Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

[ebenezerarise]

No, I don't know the details, but I do know this-
"The church is undertaking a huge development project in the interest of protecting the environment of Temple Square. While the costs will be great, it will not involve the expenditure of tithing funds." Pres. Hinckley
Maybe you don't believe him, but I do.

Well, I do know the details as I was there -- not to mention this was a project that was very public in nature and was, in fact, a collaboration between the Church and the City of Salt Lake. The goal was to protect the environment of Temple Square. Mission accomplished. It's a different world downtown in Salt Lake and it has led to greater development beyond the mall along Main Street and off to the east and west of Temple Square.

This is a global Church. What the world sees and thinks when it comes to Church headquarters is important.

But I want to know this: why is it ANYBODY's business how the Church spends a dime or what it spends it's money on? The point of tithing is to remind us that everything belongs to the Lord. Not 10% -- but all of it. And if you're giving tithing and then demanding an accounting for it...have you really given it?

I think I'll just let the Lord run the Church. I'll worry about my own affairs.

[jwharton]

No, I don't know the details, but I do know this-
"The church is undertaking a huge development project in the interest of protecting the environment of Temple Square. While the costs will be great, it will not involve the expenditure of tithing funds." Pres. Hinckley
Maybe you don't believe him, but I do.

Well, I do know the details as I was there -- not to mention this was a project that was very public in nature and was, in fact, a collaboration between the Church and the City of Salt Lake. The goal was to protect the environment of Temple Square. Mission accomplished. It's a different world downtown in Salt Lake and it has led to greater development beyond the mall along Main Street and off to the east and west of Temple Square.

This is a global Church. What the world sees and thinks when it comes to Church headquarters is important.

But I want to know this: why is it ANYBODY's business how the Church spends a dime or what it spends it's money on? The point of tithing is to remind us that everything belongs to the Lord. Not 10% -- but all of it. And if you're giving tithing and then demanding an accounting for it...have you really given it?

I think I'll just let the Lord run the Church. I'll worry about my own affairs.

If you hold the priesthood your own affairs includes sustaining or opposing what is being done in the church.
You cannot be a responsible part of a spiritual body that does all things by common consent and just abdicate your responsibility onto others.
You demonstrate here the very mindset that gives great power to the anti-Christ.
The Church deserves to know exactly what is being done with the money that is our common inheritance.
Having some bean counter stand up and say in effect:
"The church has done with your money what the church wants to do with your money" isn't exactly confidence building.

[iWriteStuff]

And if you're giving tithing and then demanding an accounting for it...have you really given it?

Instructive story.... I've got a cousin who left the church over grievances he had with leadership. Perhaps the biggest one was the mall issue. When his father asked him how much he personally gave to charity, his answer was.... nothing. And how much to tithing? Nothing. Charitable service? Nada. Apparently it was easy to complain about how uncharitable he thought the church was, but when it came to being charitable himself... Not so easy.

Do we obsess over someone else's driving? Or do we keep our eyes on the road to avoid causing accidents ourselves?

But I imagine we will probably re-litigate this issue ad nauseum no matter what anyone says.... :ymsick:

[jwharton]

And if you're giving tithing and then demanding an accounting for it...have you really given it?

Instructive story.... I've got a cousin who left the church over grievances he had with leadership. Perhaps the biggest one was the mall issue. When his father asked him how much he personally gave to charity, his answer was.... nothing. And how much to tithing? Nothing. Charitable service? Nada. Apparently it was easy to complain about how uncharitable he thought the church was, but when it came to being charitable himself... Not so easy.

Do we obsess over someone else's driving? Or do we keep our eyes on the road to avoid causing accidents ourselves?

But I imagine we will probably re-litigate this issue ad nauseum no matter what anyone says.... :ymsick:

King Noah was also really into building nice public edifices too.

[boo]

But I want to know this: why is it ANYBODY's business how the Church spends a dime or what it spends it's money on? The point of tithing is to remind us that everything belongs to the Lord. Not 10% -- but all of it. And if you're giving tithing and then demanding an accounting for it...have you really given it?

I think I'll just let the Lord run the Church. I'll worry about my own affairs.

I am reluctant to contribute to the longevity of this tread but feel compelled to offer a little historical perspective E. From approximately 1840 to 1959 the church was open about its financial disclosures to members . As part of the April conference there would be a detailed financial report by the church auditing committee which disclosed detailed income and expense figures .This was done for more than one hundred years and required by Presidents of the church from Joseph through David McKay . In 1959 the report ran 9 pages . Look it up .Why was this done? Because there was a recognition that the rule of common consent by which the Lord requires his church to operate requires that members have an understanding of church governance that includes its finances before they can give an informed consent or sustaining of its officers. In 1960 suddenly and without explanation the reporting STOPPED. Why? No one in authority ever said . The rumors are that the church had so mismanaged its funds so as to be on the verge of bankruptcy . One of my relatives was in the 12 and I know there wasn't even money for him to draw his monthly stipend . If you want to see the abuses that really go on look at the required reporting the church has to make in Canada or Great Britain. It is online . look it up if you dare. See how they collect millions in humanitarian relief for foreign disasters but only actually expend a small portion of that for relief. The rest goes into general funds including to pay salaries of church personnel . Someone in GB ( a church employee ) is making $250,000 / year . Half of all tithing collected in Canada is spent on BYU.The often repeated rumor which has never been denied is that new GAs get 1 million when called and their modest stipend is well in excess of 1/2 million a year. All while LDS children around the world suffer from malnutrition and in some cases starve to death . Need confirmation ? Look at the Liahona Childrens Foundation website. Darn it I had not intended to speak so harshly and would like to throw a cloak of charity around those who make spending decisions but based on the available evidence everything I said is unfortunately true. Please please prove me wrong . A simple return to the church's practice of over 100 years would remove the rumors, innuendo and stumbling blocks that presently exist. Yet they steadfastly refuse to answer the simplest of questions . Why ? I disagree with JW on lots of things but his view of the present condition of the Church is like Moroni's in Mormon 8 essentially correct - Unfortunately . It is a shame but the facts are that we have " polluted the holy church of God". Mormon 8 :38. E . oh how I wish it were otherwise. Incidentally your attitude is part of the problem.

[iWriteStuff]

And if you're giving tithing and then demanding an accounting for it...have you really given it?

Instructive story.... I've got a cousin who left the church over grievances he had with leadership. Perhaps the biggest one was the mall issue. When his father asked him how much he personally gave to charity, his answer was.... nothing. And how much to tithing? Nothing. Charitable service? Nada. Apparently it was easy to complain about how uncharitable he thought the church was, but when it came to being charitable himself... Not so easy.

Do we obsess over someone else's driving? Or do we keep our eyes on the road to avoid causing accidents ourselves?

But I imagine we will probably re-litigate this issue ad nauseum no matter what anyone says.... :ymsick:

King Noah was also really into building nice public edifices too.

It saddens me that you think that's a fair comparison.

[jwharton]

Instructive story.... I've got a cousin who left the church over grievances he had with leadership. Perhaps the biggest one was the mall issue. When his father asked him how much he personally gave to charity, his answer was.... nothing. And how much to tithing? Nothing. Charitable service? Nada. Apparently it was easy to complain about how uncharitable he thought the church was, but when it came to being charitable himself... Not so easy.

Do we obsess over someone else's driving? Or do we keep our eyes on the road to avoid causing accidents ourselves?

But I imagine we will probably re-litigate this issue ad nauseum no matter what anyone says.... :ymsick:

King Noah was also really into building nice public edifices too.

It saddens me that you think that's a fair comparison.

I hope this also saddens you about us:

Mormon 8
35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies--because of the praise of the world?
39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

The church spends billions to build a mall dedicated to merchandising what the Lord despises while asking people who can't even afford food and a place to live to pay 10% of their gross income first.

There is no two ways about it. We are a polluted church and I grow more and more embarrassed by it as time goes on.

[boo]

Anyone who still claims the mall was built with tithing funds is dishonest at best.
.

How do you know? Have you been given access to the church's financial records records ? How do you know it isn't part of the millions the church collected in Britain for tsunami relief that was never spent for the purpose it was collected ? This is demonstrable from the church's required disclosures as a charity in Britain. . That fact is you haven't a clue except to engage in a naive faith that when someone with religious authority speaks he will always tell the truth. This belief is also demonstrably wrong. See what the Lord said about men who basically say simply trust me and simultaneously exercise dominion and control over you. D& C 121:41 If it isn't from tithing where is it from ? From investments ? Where did the investments come from ? Tithing of course ! The fact is that everything the church has ever had is from tithing directly or indirectly. It is the worst kind of sophistry to claim investment income not tithing was used . It is ALL tithing . ps so much for my cloak of charity. I think I should stop responding to these kinds of posts. It interferes with my attempts to love the unlovable

[iWriteStuff]

Yes, obviously there are heaps of praise being thrown at the church for helping to build and protect the area around the temple grounds. 8-|

Noah had whores aplenty and killed prophets, all while sitting on his fat rear end, drinking wine and taxing the people 20% to build monuments unto his own glory. If you honestly think that's what the apostles/church are all about... I can't even begin to express my disappointment in your judgment.

I pray you won't be judged as you've judged others.

[shadow]

Anyone who still claims the mall was built with tithing funds is dishonest at best.
.

If it isn't from tithing where is it from ? From investments ? Where did the investments come from ? Tithing of course ! The fact is that everything the church has ever had is from tithing directly or indirectly. It is the worst kind of sophistry to claim investment income not tithing was used . It is ALL tithing . ps so much for my cloak of charity. I think I should stop responding to these kinds of posts. It interferes with my attempts to love the unlovable

Careful, your ignorance is showing.
Back in the 60's my mom worked for the church. Part of her job was handling properties (particularly multi-family rentals) people donated and left to the church when they died. Other people she worked with handled farms and even businesses that people donated to the church. Some left stocks and bonds and other investments. Some fool like yourself might call it tithing, but it isn't. Right after my mission I worked in home health. One of my clients, ready to die, let me know that her life insurance policy's beneficiary was the church. Tithing? Nope, not in the real world. But smart fellers like yourself can't seem to figure a donation to the church as something other than tithing. No wonder you have so many issues with the church- you either think too much or you don't think things through enough :ymsigh:

[freedomforall]

Yes, obviously there are heaps of praise being thrown at the church for helping to build and protect the area around the temple grounds. 8-|

Noah had whores aplenty and killed prophets, all while sitting on his fat rear end, drinking wine and taxing the people 20% to build monuments unto his own glory. If you honestly think that's what the apostles/church are all about... I can't even begin to express my disappointment in your judgment.

I pray you won't be judged as you've judged others.

I'm glad he wasn't my bishop. I couldn't have gone to him for a personal chat. The outward appearance can resemble a sheep but the inside may be part wolf. When I lived in Utah bishops like this were a dime a dozen.

[freedomforall]

The Church first announced three years ago it was planning to redevelop the downtown area to energize the economy of the city that houses its headquarters and to bolster the area near Temple Square. No tithing funds will be used in the redevelopment.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/2006/12/news ... edia=audio" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[boo]

Anyone who still claims the mall was built with tithing funds is dishonest at best.
.

If it isn't from tithing where is it from ? From investments ? Where did the investments come from ? Tithing of course ! The fact is that everything the church has ever had is from tithing directly or indirectly. It is the worst kind of sophistry to claim investment income not tithing was used . It is ALL tithing . ps so much for my cloak of charity. I think I should stop responding to these kinds of posts. It interferes with my attempts to love the unlovable

Careful, your ignorance is showing.
Back in the 60's my mom worked for the church. Part of her job was handling properties (particularly multi-family rentals) people donated and left to the church when they died. Other people she worked with handled farms and even businesses that people donated to the church. Some left stocks and bonds and other investments. Some fool like yourself might call it tithing, but it isn't. Right after my mission I worked in home health. One of my clients, ready to die, let me know that her life insurance policy's beneficiary was the church. Tithing? Nope, not in the real world. But smart fellers like yourself can't seem to figure a donation to the church as something other than tithing. No wonder you have so many issues with the church- you either think too much or you don't think things through enough :ymsigh:

Ah right you are .There other types of donations which I failed to mention . Obviously I did mention some of them like the humanitarian donations. Just to be clear are you suggesting that the multi million dollar mall was funded by these types of donations rather than funds which at some point were tithing funds or where you just tying to correct my oversight. If the former please tell me how much was charitable donations and how much from what was originally tithing. If the latter thanks for pointing out my error.

[boo]

The Church first announced three years ago it was planning to redevelop the downtown area to energize the economy of the city that houses its headquarters and to bolster the area near Temple Square. No tithing funds will be used in the redevelopment.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/2006/12/news ... edia=audio" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Doesn't this beg the very question in controversy . With the financial records a secret ( unlike the first 100 years of the church ) HOW do you know ? And why don't they treat the info as the first 8 or 9 presidents of the Church did . What is your explanation for this change of policy ?

[freedomforall]

The Church first announced three years ago it was planning to redevelop the downtown area to energize the economy of the city that houses its headquarters and to bolster the area near Temple Square. No tithing funds will be used in the redevelopment.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/2006/12/news ... edia=audio" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Doesn't this beg the very question in controversy . With the financial records a secret ( unlike the first 100 years of the church ) HOW do you know ? And why don't they treat the info as the first 8 or 9 presidents of the Church did . What is your explanation for this change of policy ?

I can't speak for the church. I can't speak for changes made either. The point is, I am supposed to pay tithing and I do. Once I give the money to whom ever is authorized to receive it, I forget all about it. I don't care what it's used for, not my concern. In my heart I payed my debt to God and that is all that's required. If I kept a close eye on what the money is spent on, then I would have not paid the tithing in the right attitude, the right spirit. It would be the same as if I had not paid at all. Actually, I don't miss tithing money. Why should I?

[Thomas]

Doesn't really matter if you call it tithing, charitable donation or investment income. It is all the Lord's money. How can they legitimately say, this pile is mine and that pile is the Lord's? It was all collected in the Lord's name. Boo was spot on when he said, it is the worst type of sophistry.

[shadow]

Just to be clear are you suggesting that the multi million dollar mall was funded by these types of donations rather than funds which at some point were tithing funds or where you just tying to correct my oversight. If the former please tell me how much was charitable donations and how much from what was originally tithing. If the latter thanks for pointing out my error.

It doesn't matter where it came from, but the prophet did specify that it wasn't from tithing. It probably came from decades of saving profits from church owned businesses. Where did the money originate 100+ yrs ago?? I don't know. I know the church started a lot of companies. They had to, the place was a wasteland. The church sold many of those businesses including banks and hospitals, a telegraph company, stores, water rights and water canal companies. Early Mormons built these by donating time and work. Was that tithing? I don't know. I don't think so. The railroad company gave the church a huge amount of stock shares for helping lay the railroad. The church sold them. Tithing? I don't think so. With the proceeds other businesses were started. Properties were purchased. Look at how much the church makes by selling water from Warm Springs north of Vegas to the city of Las Vegas. It's tens of millions every few decades. But let's imagine that it all was tithing, what now? Well, what was the revelation to Joseph regarding the use of tithing funds? Care to quote that? It's for building the kingdom (not for feeding the poor). Who decides what that entails? Not you or I. That's why I've said on multiple occasions that it wouldn't matter to me if tithing funds were used for city crick mall (even though they weren't). It's all for building the kingdom under the direction of those who's keys it is to do so. That's not my stewardship. And common consent doesn't mean I have a say In the details. It means I can either sustain those with the stewardship or I can oppose them. Majority rules.

As for your earlier comment about your belief that because the church doesn't deny rumors from a bunch of busy bodied anti's then their claims must be true- How sophomoric that is.
Start a rumor. The rumor isn't denied. The rumor must therefor be true. Reminds me of middle school bully tactics.

[Thomas]

Still the Lord's money. When did it become the leader's money?

[ebenezerarise]

Pure anti-LDS blather. Pure anti-Mormon propaganda. Nothing less.

Gospel living doesn't make a democracy of the operations of the Church. It's not your Church. Common consent does not obligate you nor give you a "vote". Common consent gives you an opportunity to exercise your stewardship as a member of the body of Christ. That means you can sustain and through that action fulfill your covenant.

In one breath you accuse the Church of gross mismanagement that is so bad they can't meet their obligations and at the same time you make them responsible for all the starving children of the world. Why such logic?

Because you have an agenda. There can be no other reason.

[Thomas]

Pure anti-LDS blather. Pure anti-Mormon propaganda. Nothing less.

Gospel living doesn't make a democracy of the operations of the Church. It's not your Church. Common consent does not obligate you nor give you a "vote". Common consent gives you an opportunity to exercise your stewardship as a member of the body of Christ. That means you can sustain and through that action fulfill your covenant.

In one breath you accuse the Church of gross mismanagement that is so bad they can't meet their obligations and at the same time you make them responsible for all the starving children of the world. Why such logic?

Because you have an agenda. There can be no other reason.

Then why do they call for a vote in General Conference

[shadow]

Still the Lord's money. When did it become the leader's money?

The leaders never claim it to be theirs. You gotta think things through a bit more, Thomas.

[Thomas]

Yep. I have thought a lot about it. Like the words salary and stipend. Tithing and donation.

[shadow]

Yep. I have thought a lot about it. Like the words salary and stipend. Tithing and donation.

17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

But what would Paul know?? Too bad you weren't there to accuse him.

24 Yea, wo unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that ye do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time.

25 And now when ye talk, ye say: If our days had been in the days of our fathers of old, we would not have slain the prophets; we would not have stoned them, and cast them out.

[Separatist]

Were the early saints casting stones at Joseph and Sidney who rejected the High Councils decision to pay them a salary?

After negotiations, they agreed to offer Rigdon and Smith an annual contract of $1,100 apiece, more than three times what the average worker of the day could earn. Ebenezer Robinson, the High Council's clerk, later wrote that "when it was noised abroad that the Council had taken such a step, the members of the Church, almost to a man, lifted their voices against it. The expression of disapprobation was so strong and emphatic that at the next meeting of the High Council, the resolution voting them a salary was rescinded." (Richard S. Van Wagoner, Sidney Rigdon, Pg 230.)

I propose they were doing their duty as members.

[ebenezerarise]

Then why do they call for a vote in General Conference

It's not a vote. It's a sustaining -- an opportunity for you to make a covenant. That is all. The process works when you chose not to sustain and take your concerns to a leader. If those concerns are investigated and found true, then different action is taken.