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Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: March 30th, 2016, 4:38 pm
by AI2.0
Matthew.B wrote:AI2.0 wrote:Matthew.B wrote:Jason wrote:
Not really...because they have quite a sordid history from introduction of pagan practices to torture chambers under their churches to hired assassins. Not even getting into the facts of not saving their dead, propagating the bible throughout the earth, and myriad other historical facts.
In the Mormon Church's ~200-year history, it has a sordid history of blood atonement (leading to murder), sexual immorality (John C. Bennett and others), polygamy leading to corruption among Church leadership, and more. Compared to the Primitive Church's history, the Church is faring about the same or worse (as far as I know--not an expert on the first 2 centuries of the Primitive Church's existence).
Give the Mormon Church another 1,000 years of existence and make it the state religion of the most powerful empire on Earth, and you'd probably find a lot of instances where it went the route of the Catholic Church. So far, LDS Mormonism has been the branch of the Restoration that has shown the most positive fruits--but there's no guarantee that it will continue to do so.
Your description of my church is so biased, but I think Elder Maxwell's thoughts on this explain it clearly...
Our church. Last time I checked, I was still an active member in good standing. I should be having an introductory interview with the Bishop in my new ward soon, so I'll be sure to ask if I've been excommunicated without my knowledge.
So, then you haven't been rebaptized?
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: March 30th, 2016, 7:16 pm
by Matthew.B
AI2.0 wrote:
So, then you haven't been rebaptized?
I have been, and my Stake President is aware of that fact (I'm moving to a new ward in the same Stake, so same Stake President). I consider myself a member in good standing as there's been no disciplinary or corrective action that has been taken against me and I attend Church weekly.
My rebaptism was to renew my covenant with God in a significant way, and wasn't an action of joining any group or organization outside of the Church.
My standing could change if the Stake President changes his mind. As it is, he knows all pertinent facts regarding my beliefs about the Church and my actions in opposing the Brethren during General Conference and doesn't think corrective action is necessary, outside of not issuing a temple recommend because I do not sustain the Brethren as PSR's.
So, yes--"our" Church.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: March 31st, 2016, 7:06 am
by Jason
Matthew.B wrote:AI2.0 wrote:
So, then you haven't been rebaptized?
I have been, and my Stake President is aware of that fact (I'm moving to a new ward in the same Stake, so same Stake President). I consider myself a member in good standing as there's been no disciplinary or corrective action that has been taken against me and I attend Church weekly.
My rebaptism was to renew my covenant with God in a significant way, and wasn't an action of joining any group or organization outside of the Church.
My standing could change if the Stake President changes his mind. As it is, he knows all pertinent facts regarding my beliefs about the Church and my actions in opposing the Brethren during General Conference and doesn't think corrective action is necessary, outside of not issuing a temple recommend because I do not sustain the Brethren as PSR's.
So, yes--"our" Church.
Probably leave you alone unless you are actively proselytizing to other members either directly or on the Internet. If Stake President finds out you are doing that and not keeping your beliefs to yourself...it has been my experience...excommunication shortly follows.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: March 31st, 2016, 7:29 am
by iWriteStuff
Jason wrote:Matthew.B wrote:AI2.0 wrote:
So, then you haven't been rebaptized?
I have been, and my Stake President is aware of that fact (I'm moving to a new ward in the same Stake, so same Stake President). I consider myself a member in good standing as there's been no disciplinary or corrective action that has been taken against me and I attend Church weekly.
My rebaptism was to renew my covenant with God in a significant way, and wasn't an action of joining any group or organization outside of the Church.
My standing could change if the Stake President changes his mind. As it is, he knows all pertinent facts regarding my beliefs about the Church and my actions in opposing the Brethren during General Conference and doesn't think corrective action is necessary, outside of not issuing a temple recommend because I do not sustain the Brethren as PSR's.
So, yes--"our" Church.
Probably leave you alone unless you are actively proselytizing to other members either directly or on the Internet. If Stake President finds out you are doing that and not keeping your beliefs to yourself...it has been my experience...excommunication shortly follows.
That sounds akin to saying "We know you're a wolf, but you haven't eaten any sheep yet. As soon as you show up with mutton in your mouth, though, the game is over". Either way, it sounds like you're certainly on the radar.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: March 31st, 2016, 9:06 am
by Jason
Matthew.B wrote:AI2.0 wrote:
So, then you haven't been rebaptized?
I have been, and my Stake President is aware of that fact (I'm moving to a new ward in the same Stake, so same Stake President). I consider myself a member in good standing as there's been no disciplinary or corrective action that has been taken against me and I attend Church weekly.
My rebaptism was to renew my covenant with God in a significant way, and wasn't an action of joining any group or organization outside of the Church.
My standing could change if the Stake President changes his mind. As it is, he knows all pertinent facts regarding my beliefs about the Church and my actions in opposing the Brethren during General Conference and doesn't think corrective action is necessary, outside of not issuing a temple recommend because I do not sustain the Brethren as PSR's.
So, yes--"our" Church.
iWriteStuff wrote:Jason wrote:Probably leave you alone unless you are actively proselytizing to other members either directly or on the Internet. If Stake President finds out you are doing that and not keeping your beliefs to yourself...it has been my experience...excommunication shortly follows.
That sounds akin to saying "We know you're a wolf, but you haven't eaten any sheep yet. As soon as you show up with mutton in your mouth, though, the game is over". Either way, it sounds like you're certainly on the radar.
It could be viewed that way....but the reality is everyone has different beliefs or opinions on doctrine. And everyone is entitled to those beliefs and opinions. Where trouble starts is when folks actively proselyte those beliefs or opinions when they are contrary to what has been established by the living head of the organization. Order instead of chaos.
And there are diverse circumstances. For example if Matthew.B were serving in a leadership position...particularly as a member of a bishopric...he would likely be excommunicated quite rapidly. Or if he were in the situation Boo is...a temple worker...would be the same result.
Members do all sorts of stuff - cheat on spouses, drink, smoke, drugs, not go to church for 30 years, etc etc etc...and remain members of the church. On occasion there may be some disciplinary consequence (particularly if they've been through the temple and made covenants) that results in excommunication or dis-fellowship. But they are still welcome to come to church and participate as Matthew stated...won't get a temple recommend and will likely be excluded from a number of callings if not a calling period....but everyone is welcome to come to church every Sunday and participate. No one's name will be taken off the church records unless they request that.
At least that's been my multiple decades experience....
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: March 31st, 2016, 10:00 am
by Matthew.B
Jason wrote:Matthew.B wrote:AI2.0 wrote:
So, then you haven't been rebaptized?
I have been, and my Stake President is aware of that fact (I'm moving to a new ward in the same Stake, so same Stake President). I consider myself a member in good standing as there's been no disciplinary or corrective action that has been taken against me and I attend Church weekly.
My rebaptism was to renew my covenant with God in a significant way, and wasn't an action of joining any group or organization outside of the Church.
My standing could change if the Stake President changes his mind. As it is, he knows all pertinent facts regarding my beliefs about the Church and my actions in opposing the Brethren during General Conference and doesn't think corrective action is necessary, outside of not issuing a temple recommend because I do not sustain the Brethren as PSR's.
So, yes--"our" Church.
Probably leave you alone unless you are actively proselytizing to other members either directly or on the Internet. If Stake President finds out you are doing that and not keeping your beliefs to yourself...it has been my experience...excommunication shortly follows.
After the April 2015 General Conference, I posted a blog post delineating some of the main reasons I voted to oppose the Brethren's calling (
http://myreasonsforhope.blogspot.com/20 ... -vote.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), due to the popularity being received by the group Any Opposed (who seemed to be opposing due to socially progressive reasons, and not doctrinal/scriptural ones). During that conference, my old Stake President was called to be a 70, and so my then-current branch President was called to be the new Stake President. I informed both my old and new Stake President that I had opposed and gave the link to my current Stake President.
The blog post got quoted by Rock Waterman's "Pure Mormonism", which led to a radio interview with the Paul Duane show in early April, in which I discussed my reasons for opposing the Brethren and my issues for the Church. My Stake President is aware of this, too. The point of sharing all this is because the Stake President is aware of my most public statements regarding the Church, and has declined (as of this writing) to pursue any kind of action.
The reason I cannot hold a temple recommend revolves entirely around the question regarding sustaining the Brethren as prophets, seers, and revelators--not because of any moral or spiritual failing on my part.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: March 31st, 2016, 10:03 am
by Matthew.B
iWriteStuff wrote:That sounds akin to saying "We know you're a wolf, but you haven't eaten any sheep yet. As soon as you show up with mutton in your mouth, though, the game is over". Either way, it sounds like you're certainly on the radar.
I'm probably on the radar, and expect this saga of tension with the Church to continue. The reason I haven't received discipline, though, is because my Stake President knows my heart and knows I'm not a wolf in sheep's clothing (we served together for about 1 1/2 years in the Singles Branch that I attended until recently). He's said that he knows my opposition to the Church doesn't come from willful pride or vanity.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: March 31st, 2016, 10:12 am
by Jason
Matthew.B wrote:AI2.0 wrote:
So, then you haven't been rebaptized?
I have been, and my Stake President is aware of that fact (I'm moving to a new ward in the same Stake, so same Stake President). I consider myself a member in good standing as there's been no disciplinary or corrective action that has been taken against me and I attend Church weekly.
My rebaptism was to renew my covenant with God in a significant way, and wasn't an action of joining any group or organization outside of the Church.
My standing could change if the Stake President changes his mind. As it is, he knows all pertinent facts regarding my beliefs about the Church and my actions in opposing the Brethren during General Conference and doesn't think corrective action is necessary, outside of not issuing a temple recommend because I do not sustain the Brethren as PSR's.
So, yes--"our" Church.
Matthew.B wrote:Jason wrote:Probably leave you alone unless you are actively proselytizing to other members either directly or on the Internet. If Stake President finds out you are doing that and not keeping your beliefs to yourself...it has been my experience...excommunication shortly follows.
After the April 2015 General Conference, I posted a blog post delineating some of the main reasons I voted to oppose the Brethren's calling (
http://myreasonsforhope.blogspot.com/20 ... -vote.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), due to the popularity being received by the group Any Opposed (who seemed to be opposing due to socially progressive reasons, and not doctrinal/scriptural ones). During that conference, my old Stake President was called to be a 70, and so my then-current branch President was called to be the new Stake President. I informed both my old and new Stake President that I had opposed and gave the link to my current Stake President.
The blog post got quoted by Rock Waterman's "Pure Mormonism", which led to a radio interview with the Paul Duane show in early April, in which I discussed my reasons for opposing the Brethren and my issues for the Church. My Stake President is aware of this, too. The point of sharing all this is because the Stake President is aware of my most public statements regarding the Church, and has declined (as of this writing) to pursue any kind of action.
The reason I cannot hold a temple recommend revolves entirely around the question regarding sustaining the Brethren as prophets, seers, and revelators--not because of any moral or spiritual failing on my part.
All of the questions are relevant and to my knowledge not weighted in importance. Particularly regarding the covenants that one makes in the temple that relate to those questions.
Alan "Rock" Waterman pushed his opinions publicly on his blog for a number of years before he finally got excommunicated. If you continue to push yours publicly...in time I would bet a penny to a dollar you'll be excommunicated as well. There are predictions of excommunication of Alan on this forum 3 years before he was excommunicated....and predictions for Denver Snuffer a year before he was excommunicated.
Its not an overnight process and lots of rope is given. The exclusion to that is if the person is currently serving in a leadership calling or as in Boo's case a temple worker. Denver was released from High Council (if I recall correctly) a year or two prior. Alan hardly ever attended church to begin with and to my knowledge didn't have a calling period.
If that is the result you are looking for...it seems you are on the right track.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: March 31st, 2016, 10:27 am
by Matthew.B
Jason wrote:All of the questions are relevant and to my knowledge not weighted in importance. Particularly regarding the covenants that one makes in the temple that relate to those questions.
I would argue that the Church has set the current leaders up as intermediaries between men and God, when the scriptures warn against doing that. I would go so far as to say that the leaders are PSR's in title and that it is their legal right to govern and preside over the Church, but that there is no real fruit of them being PSR's since there are no prophecies, visions, or revelations being related in Conference by them (I'm talking about the current state of affairs, not how things have been in the past). I would argue that the requirement to proclaim that you believe something without a reasonable witness is spiritually dangerous--especially when this proclamation is requisite to get the highest blessings or rewards promised by the Church.
Hence, I weigh my moral worthiness to attend the temple as being of far more import than whether I am willing to lie about my reasoned and reasonable beliefs regarding the Brethren.
Jason wrote:Alan "Rock" Waterman pushed his opinions publicly on his blog for a number of years before he finally got excommunicated. If you continue to push yours publicly...in time I would bet a penny to a dollar you'll be excommunicated as well. There are predictions of excommunication of Alan on this forum 3 years before he was excommunicated....and predictions for Denver Snuffer a year before he was excommunicated.
Its not an overnight process and lots of rope is given. The exclusion to that is if the person is currently serving in a leadership calling or as in Boo's case a temple worker. Denver was released from High Council (if I recall correctly) a year or two prior. Alan hardly ever attended church to begin with and to my knowledge didn't have a calling period.
If that is the result you are looking for...it seems you are on the right track.
I want to do as the Lord would do in my situation, and the servant is not greater than the Master. He was rejected and despised by His ecclesiastical leaders and those who followed them. If my lot is to be excommunicated for acting in harmony with my beliefs, then so be it--so long as I am morally clean, an excommunication would be of no effect on my spiritual state.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: March 31st, 2016, 2:22 pm
by Jason
Matthew.B wrote:Jason wrote:All of the questions are relevant and to my knowledge not weighted in importance. Particularly regarding the covenants that one makes in the temple that relate to those questions.
I would argue that the Church has set the current leaders up as intermediaries between men and God, when the scriptures warn against doing that. I would go so far as to say that the leaders are PSR's in title and that it is their legal right to govern and preside over the Church, but that there is no real fruit of them being PSR's since there are no prophecies, visions, or revelations being related in Conference by them (I'm talking about the current state of affairs, not how things have been in the past). I would argue that the requirement to proclaim that you believe something without a reasonable witness is spiritually dangerous--especially when this proclamation is requisite to get the highest blessings or rewards promised by the Church.
Hence, I weigh my moral worthiness to attend the temple as being of far more import than whether I am willing to lie about my reasoned and reasonable beliefs regarding the Brethren.
Jason wrote:Alan "Rock" Waterman pushed his opinions publicly on his blog for a number of years before he finally got excommunicated. If you continue to push yours publicly...in time I would bet a penny to a dollar you'll be excommunicated as well. There are predictions of excommunication of Alan on this forum 3 years before he was excommunicated....and predictions for Denver Snuffer a year before he was excommunicated.
Its not an overnight process and lots of rope is given. The exclusion to that is if the person is currently serving in a leadership calling or as in Boo's case a temple worker. Denver was released from High Council (if I recall correctly) a year or two prior. Alan hardly ever attended church to begin with and to my knowledge didn't have a calling period.
If that is the result you are looking for...it seems you are on the right track.
I want to do as the Lord would do in my situation, and the servant is not greater than the Master. He was rejected and despised by His ecclesiastical leaders and those who followed them. If my lot is to be excommunicated for acting in harmony with my beliefs, then so be it--so long as I am morally clean, an excommunication would be of no effect on my spiritual state.
Agree to disagree on all statements. Obviously you've chosen your track though...wish you the best outcome on it.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: March 31st, 2016, 3:47 pm
by Mark
Jason wrote:Matthew.B wrote:Jason wrote:All of the questions are relevant and to my knowledge not weighted in importance. Particularly regarding the covenants that one makes in the temple that relate to those questions.
I would argue that the Church has set the current leaders up as intermediaries between men and God, when the scriptures warn against doing that. I would go so far as to say that the leaders are PSR's in title and that it is their legal right to govern and preside over the Church, but that there is no real fruit of them being PSR's since there are no prophecies, visions, or revelations being related in Conference by them (I'm talking about the current state of affairs, not how things have been in the past). I would argue that the requirement to proclaim that you believe something without a reasonable witness is spiritually dangerous--especially when this proclamation is requisite to get the highest blessings or rewards promised by the Church.
Hence, I weigh my moral worthiness to attend the temple as being of far more import than whether I am willing to lie about my reasoned and reasonable beliefs regarding the Brethren.
Jason wrote:Alan "Rock" Waterman pushed his opinions publicly on his blog for a number of years before he finally got excommunicated. If you continue to push yours publicly...in time I would bet a penny to a dollar you'll be excommunicated as well. There are predictions of excommunication of Alan on this forum 3 years before he was excommunicated....and predictions for Denver Snuffer a year before he was excommunicated.
Its not an overnight process and lots of rope is given. The exclusion to that is if the person is currently serving in a leadership calling or as in Boo's case a temple worker. Denver was released from High Council (if I recall correctly) a year or two prior. Alan hardly ever attended church to begin with and to my knowledge didn't have a calling period.
If that is the result you are looking for...it seems you are on the right track.
I want to do as the Lord would do in my situation, and the servant is not greater than the Master. He was rejected and despised by His ecclesiastical leaders and those who followed them. If my lot is to be excommunicated for acting in harmony with my beliefs, then so be it--so long as I am morally clean, an excommunication would be of no effect on my spiritual state.
Agree to disagree on all statements. Obviously you've chosen your track though...wish you the best outcome on it.
My prediction is that this whole "remnant" movement associated with Snuffer etc will end up much like many in the Harmston led TLC group did; disillusioned and disgruntled. They will discover that all the tantalizing promises will fall flat and soon false revelation/inaccurate predictions will be the order of the day resulting in unhappiness and bitterness. False prophets cant help but do what they do best; deceive people and make them bitter. Eventually those leading the pack will show their true colors like all apostates have in the past and it will be on display for all to see.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: March 31st, 2016, 3:49 pm
by Matthew.B
Jason wrote:Matthew.B wrote:[Loquacious ramblings...]
I want to do as the Lord would do in my situation, and the servant is not greater than the Master. He was rejected and despised by His ecclesiastical leaders and those who followed them...
Agree to disagree on all statements.
Well, surely not
all of them... lol. ;)
Jason wrote:Obviously you've chosen your track though...wish you the best outcome on it.
I appreciate that. Thanks, Jason. God bless, brother.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: March 31st, 2016, 4:39 pm
by boo
Mark wrote:
My prediction is that this whole "remnant" movement associated with Snuffer etc will end up much like many in the Harmston led TLC group did; disillusioned and disgruntled. They will discover that all the tantalizing promises will fall flat and soon false revelation/inaccurate predictions will be the order of the day resulting in unhappiness and bitterness. False prophets cant help but do what they do best; deceive people and make them bitter. Eventually those leading the pack will show their true colors like all apostates have in the past and it will be on display for all to see.
That is reminds me of the advice Gamaliel gave Caiaphas about the early Christians Acts 5 : 34-39 . The difference is he recommended that the religious hierarchy take no action against them least they be found fighting against God. Was good advice then and now but institutions must protect their turf at all costs.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: March 31st, 2016, 9:09 pm
by Jason
Matthew.B wrote:Jason wrote:Matthew.B wrote:[Loquacious ramblings...]
I want to do as the Lord would do in my situation, and the servant is not greater than the Master. He was rejected and despised by His ecclesiastical leaders and those who followed them...
Agree to disagree on all statements.
Well, surely not
all of them... lol. ;)
Jason wrote:Obviously you've chosen your track though...wish you the best outcome on it.
I appreciate that. Thanks, Jason. God bless, brother.
Yeah all of them. He didn't have any ecclesiastical leaders...nor was He rejected by those who truly followed him...unless you want to get really technical on some temporary shortcomings with Peter and others.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: March 31st, 2016, 9:43 pm
by Jesef
Many would rather complain, criticize, find fault, and accuse unjustly, imperfectly, and hypocritically than hear this simple message:
Be filled with love towards God and all men.
Be filled with the love of God.
Be filled with love.
Pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure.
A new commandment I give unto you. That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
We are of God; he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God; and everyone that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for God is love.
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
No man hath seen God at any time, except them who believe. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as he is, so are we in this world.
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear; because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
We love him, because he first loved us.
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar; for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
Reject the bitter fruit and partake of the fruit of eternal life, the fruit of the love of God. Love, Joy, and Peace to all of you. Farewell.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: April 1st, 2016, 12:01 am
by Daryl
iWriteStuff wrote:That sounds akin to saying "We know you're a wolf, but you haven't eaten any sheep yet. As soon as you show up with mutton in your mouth, though, the game is over". Either way, it sounds like you're certainly on the radar.
Sounds very much like something "
James in the Forest" would say.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: April 1st, 2016, 5:06 am
by Matthew.B
Jason wrote:Matthew.B wrote:Jason wrote:Matthew.B wrote:[Loquacious ramblings...]
I want to do as the Lord would do in my situation, and the servant is not greater than the Master. He was rejected and despised by His ecclesiastical leaders and those who followed them...
Agree to disagree on all statements.
Well, surely not
all of them... lol. ;)
Jason wrote:Obviously you've chosen your track though...wish you the best outcome on it.
I appreciate that. Thanks, Jason. God bless, brother.
Yeah all of them. He didn't have any ecclesiastical leaders...nor was He rejected by those who truly followed him...unless you want to get really technical on some temporary shortcomings with Peter and others.
He was rejected by the Jews' (of which he was one, culturally, ethnically, and religiously) ecclesiastical/religious leadership and those who accepted their (the leaders') authority. Is that a more agreeable wording? It's the intent I had in mind.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: April 1st, 2016, 5:09 am
by Matthew.B
Jesef wrote:Many would rather complain, criticize, find fault, and accuse unjustly, imperfectly, and hypocritically than hear this simple message:
Was that directed at anyone or any comment specifically?
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: April 1st, 2016, 8:43 am
by Jason
Jason wrote:Matthew.B wrote:[Loquacious ramblings...]
I want to do as the Lord would do in my situation, and the servant is not greater than the Master. He was rejected and despised by His ecclesiastical leaders and those who followed them...
Agree to disagree on all statements.
Matthew.B wrote:
Well, surely not
all of them... lol. ;)
Jason wrote:Obviously you've chosen your track though...wish you the best outcome on it.
I appreciate that. Thanks, Jason. God bless, brother.
Matthew.B wrote:Jason wrote:Yeah all of them. He didn't have any ecclesiastical leaders...nor was He rejected by those who truly followed him...unless you want to get really technical on some temporary shortcomings with Peter and others.
He was rejected by the Jews' (of which he was one, culturally, ethnically, and religiously) ecclesiastical/religious leadership and those who accepted their (the leaders') authority. Is that a more agreeable wording? It's the intent I had in mind.
the narrow use of "ecclesiastical" is Christian church...even in the broad application of the word regarding religious hierarchy it doesn't fit because the Jews were all broken up (Sadducees, Essenes and the Pharisees...just for starters). Caiaphas was a political figurehead...not religious....an appointee of the Roman government.
I got your intent...and as stated...didn't agree with it....and more precisely the use of it to justify your position of rebellion against church leadership today.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: April 1st, 2016, 8:52 am
by Thomas
Matthew.B wrote:Jesef wrote:Many would rather complain, criticize, find fault, and accuse unjustly, imperfectly, and hypocritically than hear this simple message:
Was that directed at anyone or any comment specifically?
I am pretty sure it is directed at one side of the debate. The other side is free to mock, complain, find fault and unjustly accuse.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: April 1st, 2016, 9:11 am
by shadow
boo wrote:Mark wrote:
My prediction is that this whole "remnant" movement associated with Snuffer etc will end up much like many in the Harmston led TLC group did; disillusioned and disgruntled. They will discover that all the tantalizing promises will fall flat and soon false revelation/inaccurate predictions will be the order of the day resulting in unhappiness and bitterness. False prophets cant help but do what they do best; deceive people and make them bitter. Eventually those leading the pack will show their true colors like all apostates have in the past and it will be on display for all to see.
That is reminds me of the advice Gamaliel gave Caiaphas about the early Christians Acts 5 : 34-39 . The difference is he recommended that the religious hierarchy take no action against them least they be found fighting against God. Was good advice then and now but institutions must protect their turf at all costs.
That reminds me of the commandment the Lord gave to Alma. See if you can note the difference. It should be quite clear, boo-
28 Therefore I say unto you, that he that will not hear my voice, the same shall ye not receive into my church, for him I will not receive at the last day.
32 Now I say unto you, Go; and whosoever will not repent of his sins the same shall not be numbered among my people; and this shall be observed from this time forward.
33 And it came to pass when Alma had heard these words he wrote them down that he might have them, and that he might judge the people of that church according to the commandments of God.
34 And it came to pass that Alma went and judged those that had been taken in iniquity, according to the word of the Lord.
35 And whosoever repented of their sins and did confess them, them he did number among the people of the church;
36 And those that would not confess their sins and repent of their iniquity, the same were not numbered among the people of the church, and their names were blotted
It's clear that God wants His institution protected. Even at the cost of excommunicating people.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: April 1st, 2016, 9:13 am
by Thomas
This quote is for Mark and his tiresome Harmston references:
When men speak as men, no matter their role in society or church, they are not entitled to your faith. If you give it to them, you are an idolater
and following a Telestial standard. When prophets speak by the voice of inspiration, then it is the voice of inspiration you follow. We are disciples of the Master and not of the Master's servants. pg. 232 The Second Comforter.
This Mark, is the reason you cannot tell the difference between a true messenger and a false one. It is why Harmston would have had none of my attention. My faith is in Christ alone.
It is not a contest between which men we place our faith in.
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: April 1st, 2016, 9:23 am
by Jesef
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Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: April 1st, 2016, 9:24 am
by Thomas
If your sole source of what you regard as " bona fide " knowledge is the authorities in a priestly group, or in a scholarly discipline, or a philosophical school of thought, then you would be among those who would have rejected the carpenter's son. He came without rank, position or authority. He came with nothing more than truth. He came with exactly what he asks you to follow now, armed only with the tools of "persuasion, long suffering, gentleness and meekness, and love unfeigned.............He came as He comes now. It is a test. It has always been a test. The test is no different now than it was then. Do you hear him? The second Comforter pg. 229
Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?
Posted: April 1st, 2016, 9:59 am
by Jesef
Thomas wrote:Matthew.B wrote:Jesef wrote:Many would rather complain, criticize, find fault, and accuse unjustly, imperfectly, and hypocritically than hear this simple message:
...
Was that directed at anyone or any comment specifically?
I am pretty sure it is directed at one side of the debate. The other side is free to mock, complain, find fault and unjustly accuse.
For "Remnant" brothers/sisters, pretend Denver Snuffer wrote it and read it that way - but not just that snippet, the whole post, which was entirely about a universal theme and words of Christ we all believe in common and also believe to be directed at all of us, everyone - and if we go read Moroni 7:45-48 or 2 Corinthians 13:4-13 we would see that Charity is pure love and is sweet not bitter, does not complain, criticize, accuse, find fault, or judge unjustly, even if such is done to the charitable one - it has an eye single to the glory of God and the uplifting, enlightenment, blessing, and welfare of his/her brothers & sisters. The opening sentence was merely a contrast to this type of love.
For LDS brothers/sisters, likewise pretend President Monson wrote it and read it that way.
While it may have seemed like a snide snipe to some of you, it is in reality (and objectively) a painfully true observation (of many people's behavior on both sides of this and other "debates" and pretty much any endless and fruitless contention), and it is also very typical of the natural man, which neither the Remnant or the LDS have a monopoly on. It is also an admission of guilt on my part on many stretches of this roller-coaster ride. I am much, much happier and more at peace since I decided to cast away and stop partaking of the bitter fruit of bitterness and try to focus on universally/eternally true principles. As you peal away the outer layers of the gospel, you start to see the pure and perfect core/heart of it, what Jesus was really trying to communicate, and it is the only way to inner and outer peace, joy, unity/harmony, etc. - and that core truth and attribute of Christlikeness/Godlikeness is Love, the pure Love of God/Christ, it's becoming like Him/Them. It's much less about do this, do that, do this or that in this exact way with these exact words and gestures (what we might call the spiritual hokey-pokey) - but all those things done humbly and lovingly are okay and even beneficial too (like all the rules and procedures in the Law of Moses were, as a schoolmaster to point to Christ). Charity never contends, never coerces, never aspires, never accuses. Period. Everything else is arguing about nonsense of who is right and who is wrong, divisiveness, ways of seeing others as your enemies or persecutors or spiritual inferiors. If the Lord call you directly (and certainly) to stand on the wall and rebuke (the tough love phase) and be the voice of His judgment (for lack of a better term), well, do your duty and trust Him. But too many are taking this upon themselves, not having been called or ordained to, and it's pretty obvious (because they do not show the sign of true Charity).
LDS people can find this treasure, this pearl of great price, while being observant (but not idolatrous) members of the LDS Church. Remnant people can too. Almost anyone can, it's surely available to all through the Light of the Creator within them (search diligently in the Light of Christ, etc.).
That's it. No argument. No offense intended (although I should have known better, that some would take it personally and defensively - sorry about that). I am as guilty of this from my past as anyone. Feel free to reject or pick apart, slice and dice. I KNOW what I've found and it is full of love and peace and joy, full of light and intelligence and glory (no darkness, no bitterness), patience, etc., and a truly eternal perspective that cares very little about focusing on anyone else's apparent weaknesses, faults/sins, etc., in or out of the LDS Church. I truly hope you all find what you seek. Hopefully that clarifies what I meant. I don't have anything else to say really, except, once again, may the Peace and Love and Joy of Christ be with and in you.