Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

[ebenezerarise]

Doesn't this beg the very question in controversy . With the financial records a secret ( unlike the first 100 years of the church ) HOW do you know ?

Clearly you know next to nothing about the first 100 years of the restored Church. Let's see those records, eh?

That's as made up as your other claims about the Church's donations in Canada or England. You spout a lot but don't back it up with links as proof. Surely such proof exists, right? Surely the whole anti world would be screaming it, supported by the media, right? Not happening.

If you are a member of the Church you are blessed. It is a privilege to part of the Lord's kingdom. It is too bad you spend your time tearing it down rather than building it up.

I have a young cousin serving a mission in Africa. He's a Millennial -- poor thing -- so his attitude about the church as waffled somewhere near your own as he has endured countless lies thrown at him from his peers. In the more than a year since he's been in Africa he claims his eyes have been fully opened about what the Church does. Money spent on relief, schools, and even building clean water systems -- things he would never see here and on a scale that only the very prideful would talk about.

That's not the Church's way but that seems to be the way you want it to be. Like you're some authority with a right to know how every dime is spent. Your lack of faith is so great you have to SEE.

You will have your reward.

[Separatist]

And if you're giving tithing and then demanding an accounting for it...have you really given it?

This is true as far as it goes. But then when you catch wind of potential salaried leaders (see my post above), or the church building high end malls, you have a right and duty as a member to ask, and they have a responsibility/duty to disclose, not just offer the rhetorical "trust me". There are responsibilities all around.

[Mark]

Yep. I have thought a lot about it. Like the words salary and stipend. Tithing and donation.

17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

But what would Paul know?? Too bad you weren't there to accuse him.

24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

25 And now when ye talk, ye say: If our days had been in the days of our fathers of old, we would not have slain the prophets; we would not have stoned them, and cast them out.

It is interesting to observe the similarities of attitudes today compared to those at the time of Joseph. Joseph was quoted by Heber C Kimball as saying that "the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy.” Many of the faithful apostles chosen by Joseph related that Joseph basically repeated that same sentiment in multiple settings. There is an entire chapter in the teachings of Joseph Smith manual devoted to this principle of the bitter fruits of apostasy.
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-jo ... 7?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have thought about the scriptures Shadow has quoted above lately and I see a type of stoning of the Prophets happening in our day even on this site as more and more get caught up in losing confidence in their file leaders and begin to question their integrity and prophetic call. Over and over they think the worst of those called to the holy apostleship in their stewardship responsibilities and even compare their actions to wicked and adulterous figures of the past who rebelled against the Lords church in scripture. They see the warnings of Mormon 8 as a direct comparison to these mens actions of governing the church and decry them as hypocrites for polluting the holy church of God. They see them as mismanaging the Lords funds for their own benefit and using those funds to build up babylon directly in opposition to their commissioned callings. These P/S/R are mocked and rejected because they are assumed to be out of the way and no longer principled or inspired in directing the financial affair of the church properly in building the kingdom. Boo and Thomas are but 2 of many more examples of like minded members who think like this and frankly have rejected those who administer the affairs of the church and cast them out of their hearts. Does this not qualify as "the very step of apostasy"?

[jwharton]

24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

You would equate them being constructively criticized with this?

[iWriteStuff]

24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

Uh, seriously? You would equate them being constructively criticized with this?

Aren't you the same person who compared the apostles to murderous, lecherous wine bibbers building monuments unto themselves to gratify their pride while grinding on the backs of the poor? :-w

Seems comparisons can be extreme in both directions.

[jwharton]

24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

Uh, seriously? You would equate them being constructively criticized with this?

Aren't you the same person who compared the apostles to murderous, lecherous wine bibbers building monuments unto themselves to gratify their pride while grinding on the backs of the poor? :-w

Seems comparisons can be extreme in both directions.

Spiritually speaking, that case could indeed be raised.

D&C 107 indicates it is fully within our right to raise up a controversy against them.

80 And after this decision it shall be had in remembrance no more before the Lord; for this is the highest council of the church of God, and a final decision upon controversies in spiritual matters.
81 There is not any person belonging to the church who is exempt from this council of the church.
82 And inasmuch as a President of the High Priesthood shall transgress, he shall be had in remembrance before the common council of the church, who shall be assisted by twelve counselors of the High Priesthood;
83 And their decision upon his head shall be an end of controversy concerning him.
84 Thus, none shall be exempted from the justice and the laws of God, that all things may be done in order and in solemnity before him, according to truth and righteousness.

We have every right to call upon our leaders to walk a good walk and to perform their duties in truth and righteousness and raise up a controversy if they aren't. That's what makes us a body unified in a covenant where all are responsible and none are exempt.

If the general authorities receive money for their labors then so should everyone else in the entire church receive money for theirs.
Otherwise, them being paid large sums of money and living in luxury while others in the body are starving for want of a good meal, there is iniquity.

[iWriteStuff]

24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

Uh, seriously? You would equate them being constructively criticized with this?

Aren't you the same person who compared the apostles to murderous, lecherous wine bibbers building monuments unto themselves to gratify their pride while grinding on the backs of the poor? :-w

Seems comparisons can be extreme in both directions.

Spiritually speaking, that case could indeed be raised.

"Spiritually speaking", then, the case could be made that you

do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

Don't be dishing it out if you can't take it when it comes back around.

For the record, there is nothing constructive in comparing them to murderous, lecherous idolaters. That's a flat out false accusation of the most slanderous nature.

[jwharton]

Yep. I have thought a lot about it. Like the words salary and stipend. Tithing and donation.

17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

But what would Paul know?? Too bad you weren't there to accuse him.

24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

25 And now when ye talk, ye say: If our days had been in the days of our fathers of old, we would not have slain the prophets; we would not have stoned them, and cast them out.

It is interesting to observe the similarities of attitudes today compared to those at the time of Joseph. Joseph was quoted by Heber C Kimball as saying that "the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy.” Many of the faithful apostles chosen by Joseph related that Joseph basically repeated that same sentiment in multiple settings. There is an entire chapter in the teachings of Joseph Smith manual devoted to this principle of the bitter fruits of apostasy.
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-jo ... 7?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have thought about the scriptures Shadow has quoted above lately and I see a type of stoning of the Prophets happening in our day even on this site as more and more get caught up in losing confidence in their file leaders and begin to question their integrity and prophetic call. Over and over they think the worst of those called to the holy apostleship in their stewardship responsibilities and even compare their actions to wicked and adulterous figures of the past who rebelled against the Lords church in scripture. They see the warnings of Mormon 8 as a direct comparison to these mens actions of governing the church and decry them as hypocrites for polluting the holy church of God. They see them as mismanaging the Lords funds for their own benefit and using those funds to build up babylon directly in opposition to their commissioned callings. These P/S/R are mocked and rejected because they are assumed to be out of the way and no longer principled or inspired in directing the financial affair of the church properly in building the kingdom. Boo and Thomas are but 2 of many more examples of like minded members who think like this and frankly have rejected those who administer the affairs of the church and cast them out of their hearts. Does this not qualify as "the very step of apostasy"?

What about Abinadi?
What about John the Baptist?

Both of these individuals went before the established spiritual authorities of their day and called them to repentance.
We are talking about the entire religious hierarchy of the time including the presiding high priest in the seat of Moses.

Jesus said that John the Baptist was the greatest Prophet who had ever lived and he minced not his words to condemn their iniquity.

You should consider that you have it reversed. Look at the verses following what you quoted.

24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.
25 And now when ye talk, ye say: If our days had been in the days of our fathers of old, we would not have slain the prophets; we would not have stoned them, and cast them out.
26 Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.
27 But behold, if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: Walk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth--and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a prophet.
28 Yea, ye will lift him up, and ye will give unto him of your substance; ye will give unto him of your gold, and of your silver, and ye will clothe him with costly apparel; and because he speaketh flattering words unto you, and he saith that all is well, then ye will not find fault with him.
29 O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?

It is obvious here that this message is intended for people who have suffered themselves to become under the leadership of false prophets who say flattering things and that say "all is well" and that seek out the riches and treasures and the praise and gain of the world.

All those here on this forum who bring forth the word of God to testify of our iniquities, whether member or leader alike, are doing so not for riches, not to flatter, not to gain praise and gain of the world. This is being done by those who have been moved upon by the Holy Ghost to cry out repentance and to rid our garments of the stains of iniquity of the pollution that is so rampant.

[Robin Hood]

Mormon 8
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies--because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

When read in context it is clear this isn't about us.
A lot of people want it to be, but it's not.

[jwharton]

Uh, seriously? You would equate them being constructively criticized with this?

Aren't you the same person who compared the apostles to murderous, lecherous wine bibbers building monuments unto themselves to gratify their pride while grinding on the backs of the poor? :-w

Seems comparisons can be extreme in both directions.

Spiritually speaking, that case could indeed be raised.

"Spiritually speaking", then, the case could be made that you

do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

Don't be dishing it out if you can't take it when it comes back around.

For the record, there is nothing constructive in comparing them to murderous, lecherous idolaters. That's a flat out false accusation of the most slanderous nature.

The "casting of stones" is performed AFTER there has been a hearing and a judgment of guilty of a capital offense has been made.
The extent to which I have gone is to preach against the sin of infidelity in the matters of performing our stewardships.
And, my intent for doing so isn't to condemn and be able to pick up stones to hurl at anyone, but rather so that redemption can come.
Yes, the woman taken in adultery very likely was actually guilty, but it is my intent to also say "go thy way and sin no more".
I have no intent to actually see to it that anyone be excommunicated and I am in no position of authority to do such anyway.

[jockeybox]

In one breath you accuse the Church of gross mismanagement that is so bad they can't meet their obligations and at the same time you make them responsible for all the starving children of the world. Why such logic?

Today there are many LDS children, literally starving to death. Stunted growth. Brain degradation. Sometimes getting one meal a day.

Think about that for a second. How many kids could you look in the eye or watch them die in order for an improvement downtown.

Today, approximately $600,000 would ensure all the stakes with starving children would have enough to eat. That is a pittance compared to what was spent on the mall.

Can you see why some people might question the spending of Billions, when 600K could do so much good. It does make wonder wonder about priorities.

[shadow]

Were the early saints casting stones at Joseph and Sidney who rejected the High Councils decision to pay them a salary?

After negotiations, they agreed to offer Rigdon and Smith an annual contract of $1,100 apiece, more than three times what the average worker of the day could earn. Ebenezer Robinson, the High Council's clerk, later wrote that "when it was noised abroad that the Council had taken such a step, the members of the Church, almost to a man, lifted their voices against it. The expression of disapprobation was so strong and emphatic that at the next meeting of the High Council, the resolution voting them a salary was rescinded." (Richard S. Van Wagoner, Sidney Rigdon, Pg 230.)

I propose they were doing their duty as members.

Actually, the council had no business leaking its business. But that's neither here nor there.

The fact is they were paid. Maybe not an annual salary at that time, but they were paid.
Heck, until the very late 1800's and even into the early 1900's a patriarchal blessing was charged a fee.
Bishops were paid 10% of tithing they collected and stake presidents were paid about 20% of what the bishops collected. This is all during Joseph's tenure. In fact, the first presidency's personal debts were to be paid by the church, and that's in addition to what the church paid them. This is all during Joseph's tenure as well.
So when you stone today's prophets for getting a stipend, you're also stoning Joseph. The church paid him. But it's doctrinal- it's in the revelations found in the D&C.

[Separatist]

Actually the issue was that the members could speak out, and the leaders listened. Not only in this case but when Joseph proposed to remove Rigdon from the FP, the members rejected the proposal.

You're suggesting the members just shut the hell up.

[Mark]

Yep. I have thought a lot about it. Like the words salary and stipend. Tithing and donation.

17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

But what would Paul know?? Too bad you weren't there to accuse him.

24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

25 And now when ye talk, ye say: If our days had been in the days of our fathers of old, we would not have slain the prophets; we would not have stoned them, and cast them out.

It is interesting to observe the similarities of attitudes today compared to those at the time of Joseph. Joseph was quoted by Heber C Kimball as saying that "the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy.” Many of the faithful apostles chosen by Joseph related that Joseph basically repeated that same sentiment in multiple settings. There is an entire chapter in the teachings of Joseph Smith manual devoted to this principle of the bitter fruits of apostasy.
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-jo ... 7?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have thought about the scriptures Shadow has quoted above lately and I see a type of stoning of the Prophets happening in our day even on this site as more and more get caught up in losing confidence in their file leaders and begin to question their integrity and prophetic call. Over and over they think the worst of those called to the holy apostleship in their stewardship responsibilities and even compare their actions to wicked and adulterous figures of the past who rebelled against the Lords church in scripture. They see the warnings of Mormon 8 as a direct comparison to these mens actions of governing the church and decry them as hypocrites for polluting the holy church of God. They see them as mismanaging the Lords funds for their own benefit and using those funds to build up babylon directly in opposition to their commissioned callings. These P/S/R are mocked and rejected because they are assumed to be out of the way and no longer principled or inspired in directing the financial affair of the church properly in building the kingdom. Boo and Thomas are but 2 of many more examples of like minded members who think like this and frankly have rejected those who administer the affairs of the church and cast them out of their hearts. Does this not qualify as "the very step of apostasy"?

What about Abinadi?
What about John the Baptist?

Both of these individuals went before the established spiritual authorities of their day and called them to repentance.
We are talking about the entire religious hierarchy of the time including the presiding high priest in the seat of Moses.

Jesus said that John the Baptist was the greatest Prophet who had ever lived and he minced not his words to condemn their iniquity.

You should consider that you have it reversed. Look at the verses following what you quoted.

24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.
25 And now when ye talk, ye say: If our days had been in the days of our fathers of old, we would not have slain the prophets; we would not have stoned them, and cast them out.
26 Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.
27 But behold, if a man shall come among you and shall say: Do this, and there is no iniquity; do that and ye shall not suffer; yea, he will say: Walk after the pride of your own hearts; yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth--and if a man shall come among you and say this, ye will receive him, and say that he is a prophet.
28 Yea, ye will lift him up, and ye will give unto him of your substance; ye will give unto him of your gold, and of your silver, and ye will clothe him with costly apparel; and because he speaketh flattering words unto you, and he saith that all is well, then ye will not find fault with him.
29 O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?

It is obvious here that this message is intended for people who have suffered themselves to become under the leadership of false prophets who say flattering things and that say "all is well" and that seek out the riches and treasures and the praise and gain of the world.

All those here on this forum who bring forth the word of God to testify of our iniquities, whether member or leader alike, are doing so not for riches, not to flatter, not to gain praise and gain of the world. This is being done by those who have been moved upon by the Holy Ghost to cry out repentance and to rid our garments of the stains of iniquity of the pollution that is so rampant.

I rest my case. Sorry I slighted you JWharton and didnt specifically name you along with Boo and Thomas as ones who qualifies for taking that very step of apostasy. Your critical attitudes toward the leadership of TCOJCOLDS put you at the top of that list. Just a friendly tip. They would love you at the New Order Mormon site. You would fit right in. You should pull it up and start pontificating there. Maybe you already do?

[jwharton]

Mormon 8
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies--because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

When read in context it is clear this isn't about us.
A lot of people want it to be, but it's not.

Want has nothing to do with it.
It is a message intended for those who actually read the Book of Mormon who are the Holy Church of God.
The only thing I want is for us to humble ourselves and repent of our iniquities as a people.
It's nothing personal either, I would just like for us to worthily uphold what the Lord is counting on us to do.

[shadow]

24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

You would equate them being constructively criticized with this?

No and yes. "Constructively"? No. It's not constructive. There's nothing constructive about it. "Criticizing"? Yes.
The rejection of today's prophets is the same as casting them out. That's what many here have done, particularly the Snuffer folks. They also mock them. They compare them to King Noah etc.
so yes, I equate that scripture to them. Do they slay them? No, not physically. Spiritually these naysayers have killed the prophets in their own lives. They leave the church, some just go inactive, some are excommed and some ask to be removed from the Books. For the complainer, the prophets have been slayed. They've separated themselves from the prophets. Buuuut, they can't leave the prophets alone- always complaining and throwing stones of words at them.

[jwharton]

I rest my case. Sorry I slighted you JWharton and didnt specifically name you along with Boo and Thomas as ones who qualifies for taking that very step of apostasy. Your critical attitudes toward the leadership of TCOJCOLDS put you at the top of that list. Just a friendly tip. They would love you at the New Order Mormon site. You would fit right in. You should pull it up and start pontificating there. Maybe you already do?

I have not crossed any lines, so far as apostasy is concerned, and I have no outside affiliations.
I am merely someone who desires to take the warnings in the scriptures seriously and for all of us to repent.
I do not view leaders as being above reproach any more than any other individuals are above reproach.
We are all in this together and the Lord did give the people the means to provide a balance of power.
It is actually apostasy against the word of the Lord to deny someone their rights in relation to this.

[jwharton]

24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

You would equate them being constructively criticized with this?

No and yes. "Constructively"? No. It's not constructive. There's nothing constructive about it. "Criticizing"? Yes.
The rejection of today's prophets is the same as casting them out. That's what many here have done, particularly the Snuffer folks. They also mock them. They compare them to King Noah etc.
so yes, I equate that scripture to them. Do they slay them? No, not physically. Spiritually these naysayers have killed the prophets in their own lives. They leave the church, some just go inactive, some are excommed and some ask to be removed from the Books. For the complainer, the prophets have been slayed. They've separated themselves from the prophets. Buuuut, they can't leave the prophets alone- always complaining and throwing stones of words at them.

You don't get it. These people aren't spiritually slaying the leaders.
They are not having them excommunicated and denied the "breath of life".
These are people who are spiritually slaying themselves.
They are doing it out of desperation to try and draw attention to their grievances.
How many spiritual body bags do the martyrs need to fill before we wake up?

[shadow]

Actually the issue was that the members could speak out, and the leaders listened. Not only in this case but when Joseph proposed to remove Rigdon from the FP, the members rejected the proposal.

You're suggesting the members just shut the hell up.

No, I'm suggesting the members consent when they choose to sustain or when they oppose. I'm not opposed to opposing. I've never done it, but I know it's been done before by majority rule.

[shadow]

24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

You would equate them being constructively criticized with this?

No and yes. "Constructively"? No. It's not constructive. There's nothing constructive about it. "Criticizing"? Yes.
The rejection of today's prophets is the same as casting them out. That's what many here have done, particularly the Snuffer folks. They also mock them. They compare them to King Noah etc.
so yes, I equate that scripture to them. Do they slay them? No, not physically. Spiritually these naysayers have killed the prophets in their own lives. They leave the church, some just go inactive, some are excommed and some ask to be removed from the Books. For the complainer, the prophets have been slayed. They've separated themselves from the prophets. Buuuut, they can't leave the prophets alone- always complaining and throwing stones of words at them.

You don't get it. These people aren't spiritually slaying the leaders.
They are not having them excommunicated and denied the "breath of life".
These are people who are spiritually slaying themselves.
They are doing it out of desperation to try and draw attention to their grievances.
How many spiritual body bags do the martyrs need to fill before we wake up?

Consider that it's you who doesn't get it.

Are those who left the church because of Joseph's actions considered "martyrs"? 8-|

[jwharton]

Actually the issue was that the members could speak out, and the leaders listened. Not only in this case but when Joseph proposed to remove Rigdon from the FP, the members rejected the proposal.

You're suggesting the members just shut the hell up.

No, I'm suggesting the members consent when they choose to sustain or when they oppose. I'm not opposed to opposing. I've never done it, but I know it's been done before by majority rule.

Please rephrase you point here.
Are we permitted to raise up a controversy against officers and have due process performed to settle the matter or not?

[underdog]

But I want to know this: why is it ANYBODY's business how the Church spends a dime or what it spends it's money on? The point of tithing is to remind us that everything belongs to the Lord. Not 10% -- but all of it. And if you're giving tithing and then demanding an accounting for it...have you really given it?

I think I'll just let the Lord run the Church. I'll worry about my own affairs.

I am reluctant to contribute to the longevity of this tread but feel compelled to offer a little historical perspective E. From approximately 1840 to 1959 the church was open about its financial disclosures to members . As part of the April conference there would be a detailed financial report by the church auditing committee which disclosed detailed income and expense figures .This was done for more than one hundred years and required by Presidents of the church from Joseph through David McKay . In 1959 the report ran 9 pages . Look it up .Why was this done? Because there was a recognition that the rule of common consent by which the Lord requires his church to operate requires that members have an understanding of church governance that includes its finances before they can give an informed consent or sustaining of its officers. In 1960 suddenly and without explanation the reporting STOPPED. Why? No one in authority ever said . The rumors are that the church had so mismanaged its funds so as to be on the verge of bankruptcy . One of my relatives was in the 12 and I know there wasn't even money for him to draw his monthly stipend . If you want to see the abuses that really go on look at the required reporting the church has to make in Canada or Great Britain. It is online . look it up if you dare. See how they collect millions in humanitarian relief for foreign disasters but only actually expend a small portion of that for relief. The rest goes into general funds including to pay salaries of church personnel . Someone in GB ( a church employee ) is making $250,000 / year . Half of all tithing collected in Canada is spent on BYU.The often repeated rumor which has never been denied is that new GAs get 1 million when called and their modest stipend is well in excess of 1/2 million a year. All while LDS children around the world suffer from malnutrition and in some cases starve to death . Need confirmation ? Look at the Liahona Childrens Foundation website. Darn it I had not intended to speak so harshly and would like to throw a cloak of charity around those who make spending decisions but based on the available evidence everything I said is unfortunately true. Please please prove me wrong . A simple return to the church's practice of over 100 years would remove the rumors, innuendo and stumbling blocks that presently exist. Yet they steadfastly refuse to answer the simplest of questions . Why ? I disagree with JW on lots of things but his view of the present condition of the Church is like Moroni's in Mormon 8 essentially correct - Unfortunately . It is a shame but the facts are that we have " polluted the holy church of God". Mormon 8 :38. E . oh how I wish it were otherwise. Incidentally your attitude is part of the problem.

Boo, what a disgusting picture you just painted with your post above. Part of repentance is an acknowledgment of sin. For some of my Mormon brethren who think we are immune from apostasy, perhaps this Patrick Henry quote may shake you from your slumber:

"It is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth - and listen to the song of that syren, till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those, who having eyes, see not, and having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it might cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it."

Seems the Church in SLC has been polluted, the hierarchy esp. The rank and file Mormons are mostly ignorant.

But as for the leadership, of them and those who blindly follow Isaiah said in ISA 28:1: "Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!" They should beware, because "The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet, and the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower..."

[jwharton]

You would equate them being constructively criticized with this?

No and yes. "Constructively"? No. It's not constructive. There's nothing constructive about it. "Criticizing"? Yes.
The rejection of today's prophets is the same as casting them out. That's what many here have done, particularly the Snuffer folks. They also mock them. They compare them to King Noah etc.
so yes, I equate that scripture to them. Do they slay them? No, not physically. Spiritually these naysayers have killed the prophets in their own lives. They leave the church, some just go inactive, some are excommed and some ask to be removed from the Books. For the complainer, the prophets have been slayed. They've separated themselves from the prophets. Buuuut, they can't leave the prophets alone- always complaining and throwing stones of words at them.

You don't get it. These people aren't spiritually slaying the leaders.
They are not having them excommunicated and denied the "breath of life".
These are people who are spiritually slaying themselves.
They are doing it out of desperation to try and draw attention to their grievances.
How many spiritual body bags do the martyrs need to fill before we wake up?

Consider that it's you who doesn't get it.

Are those who left the church because of Joseph's actions considered "martyrs"? 8-|

Maybe and maybe not. God will be the judge of that.
I am certain Joseph felt sorrow and remorse over it and was likely positively influenced on many occasions from that sorrow.
But, the point remains, when you are talking about spiritual death, that power rests in the hands of bishops and stake presidents.
I don't have the power or the ability to actually commit spiritual capital punishment so you have no basis to accuse me of committing such.

[Separatist]

Actually the issue was that the members could speak out, and the leaders listened. Not only in this case but when Joseph proposed to remove Rigdon from the FP, the members rejected the proposal.

You're suggesting the members just shut the hell up.

No, I'm suggesting the members consent when they choose to sustain or when they oppose. I'm not opposed to opposing. I've never done it, but I know it's been done before by majority rule.

I would suggest a person doesn't need to oppose with hand raised in order to bring issues up. I would suggest the very idea of sustaining IS to bring up issues that may be problematic, otherwise we weaken our influence we could have on our leaders and become mere yes-men automations.

BY:

...I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give their leaders...

I have a hard time believing the God in Heaven who does not upbraid for asking questions, has given the power to man to upbraid in His stead regarding financial integrity.

[ebenezerarise]

Today there are many LDS children, literally starving to death. Stunted growth. Brain degradation. Sometimes getting one meal a day.

Think about that for a second. How many kids could you look in the eye or watch them die in order for an improvement downtown.

Today, approximately $600,000 would ensure all the stakes with starving children would have enough to eat. That is a pittance compared to what was spent on the mall.

Can you see why some people might question the spending of Billions, when 600K could do so much good. It does make wonder wonder about priorities.

Really. Show me ONE link, ONE verifiable statistic, ONE instance where there is a single starving child within the boundaries of ANY stake of Zion that the Church has NOT helped????

The church spends countless millions on relief all over the world. COUNTLESS. And there is plenty of proof of that.