some questions, such as:
Who adorns their church's?
Who sells forgiveness of sins?
What year was it when Moroni wrote this?
What was the state of the Christian church among the Gentiles at that time?
Why did Moroni switch from present tense to past tense?

When you do this you will clearly see that Moroni was not talking about the modern LDS Church. In fact, it is obvious he isn't.
One final question.
If you are still of the same mind then explain how it could be be interpreted in 1829 when the BoM was first published and there was no LDS Church. Or on the 5th April 1830, and so on.

Robin Hood wrote:

jwharton wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:

Mormon 8
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies--because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

When read in context it is clear this isn't about us.
A lot of people want it to be, but it's not.

Want has nothing to do with it.
It is a message intended for those who actually read the Book of Mormon who are the Holy Church of God.
The only thing I want is for us to humble ourselves and repent of our iniquities as a people.
It's nothing personal either, I would just like for us to worthily uphold what the Lord is counting on us to do.

Read the chapter before (ch.7).
Then read the chapter after (ch.9).
That should give you some context.

Then ask yourself some questions, such as:
Who adorns their church's?
Who sells forgiveness of sins?
What year was it when Moroni wrote this?
What was the state of the Christian church among the Gentiles at that time?
Why did Moroni switch from present tense to past tense?

When you do this you will clearly see that Moroni was not talking about the modern LDS Church. In fact, it is obvious he isn't.
One final question.
If you are still of the same mind then explain how it could be be interpreted in 1829 when the BoM was first published and there was no LDS Church. Or on the 5th April 1830, and so on.

Let's say I'm happy to concede your point.
The point remains, if the shoe fits, wear it.
We are degenerating in a very similar manner as the Catholics of old.
Odd thing is, we are getting a Papacy much sooner than they did.

ebenezerarise wrote: Really. Show me ONE link, ONE verifiable statistic, ONE instance where there is a single starving child within the boundaries of ANY stake of Zion that the Church has NOT helped????

The church spends countless millions on relief all over the world. COUNTLESS. And there is plenty of proof of that.

The Liahona Children Foundation was set up for that very reason. The church wasn't helping these children, so the foundation was set up to fed them.
You can see a list of stakes that still need help. http://www.liahonachildren.org/#/adopt_a_stake

IF you want some reading material, I suggest this (it's saved on my google drive) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxLphP ... sp=sharing

This is from the article

This study will demonstrate that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has at least 375,000 faithful and active members living in dire poverty in the less developed countries (LDCs) of the Western Hemisphere and elsewhere. Included among these are 50,000 malnourished and growth-stunted children under the age of fifteen, two thousand annual cases of severe, preventable disability other than growth-stunting,and nine hundred annual, preventable deaths (mainly children under fifteen). In some of the wards, 80 percent of the children are chronically malnourished and/or dying of malnutrition.

jockeybox wrote:

ebenezerarise wrote: Really. Show me ONE link, ONE verifiable statistic, ONE instance where there is a single starving child within the boundaries of ANY stake of Zion that the Church has NOT helped????

The church spends countless millions on relief all over the world. COUNTLESS. And there is plenty of proof of that.

The Liahona Children Foundation was set up for that very reason. The church wasn't helping these children, so the foundation was set up to fed them.
You can see a list of stakes that still need help. http://www.liahonachildren.org/#/adopt_a_stake

IF you want some reading material, I suggest this (it's saved on my google drive) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxLphP ... sp=sharing

This is from the article

This study will demonstrate that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has at least 375,000 faithful and active members living in dire poverty in the less developed countries (LDCs) of the Western Hemisphere and elsewhere. Included among these are 50,000 malnourished and growth-stunted children under the age of fifteen, two thousand annual cases of severe, preventable disability other than growth-stunting,and nine hundred annual, preventable deaths (mainly children under fifteen). In some of the wards, 80 percent of the children are chronically malnourished and/or dying of malnutrition.

If we used the United Order economic system like it is supposed to be used per the Doctrine and Covenants, this poverty would be ended almost overnight and without anything being done via a welfare dole. If the surplus wealth of all of the saints was consecrated then it would be a very simple matter to have resources in store to make all of this work.

Robin Hood wrote:

jwharton wrote:

Mormon 8
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies--because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

When read in context it is clear this isn't about us.
A lot of people want it to be, but it's not.

Of course it applies to us, "for I did liken all scriptures unto us, that it might be for our profit and learning".

If your not doing this what the hell are you reading them for? Passing interest in other peoples sins? Chapter 8 is addressed to those who receive the record. Have you received it? Chapter 9 is addresses to non-believers. Hell, even modern LDS leaders have likened this scripture to us.

Ezra Taft Benson said in "the Book of Mormon-Keystone of Our Religion"

Mormon himself said, “Yea, I speak unto you, ye remnant of the house of Israel” (Morm. 7:1). And Moroni, the last of the inspired writers, actually saw our day and time. “Behold,” he said, “the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

“Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing” (Morm. 8:34–35).

If they saw our day and chose those things which would be of greatest worth to us, is not that how we should study the Book of Mormon? We should constantly ask ourselves, “Why did the Lord inspire Mormon (or Moroni or Alma) to include that in his record? What lesson can I learn from that to help me live in this day and age?”

"Moroni’s last words to the members of the Church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future." - L. Tom Perry

He then quotes the very verses being discussed. The entire talk is worth a read: “Behold, the Lord Hath Shown unto Me Great and Marvelous Things”

"The Book of Mormon was written for us today. God is the author of the book. It is a record of a fallen people, compiled by inspired men for our blessing today. Those people never had the book—it was meant for us. Mormon, the ancient prophet after whom the book is named, abridged centuries of records. God, who knows the end from the beginning, told him what to include in his abridgment that we would need for our day. Mormon turned the records over to his son Moroni, the last recorder; and Moroni, writing over 1,500 years ago but speaking to us today, states: “Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.”" - Ezra Taft Benson (GC, April 1975)

"... [F]or whom was the Book of Mormon meant? Moroni, the book’s last writer, speaking to us said, “Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.” God inspired Mormon, its chief compiler, to put into the book what we would need in our day." - Ezra Taft Benson (GC, October 1984)

"Besides, the prophets, who are the major makers of our spiritual memory, saw not only their own times, but ours as well; they have communicated with us as if we were present, for “behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing”" - Neal A Maxwell (GC, October 1986)

clarkkent14 wrote:

"Moroni’s last words to the members of the Church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future." - L. Tom Perry

He then quotes the very verses being discussed. The entire talk is worth a read: “Behold, the Lord Hath Shown unto Me Great and Marvelous Things”

"The Book of Mormon was written for us today. God is the author of the book. It is a record of a fallen people, compiled by inspired men for our blessing today. Those people never had the book—it was meant for us. Mormon, the ancient prophet after whom the book is named, abridged centuries of records. God, who knows the end from the beginning, told him what to include in his abridgment that we would need for our day. Mormon turned the records over to his son Moroni, the last recorder; and Moroni, writing over 1,500 years ago but speaking to us today, states: “Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.”" - Ezra Taft Benson (GC, April 1975)

"... [F]or whom was the Book of Mormon meant? Moroni, the book’s last writer, speaking to us said, “Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.” God inspired Mormon, its chief compiler, to put into the book what we would need in our day." - Ezra Taft Benson (GC, October 1984)

"Besides, the prophets, who are the major makers of our spiritual memory, saw not only their own times, but ours as well; they have communicated with us as if we were present, for “behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing”" - Neal A Maxwell (GC, October 1986)

Odd, but wouldn't quoting modern prophets' statements against the behavior of some church members actually stand as proof that there are true watchmen on the tower? We can't accuse them of being false prophets and then quote them as true prophets at the same time. :-\

iWriteStuff wrote:Odd, but wouldn't quoting modern prophets' statements against the behavior of some church members actually stand as proof that there are true watchmen on the tower? We can't accuse them of being false prophets and then quote them as true prophets at the same time. :-\

What's odd is there are so many contradictory things we have to sort through in order to get at the actual truth.

For example, I'm treated like an apostate because I believe the early endowment correctly taught that Adam was a resurrected being. Here we have what was supposed to be the pinnacle of empowering information to endow us from on high to bring in the Father's Kingdom in victory that has now been deemed heresy and we have fallen back to what amounts to nothing more than the orthodox Christian doctrine concerning Adam.

There used to be great effort put into us keeping the Celestial Laws of the Father's Plan and we had many glorious promises that were associated with building up the Father's Celestial Order. But, sadly, these higher laws are now severely neglected at best and in many cases are treated with contempt. And, rather than recognize that all promises from the Father are now null and void, we have this notion that things have never been better.

Things are falling into a mass of confusion and contradiction because we have indeed lost our way and the condemnation we have been under for over 150 years is taking its toll and will continue to take its toll. The adversary is having his way with us increment by increment and we are indeed overcome and being taken for a spoil, just as scripture prophesies.

That is what is going on here and it isn't the leader's fault it is all of our faults.

jwharton wrote: Nobody is saying the people have dictatorial power in this regard.
But, they do have the power to petition for redress of grievances.

I completely disagree with this. This is the Lord's Church, not a republic.

Also, we have the right and the responsibility to opt to oppose officers who are neglecting their duties.

I quasi agree. We have the right and responsibility to sustain or not based upon what we know of that person. But neglect? Not sure that is our call unless you've got information that the powers that be don't.

If we suffer our leadership to fall out of integrity with the oracles of God and we don't oppose such, we share the responsibility.

That's where you fail in your thinking. The leadership ARE the oracles of God. You cannot compare Thomas S. Monson to Heber J. Grant. The Lord speaks to the present Prophet as today's circumstances require. To hold the present leadership to 19th Century standards is a fallacy. We believe in continuing revelation -- both for them and for ourselves.

It is upon this principle and basis that the leaders cannot lead the people astray because we all share the responsibility together.

Wrong again. That is the work of the Lord. And by revelation you will know it.

jwharton wrote:
it isn't the leader's fault it is all of our faults.

Finally, something we can agree on :ymapplause:

jockeybox wrote: The Liahona Children Foundation was set up for that very reason. The church wasn't helping these children, so the foundation was set up to fed them.
You can see a list of stakes that still need help. http://www.liahonachildren.org/#/adopt_a_stake

The Liahona Children's Foundation is not affiliated with the Church. Their efforts are "justified" as a 501c3 in the United States but supposedly a lot of their work is abroad. Interestingly their finances are completely closed and nobody can see them.

Their efforts are being hijacked by anti-Mormon voices to provide "proof" the LDS church is neglecting the poor. I doubt the Foundation appreciates or approves of that.

Instead of posting stuff like this why don't you take a trip to some place like Ecuador and see what the Church is doing there, if it so concerns you.

I have a member of my ward who is a dentist. Three times a year he travels to different parts of the world to donate his professional services. He coordinates this through the Church, and the Church sometimes utilizes his service in ways that they coordinate or partners with other organizations -- maybe even Liahona, I I don't know -- to see that the needs of people are met. None of this requires the use of money, by the way.

But without exception he comes home and he testifies of what the Church is doing in these areas. The Church just takes care of business. They don't report it or flaunt it. They just do as the Spirit directs.

Separatist wrote:If your not doing this what the hell are you reading them for? Passing interest in other peoples sins?

:ymapplause:

Separatist wrote:If your not doing this what the hell are you reading them for? Passing interest in other peoples sins?

That cuts both ways. Motes and Beams and whatnot.

iWriteStuff wrote:Odd, but wouldn't quoting modern prophets' statements against the behavior of some church members actually stand as proof that there are true watchmen on the tower? We can't accuse them of being false prophets and then quote them as true prophets at the same time. :-\

No, the point is that those who argue that Mormon isn't talking about US, are then speaking against and contrary to those who they revere as "prophets." It doesn't matter what my view on their status of "prophets" is, it does matter to those who subscribe to following them. If those who "follow" these men disagree with them, well then they are in an interesting predicament in my opinion.

ebenezerarise wrote:

jwharton wrote: If we suffer our leadership to fall out of integrity with the oracles of God and we don't oppose such, we share the responsibility.

That's where you fail in your thinking. The leadership ARE the oracles of God. You cannot compare Thomas S. Monson to Heber J. Grant. The Lord speaks to the present Prophet as today's circumstances require. To hold the present leadership to 19th Century standards is a fallacy. We believe in continuing revelation -- both for them and for ourselves.

According to the Lord through Joseph Smith, oracles are revelations not people (D&C 90:4-5; 124:39,126; etc.).