LDS Freedom Forum

Lizzy60 wrote:The D&C says that if we are not equal in temporal things, we cannot be equal in spiritual things. This was the reason God revealed that the members would live the Law of Consecration, so all members would have their needs met, and would have equal opportunity to search for spiritual gifts.

They failed, and we are under condemnation, as a church.

Suggested reading for your Sabbath:
D&C 38
D&C 70
D&C 82

As a people, not as a church.

I totally agree with you that we each should help one another and stop this ridiculous rat race that is Babylon.
We as a society have fully succumbed to worldly ways. The LDS people are neck deep in it! Worried about houses, cars, collage education, sports, clothes, play time, Work 40-70 hr weeks, What reality show is on, oh yea gotta have that latest technology! On and on and on. Where do we fit God in? Most don't!

People want a scape goat for their problems and I think many use the church for this one.
The Church is a support organization, not there to do it for us.
Just like parents expect the education system to teach their children and the little kiddies don't do so well..it's the school/teachers fault. Where are the parents in the equation?

A scripture in the New Testament has always haunted me,
Matthew 6:24-34
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

How do we do it?
Do we quit our jobs, go into the wilderness as a group and fend for ourselves?
I really do struggle with this.
We don't seek the Kingdom of God the way society is structured. It's impossible.
So how?
It's not the Church that God asked to do this, it's each of us!

The interesting thing is, we take for granted just how much putting our words here bares our soul for all to see.
People can try and change their moniker but given enough time and enough words spoken and people will know.
Our souls are all unique and there's really not much we can do to hide the true signature each of our souls make.

BTH&T,

I wish to help you and those who look in.

You asked "How to seek the kingdom of God first?"

First is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And how you find this faith is to first learn of "all" his words. The leaders of Israel of old were to do their own hand written copy of his laws, and keep this book report close by them to meditate therein day and night, that they might learn to not lift their hearts above that of their fellowman. That they were not to multiply gold or silver or wives unto themselves, but to meditate upon his words day and night, post them on the doorposts and gates of their homes, and have as frontlets before their eyes.

Then not to turn to the right hand or the left hand on his commandments but to stay on the straight and narrow path, of keeping all his commandments which he has given us.

Then you may come to know the will of God for his people. ♡

Then the Spirit of truth can guide you to all righteousness and justice and thoughts and actions of charity with clean hands and a pure heart.

One of the first changes of heart where your faith can build, is to follow his instructions, if someone steals away your goods to just let them go. And actually feel good in your heart that you have so done, not according to the word of men, but of Jesus Christ of God, knowing he sees that which you do and smiles upon you for doing that which he said to do, against the advice of man.

And keep doing all the things the Lord Jesus Christ has said to do and be like, no matter what man may say to you, and watch your faith in him grow as you witnessing him blessing you, over and over again, for all these things you follow him in.

Then things will begin to be opened unto you that others see not but you surely will. ♡

Franco wrote:

zionminded wrote:

Franco wrote:According to Joseph Smith, people have to follow the prophet in order to know "the mind and will of God to the Church."

President Joseph Smith, Jun., addressed the assembly and said, the Melchizedek High Priesthood was no other than the Priesthood of the Son of God; that there are certain ordinances which belong to the Priesthood from which flow certain results; and the Presidents or Presidency are over the Church; and revelations of the mind and will of God to the Church are to come through the Presidency. This is the order of heaven. - History of the Church, Volume Two, page 477

No one can know the mind and will of God without following the prophet. Anyone who wants to get to "heaven" will give heed to these words.

This is a lesser law. It's great if somebody follows the prophet. Many people need a man to follow.

However the greater law is to follow the Lord directly. Many won't think this is possible or cannot do that. It doesn't mean you go against the prophet, because one following the Lord will be in alignment with his prophet.

The “order of heaven” is NOT a “lesser” law. Joseph Smith's statement was clear, direct, plain, and simple.

“Revelations of the mind and will of God to the Church are to come through the Presidency. This is the order of heaven.”

Don't lump it all into one basket. Revelations for the Church come through its presidency and the prophet. Revelations for you and your stewardship (your family), come from the Lord. It IS a lesser law to follow the prophet only, and not seek a personal relationship with the Lord.

Let me add a few things to this.

“… God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what he will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint [emphasis added] may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them. …” (Teachings, p. 149.)

“Do ye not remember the things which the Lord hath said?—If ye will not harden your hearts, and ask me in faith, believing that ye shall receive, with diligence in keeping my commandments, surely these things shall be made known unto you [emphasis added].” (1 Ne. 15:3, 7–11.)

“It is the privilege of every Elder to speak of the things of God; and could we all come together with one heart and one mind in perfect faith the veil might as well be rent today as next week, or any other time. …” (Teachings, p. 9.)

I could go on..

The Lord doesn't want a people that simply follow the prophet. Some of you are stuck in Primary singing "..Follow the Prophet..". True, this is a basic principle that isn't displaced by personal revelation. But a higher principle, is to know the Lord personally. The Lord wants a people who know Him. Prior to his coming, cities of Zion will not be a group of people who just follow the prophet. Rather Zion cities will be people who follow and know Christ. Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying people should be mislead and follow their own voice and leave the church and the prophet. But people need to know that the times are coming when following the prophet alone is not enough! We must get to know Christ and his voice, ideally to see Him and know him, or at a minimum know his voice through the Spirit.

Finally. When Christ prayed with the 12 before his crucifixion, he asked that they might be one with him, as he is with the Father:

(21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Father and Jesus want us to be one. We start this by following the prophet. We finish this by becoming one with Christ. One is a lesser law, the other a higher law. Lesser laws are not "thrown away", they are built upon. One who has a relationship with Christ WILL follow the prophet.

Franco wrote:According to Joseph Smith, people have to follow the prophet in order to know "the mind and will of God to the Church."

President Joseph Smith, Jun., addressed the assembly and said, the Melchizedek High Priesthood was no other than the Priesthood of the Son of God; that there are certain ordinances which belong to the Priesthood from which flow certain results; and the Presidents or Presidency are over the Church; and revelations of the mind and will of God to the Church are to come through the Presidency. This is the order of heaven. - History of the Church, Volume Two, page 477

No one can know the mind and will of God without following the prophet. Anyone who wants to get to "heaven" will give heed to these words.

I believe you have missed an important part of this revelation, and that is the phrase "to the Church". In other words, to keep things in order, the revelations to the church as a whole must come through the presidency, otherwise it would be a mass of confusion as false prophets and so forth would put forth their ideas, no one would know who was right.

In order to sort this out, you must think about what the purpose of the church is, or the multiple purposes.

Where I feel that many that focus on "following the prophet" fall short is they almost always ignore, neglect or minimize the critical role of personal revelation. It is also why many within the church (members) seem to have a very cookie cutter approach - they feel like everyone should conform to their own idea of what it means to be a good church member, and they tend to be pretty ugly towards anyone who doesn't fit their idea. They may "talk the talk" about being welcoming to all. and that we are all sinners, but when it comes to practice they distance themselves from anyone that doesn't meet their personal idea of what a good church member should be, they don;t let their kids play with non-members kids because deep down they are afraid they may be a bad influence, they are very judgmental of even other members if their beliefs do not conform to the correlated material.

So I think that absolutely Revelation TO THE CHURCH must come through proper lines of authority as set up in the church. But I believe that personal revelation is superior, it is what "the church" is guiding each individual to be worthy to receive. I have not received revelation from God that contradicts the prophet when he is speaking as such. I also believe that prophets are fallible, and that it is my responsibility in my own life and life of my family to receive confirmation as to what is from God and what is personal opinion. That likely makes many uncomfortable that I say that, I would respond that if you are uncomfortable with that idea you are likely leaning on the arm of flesh, and that discomfort is not God warning you that I am wrong, it is simply the discomfort of your paradigm being threatened, and the fear of taking personal responsibility for your eternal salvation.

The prophet Joseph Smith also warned that anyone that would turn their salvation over to someone else is unworthy of glory.

edit: I see I pretty much repeated what zionminded said in the previous two posts.

I agree with original intent and would add.
In order to truly follow the prophet. You must do as he does. Have a personal relationship with the lord. Recive personal revelation from the lord as he does.

We all know the saying actions speak louder then words.

I personally like the quote.
I could not hear the words coming out of your mouth because your actions were screaming too loud.

Point being we must do as the prophet does in order to follow him. Watch where he goes avoid the things where he might stumble. Be there to support him in such times.

We are all capable of being equal even with Christ as he said that it was possible.
You playing small does not serve this world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking or playing small. The only thing that holds us back from being equal is our own thinking. We are all ment to shine. Be amasing powerful capable of moving mountains. Just like everyone else is.
Humility is not seeing yourself as low. It seeing yourself as equally incredible with everyone.
And so I don't lable myself as being less then anyone on this earth. The prophet has a calling and keys that are unique to him alone. Yet we all have the same capabilitys to move mountains or walk on water with faith.
So go ahead and shed those fears and be who God would have you be. Pick yourself up and be equal with our prophet in order to truly sustain and follow.

Again, the word of the Lord to Jeremiah is not null and void, to not hearken unto the prophets of the latter days that have not the testimony of his words from standing in his presence, and obtaining the words from his own mouth. See Jeremiah chapter 23. ♡

zionminded wrote:

Franco wrote:

zionminded wrote:

President Joseph Smith, Jun., addressed the assembly and said, the Melchizedek High Priesthood was no other than the Priesthood of the Son of God; that there are certain ordinances which belong to the Priesthood from which flow certain results; and the Presidents or Presidency are over the Church; and revelations of the mind and will of God to the Church are to come through the Presidency. This is the order of heaven. - History of the Church, Volume Two, page 477

This is a lesser law. It's great if somebody follows the prophet. Many people need a man to follow.

However the greater law is to follow the Lord directly. Many won't think this is possible or cannot do that. It doesn't mean you go against the prophet, because one following the Lord will be in alignment with his prophet.

The “order of heaven” is NOT a “lesser” law. Joseph Smith's statement was clear, direct, plain, and simple.

“Revelations of the mind and will of God to the Church are to come through the Presidency. This is the order of heaven.”

Don't lump it all into one basket. Revelations for the Church come through its presidency and the prophet. Revelations for you and your stewardship (your family), come from the Lord. It IS a lesser law to follow the prophet only, and not seek a personal relationship with the Lord.

There is no "law" to "follow the prophet only." The problem comes when people substitute their "personal revelations" for what God has revealed through his prophets. The prophet is authorized to speak for Jesus Christ, who said many things that people rejected as not coming from God.

Satan wants people to think that God has personally revealed to them that the prophet is wrong and that God failed to reveal to the prophet that he is wrong. Such people will think, "Yeah, God has given me a revelation, but the prophet has been deceived by Satan."

Original_Intent wrote:

Franco wrote:According to Joseph Smith, people have to follow the prophet in order to know "the mind and will of God to the Church."

President Joseph Smith, Jun., addressed the assembly and said, the Melchizedek High Priesthood was no other than the Priesthood of the Son of God; that there are certain ordinances which belong to the Priesthood from which flow certain results; and the Presidents or Presidency are over the Church; and revelations of the mind and will of God to the Church are to come through the Presidency. This is the order of heaven. - History of the Church, Volume Two, page 477

No one can know the mind and will of God without following the prophet. Anyone who wants to get to "heaven" will give heed to these words.

I believe you have missed an important part of this revelation, and that is the phrase "to the Church". In other words, to keep things in order, the revelations to the church as a whole must come through the presidency, otherwise it would be a mass of confusion as false prophets and so forth would put forth their ideas, no one would know who was right.

In order to sort this out, you must think about what the purpose of the church is, or the multiple purposes.

Where I feel that many that focus on "following the prophet" fall short is they almost always ignore, neglect or minimize the critical role of personal revelation. It is also why many within the church (members) seem to have a very cookie cutter approach - they feel like everyone should conform to their own idea of what it means to be a good church member, and they tend to be pretty ugly towards anyone who doesn't fit their idea. They may "talk the talk" about being welcoming to all. and that we are all sinners, but when it comes to practice they distance themselves from anyone that doesn't meet their personal idea of what a good church member should be, they don;t let their kids play with non-members kids because deep down they are afraid they may be a bad influence, they are very judgmental of even other members if their beliefs do not conform to the correlated material.

So I think that absolutely Revelation TO THE CHURCH must come through proper lines of authority as set up in the church. But I believe that personal revelation is superior, it is what "the church" is guiding each individual to be worthy to receive. I have not received revelation from God that contradicts the prophet when he is speaking as such. I also believe that prophets are fallible, and that it is my responsibility in my own life and life of my family to receive confirmation as to what is from God and what is personal opinion. That likely makes many uncomfortable that I say that, I would respond that if you are uncomfortable with that idea you are likely leaning on the arm of flesh, and that discomfort is not God warning you that I am wrong, it is simply the discomfort of your paradigm being threatened, and the fear of taking personal responsibility for your eternal salvation.

The prophet Joseph Smith also warned that anyone that would turn their salvation over to someone else is unworthy of glory.

edit: I see I pretty much repeated what zionminded said in the previous two posts.

The problem comes when people substitute their "personal revelations" for what God has revealed through his prophets. The prophet is authorized to speak for Jesus Christ, who said many things that people rejected as not coming from God.

Satan wants people to think that God has personally revealed to them that the prophet is wrong and that God failed to reveal to the prophet that he is wrong. Such people will think, "Yeah, God has given me a revelation, but the prophet has been deceived by Satan."

Tony ^^^^^^^ Just because someone receives personal revelation from God, specific to their stewardship and God's foreknowledge, does not mean that person says that the Prophet has been deceived. There is no way on Earth for the Prophets who lead this Church to give every member revelation specific to their personal situation. Heck, we can't even get a appointment to talk to one of them.

Lizzy60 wrote:Tony ^^^^^^^ Just because someone receives personal revelation from God, specific to their stewardship and God's foreknowledge, does not mean that person says that the Prophet has been deceived. There is no way on Earth for the Prophets who lead this Church to give every member revelation specific to their personal situation. Heck, we can't even get a appointment to talk to one of them.

Personal revelation is a great thing, but if someone thinks they had a revelation that their family does not need to go to Church on Sundays, or that it is OK to sneak into a movie theater without buying a ticket, the person has been deceived by Satan.

Tony,

I don't put boundaries on what God may reveal. He is God, after all..

I know it won't mean anything to you, but I have learned to discern the voice of God, through the Holy Spirit, when He counsels me. So, if he tells me to skip church, I will assume He has a reason, and I will do as He asks.

I can think of a reason God would inspire someone to skip church------

A while ago, there was a news article about a couple of young girls who were snatched out of the line of Primary children making the trek to the restroom. The man had evil intentions, it was discovered later. What if a prayerful parent heard the Holy Spirit tell them to stay home, but didn't obey, and their child was kidnapped?

I'm not really a movie person, so I don't have a scenario for that one. Unless God inspired a non-member to sneak into Meet the Mormons, and they were so amazed they joined the Church.

farmerchick wrote:Wow..there's been a lot of that lately......people switching internet identities......hmmmm

against the council of the brethren they sustain are they anonymous online, hiding behind masks...

How many identities do you and/or have you had Brotherofmahonri?

zionminded wrote:The Lord doesn't want a people that simply follow the prophet. Some of you are stuck in Primary singing "..Follow the Prophet..". True, this is a basic principle that isn't displaced by personal revelation. But a higher principle, is to know the Lord personally. The Lord wants a people who know Him. Prior to his coming, cities of Zion will not be a group of people who just follow the prophet. Rather Zion cities will be people who follow and know Christ. Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying people should be mislead and follow their own voice and leave the church and the prophet. But people need to know that the times are coming when following the prophet alone is not enough! We must get to know Christ and his voice, ideally to see Him and know him, or at a minimum know his voice through the Spirit.

In the February 12, 1862 issue of Deseret News, Brigham Young is quoted stating:

I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are lead by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purpose of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders did they know for themselves by the revelations of Jesus that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves whether their leaders are walking in the path the lord dictates or not.

See http://www.sixteensmallstones.org/wp-co ... 62-257.pdf column 4 paragraph 3.

I don't think he could have been any more clear in his statement.

zionminded wrote:Let me add a few things to this.

“… God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what he will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint [emphasis added] may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them. …” (Teachings, p. 149.)

Joseph was teaching here that God revealed things to him and that God will make those things "known unto the Twelve," and even "the least Saint" may know those things if he will follow the prophet and if he is able to bear them. As Joseph Smith stated, "Revelations of the mind and will of God to the Church are to come through the Presidency. This is the order of heaven."

zionminded wrote:

“Do ye not remember the things which the Lord hath said?—If ye will not harden your hearts, and ask me in faith, believing that ye shall receive, with diligence in keeping my commandments, surely these things shall be made known unto you [emphasis added].” (1 Ne. 15:3, 7–11.)

This scripture is quoting what Nephi said to Laman and Lemuel. They could not understand the "words" that their "father had spoken concerning the natural branches of the olive tree" (see verse 7), but, as Nephi stated, if they would not harden their hearts and would ask in faith, those things shall be made known unto them, which has nothing to do with the fact that "Revelations of the mind and will of God to the Church are to come through the Presidency. This is the order of heaven."

zionminded wrote:

“It is the privilege of every Elder to speak of the things of God; and could we all come together with one heart and one mind in perfect faith the veil might as well be rent today as next week, or any other time. …” (Teachings, p. 9.)

Elders have the privilege to speak of the things of God that have been revealed by the prophet and expounded upon by the apostles. God will not reveal things through the Elders instead of the prophet.

zionminded wrote:I could go on..

The Lord doesn't want a people that simply follow the prophet. Some of you are stuck in Primary singing "..Follow the Prophet..". True, this is a basic principle that isn't displaced by personal revelation. But a higher principle, is to know the Lord personally. The Lord wants a people who know Him. Prior to his coming, cities of Zion will not be a group of people who just follow the prophet. Rather Zion cities will be people who follow and know Christ. Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying people should be mislead and follow their own voice and leave the church and the prophet. But people need to know that the times are coming when following the prophet alone is not enough! We must get to know Christ and his voice, ideally to see Him and know him, or at a minimum know his voice through the Spirit.

Finally. When Christ prayed with the 12 before his crucifixion, he asked that they might be one with him, as he is with the Father:

(21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Father and Jesus want us to be one. We start this by following the prophet. We finish this by becoming one with Christ. One is a lesser law, the other a higher law. Lesser laws are not "thrown away", they are built upon. One who has a relationship with Christ WILL follow the prophet.

We are never “one with Christ" unless we are following the prophet that he is leading and receiving the “revelation” from Christ that comes only through his prophet on the earth.

Franco, there is a good model in scriptures. The Israelites required strict obedience to the law given to Moses. Moses wanted the Israelites to have the same personal relationship with Jehovah that he did, but they wouldn't, so a lesser law was given that they could live. We too are in this same situation. Many LDS members are told to be followers of the prophet (and in many ways, following a lesser law [ I can provide so many examples of lesser laws ]), and are unable to do more, or more like unwilling. But the Lord wants us to live higher laws, and develop a relationship with Him. This happens through repentance and covenants. He doesn't want us to bypass the prophet and setup our own church. He doesn't want us to bypass the prophet and setup or own doctrine. He wants us to live higher laws, and build a personal relationship with Him.

Take Lehi's dream as a model. The Lord wasn't showing Lehi to hold to the iron rod forever. When they arrived at the tree, they partook of the fruit. They didn't sit there are hold on to the rod and looked at the tree. Only those (per Nephi's version), left the tree when the felt feelings of shame as being given from the nearby building full of mocking, and they were lost in forbidden paths. They would need to return by finding the rod of iron and the path again, and return (this is repentance).

The Lord wants people to be one with Christ, yes, by following the prophet, but at some point the prophet is only one leg. Your use of the scriptures is another, and your relationship with the Lord another. These three legs are critical, until you arrive at a point where your relationship with the Lord is ALL you need.

While I appreciate your emphasis in following the prophet, you're teaching lower laws (that MUST be followed). My attempt was to lift people up to higher goals. One reason so many fall away from the church, is they are not given the opportunity to develop a relationship with the Lord.

zionminded wrote:Franco, there is a good model in scriptures. The Israelites required strict obedience to the law given to Moses. Moses wanted the Israelites to have the same personal relationship with Jehovah that he did, but they wouldn't, so a lesser law was given that they could live. We too are in this same situation. Many LDS members are told to be followers of the prophet (and in many ways, following a lesser law [ I can provide so many examples of lesser laws ]), and are unable to do more, or more like unwilling. But the Lord wants us to live higher laws, and develop a relationship with Him. This happens through repentance and covenants. He doesn't want us to bypass the prophet and setup our own church. He doesn't want us to bypass the prophet and setup or own doctrine. He wants us to live higher laws, and build a personal relationship with Him.

Take Lehi's dream as a model. The Lord wasn't showing Lehi to hold to the iron rod forever. When they arrived at the tree, they partook of the fruit. They didn't sit there are hold on to the rod and looked at the tree. Only those (per Nephi's version), left the tree when the felt feelings of shame as being given from the nearby building full of mocking, and they were lost in forbidden paths. They would need to return by finding the rod of iron and the path again, and return (this is repentance).

The Lord wants people to be one with Christ, yes, by following the prophet, but at some point the prophet is only one leg. Your use of the scriptures is another, and your relationship with the Lord another. These three legs are critical, until you arrive at a point where your relationship with the Lord is ALL you need.

While I appreciate your emphasis in following the prophet, you're teaching lower laws (that MUST be followed). My attempt was to lift people up to higher goals. One reason so many fall away from the church, is they are not given the opportunity to develop a relationship with the Lord.

By your definition, people who have partaken of the love of God no longer have to worry about being tempted by the devil; they no longer have to worry about the mists of darkness. By your definition, people who read their scriptures daily, thus holding to the iron rod, have obviously not partaken of the love of God.

Anyone not reading their scriptures and not following Jesus Christ's prophet on the earth has been led astray by Satan, especially if they think a relationship with the Lord is ALL they need.

Franco wrote:

zionminded wrote:Franco, there is a good model in scriptures. The Israelites required strict obedience to the law given to Moses. Moses wanted the Israelites to have the same personal relationship with Jehovah that he did, but they wouldn't, so a lesser law was given that they could live. We too are in this same situation. Many LDS members are told to be followers of the prophet (and in many ways, following a lesser law [ I can provide so many examples of lesser laws ]), and are unable to do more, or more like unwilling. But the Lord wants us to live higher laws, and develop a relationship with Him. This happens through repentance and covenants. He doesn't want us to bypass the prophet and setup our own church. He doesn't want us to bypass the prophet and setup or own doctrine. He wants us to live higher laws, and build a personal relationship with Him.

Take Lehi's dream as a model. The Lord wasn't showing Lehi to hold to the iron rod forever. When they arrived at the tree, they partook of the fruit. They didn't sit there are hold on to the rod and looked at the tree. Only those (per Nephi's version), left the tree when the felt feelings of shame as being given from the nearby building full of mocking, and they were lost in forbidden paths. They would need to return by finding the rod of iron and the path again, and return (this is repentance).

The Lord wants people to be one with Christ, yes, by following the prophet, but at some point the prophet is only one leg. Your use of the scriptures is another, and your relationship with the Lord another. These three legs are critical, until you arrive at a point where your relationship with the Lord is ALL you need.

While I appreciate your emphasis in following the prophet, you're teaching lower laws (that MUST be followed). My attempt was to lift people up to higher goals. One reason so many fall away from the church, is they are not given the opportunity to develop a relationship with the Lord.

By your definition, people who have partaken of the love of God no longer have to worry about being tempted by the devil; they no longer have to worry about the mists of darkness. By your definition, people who read their scriptures daily, thus holding to the iron rod, have obviously not partaken of the love of God.

Anyone not reading their scriptures and not following Jesus Christ's prophet on the earth has been led astray by Satan, especially if they think a relationship with the Lord is ALL they need.

Yes Franco, at a point, people no longer are tempted. They can be, if they don't keep their covenants, but repentance truly changes people, that they have no desire to sin:

Alma 19:33

And it came to pass that when Ammon arose he also administered unto them, and also did all the servants of Lamoni; and they did all declare unto the people the selfsame thing—that their hearts had been changed; that they had no more desire to do evil.

There are many stories like that, the most powerful being what happened to the Nephite-Lamanite societies after Christ's visit.

There is a difference between tasting it, and becoming it. MANY will taste it, but will not become like Him. Until they change their hearts (totally) they are susceptible to their weakness (their mortality). Note that changing ones heart completely, is a process, and doesn't mean perfection, it means being willing to be perfected. It does however, require obedience and continual repentance, but that can be done perfectly.

Let me suggest anyone reading their scriptures and only following Jesus Christ's prophet on the earth has also been led astray by Satan, especially if they think doing so is ALL they need. Damnation is a stop in spiritual progression at any level, even if its a good place to stop at. This behavior is basic (like primary), but it isn't enough for the CK. Eventually strict obedience will get somebody to the point where they are given the choice to seek Christ personally. Like all things, some will and can be lead astray and leave in what Lehi's dream is called "forbidden paths"... sadly, because the adversary can deceive anybody. However, the truth remains that times are changing, and sitting on the fence, just reading scriptures and following the prophet isn't enough. (See 10 virgins)

zionminded wrote:

Franco wrote:

zionminded wrote:Franco, there is a good model in scriptures. The Israelites required strict obedience to the law given to Moses. Moses wanted the Israelites to have the same personal relationship with Jehovah that he did, but they wouldn't, so a lesser law was given that they could live. We too are in this same situation. Many LDS members are told to be followers of the prophet (and in many ways, following a lesser law [ I can provide so many examples of lesser laws ]), and are unable to do more, or more like unwilling. But the Lord wants us to live higher laws, and develop a relationship with Him. This happens through repentance and covenants. He doesn't want us to bypass the prophet and setup our own church. He doesn't want us to bypass the prophet and setup or own doctrine. He wants us to live higher laws, and build a personal relationship with Him.

Take Lehi's dream as a model. The Lord wasn't showing Lehi to hold to the iron rod forever. When they arrived at the tree, they partook of the fruit. They didn't sit there are hold on to the rod and looked at the tree. Only those (per Nephi's version), left the tree when the felt feelings of shame as being given from the nearby building full of mocking, and they were lost in forbidden paths. They would need to return by finding the rod of iron and the path again, and return (this is repentance).

The Lord wants people to be one with Christ, yes, by following the prophet, but at some point the prophet is only one leg. Your use of the scriptures is another, and your relationship with the Lord another. These three legs are critical, until you arrive at a point where your relationship with the Lord is ALL you need.

While I appreciate your emphasis in following the prophet, you're teaching lower laws (that MUST be followed). My attempt was to lift people up to higher goals. One reason so many fall away from the church, is they are not given the opportunity to develop a relationship with the Lord.

By your definition, people who have partaken of the love of God no longer have to worry about being tempted by the devil; they no longer have to worry about the mists of darkness. By your definition, people who read their scriptures daily, thus holding to the iron rod, have obviously not partaken of the love of God.

Anyone not reading their scriptures and not following Jesus Christ's prophet on the earth has been led astray by Satan, especially if they think a relationship with the Lord is ALL they need.

Yes Franco, at a point, people no longer are tempted. They can be, if they don't keep their covenants, but repentance truly changes people, that they have no desire to sin:

Alma 19:33

And it came to pass that when Ammon arose he also administered unto them, and also did all the servants of Lamoni; and they did all declare unto the people the selfsame thing—that their hearts had been changed; that they had no more desire to do evil.

There are many stories like that, the most powerful being what happened to the Nephite-Lamanite societies after Christ's visit.

There is a difference between tasting it, and becoming it. MANY will taste it, but will not become like Him. Until they change their hearts (totally) they are susceptible to their weakness (their mortality). Note that changing ones heart completely, is a process, and doesn't mean perfection, it means being willing to be perfected. It does however, require obedience and continual repentance, but that can be done perfectly.

Let me suggest anyone reading their scriptures and only following Jesus Christ's prophet on the earth has also been led astray by Satan, especially if they think doing so is ALL they need. Damnation is a stop in spiritual progression at any level, even if its a good place to stop at. This behavior is basic (like primary), but it isn't enough for the CK. Eventually strict obedience will get somebody to the point where they are given the choice to seek Christ personally. Like all things, some will and can be lead astray and leave in what Lehi's dream is called "forbidden paths"... sadly, because the adversary can deceive anybody. However, the truth remains that times are changing, and sitting on the fence, just reading scriptures and following the prophet isn't enough. (See 10 virgins)

It is obvious that just reading scriptures and following the prophet will not lead to exaltation. There is much more involved on the path to exaltation. But two of the many things you must ALWAYS do while on the path to exaltation are read your scriptures and follow the prophet. There are many more things you must do, such as being valiant in the testimony of Jesus Christ, but those two are something you can never stop doing if you expect to receive eternal life.

Franco wrote:[quote="

Anyone not reading their scriptures and not following Jesus Christ's prophet on the earth has been led astray by Satan, especially if they think a relationship with the Lord is ALL they need.

What if the two conflict?
Why would I need more than a relationship with the LORD? He is is the gatekeeper, who employs no servant.
If I dont do a bunch of handshakes, five points of fellowship, etc., but (theorectically) lived like Mother Teresa, I wont be allowed enterance?

That sounds a lot like RCC, who believe babies that haven;t been sprinkled wont be allowed in either.

Jillions of babies (I like em' one or two at a time) to keep me company might could be hell.

Thanks for showing me the light :p

shadow wrote:How many identities do you and/or have you had Brotherofmahonri?

Wow, Tony/Franco is also Brotherofmahonri?

I thought the latter said he was a prophet of sorts, not follow the other ones we have to sustain as PSRs (at least to remain in good graces with the church)?

Rachael wrote:

Franco wrote:[quote="

Anyone not reading their scriptures and not following Jesus Christ's prophet on the earth has been led astray by Satan, especially if they think a relationship with the Lord is ALL they need.

Why would I need more than a relationship with the LORD? He is is the gatekeeper, who employs no servant.

He employs no servant AT THE GATE. He employs lots of servants to lead his people under his direction so that they can receive eternal life when they meet him at the gate. This is not rocket science.