LDS Freedom Forum

2EstablishZion wrote:I don't keep the Word of Wisdom, nor do I hide it or could I if I wanted too. I'm 5'8" and just shy of 250 lbs. Have been up to almost 300. So no way in heck I am keeping the Word of Wisdom. In fact, I suspect if I weighed 100 lbs. less and had 1 beer per evening I would be living the Word of Wisdom much better than I currently am.

Every time I go in for a temple recommend interview and hit the Wow question, I gesture at my body and say "What do you think?" We laugh, he asks if I smoke, drink, etc. and I verify truthfully that I do not.

It kills me what a letter of the law people we are: When I was in college back in ancient times, a lot of kids were asking their bishops about such things as various types of sex and what was OK within the bounds of marriage. Depending on their bishop, I heard of answers ranging from only the missionary position was OK, to anything was OK that both people felt OK with and beyond that it was between them and God.

I think this is at least part of the condemnation we are under. We want everything spelled out in minute detail, and we don;t seek God's answer, we want a strong man in a position of authority to approve or disapprove every gnat to be strained and every camel to be swallowed. SMH. And per usual it is clear to see who in the discussion falls into that category. "Oh look, look! 150 years ago the body of the church condemned such and such!" Of course, the body of the church would assuredly have condemned a woman being seen in public in any of the current swimwear fashions, including ones that "the world" would consider outlandishly conservative.

skmo wrote:At least it doesn't say anything about lighting up a big old fattie, as long as I'm in Colorado when I do.

Stacy Oliver wrote:
Oh, come on. You know you don't care what the prophets say. The reason I quoted Hyrum was to show what contemporary hearers of the revelation thought it meant.

But, just in case you're not a total lost cause, I'll repeat myself: modern prophets have consistently said that " hot drinks" is an idiom which means coffee and tea.

Joseph Smith said, “"I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom.

"The Lord was showing us what was good for man to eat and drink. Now, what do we drink when we take our meals?

"Tea and coffee. Is it not?

"Yes; tea and coffee.

"Then, they are what the Lord meant when He said 'hot drinks.'"

Brigham Young maintained this position.
"Many try to excuse themselves because tea and coffee are not mentioned, arguing that it refers to hot drinks only. What did we drink hot when that Word of Wisdom was given? Tea and coffee. It definitely refers to that which we drink with our food. I said to the Saints at our last annual Conference, the Spirit whispers to me to call upon the Latter-day Saints to observe the Word of Wisdom, to let tea, coffee, and tobacco alone, and to abstain from drinking spirituous drinks. This is what the Spirit signifies through me.” (DISCOURSES OF BRIGHAM YOUNG, p. 182).

Joseph F. Smith said, "We should observe the Word of Wisdom that has been given to us. … The drunkard becomes a slave to his drink; others become slaves to the use of tea, coffee and tobacco, and therefore they consider them necessary to their happiness; but they are not really necessary to their happiness nor to their health. Indeed, they are injurious to health."

Not that it matters to me, but the church did unanimously jte and covenant to keep the WoW, specifically mentioning coffee and tea. Minutes of the General Conference,” Millennial Star, 1 Feb. 1852, p. 35.

Joseph taught that, "That no official member in this church is worthy to hold an office, after having the words of wisdom properly taught to him, and he the official member neglecting to comply with or obey them." One of the bases for David Whitmer's disfellowship was that he disobeyed the WoW. W.W. Phelps, Oliver Cowdery, and John Whitmer were also charged with not observing the Word of Wisdom by consuming coffee and tea.

I would invite you to repent and heed the prophets and apostles so you will not be cut off by the Lord.

captainfearnot wrote:There are lots of things in the church which are not commandments, but which we are promised will bless our lives if we do them. Optional things, in other words. Like volunteering at the bishop's storehouse or doing genealogy.

Yet I can't think of a single "optional commandment" where it is explicitly stated in the scriptures that it is not a commandment, outside of D&C 89:2. Doesn't that seem significant? It's almost as if it wouldn't be a huge problem if someone got the wrong idea and thought that genealogy was mandatory, but it was important to make sure that the Word of Wisdom wouldn't be misinterpreted that way. So it was named the Word of Wisdom to begin with, which was supposed to distinguish it from commandments. But knowing how definitions and connotations can morph in language, the additional step of spelling out "not by way of commandment" was included in the revelation.

It doesn't seem to have worked. "Word of Wisdom" has taken on the opposite of its original meaning in the minds of most members, and it's easy to convince ourselves that verse two no longer applies.

jwharton wrote: For example, why are people who question the manner in which all of the financial records of the church are not fully exposed treated as apostates?
Isn't it a wise principle that the church have full accountability and transparency to all of the members making the donations?
Don't those who are bothered by this, genuinely in their conscience, deserve the respect to have their controversy heard out and acted upon?

People have got to wake up and see that raising up a controversy against the leaders is indeed something that should be respected, not shunned.

rewcox wrote: Imagine if his dad would have said, "Family, I read section 89 and determined it was just a suggestion. I want a beer every now and again, and I'm going to have a coffee in the morning."

I don't think the young man would have served a mission.

DrZoidberg wrote:You do understand that if the church had full transparency you would have a potential large % of active members drop their tithings every single month they didn't agree with the latest expenditures?

jockeybox wrote:

DrZoidberg wrote:You do understand that if the church had full transparency you would have a potential large % of active members drop their tithings every single month they didn't agree with the latest expenditures?

That's kind of the big issue with tithing. Full transparency wouldn't have allowed a 2-5 Billion dollar mall in SLC (conveniently located right next to Church HQ).

I believe that the general LDS population would seek to help the hungry, the weak, and lift the feeble, as Jesus asked. There are many good, good people in this church that do so much with so little. Maybe they would have helped some malnourished LDS children in Bolivia or Cambodia. But a mall, no way!

It's hard to imagine that the Lord would want tithing invested back into Babylon, with a safe 3%-5% ROI over the next 10 years.

I'm not trying to steady the ark as rewcox will likely quickly reply. But I do think the leaders are afraid of the backlash, so the funds stay hidden, locked, never to be trusted to the general population. It's begs the questions, "why?"

I'm ashamed. I wish they would let some sunshine in. I wish they had faith enough to see the good they could accomplish.

And they have every reason to be afraid, as many members would be astonished if they say how funds were allocated. Again, I'm only guessing, because the church won't state.

DrZoidberg wrote: how would you not cry foul, over every other little thing?

DrZoidberg wrote: Look, Jesus only did the things He had seen His father do.

rewcox wrote:

2EstablishZion wrote:I don't keep the Word of Wisdom, nor do I hide it or could I if I wanted too. I'm 5'8" and just shy of 250 lbs. Have been up to almost 300. So no way in heck I am keeping the Word of Wisdom. In fact, I suspect if I weighed 100 lbs. less and had 1 beer per evening I would be living the Word of Wisdom much better than I currently am.

Every time I go in for a temple recommend interview and hit the Wow question, I gesture at my body and say "What do you think?" We laugh, he asks if I smoke, drink, etc. and I verify truthfully that I do not.

It kills me what a letter of the law people we are: When I was in college back in ancient times, a lot of kids were asking their bishops about such things as various types of sex and what was OK within the bounds of marriage. Depending on their bishop, I heard of answers ranging from only the missionary position was OK, to anything was OK that both people felt OK with and beyond that it was between them and God.

I think this is at least part of the condemnation we are under. We want everything spelled out in minute detail, and we don;t seek God's answer, we want a strong man in a position of authority to approve or disapprove every gnat to be strained and every camel to be swallowed. SMH. And per usual it is clear to see who in the discussion falls into that category. "Oh look, look! 150 years ago the body of the church condemned such and such!" Of course, the body of the church would assuredly have condemned a woman being seen in public in any of the current swimwear fashions, including ones that "the world" would consider outlandishly conservative.

Is there something you are doing, if you stopped, where you would lose the weight?

jockeybox wrote:

DrZoidberg wrote: Look, Jesus only did the things He had seen His father do.

But to bring this back to the original post, I'm glad you brought up Jesus.

He turned water to wine. I wonder why? I wonder if he drank any?

jockeybox wrote:And they have every reason to be afraid, as many members would be astonished if they say how funds were allocated. Again, I'm only guessing, because the church won't state.

jbalm wrote:

Sandinista wrote:I'm just glad that no where are the words "Dr. Pepper" used in conjunction with the WoW!

Just sticking to the "letter of the law!

Dr. Pepper is straight from heaven. It's the only thing I really miss since I've started trying to reduce my sugar consumption.

The church culture used to foster people to understand and know truth for themselves and then to respect their choices in such matters.
Nowadays there is more of a mentality to conform to standards that are governed more by the precepts of men than of the truth.

Franco wrote:The fact that this thread would even be necessary is a sign that Satan has deceived people into thinking they should not follow the counsel that God has given through his prophets on the earth. If coffee is not what God meant by the word of wisdom, then Joseph Smith would have said that God was not referring to coffee.

A prophet has told us that if a person drinks coffee, tea, or alcohol, they are not worthy to enter the temple, and since judgment begins at the house of God, people who consume such liquids are sacrificing eternal life.

Obrien wrote:

Franco wrote:The fact that this thread would even be necessary is a sign that Satan has deceived people into thinking they should not follow the counsel that God has given through his prophets on the earth. If coffee is not what God meant by the word of wisdom, then Joseph Smith would have said that God was not referring to coffee.

A prophet has told us that if a person drinks coffee, tea, or alcohol, they are not worthy to enter the temple, and since judgment begins at the house of God, people who consume such liquids are sacrificing eternal life.

What about the lardasses who eat like there's no tomorrow, but can still waddle through the temple door? Will they be judged, too?

Franco wrote:The fact that this thread would even be necessary is a sign that Satan has deceived people into thinking they should not follow the counsel that God has given through his prophets on the earth. If coffee is what God meant by the word of wisdom, then Joseph Smith would have said that God was referring to coffee.

A prophet has told us that if a person drinks coffee, tea, or alcohol, they are not worthy to enter the temple, and since judgment begins at the house of God, people who consume such liquids are sacrificing eternal life.

Obrien wrote:

Franco wrote:The fact that this thread would even be necessary is a sign that Satan has deceived people into thinking they should not follow the counsel that God has given through his prophets on the earth. If coffee is not what God meant by the word of wisdom, then Joseph Smith would have said that God was not referring to coffee.

A prophet has told us that if a person drinks coffee, tea, or alcohol, they are not worthy to enter the temple, and since judgment begins at the house of God, people who consume such liquids are sacrificing eternal life.

What about the lardasses who eat like there's no tomorrow, but can still waddle through the temple door? Will they be judged, too?

Franco wrote:

Obrien wrote:

Franco wrote:The fact that this thread would even be necessary is a sign that Satan has deceived people into thinking they should not follow the counsel that God has given through his prophets on the earth. If coffee is not what God meant by the word of wisdom, then Joseph Smith would have said that God was not referring to coffee.

A prophet has told us that if a person drinks coffee, tea, or alcohol, they are not worthy to enter the temple, and since judgment begins at the house of God, people who consume such liquids are sacrificing eternal life.

What about the lardasses who eat like there's no tomorrow, but can still waddle through the temple door? Will they be judged, too?

They will be judged, too, just like everyone ever born. Jesus Christ never revealed to his prophets on the earth that entering the temple is contingent upon weight or physical condition.

Obrien wrote:

Franco wrote:

Obrien wrote:

Franco wrote:The fact that this thread would even be necessary is a sign that Satan has deceived people into thinking they should not follow the counsel that God has given through his prophets on the earth. If coffee is not what God meant by the word of wisdom, then Joseph Smith would have said that God was not referring to coffee.

A prophet has told us that if a person drinks coffee, tea, or alcohol, they are not worthy to enter the temple, and since judgment begins at the house of God, people who consume such liquids are sacrificing eternal life.

What about the lardasses who eat like there's no tomorrow, but can still waddle through the temple door? Will they be judged, too?

They will be judged, too, just like everyone ever born. Jesus Christ never revealed to his prophets on the earth that entering the temple is contingent upon weight or physical condition.

You're obviously not discerning the scriptures well "Franco". The gate is narrow, and the path is long. ;)