LDS Freedom Forum

I guess all we can do is prayerfully await the day when the blessings of the temple will be extended to all, without regard to one's beverage of choice.

I can see the press release now, in which the anti-coffee statements of past leaders are disavowed, if not exactly apologized for.

Frankie - I am one of Jesus Christ's prophets. I have a testimony of Him, so by biblical definition, I have the spirit of prophecy. You better start heeding my words!

captainfearnot wrote:I guess all we can do is prayerfully await the day when the blessings of the temple will be extended to all, without regard to one's beverage of choice.

I can see the press release now, in which the anti-coffee statements of past leaders are disavowed, if not exactly apologized for.

More issues with tithing. Unless you water that one down. Then you have to work on the law of Chastity...

Obrien wrote:Frankie - I am one of Jesus Christ's prophets. I have a testimony of Him, so by biblical definition, I have the spirit of prophecy. You better start heeding my words!

I can vouch for this ^^^^^^.

Seriously. Not joking. Dead serious.

[Well I'm not sure if Tony Franco needs to heed Obrien's words, but I do know the prophecy part is true]

Lizzy60 wrote:

Obrien wrote:Frankie - I am one of Jesus Christ's prophets. I have a testimony of Him, so by biblical definition, I have the spirit of prophecy. You better start heeding my words!

I can vouch for this ^^^^^^.

Seriously. Not joking. Dead serious.

[Well I'm not sure if Tony Franco needs to heed Obrien's words, but I do know the prophecy part is true]

I am interested in hearing Obrien's prophecies.

Glasses may make a person more believeable if trying to act as a prophet.

Jeremy wrote:

Franco wrote:Do either of you believe that judgment begins at the house of God, the temple, or do you disagree?

I disagree. Are we not judged during the temple recommend interview before we go to the temple. If yes, then judgement begins at the chapel. BUT I disagree with that as well. Judgements begin long before that.

You are the temple of God. But God is far more concerned with what comes out of your mouth than what goes in it.

I wonder if Joseph risked eternal life when he requested wine on his last day in order to gladen his heart?

The Savior's judgment concerning eternal life, which is the final judgment, begins at the house of God, and if a Latter-day Saint has ignored the counsel from Jesus Christ's prophets and thus is not worthy to enter the temple, such an one is not worthy to enter into the presence of God in the Celestial Kingdom.

As for Joseph and wine, there was no requirement at that time to abstain from wine to be temple worthy, which means Joseph did not sacrifice eternal life by ingesting wine.

You, Jeremy, may reject on-going revelation from our Latter-day prophets, but most members of the Church know that as sure as there is a God in heaven, Jesus Christ’s prophets on the earth in these latter days have on-going revelation.

Jesus Christ revealed to his prophet on the earth, Heber J. Grant, that the Saints had to abstain from all alcohol, coffee, tea, and tobacco in order to enter the temple.

Franco wrote:The Savior's judgment concerning eternal life, which is the final judgment, begins at the house of God, and if a Latter-day Saint has ignored the counsel from Jesus Christ's prophets and thus is not worthy to enter the temple, such an one is not worthy to enter into the presence of God in the Celestial Kingdom.

=)) I can just hear the conversation now:
Joseph - Hey Tony, what was your favorite wine.
Tony - My worthiness to enter this beautiful celestial kingdom depended upon me not partaking of wine (among other things).
Joseph - Oh man... thats a bummer. Why?
Tony - Because Heber said so.
Joseph - Yo Heber, whats this Tony is saying about worthiness being depended upon not drinking wine?
Heber - Ummmm... well... being sober is like unto godliness. Plus, God told me so.
Joseph - He did? Really? God. Why did you tell Heber that the saints shouldn't partake of wine?
God - The saints of that time had rejected my commands some time before and therefor lost my favor. I subsequently told their president that they should abstain from partaking of that beautiful symbol their savior used when instituting that holy ordinance known as the sacrament. Because I am merciful, I didn't want those silly children to partake of something so holy when it would only further damn them.
Joseph - Ah, I see. So you gave them a watered down version of the sacrament in mercy?
God - Yes.
Joseph - So now that Tony has made it to your kingdom, can he drink some wine?
God - No. I am a changing God. From day to day, hour to hour, minute to minute, second to second, I change what defines worthiness. For you Joseph, you are worthy to be here because you drank. Tony is worthy because he didn't drink.
[meanwhile - sitting by the fountain of holy water Jeremy and Tony are talking]
Tony - Which prophet do I follow now?
Jeremy - Your still on that?
Tony - Jeremy, you may reject ongoing revelation [Jeremy interrupts]
Jeremy - It was nice talking Tony but I gotta run. I snuck in from the crawl space and my master and ally is calling. We are going to go drink some wine with Joseph and Jesus. Don't feel left out though. Heber and the others are staying here with you. You can follow Monson while he follows Hinckley while he follows Hunter while he follows Benson while he follows Kimball while follows Lee while he follows Smith while he follows McKay while he follows Smith while he follows Hunter.

Franco wrote:You, Jeremy, may reject on-going revelation from our Latter-day prophets, but most members of the Church know that as sure as there is a God in heaven, Jesus Christ’s prophets on the earth in these latter days have on-going revelation.

Most members know that there is a god? Or do most members believe there is a god?

Franco wrote:Jesus Christ revealed to his prophet on the earth, Heber J. Grant, that the Saints had to abstain from all alcohol, coffee, tea, and tobacco in order to enter the temple.

Interesting. A man says not to drink wine so you can enter the temple while Jesus institutes the sacrament for what? #-o The contradictions are weighing heavy. I could use a drink... of water.

Jeremy, you need to read Jesus Chrisst's words in Doctrine and Covenants 27:2.

"For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins."

The Lord obviously knew that water would be substituted for wine in the sacrament. The Lord also knew that He would reveal to His servant, Heber J. Grant, that abstaining from alcohol, coffee, tea, and tobacco would be required in order to enter the temple.

If Heber Grant received a bona fide "thus saith the Lord" revelation, saying that abstaining from coffee, tea, alcohol and tobacco, was mandatory in order to enter the temple, WHERE is the transcript of this revelation? When was it sustained by common consent of the body of the church, after the revelation was read to them? Where in the Standard Works is this revelation published?

Because, if a Church Leader (even the President) says anything that contradicts scripture, and it is not published as a "thus saith the Lord" revelation, then current scripture, being the word of God, takes precedence. If it does not take precedence, then our leaders are telling us that they have taken over God's role.

Franco wrote:Jeremy, you need to read Jesus Chrisst's words in Doctrine and Covenants 27:2.

Your right. I do need to read that. Thank you.

It seems like the message in that passage is that it doesnt matter what you drink. What matters is our focus. Is that correct? And if so, can we use wine if we don't purchase it from our enemies?

I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament...

Maybe it doesn't matter except when it does matter but not when it matters again when Christ comes and "drink(s) of the fruit of the vine with you (Joseph and Oliver?) on the earth"...

How about we drop the sacrament dilemma and just say "it was grape juice". :p

Franco wrote:...

As for Joseph and wine, there was no requirement at that time to abstain from wine to be temple worthy, which means Joseph did not sacrifice eternal life by ingesting wine.

You, Jeremy, may reject on-going revelation from our Latter-day prophets, but most members of the Church know that as sure as there is a God in heaven, Jesus Christ’s prophets on the earth in these latter days have on-going revelation.

Jesus Christ revealed to his prophet on the earth, Heber J. Grant, that the Saints had to abstain from all alcohol, coffee, tea, and tobacco in order to enter the temple.

"Grant served as church president from November 23, 1918 until his death in 1945..." (wikipedia)

Grant reigned during the Prohibition Era/Temperance movement. The Saints needed to get rid of there vineyards and distilleries or ... else. They almost lost all by feds seizing assets when the Manifesto came out, I'm sure that was a fresh memory when prohibition became law of the land. Maybe they over corrected a bit?

Rachael wrote:Maybe they over corrected a bit?

Or maybe Satan has such a strong hold through the secrete combinations of the earthly governments that he is now able to even reach the worthiness checklist of heaven. By doing so, heavens checklist is manipulated just in time for the proper revelation to align with the desires of earthy governments.

see "Polygamy" (once required for celestial glory)
see "Blacks and the Priesthood" (once thought to be a lesser race)
see "No Alcohol" (once part of a heavenly designed ordinance instituted by a deity on both halves of the planet, probably wherever the other sheep where)

Jeremy wrote:

Franco wrote:Jeremy, you need to read Jesus Christ's words in Doctrine and Covenants 27:2.

Your right. I do need to read that. Thank you.

It seems like the message in that passage is that it doesnt matter what you drink. What matters is our focus. Is that correct? And if so, can we use wine if we don't purchase it from our enemies?

I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament...

Maybe it doesn't matter except when it does matter but not when it matters again when Christ comes and "drink(s) of the fruit of the vine with you (Joseph and Oliver?) on the earth"...

How about we drop the sacrament dilemma and just say "it was grape juice". :p

There is no dilemma. Jesus Christ revealed through his prophet on the earth that water will be used for the sacrament instead of wine. When Jesus Christ comes, he will use whatever he wants for the sacrament that he shares with those of us who are worthy of Celestial Glory.

he will use whatever he wants for the sacrament that he shares with those of us who are worthy of Celestial Glory.

no comment required. emphasis MINE.

2EstablishZion wrote:

he will use whatever he wants for the sacrament that he shares with those of us who are worthy of Celestial Glory.

no comment required. emphasis MINE.

And your point is?

Franco wrote:And your point is?

I'm not sure of the point but I found it amusing that you seemed to have proclaimed yourself worthy of celestial glory. Which is kind of funny because it almost makes you sound like someone declaring that they have received a promise of exaltation... which according to some is far to sacred of a thing to share.

Watch yourself Tony. You just might start referring to that as "C&E" which is apparently to casual of a way to reference the promise. On top of that you will ridiculed for proclaiming yourself in an elect group. Perhaps even called Gnostic.

Jeremy wrote:

Franco wrote:And your point is?

I'm not sure of the point but I found it amusing that you seemed to have proclaimed yourself worthy of celestial glory. Which is kind of funny because it almost makes you sound like someone declaring that they have received a promise of exaltation... which according to some is far to sacred of a thing to share.

Watch yourself Tony. You just might start referring to that as "C&E" which is apparently to casual of a way to reference the promise. On top of that you will ridiculed for proclaiming yourself in an elect group. Perhaps even called Gnostic.

It warms my heart to know you remember my admonitions.

Jeremy wrote:

Franco wrote:And your point is?

I'm not sure of the point but I found it amusing that you seemed to have proclaimed yourself worthy of celestial glory. Which is kind of funny because it almost makes you sound like someone declaring that they have received a promise of exaltation... which according to some is far to sacred of a thing to share.

Watch yourself Tony. You just might start referring to that as "C&E" which is apparently to casual of a way to reference the promise. On top of that you will ridiculed for proclaiming yourself in an elect group. Perhaps even called Gnostic.

How about this?

Those of us who attend General Conference in October could miss some of the things that can be seen by watching it on television.

Does that mean I am proclaiming that I will attend General Conference in October?

IDK, but going by the tone of your posts, you probably have season tickets

Rachael wrote:IDK, but going by the tone of your posts, you probably have season tickets

=)) =)) =))

Rachael wrote:IDK, but going by the tone of your posts, you probably have season tickets

You may change your tone when you get into the spirit world.

We all will.

Rachael wrote:We all will.

I do not plan on changing my tone. I plan on preaching the gospel in the spirit world, unless I am translated.

Ok thats fine. God bless you for it, that is a noble endeavor.Just remember if you have not charity, the tone will sound like brass and tinkling cymbols