LDS Freedom Forum

wargames83 wrote:

Bee Prepared wrote:Same sex marriage= moral decline, progressing at a rapid pace.

No it doesn't. In fact sames-sex marriage and being accepted into the mainstream in general could help gay people become more monogamous.

Bee Prepared wrote: I miss the old America.

How old are you talking here? Go back far enough and you will reach the days when state governors could sign death warrants against Mormons. You could try to appeal to the Federal government to for protection from a state that is trying to kill you but the President would just say,"‘Gentlemen, your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you". Ah, good old states rights in action! There's nothing like the good old days, right?

Bee Prepared wrote: Prayer in school was common, immorality wasn't

Teen pregnancies have gone down considerably since the early 90s (though it is still pretty high throughout much of the South and Southwest). http://www.hhs.gov/ash/oah/adolescent-h ... rends.html

Bee Prepared wrote: , there were no condom machines in the bathrooms. Every day at school started with the pledge of allegiance.

Better talk to Ezra if you think reciting the pledge is a good thing. Do you really want your kids reciting something written by socialist?

Bee Prepared wrote: We are now on the brink of economic disaster, illegals flooding into our country, children being taught in school that homosexuality is a normal lifestyle, and not accepting it is intolerant and small minded. How have we gone this far astray?

Strange that they are taught that homosexuality is a lifestyle rather than a sexual orientation. Are you sure you got that right?

Bee Prepared wrote: I remember my Father working hard to support our family, teaching us that accepting government handouts was a disgrace.

Yes, it is disgrace when someone who could work chooses not to and takes government handouts instead, but it also a disgrace that we let the handicapped, disabled, mentally ill, and other genuinely unemployed people live out in the streets in hunger.

What is this garbage?

Your mind has been poisoned my friend.

Please, get on your knees and starting praying again. Study the scriptures.

Go talk to your Bishop.

I will pray for you.

Bee, I am with you 100%. When I was a kids we all knew that being gay was a sin, that is why people kept it to themselves...they were ashamed.

Now even some in the church claim that people are born that way....BULLOCKS

If it was not for the wisdom and guidance of those 15 Prophets at the top, I cannot even imagine where my Church would be today.

Stay strong Bee and don't let those deceived by the serpent bully you.

MormonPatriot wrote:Bee, I am with you 100%. When I was a kids we all knew that being gay was a sin, that is why people kept it to themselves...they were ashamed.

Now even some in the church claim that people are born that way....BULLOCKS

If it was not for the wisdom and guidance of those 15 Prophets at the top, I cannot even imagine where my Church would be today.

Stay strong Bee and don't let those deceived by the serpent bully you.

FYI, the leadership of the Church now agree that some people are "born that way."

Also, Bee has been banned from the forum, so she is able to read your comment addressed to her, but she will not be able to respond. I just want to make sure you don't get your feelings hurt if she seems to be ignoring your support.

Lizzy60 wrote:

MormonPatriot wrote:Bee, I am with you 100%. When I was a kids we all knew that being gay was a sin, that is why people kept it to themselves...they were ashamed.

Now even some in the church claim that people are born that way....BULLOCKS

If it was not for the wisdom and guidance of those 15 Prophets at the top, I cannot even imagine where my Church would be today.

Stay strong Bee and don't let those deceived by the serpent bully you.

FYI, the leadership of the Church now agree that some people are "born that way."

Also, Bee has been banned from the forum, so she is able to read your comment addressed to her, but she will not be able to respond. I just want to make sure you don't get your feelings hurt if she seems to be ignoring your support.

Has one of the 15 Prophets said it? I doubt it.

Out of curiosity, why was she banned?

Elder Holland referenced a person that suffered from same sex attraction that did make it to the promised land.

So no, not born that way.

MormonPatriot wrote:
Out of curiosity, why was she banned?

Because she didn't put those little hearts after her posts like Robert does.

Actually, I have no idea why she was banned but I do find it odd that she was banned while others aren't.

Bee Prepared was banned for repeated violation of the forum rules after multiple warnings.

Sirocco wrote:

captainfearnot wrote:

Bee Prepared wrote:I miss the old America.

When exactly was the old America? Can you put a year on it? Or a decade? According to your chart, American culture peaked in the 1950s. Is that your view, or did you have another time in mind?

Well if you were white.

If you were black in America in the 1950s, your life was not as good as it was for whites in the 50s, if that's all you want to look at. If you want to compare life for blacks in the 50s and compare it to life in the 90s for blacks, you'll find they were better off in nearly every way in the 50s. Certainly in dignity, which is necessary for any growth to occur.

If you want to widen your view, being black in America in the 1950s vs. being black ANYWHERE in Africa in the 1950s, it's a no brainer. A crap hole in Alabama in the 50s was Shangri-La compared to pretty much anywhere blacks lived in Africa then.

So there must have been progress, right? Let's compare being black in America in the 50s to being black in Liberia, Ivory Coast, any country with either Guinea or Congo in its name today. What? You mean those and a majority of other places in Africa today are STILL worse than hell compared to the 50s America?

The lowest slums of my own ethnic group, Native Americans may be Third World-like conditions, but I guarantee you all the kids get fed every day at least twice at school, almost every one of them have a newer iPhone than I do, and Nikes that cost a lot more than my Oxfords. Oh, and they all live in a house with cable or satellite and a BIG TV, have at least one car, and more than enough alcohol to convince themselves that they're still subjugated.

Before you decry how hard life was for a group, state what the parameters of comparison are.

What REAL poverty was, and why remaining in it is a CHOICE, not a sentence.

wargames83 wrote:

captainfearnot wrote:How low can America go?

Seems like the easiest way to answer that question would be to read a history book.

We could legalize slavery. We could legalize sweatshops, child labor, indentured servitude. We could set up internment camps for the Japanese. We could cheat on virtually every deal we cut with the Native Americans. We could we disenfranchise everyone but white male landowners. We could enable folks like McCarthy in their political witch hunts. We could promote eugenics. Etc.

Turns out we can go pretty low.

Awesome post. Those who keep going on and on about how everything is getting worse definitely have a limited view of history and are looking at things only one way.

And those who make silly statements like that have a pretty limited view of the history of the world, and how our country has fared in it. Through most of our history, much of the country and even some, if not most of the parts of the government tried the best they could to do good for all. Some hubris and ignorance (not to mention vanity and pride) have certainly led us to make mistakes, but we done as well as any and better than most to make up for them along the way.

captainfearnot wrote:We could legalize slavery.

When we became a country, it already existed. Many of our forebears worked hard from the start to eliminate it.

We could legalize sweatshops, child labor, indentured servitude.

Yeah, we did have that, we've worked to eliminate it, too.

We could set up internment camps for the Japanese.

Massive fear (helped by Roosevelt) led to this, but we've done what we could along the way to make reparations and apologize as a nation.

We could cheat on virtually every deal we cut with the Native Americans.

Already did that. over the last Century we've tried to give them the things they need to assimilate into our culture or continue on their own. For the most part, these things were used to get drunk and perpetuate poverty and hate.

We could we disenfranchise everyone but white male landowners.

Probably closer to being a good idea than a bad one. Make a couple of modifications and I'd be fine with it. Telling me that an 18 year old airhead who knows all the Kardashians and only 3 of the state names should have the same right to vote as I do will be met with HUGE belly laughs from me, and I've got one heck of a belly.

We could enable folks like McCarthy in their political witch hunts.

If you don't think that the GOP, the Liberal Loony Left, MSNBC, and pretty much every SuperPAC there is isn't already on a witch hunt, you've been disobeying the Word of Wisdom's rule about alcohol too much.

MormonPatriot wrote:Now even some in the church claim that people are born that way....BULLOCKS

I agree with the first part, but I have to disagree with this one. Some people ARE born that way, it's kind of like their own cross to bear. I have a friend I worked with who is/was gay. A girl we worked with grew up with him and said he was always a little girly boy, it never bothered either of them because she was a real tomboy (but she liked guys.) He was never molested, grew up in a strong LDS household, taught the gospel all his life, but was always confused by his desire to be gay with another man. To his credit, he never did (more than I can say) and he eventually married a girl who was the same as him but lesbian (celibate with desires.) They became friends, married, have several children, but both have still said they occasionally feel the pangs they've always had. They take great strength from one another. They're kind of a weird couple to me, because he's über goofy looking and she's a 9.5 hottie, but they're a real inspiration to me.

A friend I grew p with never understood how I could have a crush on just about every girl in our Stake growing up, and several in nearby Stakes at the same time. I never understood his lackadaisical attitude about girls. I liked them all, I wanted them all. He's married, very happily, one wife, one love, no affairs, no temptations to cheat, no desire. I went the other way: If it moved I tried to jump it. I learned along the way to my horror what I was doing, but the desire is still there. I was born how I was, he was born how he was.

Nature AND nurture can both contribute. How we deal with our strengths and weaknesses will be how we're judged.

shadow wrote:Actually, I have no idea why she was banned but I do find it odd that she was banned while others aren't.

Brian is good about giving multiple warnings. I've had 2, but one was because I responded in the heat of the moment before I allowed my anger to something cool. I responded from my gut in a pretty profane way. I apologized shortly thereafter because it was ungentlemanly. I didn't understand the second, seemed silly to me but I still apologized and changed my posting habits. Brian handles things well from all I've seen.

skmo wrote:

wargames83 wrote:

captainfearnot wrote:How low can America go?

Seems like the easiest way to answer that question would be to read a history book.

We could legalize slavery. We could legalize sweatshops, child labor, indentured servitude. We could set up internment camps for the Japanese. We could cheat on virtually every deal we cut with the Native Americans. We could we disenfranchise everyone but white male landowners. We could enable folks like McCarthy in their political witch hunts. We could promote eugenics. Etc.

Turns out we can go pretty low.

Awesome post. Those who keep going on and on about how everything is getting worse definitely have a limited view of history and are looking at things only one way.

And those who make silly statements like that have a pretty limited view of the history of the world, and how our country has fared in it. Through most of our history, much of the country and even some, if not most of the parts of the government tried the best they could to do good for all. Some hubris and ignorance (not to mention vanity and pride) have certainly led us to make mistakes, but we done as well as any and better than most to make up for them along the way.

I really don't see what is silly about my statement. I didn't claim that everything has gotten better, because I don't believe it has. I do think a lot of things have gotten better. I really don't think anyone could make the argument that the parts of the government that condoned genocide against American Indians, slavery, The Trail of Tears, the occupation of the Philippines Jim Crow, the Tuskegee experiments, ect. where benevolent towards the people they were oppressing.

skmo wrote:

MormonPatriot wrote:Now even some in the church claim that people are born that way....BULLOCKS

I agree with the first part, but I have to disagree with this one. Some people ARE born that way, it's kind of like their own cross to bear. I have a friend I worked with who is/was gay. A girl we worked with grew up with him and said he was always a little girly boy, it never bothered either of them because she was a real tomboy (but she liked guys.) He was never molested, grew up in a strong LDS household, taught the gospel all his life, but was always confused by his desire to be gay with another man. To his credit, he never did (more than I can say) and he eventually married a girl who was the same as him but lesbian (celibate with desires.) They became friends, married, have several children, but both have still said they occasionally feel the pangs they've always had. They take great strength from one another. They're kind of a weird couple to me, because he's über goofy looking and she's a 9.5 hottie, but they're a real inspiration to me.

A friend I grew p with never understood how I could have a crush on just about every girl in our Stake growing up, and several in nearby Stakes at the same time. I never understood his lackadaisical attitude about girls. I liked them all, I wanted them all. He's married, very happily, one wife, one love, no affairs, no temptations to cheat, no desire. I went the other way: If it moved I tried to jump it. I learned along the way to my horror what I was doing, but the desire is still there. I was born how I was, he was born how he was.

Nature AND nurture can both contribute. How we deal with our strengths and weaknesses will be how we're judged.

I do not believe anyone is born gay.
I believe there are people who are wired in such a way that in certain circumstances and exposed to certain environmental influences they are very likely to develop such a condition.

When they claim they were born that way they are being untruthful for the simple reason that no one can remember when they were born, or anything for the first approximately 3 years of life.
They may mean they have felt that way for as long as they can remember, but that is not even close to being the same thing.

wargames83 wrote:I really don't think anyone could make the argument that the parts of the government that condoned genocide against American Indians, slavery, The Trail of Tears, the occupation of the Philippines Jim Crow, the Tuskegee experiments, ect. where benevolent towards the people they were oppressing.

Other than me, one of the descendants of those Natives, other members of my family, some of the Native parents of Native children I've taught, others I've encountered in my life's experience of working with mainly Native families. Are most still very bitter about it? Sure. However, some of us see a larger picture of history and are a little more understanding of the growing pains we had, and recognize that they're similar to other far too numerous to list, and yet recognize that our country's done a much better job of trying to make amends than most.

I understand the concept of Manifest Destiny. While I disagree with it in large part, I also believe, based on my reading of the Book of Mormon, that things may not have had to happen as violently as they did, they nonetheless did have to happen. I can more easily forgive the blinders of others since I've had my own violently ripped off me and had my eyes burned. I faced a small portion of the discriminations others did, but I still overcame them to succeed in climbing in my place. I have more education and better opportunities than either of my parents did.

Robin Hood wrote:I do not believe anyone is born gay.
I believe there are people who are wired in such a way that in certain circumstances and exposed to certain environmental influences they are very likely to develop such a condition.

Then why are some born with such an OVERWHELMINGLY larger tendency to suffer from addictions than others? Irishmen tend to have a stereotype of heavy drinkers, yes? Compared to a Native American who drinks, an Irishman is practically a teetotaller. Why do I have such a ridiculously oversized libido compared to even stereotypical construction workers? I'm sorry, but I dismiss your theory of things happening before functional memory kicks in. As a Special Education teacher, I've seen far too many differences in the behavior of children to think we're all born "equal" (with apologies to then-delegate Jefferson from Virginia) in most anything but God's love. Different abilities, different desires, different gifts to share and challenges to overcome.

When they claim they were born that way they are being untruthful for the simple reason that no one can remember when they were born, or anything for the first approximately 3 years of life.
They may mean they have felt that way for as long as they can remember, but that is not even close to being the same thing.

"Untruthful?" Truth is one of those things that can very greatly from person to person, so when discussing things like this I'd prefer sticking to facts, unless something is plainly proclaimed as a belief. To me, it seems you're implying the person is unknowingly being dishonest. I'd be quite carful about accusing someone of dishonesty. However, as I said above, we're born to grow anywhere from 2.5 feet tall to almost 9 feet (although the "normal" range is much closer) so why aren't we all born to be 5'5" tall equally? I had never done any strength training in my life, but when I got into 10th grade Physical Ed. I could leg press 1200 lbs, by far more than the biggest HS Senior on the football team. Why was I born with such abnormally strong legs? Brother Joseph was not only large and strong, he was born with a great number of other spiritual gifts that he developed into a great servant, so why was it him who did that and not Asa Packer, born the same year as him who instead went on to found a university and greatly influence railroad construction? Differences - I do believe some are inherent. It's how we use or abuse them that is important, not that they exist.

How much of our attributes, characters, desires, righteousness, unrighteousness, and everything that makes us individuals, was formed in the eons of time before we entered our mortal probation?

Joseph Smith progressed to a point that he was ready to see God and Christ at the age of 14, and be taught by the Angel Moroni, and begin the restoration of the gospel, all at a very youthful, relatively uneducated point in his mortal life. I believe we all agree that he had proved himself before coming to Earth, insomuch that he was destined to be the Prophet Joseph.

We don't know how old Jeremiah was, but it doesn't change what God told him --- "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you came to birth I consecrated you; I appointed you as prophet to the nations." It seems clear that this was a very righteous man long before he was born on earth.

A third part of those in our pre-Earth existence chose to follow Satan, and give up any advantage of receiving a mortal body. Was this the only decision they were ever confronted with during that previous existence? Of course not. Just as Joseph, Jeremiah, and many other people whose righteous lives are recorded for us, were obviously making many righteous choices, and were steadfast in their loyalty and love for Christ, so that we know that they were numbered as His sheep before their birth on Earth, there are others who began choosing unrighteousness to such a degree that they knowingly aligned with the Devil himself.

Between these two extremes are all the rest of the wheat and tares. The parable taught by Christ tells us that the Devil has planted tares in the field (the Earth) and Christ has sown His wheat. We know these are mortals living on the Earth, because both groups grow together, and it's hard for us to tell one from the other, until they are ripe.

I believe this means that there is an infinite continuum between someone like Joseph and someone like Hitler or Stalin (there are many examples of this divide between good and evil men). I will never believe that both Joseph and Hitler were born as "clean slates." Because God is no respecter of persons, I don't believe any of us were born as "clean slates." I believe we made many choices in our pre-Earth life that affected the circumstances of who we are here. Many of our most basic characteristics, the traits that we inherently "know" make up who we are, are characteristics formed in a time that we have no knowledge of.

What we don't know is how those traits are destined to become part of our trials and tribulations. Why was Alma the Younger such a hellion before God interrupted his path? Perhaps he needed to be able to experience the contrast. Perhaps he was used as an example to anyone hearing or reading his experience, that we can't judge that someone is a lost cause based on their current activities. Maybe God will be interrupting their paths in a future day.

This is why I believe that some people are born with homosexual desires. I believe this was a choice they made before coming here, and it is therefore a trial they need to endure here, or be healed of here, or whatever is the will of God for that particular individual. Each case is individual, and in almost every case, God will not tell us bystanders what His plan is -- or who His sheep are, and aren't.

He knows His sheep. They are numbered to Him. His father gave them to Him. In John 8, Christ told a group of men that their father was the devil, because He was able to discern their hearts. Well, they weren't dead yet, so how did Christ know who their father was? If Christ knew that their father was the devil, and that they were not of His fold, how could it be possible for Christ not to know who each of us is?

I believe with all my heart that He already knows who we are. However, that knowledge is hidden from us because of the veil. We can't judge whether another person is a Paul, a Peter, or a Judas. We don't know if our child is an Alma the Younger, or a sheep in wolf's clothing. All we can do is strive to hear the voice of Christ, the Holy Spirit, and to treat all others as if they are His sheep, not pre-judging their righteousness or unrighteousness.

skmo wrote:

Sirocco wrote:

captainfearnot wrote:

Bee Prepared wrote:I miss the old America.

When exactly was the old America? Can you put a year on it? Or a decade? According to your chart, American culture peaked in the 1950s. Is that your view, or did you have another time in mind?

Well if you were white.

If you were black in America in the 1950s, your life was not as good as it was for whites in the 50s, if that's all you want to look at. If you want to compare life for blacks in the 50s and compare it to life in the 90s for blacks, you'll find they were better off in nearly every way in the 50s. Certainly in dignity, which is necessary for any growth to occur.

How is living under Jim Crow in any way dignified?

MormonPatriot wrote:

wargames83 wrote:

Bee Prepared wrote:Same sex marriage= moral decline, progressing at a rapid pace.

No it doesn't. In fact sames-sex marriage and being accepted into the mainstream in general could help gay people become more monogamous.

Bee Prepared wrote: I miss the old America.

How old are you talking here? Go back far enough and you will reach the days when state governors could sign death warrants against Mormons. You could try to appeal to the Federal government to for protection from a state that is trying to kill you but the President would just say,"‘Gentlemen, your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you". Ah, good old states rights in action! There's nothing like the good old days, right?

Bee Prepared wrote: Prayer in school was common, immorality wasn't

Teen pregnancies have gone down considerably since the early 90s (though it is still pretty high throughout much of the South and Southwest). http://www.hhs.gov/ash/oah/adolescent-h ... rends.html

Bee Prepared wrote: , there were no condom machines in the bathrooms. Every day at school started with the pledge of allegiance.

Better talk to Ezra if you think reciting the pledge is a good thing. Do you really want your kids reciting something written by socialist?

Bee Prepared wrote: We are now on the brink of economic disaster, illegals flooding into our country, children being taught in school that homosexuality is a normal lifestyle, and not accepting it is intolerant and small minded. How have we gone this far astray?

Strange that they are taught that homosexuality is a lifestyle rather than a sexual orientation. Are you sure you got that right?

Bee Prepared wrote: I remember my Father working hard to support our family, teaching us that accepting government handouts was a disgrace.

Yes, it is disgrace when someone who could work chooses not to and takes government handouts instead, but it also a disgrace that we let the handicapped, disabled, mentally ill, and other genuinely unemployed people live out in the streets in hunger.

What is this garbage?

Your mind has been poisoned my friend.

Please, get on your knees and starting praying again. Study the scriptures.

Go talk to your Bishop.

I will pray for you.

That "garbage" is my view on the subject. Do you have any actual arguments on my views. Saying my mind has been poisoned and that I need to pray doesn't count as an argument.

wargames83 wrote:How is living under Jim Crow in any way dignified?

Because poor blacks still largely worked for what they got, and as angry as they may have been about not having as many opportunities as whites, they still earned their bread. Look at a lot of reservations and Alaska Native villages and inner cities today and you'll find people who no longer believe they should have to work for anything because it's owed to them due to their heritage. Oh, and the "heritage" all too often means little to nothing more to them personally than a weapon to wield.

How does that relate to dignity? Over the last couple of centuries, many poor have come for opportunity. They came poor, lived poor, but always worked to improve. Generation after generation did. They progressed because they kept believing in themselves, because even when things were hard, even when some things failed, they could still find opportunities to climb. The poor Irish, the poor Czechs, the poor Greeks and Italians, and of course, the poor Jews. They kept trying because it kept working. When LBJ's "Great Society" came along, poor blacks learned relatively quickly that in a rich world that it was often easier to appear poor to get better taken are of.

A poor black in the 40s who had to use a different bathroom in Georgia but had a home with a mother and a father who kept insisting their kids go to church and to school is still better off in my mind than a homeboy dealer with 5 Ho's with 6 children they don't see waiting for Wic and Tanf.

wargames83 wrote:

Bee Prepared wrote:Same sex marriage= moral decline, progressing at a rapid pace.

No it doesn't. In fact sames-sex marriage and being accepted into the mainstream in general could help gay people become more monogamous.

Nope. Monogamous gay couples are just as much moral debauchery as partying gay couples. It's also as immoral as sexually active singles. Adultery, when a husband or wife cheats on the other raises the level to even more grievous.

SSM is legal in our country, so yes, it is a legal right. Regardless of this, there is no way in God's Plan that any homosexual activity is moral.

skmo wrote:

wargames83 wrote:

Bee Prepared wrote:Same sex marriage= moral decline, progressing at a rapid pace.

No it doesn't. In fact sames-sex marriage and being accepted into the mainstream in general could help gay people become more monogamous.

Nope. Monogamous gay couples are just as much moral debauchery as partying gay couples. It's also as immoral as sexually active singles. Adultery, when a husband or wife cheats on the other raises the level to even more grievous.

SSM is legal in our country, so yes, it is a legal right. Regardless of this, there is no way in God's Plan that any homosexual activity is moral.

We will have to agree to disagree about God's Plan, but last I checked the idea that all sin is equal is not part of LDS theology.

wargames83 wrote:We will have to agree to disagree about God's Plan,

Are you saying that homosexual activity is allowable somehow? That would go against God's commandments according to the doctrine of the LDS Church.

but last I checked the idea that all sin is equal is not part of LDS theology.

From where are you taking this, from something I said? I can't recall suggesting all sin is the same, although I will say we believe all sin is equally damning unless repented of. God cannot allow the least degree of sin. In my previous post I did say t hat a monogamous gay couple would be sinning to the same extend as a partying (swinging, multiple partner, however you want to put it) couple would be, but I also said that adultery, when a husband or wife cheat on each other is a higher level of sin. In my understanding of things, a gay couple has no marriage to "cheat" on since God would not recognize a same sex marriage, going against His plan of man being married to woman.

skmo wrote: From where are you taking this, from something I said? I can't recall suggesting all sin is the same, although I will say we believe all sin is equally damning unless repented of. God cannot allow the least degree of sin. In my previous post I did say t hat a monogamous gay couple would be sinning to the same extend as a partying (swinging, multiple partner, however you want to put it) couple would be, but I also said that adultery, when a husband or wife cheat on each other is a higher level of sin. In my understanding of things, a gay couple has no marriage to "cheat" on since God would not recognize a same sex marriage, going against His plan of man being married to woman.

You don't believe that people have an obligation to be honest with each other? If a gay couple agree to be in a monogamous relationship and one person is unfaithful, then that is cheating, which is immoral. If a gay person does not enter a monogamous relationship and is promiscuous then he is living a more risky lifestyle.

My only point is that if two gay men live together committedly all their lives and have sex only with the other, it's the same grievous sin as when one guy goes through his life having sex with ten guys or a hundred guys or a thousand guys. To my mind, homosexual activity does not have a "well at least this is better than that" characteristic barring lack of consent or outside entanglements. Obviously age and willing consent matter, as well as if one of the guys is married to a woman, that's adultery and is worse to my mind. Gay people can't be married for God's purposes, so gay marriage doesn't exist outside of the idiotic laws of man.