Changing Church Teachings on Tithing with Ellipses

[Joel]

Changing Church Teachings on Tithing with Ellipses



I just finished listening to the most recent episode of Mormon Stories with Kristy Money. During one part of the episode she talks about her bishop intrusively asking why the ward hasn’t received any tithing from her even though she previously responded that she was a full tithe payer. She mentioned that her thoughts about tithing had changed while in Brazil after she sees people who didn’t have the means to pay tithing, but the Church was still telling them to pay–even if that meant going without water or electricity (emphasis mine):

After reading these scriptures together, Bishop Orellana looked at the new convert and said, “If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing. The Lord will not abandon you.”

Now, it appears, at least one Area has starting requiring people pay tithing before they are even baptized.

She also mentioned that the Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow manual conveniently left out a key portion of a quote from Lorenzo Snow. So I decided to look into it (so you don’t have) so you can see for yourselves how the church uses ellipses to change teachings (i.e. here the change is to the teaching on who should pay tithing).

Below is the quote Money is referring to where the words with a strikethrough were replaced with an ellipsis. I also included screenshots of the manual and original conference report (page 21).

I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing.

[shadow]

If you have a dime, you have means to pay a penny or a tenth for tithing. If you don't have a dime, you have no means.

Why are you posting contrary LDS posts?? There are other sites for that.

[Ben McClintock]

that is what you call a troll Shadow. Someone who is picking a fight where none exists.

[Obrien]

joel's no troll. obviously, you cannot comprehend simple English. is it so hard to fathom that the Church, that makes several billion per year promulgating a faulty view of history, has a simple reason to obfuscate this quote?

[ajax]

If you have a dime, you have means to pay a penny or a tenth for tithing. If you don't have a dime, you have no means.

Why are you posting contrary LDS posts?? There are other sites for that.

You're right shadow. Looking into original sources to see what people really said is anti-LDS. Just accept what's in the manual [Insert Obrien's favorite curse word here]!

We must move beyond this milk: https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-princ ... y?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jbalm]

AussieOi dug that up a long time ago.

It really is a big deal. Using ellipses to change the meaning of a quote is very dishonest.

I realize, some people care about that kind of thing, and some people don't.

Does honesty have any place on this forum?

[Desert Roses]

I thought that posts bashing the leadership were going to be stopped. As shadow said, the presumption is that if you have some money, you have means. And yes, I've been in the position of determining to pay tithing instead of rent, instead of food, and instead of water and electricity. Yet always, the Lord provided my needs, and has never failed me yet. Tithing is a matter of faith, not a matter of money, and it's always been that way to all who have faith to see beyond the here and now. Eternity is such a long time...this month's "need" is really just a blip, while this moment's faith and obedience have eternal value.

[jbalm]

Is that gonna be the new thing?

Any time someone points out a problem, then they are "bashing leadership" and need to be silenced?

Nice.

[ajax]

I thought that posts bashing the leadership were going to be stopped.

We are actually sustaining Pres Snow against those who would want to misrepresent him. Please sustain his good name as well. Thank you.

[Bee Prepared]

TITHING A COMMANDMENT FOR THE DESTITUTE, LYNN G. ROBBINS

In October of 1998 Hurricane Mitch devastated many parts of Central America. President Gordon B. Hinckley was very concerned for the victims of this disaster, many of whom lost everything—food, clothing, and household goods. He visited the Saints in the cities of San Pedro Sula and Tegucigalpa, Honduras; and Managua, Nicaragua. And like the words of the loving prophet Elijah to a starving widow, this modern prophet’s message in each city was similar—to sacrifice and be obedient to the law of tithing.

But how can you ask someone so destitute to sacrifice? President Hinckley knew that the food and clothing shipments they received would help them survive the crisis, but his concern and love for them went far beyond that. As important as humanitarian aid is, he knew that the most important assistance comes from God, not from man. The prophet wanted to help them unlock the windows of heaven as promised by the Lord in the book of Malachi (see Mal. 3:10; Mosiah 2:24).

[Abinadi]

I totally agree that paying tithing is not about the money. I have been blessed in my life for paying it first and have never gone without food, shelter or clothing. But can someone here please tell me why the church replaced "who has means" with "..." ? If it is so obvious that it means: "if you have dime then pay it" then why not include the original words?

It really frustrates me when the church does this and I feel a little manipulated in the process. I know you all throw around the phrase "milk before meat" but really? That too sounds like a manipulation too.

I love the basic teachings of the church. It has brought many, many blessings in my life. I just wish that it would be completely honest and quit withholding information (like replacing three words with "...") so that a simpleton like me won't choke on the information.

Once again, I'm not trying to be an "anti" or threaten anyone's beliefs. I just want you all to know, as a full tithe payer and a guy who has a firm testimony of the book of mormon, that things like this in the manual really bother me.

Now, go ahead. Tell me how I am wrong for feeling this way.

[creator]

There is nothing wrong about feeling that way.

[ajax]

TITHING A COMMANDMENT FOR THE DESTITUTE, LYNN G. ROBBINS

In October of 1998 Hurricane Mitch devastated many parts of Central America. President Gordon B. Hinckley was very concerned for the victims of this disaster, many of whom lost everything—food, clothing, and household goods. He visited the Saints in the cities of San Pedro Sula and Tegucigalpa, Honduras; and Managua, Nicaragua. And like the words of the loving prophet Elijah to a starving widow, this modern prophet’s message in each city was similar—to sacrifice and be obedient to the law of tithing.

But how can you ask someone so destitute to sacrifice? President Hinckley knew that the food and clothing shipments they received would help them survive the crisis, but his concern and love for them went far beyond that. As important as humanitarian aid is, he knew that the most important assistance comes from God, not from man. The prophet wanted to help them unlock the windows of heaven as promised by the Lord in the book of Malachi (see Mal. 3:10; Mosiah 2:24).

“There is one thing under the sun which I have learned, and that is that the righteousness of man is sin because it exacteth over much; nevertheless, the righteousness of God is just, because it exacteth nothing at all, but sendeth the rain on the just and the unjust, seed time and harvest, for all of which man is ungrateful.” (JS)

[Obrien]

AussieOi dug that up a long time ago.

It really is a big deal. Using ellipses to change the meaning of a quote is very dishonest.

I realize, some people care about that kind of thing, and some people don't.

Does honesty have any place on this forum?

Forget this forum, does honesty have any place in LDS Corp teachings on tithing? They're the ones who added the ellipses to remove language that would cut into donations.

[creator]

Is it okay to quote Elder Orson Hyde on tithing? (he was President of the Quorum of the Twelve right around the time of this quote and remained so until 1875):

"The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See DandC 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after (See DandC 119:4). If it requires all man can earn to support himself and his family, he is not tithed at all. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

[David13]

The addition or subtraction of those words means nothing at all.
No person can ever do what they have not the means to do. Unless it's through divine intervention.
dc

[jbalm]

Then why bother taking them out?

[rewcox]

My experience is blessings do come from paying tithing. People should make an effort to do so.

I also think people should study, understand the beginnings, the last direction in 1980, then make their decision on what they will pay it on.

It is a matter of faith.

There seems to be a problem of late, maybe due to HG going read only.

I ask Joel, Jbalm, Ajax, Obrien and others what blessings come from attacking? Tithing, polygamy, leaders are constantly reviewed around here, ad nauesium.

[jbalm]

They're too sacred to talk about.

Pearls...swine...you know the deal.

[ajax]

I ask Joel, Jbalm, Ajax, Obrien and others what blessings come from attacking? discovering.

Er, truth.

[SempiternalHarbinger]

Thanks Joel! And thanks brian for that quote from Orson Hyde. Love it!

"I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing." -The Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Lorenzo Snow manual

Mosiah 4:24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.

Today, even if you have not, you are required to give. But that is NOT supported by scripture. The edit quote from Lorenzo Snow is interesting and telling. Why not just quote the whole thing? Simple answer is, it's not in agreement with today's teachings and practices. Why else leave it out? Why even quote it at all? Why does our standard works bible dictionary and indexes fail to mention Deut. 14:28-29, which states:

" At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest."

Why ignore it and leave it out? Because it's not in agreement with today's teachings and practices. The Lorenzo Snow quote unedited also happens to follow along the same lines as Joseph Smith's inspired version of Genesis 14 which states...

37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest, and the keeper of the storehouse of God;

38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.

39 Wherefore Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him MORE THAN THAT WHICH HE HAD NEED.” (Emphasis added.)

Abraham paid tithes of his increase, the amount "more than that which he had need". Practically all scriptures state that tithing is to be paid based on increase ( NOT INCOME). Why? Tithing on income hurts the poor whereas increase helps the poor. Christ ministry was centered on serving the poor, not taking from them. The modern LDS church either ignores or edits earlier teachings that go contrary to current practices. Just compare yesterday's teachings with the current.

Here is Orson Hyde (the past) who Brian already quoted...

The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after (See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

According to Orson Hyde it is against the Celestial Law to take the food off the plate of the hungry. I agree!! Christ NEVER took the food of the plate of the hungry, rather he feed them. Melchizedek and King Benjamin would also agree with Orson Hyde. This quote also compliments Genesis 14. I also LOVE the latter part of the quote that rings so true with me...

"The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father."

But the poor today are told to pay tithing before feeding their family, before taking care of their basic necessities of life or they are condemned and forbidden to enter the House of the Lord even though it is said that tithing is to be between them and the Lord. It clearly is not. At least not in my situation. Christ feed the hungry and was the greatest defender of the poor. He even said, "the poor are my people." I believe it is hypocritical of our leaders who do not have a care in the world to be exempt from tithing when they have way more than they need yet we demand the widow with 5 children to pay tithing off her welfare check or they are refused further help and denied temple blessings. It just isn't right imho.

Even if one has the law written in their heart and following the Spirit of the Lord, if it does not correlate with today's leaders, you will lose your recommended and be condemned with fire.

Now compare Orson Hyde's quote (past) with today's teachings... (One of many)

"If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing." (Aaron L. West, Sacred Transformations, December 2012)

What a drastic difference. I had my temple recommend stripped from me over 4 1/2 years ago over this issue. I told my leaders I had searched the scriptures diligently, prayed earnestly to the Lord and told them His answer to me. They didn't like the Lords answer to me. I also told them I knew I was a unprofitable servant, and I was doing my best to fulfill my covenants to live the law of consecration. My time, talents, money is the Lords. I live a modest life, live paycheck to paycheck, day to day, and even go without some basic necessities because I give to others who have less than me. I informed my leaders of the many family and friends of mine who were being rejected any help from the church and the Lord told me the church doesn't need my money, but rather the poor who I know do. Both my Stake President and Bishop could have cared less what the Lord told me. They even told me I was not listening to the brethren and therefore I could not possibly be listening to the spirit of the Lord as if they are one and the same. I was told I was being deceived by Satan. Yet it is supposedly between me and the Lord. Nope, It's only between you and the Lord as long as it conforms with the living. Sometimes I wonder if we even believe in personal revelation nowadays. Sadly, It's all lip service to me right now. Conform with the living or you are out of here. I got the memo. I have many family and friends who have been humiliated, I have been humiliated by my leaders for simply striving to serve others and to feed his sheep. The Lord knows the righteous desires of my heart. I serve God to the best of my ability and though the Lord has accepted my sacrifice the church does not. But at least I have peace knowing I am listening to His voice and living according to His will. It is really the only thing that is giving me the strength to continue on this path.

Joseph Smith was all about redeeming Zion but he failed. We will continue to fail as long as we keep practicing tithing the way we are and until drastic changes are made, there will always be poor among us and Zion is will always be out of sight. We can never have all things in common with the way tithing is taught and expected to be followed today. We need to open gates to the House of the Lord to the poor so we may start to have all things in common and start becoming more equal in all things. "That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things. For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things;" (D&C 78:5-6). We need to be filling up all these empty temples by allowing all, from the least to the greatest to partake in the blessings. Open the doors to the poor and the temple will no longer be empty, rather they will be full like noone has ever imagined. But until things change I suspect it will be as Joseph Smith and Hugh Nibley so eloquently state...

I preached in the grove on the keys of the Kingdom, Charity &c The keys are certain signs and words by which false spirits and personages may be detected from true, which cannot be revealed to the Elders till the Temple is completed--The rich can only get them in the Temple, the poor may get them on the mountain top as did Moses. The rich cannot be saved without charity, giving to feed the poor when and how God requires, as well as building. There are signs in heaven, earth and hell: the Elders must know them all, to be endowed with power, to finish their work and prevent imposition. The devil knows many signs, but does not know the sign of the Son of Man, or Jesus.

[ajax]

Letter from Heber C. Kimball to his wife Vilate and subsequently reprinted in Elders' Journal (Oct 1837) pp.4-7 detailing the early work and organisation of the church in the Lanchashire area, 1837:

Preston, Lancashire, England, September 2, 1837
My Dear Companion [Vilate Kimball],

....We have to live quite short but the brethren are very kind to us. They are willing to divide with us the last they have. They are quite ignorant; many of them cannot read a word and it needs great care to teach them the gospel so that they can understand. The people here are bound down under priestcraft in a manner I never saw before. They have to pay tithes to the priests of every tenth they raise, so that they cannot lay up one cent. They are in the same situation the children of Israel were in Egypt. They have their taskmasters over them to bind them down. It will be as great a miracle to deliver this people as it was the children of Israel.

There are a great many believing in Preston; we are baptizing almost every day.

Priestcraft says Heber

[shadow]

joel's no troll. obviously, you cannot comprehend simple English. is it so hard to fathom that the Church, that makes several billion per year promulgating a faulty view of history, has a simple reason to obfuscate this quote?

It didn't change the meaning.
Anyone who has an income, or "means", should pay 1/10 of that income as a tithe.

To be clear on his context of what tithing is, let's read what else he had to say-

"If a man receives 10 dollars, his tithing is 1 dollar; if he receives 100 dollars, his tithing is 10."

[jbalm]

I hope you don't work in the financial sector.

[Lizzy60]

If it's so simple, shadow, WHY WERE THE ELLIPSES USED INSTEAD OF THE ORIGINAL QUOTE?