LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **February 20th, 2016, 2:26 pm**

freedomforall wrote:
Jesef wrote:Does anyone here feel like they possess a sure or perfect knowledge that their position is correct, regarding Denver Snuffer vs LDS Church & Leaders (authority claims basically)? In other words, do you consider that you KNOW as well as you KNOW that you are alive/conscious/sentient that your basic position on the controversy is correct/accurate/true? On this one thing, not all things.
I vote that DS be taken out of the equation. Let's stick to the scriptures, the official church doctrine, shall we?

Brother, you ignore the scriptures that we post.If you want to stick just to church leader quotes, then say so.

Posted: **February 20th, 2016, 2:27 pm**

Yeah, I'm exhausted.
I think this thread should be locked.
This whole thread just baits everybody into arguments and disagreements.

Posted: **February 20th, 2016, 4:03 pm**

Well, I propose people just exercise some restraint and avoid contention, in other words, if you have any unkind feelings in this discussion you are invited to withdraw or be quiet until you've overcome them. I hope to be able come back in a few days, weeks, or months and report something worthwhile from this exploration and experiment, whether confirmation/reconfirmation or new revelation.

Here's a fun thought exercise though regarding the spectrum and media (as in plural of medium) of belief-faith-knowledge concerning spiritual and/or supernatural things. It's a bit hypothetical but stick with me. So let's assume a person thinks or believes it is possible to develop and use faith - mental exertion or force of will - to move a physical object - small to large, from flipping a light switch or uprooting a tree or moving a mountain. They pray and seek diligently and eventually ask the Lord for this power. In response to their inquiry and seeking they have a spiritual experience in which they hear a voice tell them "Yes, you have this power." Do they possess a perfect knowledge now? Do they KNOW as surely as they live that they have this power, we'll call it telekinesis? I say NO, they don't. They have yet to move an object by mind/will/faith alone. What if they then sit down and decide to try it and they decide to flip a light switch off by mind/will/faith alone. Nothing immediately happens, they keep experimenting with various methods, prayers, and words out loud, and in the middle of this experiment, someone else comes along without being asked or prompted, or knowing what the first person is even up to, and they physically flip the switch. The first person thinks "well, maybe they responded to my mind/will (without necessarily being aware)." Do they have a perfect knowledge yet? No, they are still quite subject to doubt and uncertainty on the subject, despite their spiritual experience, hearing a voice declare it to them, and seeing some sort of result. They will not possess a perfect or sure knowledge until they actually move something with their mind/will/faith alone and can reproduce the result. Anyway, think about it.

Posted: **February 20th, 2016, 5:02 pm**

For those of you who accept/believe all of the truth and authority claims of the Church, here's a few questions:

What degree of uncertainty is acceptable in a testimony of any of the things mentioned in the temple recommend interview?

For example, what if a person, sustains the brethren but does not know whether they are literal/actual witnesses of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ? (Like if the person thinks the brethren may just know by the power of the Spirit only, i.e. a very powerful feeling, but not by sight or touch?) Or the person does not know if each of them have literally manifested the gifts of prophecy, seership, and revelation? But they could or have and the person is not aware of it. What if they disagree with some of the brethren's opinions or teachings (think it's possible they are mistaken given the contradictions and disagreements throughout the Church's history, for instance, between various Apostles and Prophets), does this constitute not sustaining them in their positions or as PSR's? Should this person be permitted to enter the temple?

What if the person has been introduced to heterodox or unorthodox ideas but really does not know whether they are correct - they are possible, could be true (contrary to Church teachings), but definitely does not know. Could be organic evolution, could be multiple mortal lives, could be who are the 144,000, and other obscure non-core questions and speculations. The person is uncertain, simply does not know - but admits many things are possible that don't make sense or are not Church mainstream teaching today. Should this person be allowed to enter the temple?

What about tithing? What if they don't believe tithing is 10% of gross income? Or 10% of net income? What if they believe an honest tithe is actually 10% of interest, which they define to be surplus income, like 10% of what is left over after needs are met, like 10% of savings? What if they view fast offerings as part of tithing (very unorthodox) since the scriptures don't make the distinction and designate tithes "for the poor", i.e. all offerings are "tithing" in the Lord's eyes. They pay this annually, conscientiously, with perfect obedience. Should this person be permitted to enter the temple?

Word of wisdom, what if the person believes drinking ale and/or beer with temperance is not a violation of the Word of Wisdom, D&C 89, and that this is what the statement "and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks" actually means. Should they be permitted to enter the temple?

In short, must a person's beliefs or testimony meet a certain bar or pass a certain interpretation, must that be the mainstream interpretation, to be considered "worthy" to enter the house of the Lord and participate in temple ordinances - what if their conscience is clear, despite priesthood leaders having objections to their views/interpretations - should control be exercised to make the person obey the leader's interpretation - such as "if you don't believe President Monson and the brethren are as spiritually gifted as Joseph Smith, then you don't really sustain them as PSR's, and you are unworthy to enter," or, "unless you subscribe to and show income statements indicating that you pay 10% of your gross income, you are not a full tithe payer and will not be permitted to enter." I could go on, but you get the idea. The overall question, is how orthodox does one have to be to be worthy to enter, and is their conscience really a good enough measure of judgment. Who determines orthodoxy? Is orthodoxy what is in the standard works or if an Apostle or Prophet/President says it in General Conference, or a manual, how about the handbook? President Uchtdorf recently said that we could accommodate all "heights" of testimony in the Church, but did he mean the temple too? What say you?

Posted: **February 20th, 2016, 5:44 pm**

Stahura wrote:
Jesef wrote:Ok, if we are going to draw a parallel, let's do it sensibly: in terms of admitting or preventing admittance to temples (I feel absurd doing this - your guys' arguing that anyone should be able to enter is nonsensical), in Moses's time, with the tabernacle, even when only supposedly Aaronic priesthood ordinances were being administered (with properly constituted divine authority under a real Melchizedek priest, Moses, even though the people had rejected "the fullness" or entering into the Lord's presence/rest, assuming D&C 84 is true), did the Lord, through Moses and those gatekeepers of the tabernacle permit every person to enter? Or perform ordinances? Or participate in ordinances? Or pray in the holy of Holies? Or touch the ark of the covenant or have a peek inside? Did God DIRECTLY administrate who could or could not enter or was this done by Moses and the priesthood/priests? Does someone sit in "Moses's seat", for lack of a better term, does someone preside, in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Would Denver Snuffer even try to enter one of these temples under false pretenses? I think not. This is an an absurd argument, in my view.
I don't think anybody is arguing that just anybody should be able to enter. It doesn't make sense to allow EVERYONE AND ANYONE into the Temple The argument is only that it doesn't make sense to not allow people to enter the Temple based on their belief in a fellow man.
This was not a pre-requestite for the longest time, and there's a reason for that. If it was supposed to be that way,if that was a reflection of true righteousness, God would have to Joseph many years before this little policy was created.

Yea, they aren't actually arguing that 'just anybody' should be able to enter, just themselves. They are arguing that people who are sympathetic to Snuffer and his views of the church, who've rejected Pres. Monson and the 12, should be able to. Given how all dissenters in church history have been dealt with, I don't understand why they'd think this.

I'm not sure there is any proof of how church leaders determined worthiness to enter the temple, but I'm quite confident that in Joseph's day, he did not allow members who denigrated him or his quorum to enter the Kirtland temple. I'm quite certain that Brigham Young, John Taylor, et al did not allow members who didn't sustain them and the Quorum to enter the St. George temple or Manti temples, etc.

So, why should Pres. Monson and the 12 allow people who reject them as the Lord's servants on earth, to enter our temples? Snuffer has said that the ordinances are useless and he needs to build a temple himself, so he can administer these ordinances as he claims they should be done, so he'd better hop to it and his followers (if they actually believe him) should up those donations so they can buy some land and build it.

Posted: **February 20th, 2016, 6:07 pm**

Stahura wrote:
Jesef wrote:Apparently, at some point, it became necessary to see if people claiming to be members of the Church were actually loyal to the Lord's legal administrators/authorized servants, not pretenders or infiltrators. I think there is ample evidence this security measure was necessary. The sustaining questions are just that, the apostasy question is just that - I notice immediately that it says the offices, not their names - would you feel better about it if "first presidency" & "twelve apostles" were replaced with "the Lord's anointed and divinely authorized servants"? Stahura, you have created a logical paradox with your statement within the context of the LDS belief system and authority paradigm: within that system, those who are sanctified would sustain and support the officers in the Lord's kingdom; the houses of the Lord, the kingdom of the Lord, the Lord's servants, judges in Israel. There's no room for Snuffers and people circumventing the gates, climbing over the walls, ordinances authorized by some other guy, house of order, the whole thing, etc. it's equivalent to believing it's okay if some guy "claims" he has the sealing power wanting to perform ordinances in an LDS temple. If you believe Snuffer, go help him build a temple. Do you disagree with that?
That's what people don't get. The pretenders and infiltrators will get into the Temple either way. The recommend questions aren't an obstacle for them. So, since some will enter who are not worthy, we should not bother to have standards? Just let em all in. If that's the case, then the whole purpose of the temple is null and void. Why bother building them.
Being loyal to church leaders has nothing to do with righteousness. Your opinion about church leaders is not a pre-requisite to being sanctified or purified. Yes, it is. Being able to recognize and follow, or heed the Lord's 'true messengers' is a big part of this church. If you don't care about it or think it's wrong or unnecessary, then you don't understand a fundamental precept of this gospel.

The purpose of the Temple recommend question is to determine worthiness. A person who has been sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost (actual reception of the Holy Ghost) and who retains it, is worthy. No interview is necessary.Are you aware we are still a church made up of mortals? Sorry to disappoint, but some of us are not as advanced as you are, to be able to know for certain that someone is worthy or not, and besides, even if we did know, that is not how the Lord does things. It is a VERY IMPORTANT part of the worthiness interview for the interviewee to STATE their own worthiness--to vouch for it before God, angels and his witness on earth--we are held accountable eventually, if we lie. But, as with other things, that seems to have been lost on you. If a person is sanctified at a time that he still doesn't have a testimony of Church leaders, clearly God found it was okay to sanctify him , essentially approving his repentance. That in itself is the ONLY thing a man or woman should need to enter the Lord's house. If you are already sanctified or worthy, why are extra questions needed to determine worthiness?Remember, the imposters and fakers will make their way inside either way, so that's not why there are questions. We're not talking about people being 'unsure' of whether they have a testimony of their leaders--the question is 'do you sustain' them? In other words, do you heed their counsel and believe that they are servants of God. IF you don't believe that, you need to figure out why, because it is a basic tenet of our faith. But, we are talking about people who have REJECTED Pres. Monson and the 12--people who believe Denver Snuffer--they reject our church leaders--they don't just 'wonder' about them...because if they are following Snuffer, then they've made their choice, especially if they've followed HIS counsel and gotten rebaptized at his behest, by one of HIS approved priesthood holders.

If a person has been sanctified, even if he has no testimony or opinion about church leaders, God already gave his approval and is worthy for the Templel. There's no need to seek more by asking questions.
Do you not understand what I'm saying?

You do realize that things change in people's lives, right? Even, righteous people can slip and fall into temptation and sin--even if they were at one time 'sanctified'. Look at King David and many of the early LDS church leaders. A person may be worthy to enter at one point and then two years later, they are not worthy to enter, because of sin--in behavior and also through apostasy. As I pointed out, the worthiness interview is for the interviewee. They can lie if they choose to, but they damn themselves when they do. And don't think you can have 'no opinion' about your church leaders--when we join this church, we leave neutral ground. We are either aligned with them or against them. Those who've thrown their lot in with Denver Snuffer are 'against' our LDS church leaders.

Posted: **February 20th, 2016, 7:24 pm**

Jesef wrote:Does anyone here feel like they possess a sure or perfect knowledge that their position is correct, regarding Denver Snuffer vs LDS Church & Leaders (authority claims basically)? In other words, do you consider that you KNOW as well as you KNOW that you are alive/conscious/sentient that your basic position on the controversy is correct/accurate/true? On this one thing, not all things.

Yep...sure as I'm alive...President Thomas S. Monson is the Lord's spokesman upon the earth at this time. The only living man on the face of the earth that possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys. Amen. Done said deal.

Denver...peddling pride.

Posted: **February 20th, 2016, 7:50 pm**

You KNOW as well/perfectly as you KNOW that you live, Jason? By what means? You know you are alive by 5 senses as well as countless interactive feedback loops and instances. Are you joking? Don't cheapen it.

Posted: **February 20th, 2016, 8:10 pm**

Jesef wrote:You KNOW as well/perfectly as you KNOW that you live, Jason? By what means? You know you are alive by 5 senses as well as countless interactive feedback loops and instances. Are you joking? Don't cheapen it.

Ah I see your strength has returned! Too bad

Posted: **February 20th, 2016, 8:49 pm**

No, it hasn't.

Posted: **February 20th, 2016, 10:45 pm**

Jesef wrote:No, it hasn't.

So what is the $64,000 question since all exhaustion has dissipated and a newness, a burst of energy has come upon some of us? And Denver, once again, is back in the loop. Is it because some people have not jumped off the train yet, even though claiming they have? Are there still some here wanting to prove authenticity of Denver's claims, although he having been exed, can't let his teachings go?

Just remember, according to BrianM this is a pro-LDS site unless otherwise noted.

Thanks goes out to all those in favor of, and defending the brethren we call the fifteen.
Thanks goes out to those who receive Christ through his servants as he has directed us to do.
Thanks goes out to those who don't let whether or not all the fifteen have seen Christ be an issue for act of dissent.
Thanks goes out to all those that allow the church to lead and guide them to the Savior.
Thanks goes out to all those that feast upon the word and know in their heart Christ's words are contained therein.
Thanks goes out to all those that know Jesus is the Christ, out Redeemer, our Savior and King, even Jehovah God.
Thanks goes out to all those that declare the pleasing word of God, remaining steadfast and immovable in doing so.

Posted: **February 20th, 2016, 11:12 pm**

Posted: **February 21st, 2016, 12:20 am**

freedomforall wrote:
Jesef wrote:Anyone exhausted yet? I am. 8-| :-$
Here's how exhausting: search.php?keywords=denver+snuffer+thre ... mit=Search" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He's been one hot topic, one after another. I say it's time for the train to go back to the manufacturer for dismantlement.

That reminds me, how's Charlie Sheen?

Posted: **February 21st, 2016, 2:21 am**

kennyhs wrote:
freedomforall wrote:
Jesef wrote:Anyone exhausted yet? I am. 8-| :-$
Here's how exhausting: search.php?keywords=denver+snuffer+thre ... mit=Search" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He's been one hot topic, one after another. I say it's time for the train to go back to the manufacturer for dismantlement.
That reminds me, how's Charlie Sheen?

They say he's brilliant.

Posted: **February 21st, 2016, 7:10 am**

freedomforall wrote:
jockeybox wrote:I do find it interesting that LDS members must sustain the leaders in order to enter the temple for saving ordinances.

But in return, the same leaders do not need to show the fruits of prophecy, seership or revelation to the members.
Why would God give us more? Is the body of the church living up to everything we've received thus far? Are members feasting on the word? Are they sustaining church leaders? Are they keeping the commandments? Do they remember the Savior at all times? Do they proclaim Jesus instead of going with the PC crowd? Are they ashamed of the gospel or do they stand up and defend Christ? Are they a witness in all things, in all places and at all times even unto death? Mosiah 18:9 Are they keeping their covenants?
Just like we can gain eternal salvation through faithfulness via the temple ordinances we call an endowment, we also must be faithful every day in doing those things that would please God. And if we are not, then why would God reveal even more? Until we're steadfast and immovable in doing what God has already given us, he is not likely going to give us more. And I don't blame him for not doing so. It is us the members of the church that have to prove our worthiness before God will give us more. We are to be in the world but not of the world. How many of the members fall into the category of "the few"?

Matthew 7:14
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matt 7:22,33
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
JST Matt. 7:33 And then will I say, Ye never knew me : depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Do the members of the church have the image of God in their countenances?

Alma 5:19
19 I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?

Are we stripped of pride, envy and mocking? SEE: Alma 5:26-40
Are we walking blameless before God? Alma 5:27

Are we really ready for more revelation?

I appreciate your list of scriptures, but they don't feel that relevant on how to judge if a person today is a prophet.
I understand you think it's everyone else responsibility, and that those that lead have their hands tied because of "lack of faith" from everyone below them.

In fact, from my perspective, those same scriptures should apply to leaders, not just the general membership.

If I am wanting to taste the fruit of prophecy from a modern prophet, what should I eat? What has the Lord said to this people, in our day.

I'm not looking for recycled platitudes in general conference. I'm looking for something that is the Lord speaking today, to us/me.

Posted: **February 21st, 2016, 9:42 am**

"I'm not looking for recycled platitudes in general conference. I'm looking for something that is the Lord speaking today, to us/me."

I'm sure the people in Nephi's or Alma's or Moroni's or Moses' or any others of the other prophets times the people were saying the same thing. The scriptures are full of just such examples. "Stop with the calls to repentance already. We are tired of hearing the same broken record. Give us some juicy signs." Looking beyond the mark became a constant occurrence.

If you would approach the talks given by the Brethren in Conferences with a humble spirit and pray for the spirit to bless you with further light and knowledge as you listen intently I am certain the Lord will communicate his will to you personally jockeybox and you will know what the Lord would have you do in your life.

Posted: **February 21st, 2016, 12:50 pm**

Jesef wrote:You KNOW as well/perfectly as you KNOW that you live, Jason? By what means? You know you are alive by 5 senses as well as countless interactive feedback loops and instances. Are you joking? Don't cheapen it.

I'm not. Same level of conviction and constrains how I live this life from day to day. Impacts every aspect of the daily existence. What I look at, what I eat and drink, what I choose think and contemplate, the words I choose to speak, the words I choose to communicate, interactions with those around me, etc etc etc.

Something one has to know....otherwise why would one operate their body and life according to laws, rules, regs, and put forth time and energy in non-economicly rewarding pursuits? Pay 10% tithing, fast offerings, give up 10-30 hrs a week of service according to calling (that was assigned and not volunteered for), plus scripture time, prayers, meals, etc etc etc

Posted: **February 21st, 2016, 6:00 pm**

Jason wrote:Something one has to know....otherwise why would one operate their body and life according to laws, rules, regs, and put forth time and energy in non-economicly rewarding pursuits? Pay 10% tithing, fast offerings, give up 10-30 hrs a week of service according to calling (that was assigned and not volunteered for), plus scripture time, prayers, meals, etc etc etc

Simple, because you feel if you don't you're going to hell, or Celestial minus 1.

Been there, hard-core.

It's the politics of guilt.

Posted: **February 21st, 2016, 9:20 pm**

Separatist wrote:
Jason wrote:Something one has to know....otherwise why would one operate their body and life according to laws, rules, regs, and put forth time and energy in non-economicly rewarding pursuits? Pay 10% tithing, fast offerings, give up 10-30 hrs a week of service according to calling (that was assigned and not volunteered for), plus scripture time, prayers, meals, etc etc etc
Simple, because you feel if you don't you're going to hell, or Celestial minus 1.

Been there, hard-core.

It's the politics of guilt.

It wouldnt even occur to you that obedience to the principles of the gospel comes because of a love for the Lord and a desire to serve Him and His children? Cynicism will only bring a hardened heart.

Posted: **February 21st, 2016, 9:37 pm**

Mark wrote:
Separatist wrote:
Jason wrote:Something one has to know....otherwise why would one operate their body and life according to laws, rules, regs, and put forth time and energy in non-economicly rewarding pursuits? Pay 10% tithing, fast offerings, give up 10-30 hrs a week of service according to calling (that was assigned and not volunteered for), plus scripture time, prayers, meals, etc etc etc
Simple, because you feel if you don't you're going to hell, or Celestial minus 1.

Been there, hard-core.

It's the politics of guilt.
It wouldnt even occur to you that obedience to the principles of the gospel comes because of a love for the Lord and a desire to serve Him and His children? Cynicism will only bring a hardened heart.

It wouldn't even occur to you that obedience to the principles of the gospel does not equal the above things Jason listed: laws, rules, regs, time and energy in non-economical rewarding pursuits, tithes, offerings, 10-30 hrs away from home, scripture study, prayer, meals etc etc..

The Pharisees say the same: Look at me, I'm not like other men. I'm a pray. I read my scriptures. I tithe and offer. I work at the building for long periods of time.

It's like you don't even crack the NT.

Posted: **February 21st, 2016, 9:47 pm**

jockeybox wrote:I appreciate your list of scriptures, but they don't feel that relevant on how to judge if a person today is a prophet.
I understand you think it's everyone else responsibility, and that those that lead have their hands tied because of "lack of faith" from everyone below them.

In fact, from my perspective, those same scriptures should apply to leaders, not just the general membership.

If I am wanting to taste the fruit of prophecy from a modern prophet, what should I eat? What has the Lord said to this people, in our day.

I'm not looking for recycled platitudes in general conference. I'm looking for something that is the Lord speaking today, to us/me.

Psalms 46:10
10 Be still, and know that I am God...

Posted: **February 21st, 2016, 9:48 pm**

Separatist wrote:
Jason wrote:Something one has to know....otherwise why would one operate their body and life according to laws, rules, regs, and put forth time and energy in non-economicly rewarding pursuits? Pay 10% tithing, fast offerings, give up 10-30 hrs a week of service according to calling (that was assigned and not volunteered for), plus scripture time, prayers, meals, etc etc etc
Simple, because you feel if you don't you're going to hell, or Celestial minus 1.

Been there, hard-core.

It's the politics of guilt.

Why guilt? What makes you feel guilty?

Personally I could care less about Celesterial...Terrestrial etc. I do it because I want to be of service because of the Love demonstrated by the price paid for my opportunity to repent and improve my life. I know He...They love me and want the best for me....and I in turn want to try to do my imperfect but best effort in return.

That's what got me out of bed at 5am this morning to start the meeting schedule by 6am.

Posted: **February 21st, 2016, 10:32 pm**

To all and no one in particular, this was a HUGE epiphany for me: true disciples/followers of Christ do not contend and actually possess/are filled with charity, the pure and perfect love of God/Christ, and are thus like Him - no excuses. Try to chew and swallow and keep that down. The only way to KNOW the truth is to be filled with His Spirit, which is the same as being filled with His Love, which can't be done without choosing to be meek and lowly in heart, broken heart and contrite spirit, fool before God, all the energy of heart, eye single to glory of God. This is the way to a perfect knowledge and perfection, in/of/from/through Christ, the ONLY way. Perfect peace. Peace and Love. That's it.

Posted: **February 21st, 2016, 11:21 pm**

Jesef wrote:To all and no one in particular, this was a HUGE epiphany for me: true disciples/followers of Christ do not contend and actually possess/are filled with charity, the pure and perfect love of God/Christ, and are thus like Him - no excuses. Try to chew and swallow and keep that down. The only way to KNOW the truth is to be filled with His Spirit, which is the same as being filled with His Love, which can't be done without choosing to be meek and lowly in heart, broken heart and contrite spirit, fool before God, all the energy of heart, eye single to glory of God. This is the way to a perfect knowledge and perfection, in/of/from/through Christ, the ONLY way. Perfect peace. Peace and Love. That's it.

And thus we understand what Moroni means in 7:48, when he tell us to pray with all of the energy of our hearts that we may be filled with this love. This is another reference to the baptism of fire. When we receive the Holy Ghost at the baptism of fire, we abide with God. Thus we also understand the phrase "abide in me".As you said, Being filled with his Spirit is being filled with his Love. Thus we also understand the phrase "abide in his love". As long as we remain in this state, we will receive many revelations and our prayers will be answered. None of this will ever happen without having a broken heart and contrite spirit, as Jesef. You basically tied in like 15 scriptures there to explain very simply what we must do to obtain these answers and become a true disciple. Love this post man!

It is incredibly hard to remain in this state , it's very hard not to become slothful and lazy. It's difficult to continue reading and praying every day and to put away the things of the World. Immediately following the rebirth or other powerful experiences, it's very easy to do these things. As time passes however, those things become a distant memory, and that's when we usually fall.(not necessarily through transgression, but through lack of diligence and we become lazy)

It's only when we get to that previous spiritual state that we will again start receiving many revelations and we will again begin to grow spiritually.

Posted: **February 22nd, 2016, 8:04 am**

Separatist wrote:
Mark wrote:
Separatist wrote:
Jason wrote:Something one has to know....otherwise why would one operate their body and life according to laws, rules, regs, and put forth time and energy in non-economicly rewarding pursuits? Pay 10% tithing, fast offerings, give up 10-30 hrs a week of service according to calling (that was assigned and not volunteered for), plus scripture time, prayers, meals, etc etc etc
Simple, because you feel if you don't you're going to hell, or Celestial minus 1.

Been there, hard-core.

It's the politics of guilt.
It wouldnt even occur to you that obedience to the principles of the gospel comes because of a love for the Lord and a desire to serve Him and His children? Cynicism will only bring a hardened heart.
It wouldn't even occur to you that obedience to the principles of the gospel does not equal the above things Jason listed: laws, rules, regs, time and energy in non-economical rewarding pursuits, tithes, offerings, 10-30 hrs away from home, scripture study, prayer, meals etc etc..

The Pharisees say the same: Look at me, I'm not like other men. I'm a pray. I read my scriptures. I tithe and offer. I work at the building for long periods of time.

It's like you don't even crack the NT.

Why do you automatically equate a desire to live ones sacred covenants of obedience and sacrifice and consecration made in the house of the Lord with being Phariseeacle? (Is that even a word?) That is where the cynicism sets in. You do not know ones heart yet you judge them so harshly as being a Pharisee because of a desire to serve the Lord and their fellow man with their time and talents. Perhaps it is you who needs to read the words of those consecrated apostles and prophets of the Savior to see what was taught to the saints on becoming sanctified and born again. It takes effort and dedication to the gospel to go along with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Pharisees are clueless of true discipleship. Perhaps you should think twice of accusing others of being such not knowing their hearts?

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Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?

Re: Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?