LDS Freedom Forum

Tony wrote:The case of David Whitmer proves that people will listen to the whisperings of Satan and think they are receiving revelation from God through the Holy Ghost. They believe that the Holy Ghost is telling them something contrary to what the prophet and the Church are telling them, which means they will go against the prophet and the Church. The problem is that they are actually listening to Satan.

Jezebel wrote:When I was 19 years old, I was out with my YSA friends one night and during the course of the evening I realized that I had never asked the Lord if it was all true. I determined not to sleep that night until I had asked of God and received an answer.

When I got home, I got ready for bed as usual and then sat down on my bed and prayed and read my scriptures alternately for the next half an hour seeking an answer to the question of whether or not the church is true. I was a wimp. By the end of the 30 minutes I could hardly keep my eyes open and so I crawled into bed with the resolution that I would try again the next day.

As I lay there on the verge of sleep, a vision opened up to my mind. It was a diagram of the hierarchy of the church. Each office was represented by a box with a picture in it of the man who occupied that office. It branched out showing the different levels and how each man was connected to the others until it reached my own stake president and bishop. The most interesting part was each of the pictures were animated, showing the men actually going about their work in the church, each in their suits and ties, some with their jackets off and sleeves rolled up, some interacting with other people. Think of the Harry Potter pictures.

That was my answer. I thanked the Lord and drifted off to sleep. I dedicated my life to the church because I no longer believed, I knew.

When I was on my mission I told the story to a companion. The moment I mentioned I had had a vision she denied it. She wouldn't believe that I would be given a vision. I questioned the terminology I was using but never could question the experience. I knew what I saw.

My point here is that so many church members deny the workings of the Spirit even in the context of the church. How can you know the church is truly Jesus' church unless you have asked of God and received an answer? How can you really know President Monson is a prophet of God when you have not received a witness of God? The logical explanations of succession can be just as logically broken apart, but your own personal witness of God cannot.

If you get up in sacrament meeting and claim to know the church is true, and you have not yet asked of God, I challenge you to do so. Otherwise your words are a lie and there will come a time when you will be tested in them and you will fail. But if you know from the Lord, nothing will be able to shake you.

You mean you can receive additional witnesses for the same thing?

JohnnyL wrote:

You mean you can receive additional witnesses for the same thing?

Won't speak for others, but yes, one can and usually does. For example, how many times did you feel the Spirit teaching the same discussion? How many times have you felt the Spirit in the endowment session?

Tony wrote:The case of David Whitmer proves that people will listen to the whisperings of Satan and think they are receiving revelation from God through the Holy Ghost.

Tony wrote:They believe that the Holy Ghost is telling them something contrary to what the prophet and the Church are telling them, which means they will go against the prophet and the Church. The problem is that they are actually listening to Satan.

Bee Prepared wrote:

Jezebel wrote:When I was 19 years old, I was out with my YSA friends one night and during the course of the evening I realized that I had never asked the Lord if it was all true. I determined not to sleep that night until I had asked of God and received an answer.

When I got home, I got ready for bed as usual and then sat down on my bed and prayed and read my scriptures alternately for the next half an hour seeking an answer to the question of whether or not the church is true. I was a wimp. By the end of the 30 minutes I could hardly keep my eyes open and so I crawled into bed with the resolution that I would try again the next day.

As I lay there on the verge of sleep, a vision opened up to my mind. It was a diagram of the hierarchy of the church. Each office was represented by a box with a picture in it of the man who occupied that office. It branched out showing the different levels and how each man was connected to the others until it reached my own stake president and bishop. The most interesting part was each of the pictures were animated, showing the men actually going about their work in the church, each in their suits and ties, some with their jackets off and sleeves rolled up, some interacting with other people. Think of the Harry Potter pictures.

That was my answer. I thanked the Lord and drifted off to sleep. I dedicated my life to the church because I no longer believed, I knew.

When I was on my mission I told the story to a companion. The moment I mentioned I had had a vision she denied it. She wouldn't believe that I would be given a vision. I questioned the terminology I was using but never could question the experience. I knew what I saw.

My point here is that so many church members deny the workings of the Spirit even in the context of the church. How can you know the church is truly Jesus' church unless you have asked of God and received an answer? How can you really know President Monson is a prophet of God when you have not received a witness of God? The logical explanations of succession can be just as logically broken apart, but your own personal witness of God cannot.

If you get up in sacrament meeting and claim to know the church is true, and you have not yet asked of God, I challenge you to do so. Otherwise your words are a lie and there will come a time when you will be tested in them and you will fail. But if you know from the Lord, nothing will be able to shake you.

You can also receive a personal witness many times. I can without a doubt, say that I know. This knowledge has guided my life, I can't imagine
living without it.

KMCopeland wrote:

Tony wrote:The case of David Whitmer proves that people will listen to the whisperings of Satan and think they are receiving revelation from God through the Holy Ghost.

So true.

Tony wrote:They believe that the Holy Ghost is telling them something contrary to what the prophet and the Church are telling them, which means they will go against the prophet and the Church. The problem is that they are actually listening to Satan.

Okay.

First you said that people can confuse the whisperings of Satan with revelation from God through the Holy Ghost. Then it appeared that you were re-emphasizing that thought, only you said they believe that the Holy Ghost is telling them something contrary, not to what God was telling them, but to what the prophet and the Church were telling them. As if "God and the Holy Spirit" are the same thing as "the prophet and the Church." They may be close. But it seems important to remember they are separate entities. Moving in the same direction? Yes. Sharing the goals of the immortality and eternal life of man? Yes. But distinct from each other? Yes. They always have been. They still are. I think the Brethren themselves would say that too.

pjbrownie wrote:I love David Whitmer's testimony, and honestly, what's happening in the Church today, makes him seem like a prophet all the more, as he was able to see the LDS rejecting the fullness of the gospel as prophesied in 3 Nephi 16. David Whitmer left the Church because they tried to kill him in Missouri; he probably would have stayed if Sydney didn't have it out for him. I certainly don't blame him. I think he was wrong about Joseph being a fallen prophet, if anything he got it mixed up, Joseph became a prophet to a fallen people, like Moses did, not because of anything Joseph did, but because of the people.

Of all the pretenders and contenders for the LDS empire after Joseph's death, his quiet ministry in the Church of Christ was the most unpretentious.

He did NOT say the Doctrine and Covenants was not the word of God. He said that after the Book of Commandments (the original D&C) there were too many changes and false revelations for it to be trusted. I can see his point, since after 1832, the Church was under condemnation and revelations given, specifically for Church governance, were given to a people living a lower law precisely because they rejected the fullness of the Gospel in the Book of Mormon. And revelations were altered and changed to fit Brigham's narrative. The original Book of Commandments are scripture to his church.

If I was alive in late 1800's, I would have taken Whitmer's Church of Christ, over Brigham's polygamist, murdering, secret combinations based kingdom of Deseret, or the tip-toeing RLDS Church of Joseph III. Whitmer's seems to have the best of the original spirit of the Restoration, even with all of it's own errors and misconceptions.

For those that want to learn more about his testimony, you can find it here: http://www.weepingforzion.com/david-whi ... -delusion/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tony wrote:

KMCopeland wrote:

Tony wrote:The case of David Whitmer proves that people will listen to the whisperings of Satan and think they are receiving revelation from God through the Holy Ghost.

So true.

Tony wrote:They believe that the Holy Ghost is telling them something contrary to what the prophet and the Church are telling them, which means they will go against the prophet and the Church. The problem is that they are actually listening to Satan.

Okay.

First you said that people can confuse the whisperings of Satan with revelation from God through the Holy Ghost. Then it appeared that you were re-emphasizing that thought, only you said they believe that the Holy Ghost is telling them something contrary, not to what God was telling them, but to what the prophet and the Church were telling them. As if "God and the Holy Spirit" are the same thing as "the prophet and the Church." They may be close. But it seems important to remember they are separate entities. Moving in the same direction? Yes. Sharing the goals of the immortality and eternal life of man? Yes. But distinct from each other? Yes. They always have been. They still are. I think the Brethren themselves would say that too.

When David Whitmer went against the prophet and the Church, he went against God. Anyone who goes against the prophet and the Church goes against God. Satan has told them to go against the prophet and the Church because Satan knows that it means going against God.

Satan's victims fail to realize his ploy because they think the Holy Ghost is telling them to go against the Church, or stop paying their tithing, or violate the Word of Wisdom, or telling them to do anything else that will keep them out of the Celestial Kingdom.

We receive direction from Jesus Christ's servants. When we go in a different direction, the end thereof is eternal damnation. Those who travel in a different direction must speedily repent and return to the correct path or they will be found at the left hand of God.

pjbrownie wrote:For those that want to learn more about his testimony, you can find it here: http://www.weepingforzion.com/david-whi ... -delusion/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Joseph was at my father’s house when they returned. I was there also, and am an eye witness to these facts. Jacob Whitmer and John Whitmer were also present when Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery returned from Canada. Well, we were all in great trouble; and we asked Joseph how it was that he had received a revelation from the Lord for some brethren to go to Toronto and sell the copy-right, and the brethren had utterly failed in their undertaking. Joseph did not know how it was, so he enquired of the Lord about it, and behold the following revelation came through the stone: “Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of men: and some revelations are of the devil.” So we see that the revelation to go to Toronto and sell the copy-right was not of God, but was of the devil or of the heart of man. When a man enquires of the Lord concerning a matter, if he is deceived by his own carnal desires, and is in error, he will receive an answer according to his erring heart, but it will not be a revelation from the Lord. This was a lesson for our benefit and we should have profited by it in future more than we did. Without much explanation you can see the error of Hyrum Smith in thinking evil of Martin Harris without a cause, and desiring to leave him out in the publication of the Book; and also the error of Brother Joseph in listening to the persuasions of men and enquiring of the Lord to see if they might not go to Toronto to sell the copy-right of the Book of Mormon, when it was made known to Brother Joseph that the will of the Lord was to have Martin Harris raise the money.

Tony wrote:...The case of David Whitmer proves that people will listen to the whisperings of Satan and think they are receiving revelation from God through the Holy Ghost. They believe that the Holy Ghost is telling them something contrary to what the prophet and the Church are telling them, which means they will go against the prophet and the Church. The problem is that they are actually listening to Satan.

Tausha Larsen
May 20, 2015 at 10:31 am

I have been filled with the Holy Ghost since the retreat. My body is burning from head to foot. It leaves at times, but as soon as I turn my focus back to Christ, I am filled again. I know this is the physical effects of the Holy Ghost. The last time I experienced this was after Denver’s eight and ninth lectures. It lasted for about 2 weeks. Then life and the world took over again, and I lost some of my connection with heaven.

Praise be to God for speaking to Bret and to organize this retreat. I had an entire weekend filled with association with the most loving and Christ like people I have ever known. You all give me greater desire to rise up and become more like Christ, so I can be with you all in Zion.

Thank you Tim for your comments and for providing a forum for us to leave our thoughts and feelings about the retreat. I appreciate your blog so much.

I was commenting to my husband Adrian yesterday that I am so glad that we brought our children to the retreat. It was so good for them to realize that there are other children in this movement besides our good friends in Boise. They experienced the talks, the love, the unity, the testimonies, the sacrament, and a group of believers getting together to come to Christ and praise the Lord. There is something about meeting together that is powerful. I am so pleased they were part of it.
There were many beautiful souls in attendance. I’m so glad to have met and associated with you. May God be with us til we meet again!

inquirringmind wrote:

Tony wrote:...The case of David Whitmer proves that people will listen to the whisperings of Satan and think they are receiving revelation from God through the Holy Ghost. They believe that the Holy Ghost is telling them something contrary to what the prophet and the Church are telling them, which means they will go against the prophet and the Church. The problem is that they are actually listening to Satan.

If Joseph Smith was a prophet, and David Whitmer apostatized, how do you know Whitmer wasn't just plain lying when he said he received a witness that the Doctrine and Covenants weren't inspired? So, you are saying that David Whitmer could have actually received a witness from the Holy Ghost that the Doctrine and Covenants are God's word, but Satan told David Whitmer to lie about knowing the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word, and David Whitmer thought it would be a good idea to go with what Satan wants instead of testifying to the truth?

Why would He allow Whitmer and his followers to receive some kind of witness they couldn't distinguish from The Holy Spirit? God allows Satan to tempt everyone. They did not "receive some kind of witness." They gave heed to Satan's whisperings. Their lack of faith caused them to believe that the whisperings of Satan were revelations from God.

And what do you make of this?

Tausha Larsen
May 20, 2015 at 10:31 am

I have been filled with the Holy Ghost since the retreat. My body is burning from head to foot. It leaves at times, but as soon as I turn my focus back to Christ, I am filled again. I know this is the physical effects of the Holy Ghost. The last time I experienced this was after Denver’s eight and ninth lectures. It lasted for about 2 weeks. Then life and the world took over again, and I lost some of my connection with heaven.

Praise be to God for speaking to Bret and to organize this retreat. I had an entire weekend filled with association with the most loving and Christ like people I have ever known. You all give me greater desire to rise up and become more like Christ, so I can be with you all in Zion.

Thank you Tim for your comments and for providing a forum for us to leave our thoughts and feelings about the retreat. I appreciate your blog so much.

I was commenting to my husband Adrian yesterday that I am so glad that we brought our children to the retreat. It was so good for them to realize that there are other children in this movement besides our good friends in Boise. They experienced the talks, the love, the unity, the testimonies, the sacrament, and a group of believers getting together to come to Christ and praise the Lord. There is something about meeting together that is powerful. I am so pleased they were part of it.
There were many beautiful souls in attendance. I’m so glad to have met and associated with you. May God be with us til we meet again!

http://latterdaycommentary.com/2015/05/ ... /#comments

If this poster is telling the truth, and Denver isn't a prophet, why would God allow these people to be so deceived? Once again, God allows Satan to tempt everyone. Their lack of faith causes them to believe that the whisperings of Satan are testimonies of the Holy Ghost. They are like the children of Israel who built the golden calf while Moses was up on the mountain. These people have been blinded and have wandered off into forbidden paths.

D&C 84:35-38

35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him

KMCopeland wrote:

Tony wrote: When David Whitmer went against the prophet and the Church, he went against God. Anyone who goes against the prophet and the Church goes against God. Satan has told them to go against the prophet and the Church because Satan knows that it means going against God.

Satan's victims fail to realize his ploy because they think the Holy Ghost is telling them to go against the Church, or stop paying their tithing, or violate the Word of Wisdom, or telling them to do anything else that will keep them out of the Celestial Kingdom.

We receive direction from Jesus Christ's servants. When we go in a different direction, the end thereof is eternal damnation. Those who travel in a different direction must speedily repent and return to the correct path or they will be found at the left hand of God.

This is a very rigid view. You're fully entitled to it, and I respect it. I wouldn't argue with you about it anyplace but in an online forum. So here we go.

You're not allowing for the possibility that a prophet could err. That possibility exists. It has happened. So you could be following a prophet, but going against God.

You probably feel safe in saying, on judgement day, something like "it wasn't my fault because I was following the prophet." I think God has been very clear about this. You are responsible for proving the righteousness of the directives given you by the prophet before you follow them. You will be responsible in the next life for that too.

The overall righteousness of the brethren means that you're probably pretty safe in substituting your relationship with them for your relationship with God. Me, I like a little better odds than "probably."

Tony wrote:

KMCopeland wrote:

Tony wrote: When David Whitmer went against the prophet and the Church, he went against God. Anyone who goes against the prophet and the Church goes against God. Satan has told them to go against the prophet and the Church because Satan knows that it means going against God.

Satan's victims fail to realize his ploy because they think the Holy Ghost is telling them to go against the Church, or stop paying their tithing, or violate the Word of Wisdom, or telling them to do anything else that will keep them out of the Celestial Kingdom.

We receive direction from Jesus Christ's servants. When we go in a different direction, the end thereof is eternal damnation. Those who travel in a different direction must speedily repent and return to the correct path or they will be found at the left hand of God.

This is a very rigid view. You're fully entitled to it, and I respect it. I wouldn't argue with you about it anyplace but in an online forum. So here we go.

You're not allowing for the possibility that a prophet could err. That possibility exists. It has happened. So you could be following a prophet, but going against God.

You probably feel safe in saying, on judgement day, something like "it wasn't my fault because I was following the prophet." I think God has been very clear about this. You are responsible for proving the righteousness of the directives given you by the prophet before you follow them. You will be responsible in the next life for that too.

The overall righteousness of the brethren means that you're probably pretty safe in substituting your relationship with them for your relationship with God. Me, I like a little better odds than "probably."

Those who will receive celestial glory will follow the prophet because the prophet is surely being led by Jesus Christ.

The path marked by the Savior is the only way to eternal life. His law has gone forth from Zion by way of His appointed servants.

You can choose to follow in a different path because you think your gift of discernment is better than God's chosen and anointed prophet. As for me, I will follow the path that the Lord has marked.

As for my relationship with God. I speak to him every day, and I listen to him every day. I also read his word daily. I glorify his name, and I go to his house as often as possible to do his work. I am one of his servants.