Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

[BrotherOfMahonri]

Food for thought. D&C 84:54-57 says this:

"And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation. And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—"

So what were those former commandments? We need to learn about them and then DO according to that which was written. In other words, the commandments in the Book of Mormon still apply where they have not been explicitly rescinded. It would make sense for God to have a book written for us today and it actually apply to us now instead of contradicting new commandments. So with that, here's a former commandment:

Jacob 2:27,34: "Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;...And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done."

And in the same sermon (Jacob 3:5): "Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father—that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them."

It was not a suggestion or a policy, it was a commandment. There is no record of this commandment in the Book of Mormon save for Jacob's words, but I'll bet it was spelled out in the Book of Lehi that was unfortunately lost to us. This commandment was never rescinded and God never commanded it for any reason in history except for one place in time allegedly. Here is Brian and Linda Hales, authors of "Joseph Smith's Polygamy" making an astouning claim:

"Do we know that polygamy will ever be commanded again? In the 6000 years of religious history, the only adherents to be commanded were the Latter-day Saints between 1852 and 1890. Upon what basis does anyone assert that it will be commanded again?" Brian and Linda Hales, http://blog.fairmormon.org/wp-content/u ... fusion.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

D&C 84 was written in 1832, before any polygamy was going on. President Benson said we are still under condemnation, maybe it is because we still haven't paid attention to the Book of Mormon in this respect. I know, some might say, "Oh well polygamy isn't that important of a thing that God would hold people under condemnation."

Oh really? The Lord said "not only to SAY but to DO according to that which I have written [in the Book of Mormon]" and apparently the commandment to have only one wife (that the Lamanites were keeping) was the SOLE thing keeping them from destruction. I shared Jacob 3:5 above, here's the next verse:

"And now, this commandment they observe to keep; wherefore, because of this observance, in keeping this commandment, the Lord God will not destroy them, but will be merciful unto them; and one day they shall become a blessed people."

The word "commandment" is mentioned FOUR times in Jacob's sermon in relation to having one wife only. D&C 84 admonishes the modern church to "remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—"

This seems pretty clear to me, but that's my contribution to the discussion. The good news is that the modern church has mostly DONE according to the Book of Mormon commandment to have one wife but we still SAY a lot about it and support it verbally because we have to have perfect prophets. People make mistakes, even prophets. I don't know if they did or not, there's so much heresay and contradictions in the history that it is such a mess.

But what I've presented here seems to indicate that having only one wife is pretty darn important. Viewing church history through this lens explains a lot. It could explain Joseph's death, why the Lord didn't stand by and defend the Saints from getting driven and scattered and why the Church suffered so many difficulties until it shed itself from polygamy.

We no longer "do", but we still "say." Maybe we still need to completely purge ourself from this practice in order to truly "become a blessed people."

Beautifully put. Thanks for this. My OP is just that, what the Spirit has told me powerfully as I've pondered this out for some time.

The Church needs the added measures (plural) of blessings for stripping both the unbelief because of the confusion of polygamy and speaking against one of the Lord's truly anointed Joseph Smith by calling Good Evil and Evil Good with polygamy and assigning such to His name and testifying of it - that is a dangerous place to be, even ignorantly.

[BrotherOfMahonri]

I don't doubt LDS can be and many are passive aggressive. But in this case, based on written posts, Jared would the religious "nutter" .
It can go both ways. LDS don't have the rights to passive aggressiveness or judging.
My sister left the church and the family at the same time. None of us judged her, tho my other sister tried to help her see where she was headed. But even she was inactive for a time so she spoke more out of someone having been in her shoes. In fact, out of my six living siblings, only myself and one other brother have never been inactive. Of my parents, both RM's, my Dad left the church when I was in 5th grade. He and I haven't ever even really discussed his leaving the church. He doesn't judge me, I don't judge him. He supports me in my life, I support him in his. In my familys case, my sister is using projection to justify her choice. Nobody gave her a bad time for leaving the church, she gave us a bad time for being members of the church and having the morals we have.
In most cases that I'm familiar with, it's the person leaving the church who judges their family.
Projection happens. Not always but probably in a majority of cases. In fact, talking with an old friend not too long ago, he related how his brother (whom I know) left the family. He is gay, it's been known for decades. This was nothing new. His family didn't judge him, they kept in touch, had dinners, get together etc. life went on as it always had. Then the brother started being anti Mormon. Any time together was always marred by his negativity towards the church. Finally the Mom asked him to stop it. Then guess what?? He claimed his Mormon family rejected him because he was gay. Totally not what happened. But if he were to post on this site, I can guarantee you'd all be sympathizing with him claiming what an intolerant unchristlike family he had. Remember how so many here threw that Eliason guys wife under the bus for kicking him out of the house? Turned out he was the pig.

Shadow,
I think you have a pretty balanced perspective by realizing nuttiness is found inside and outside the church. Nuttiness known no limits.
And I've come across some people who think in terms of all-or-nothing (as church teaches), so when they stumble on faults of the church, they discard it all. And some hang on to anger as if it gives them a sense of rightiousness - when really they are continuing the cult-like mentality of "you must think like us to be acceptable" - just a different tribe.

It's not easy to take the narrow way - you get spit on from either sides, especially if you tend to speak bluntly as I do sometimes.
From anti-mormon liberals I've been harassed even personally threatened for defending children killed in abortion and defending traditional marriage.
From loyal mormon cult members, I've been hurt even more from close family ganging up on me, even my spouse initiating it - as if it is MY problem that the church finances are corrupt.
People would rather shoot the messenger than own up to being mistaken and correcting their ways.

In a way, church makes it easy to have connection - to unify people in group thought. But in a way, they make it hell when one person moves on belief-wise. Often all involved are under the evil inpression that to be worthy and counted in the "in crowd" in the church - all must unquestioningly think alike. So when one doesn't think alike, there is the false assumption they must part ways. Sad - especially when families are torn apart and a lot of suffering happens - all for false assumptions.

From a particular perspective, all religion could be considered symbolic parable/story - like Star Wars. How silly to break up relationships because one prefers a different story!

Lives up to the username again. Thank you for inspired insights above!

I am left without energy or words to describe the false assumptions, judgements, and erroneous accusations towards me by family, here and else where - spitting from both sides as thinker just beautifully worded. It is a road ugly as hell to travel on, even very narrow, and the fact that I am back here again on this LDSFF publich whipping pole (for the most part) is due to the Lord's love for all of us, and he prompts me to come here, albeit I'm not perfect in my message and I want nothing from this but to do what the spirit prompts me to do and to truly help others be FREE, for truth SHALL set you free, I now have learned to DO as the spirit tells me to do, despite the hell that comes from both sides, often more weightier from the TBM side and family but also has been equally hellish from those who are establishing what DS teaches, which the Spirit has lead me personally away from so far (speaking of acting on what DS invites us to consider, not the truths he has taught in some of his works).

I am left to trust the Lord is going to give to each of us what we want most, such is agency - in His work with beckoning each of us to him. There is a straight and narrow pathway He warns us of - and few there be that find it. i feel in my heart of hearts, God will NOT allow any of us equal rights to future Godhood (endless posterity) unless we prove to have heeded his spirit over all else - otherwise, what else is the point of all this if we all get a few stripes on the back for our errors in regards to polygamy and otherwise, and we all are saved in the highest degree possible?

No, I don't think God will judge us for the things we do not have (like the people who know not the law or of Christ in this life, or little children, etc.) but that is the point. Some are saying, what does it matter, this polygamy thing anyways if it was wrong or right? It matters greatly, and each of us will receive what we wanted most or we might say we won't receive what we wanted least, and in the next life I believe we will have to catch up with agency in those matters we did not find the absolutely truth we are promised we can know of as clear as daylight and dark night if we seek it diligently of the Lord.

[BrotherOfMahonri]

I am grateful for these posts, from both sides - what an experience!
To sum up what I was indeed prompted to post, maybe for my own sake per the Lord's infinite wisdom...

As for me and my house, we believe we need to know and not sit on the fence and wait in these matters, and so far, in our journey the Lord confirms such seeking diligently after the truth and knowledge of these things, and every time the truth comes to us clearly on a matter like this, it is not by having read scholarly works, (although that is part of the process) adhering to the accepted norm when confusion is apparent, but by the process of what I have come to know as common sense prophecy by the workings of the Holy Ghost, something I've had through my life (where I know something years before an "apostle" or "prophet" shares it in GC as an example or my mission president before he ever states it, or something in society before it ever comes about) that I am now realizing is the spirit of prophecy, something i know is available to all of us who desire and live for it.

I also now know that such a gift we can all attain to is weakened when we fear man over what God is giving you through his spirit, be it by fear of man's commands or the accepted traditions of our fathers - even if it goes against the grain and will bring upon you persecution and hell from any side - if you do not declare it when the spirit is telling you plainly to do so (sometimes he constrains not to) then the gift is lessened, and it is painful when such happens. It will require some faith and some trial and error, but in the end faith will move you forward with this gift that I believe all of us can have, which is to prophesy by the workings of the spirit of things to come - a gift we desperately need NOW in our lifetime, which spirit of prophecy has proven to be in my life, a common sense over all intellectual debate, philosophy and scholarly work (where truth can be found but never proven entirely but by faith), such that a child can declare it if needs be.

I get that I claim to know something others don't know, and I am now seeing how family and others (TBM or otherwise) hate, despise, dislike, or misunderstand me for it, as how dare I ever think to be worthy to have God glance his eye to me and give to me the spirit of prophecy per my heart's motives, desires, diligence in his restored Gospel and living it and wanting it written upon the walls of my heart, and the love only Christ can give one towards their fellow man (and I now see my family and many here TBM or otherwise have done just that, how dare you Jared! Damn you to hell for it!)

I agree that I would hate myself too, and possibly be spitting at me in the face - if I was not in my shoes, and it is incomprehensible even to me years back, but now is no longer that way, and praise God and give him all Glory for it - it is absolutely comforting despite the spitting and hell, as no other influence can give me such assurance and hope and enlightenment, confidence enough to declare things boldly, not for any vain glory but the Glory of God and his truths he Does desire we all attain to, and to the call of repentance to our fellow mankind, and God's purpose and glory.

An invite to consider yourself a potential recipient of prophecy, just as Lehi was lead to prophesy, Nephi, and many others ALL OF US CAN ATTAIN TO SUCH, and I am a nobody living proof now, and if you know a little about my history on this LDSFF, you can see my journey learning this, and now I will prayerfully (asking God to humble me and chasten me always) but boldly prophecy as the spirit works such prophecy in my heart, and I cannot wait until others begin to feel what I now feel, see what I now see, surpass what I am capable of doing in the Lord, and experience what i have experienced now that the Lord has given me enough line upon line where the layers now have built a beautiful vision of what it is like to have the spirit of prophecy, and what an irony to myself and maybe all of you TBMs, that I am no longer a member of the church, but I am a member of the church of Christ, and he whose right it is to declare his own members has let me know I am - and I prophecy that I will be back in His church if you will - better prepared of the Lord, which will not be exactly the LDS church you and I see today, but a future church cleansed of some hypocrisy, but mostly cleansed in the sense of TRUTH within its members by faith and the pattern to attain to truth being opened to many more will begin to abound, and our sons and daughters (of which I am one) will prophesy, and dreams and visions will increase, and I see even DS and others like him will be back fully, as the church I will once again be a happy member of will be aided and supported again by the man who has the keys and has the right to lead it in our dispensation and has been working to find branches willing to become worthy and capable to get us back to a fullness, which this man Joseph died attempting to restore.

This future state of the church will ultimately be without the need of babylonian money, economy, or corporate status, and I prophesy it will not be long before we see things align up in our world to facilitate such changes, and as Joseph declared the misery of many souls in his prophecy of the war that was to come (D&C 87) upon the inhabitants of the newly founded nation I prophesy in the name of the Lord that things are coming fast and many are already at hand, just covered up by false assurances, things even this year - that will help facilitate even necessarily facilitate such changes and we will need to have taken the Holy Spirit as our guide so as to not be deceived over all counsel of man, as man will lead us, no matter how good or inspired, into dark and dreary wildernesses from which only God can delivery us, if such men are not working and declaring their workings in the name of the Lord and in the spirit of prophesy - a pattern God has established to help us be not deceived, a pattern that is throughout scripture.

Such is my faith, and when my faith leads to sweet fruits, the spirit beckons me to share them with my fellow man despite hell or high water. Come to attain the spirit of prophecy in your life, come oh come and put away anything that distracts you from attaining to such, and take faith that God will indeed pay attention to each of us personally as we exercise faith in him alone.

I give you my witness. God desires we all prophesy and become like unto Lehi, Nephi, Mormon, and Moroni, even like unto Moses, and I declare that satan has been masterfully NUMBING such knowledge we can attain to in part, even a great part, through the error of polygamy in the church, the blasphemy of testifying Joseph practiced it - which I prophesy in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ will change (polygamy and Joseph) in what we know as the restored church and gospel of Jesus Christ and will require many to introspect their faith and what it is built upon.

Can anyone read this and feel not to rejoice? Oh that I were an angel like unto our fellow saints in Christ of old times, and could declare what I now am being given to understand, you and I can and shall prophecy! Praise God that he is working his own strange act such that in my lifetime we will begin to build the city Joseph saw in vision, and will build such without our current babylonian economy! I am a nobody, a nobody that indeed, has and can attain to the spirit of prophesy which gives me the common sense of my brother, the Holy Ghost in my life - a mystery that is beautiful beyond words to express, common sense of the Holy Spirit - who would have thunk it possible?!

I am confident that many others already have this spirit of prophesy but know it not (and it is Satan's plan to do all possible to keep such from ever knowing), as such has been my experience for decades now. It has been with me, and I am now lead to believe (and will study this out) it is with some of the brethren, but not all, and is not uniquely for them whatsoever, but all can attain to such, even the spirit of prophesy, and I declare as Moses did of old, I would to God all of us were prophets and the LORD would put his spirit upon them, that all would prophesy!

[BrotherOfMahonri]

...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy

Revelation 19:10

Those who have the spirit of prophecy within them will be the ones who will know and understand the signs of the times:

'But the Latterday Saints are not in darkness; they are the children of light, although many of us will actually be asleep. We shall have to wake up and trim our lamps, or we shall not be prepared to enter in; for we shall all slumber and sleep in that day, and some will have gone to sleep from which they will not awake until they awake up in darkess without any oil in their lamps. But, as a general thing, the Saints will understand the signs of the times, if they do lie down and get to sleep. Others have their eyes closed upon the prophecies of the ancient Prophets; and not only that but they are void of the spirit of prophecy themselves.

When a man has this, though he may appeal to ancient prophets to get understanding on some subjects he does not clearly understand, yet, as he has the spirit of prophecy in himself, he will not be in darkness; he will have a knowlledge of the signs of the times; he will have a knowldege of the house of Israel, and of Zion, of the ten tribes, and of many things and purposes and events that are to take place on the earth; and he will see coming events, and can say such an event will take place, and after that another, and then another; and after that the trumpet shall sound, and after that certain things will take place and then another trupmp shall sound &c, &c; and he will have his eye fixed on the signs of the times, and that day will not overtake him unawares.'"

Orson Pratt ( http://journalofdiscourses.com/7/29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

[shadow]

Jared, consider yourself as the "spitter". Ponder on that true nugget for a while. This whole thread YOU started is a big loogey. Most are.

[Thinker]

Shadow,
I think you have a pretty balanced perspective by realizing nuttiness is found inside and outside the church. Nuttiness known no limits.
And I've come across some people who think in terms of all-or-nothing (as church teaches), so when they stumble on faults of the church, they discard it all. And some hang on to anger as if it gives them a sense of rightiousness - when really they are continuing the cult-like mentality of "you must think like us to be acceptable" - just a different tribe.

It's not easy to take the narrow way - you get spit on from either sides, especially if you tend to speak bluntly as I do sometimes.
From anti-mormon liberals I've been harassed even personally threatened for defending children killed in abortion and defending traditional marriage.
From loyal mormon cult members, I've been hurt even more from close family ganging up on me, even my spouse initiating it - as if it is MY problem that the church finances are corrupt.
People would rather shoot the messenger than own up to being mistaken and correcting their ways.

In a way, church makes it easy to have connection - to unify people in group thought. But in a way, they make it hell when one person moves on belief-wise. Often all involved are under the evil inpression that to be worthy and counted in the "in crowd" in the church - all must unquestioningly think alike. So when one doesn't think alike, there is the false assumption they must part ways. Sad - especially when families are torn apart and a lot of suffering happens - all for false assumptions.

From a particular perspective, all religion could be considered symbolic parable/story - like Star Wars. How silly to break up relationships because one prefers a different story!

Lives up to the username again. Thank you for inspired insights above!

I am left without energy or words to describe the false assumptions, judgements, and erroneous accusations towards me by family, here and else where - spitting from both sides as thinker just beautifully worded. It is a road ugly as hell to travel on, even very narrow, and the fact that I am back here again on this LDSFF publich whipping pole (for the most part) is due to the Lord's love for all of us, and he prompts me to come here, albeit I'm not perfect in my message and I want nothing from this but to do what the spirit prompts me to do and to truly help others be FREE, for truth SHALL set you free, I now have learned to DO as the spirit tells me to do, despite the hell that comes from both sides, often more weightier from the TBM side and family but also has been equally hellish from those who are establishing what DS teaches, which the Spirit has lead me personally away from so far (speaking of acting on what DS invites us to consider, not the truths he has taught in some of his works).

I am left to trust the Lord is going to give to each of us what we want most, such is agency - in His work with beckoning each of us to him. There is a straight and narrow pathway He warns us of - and few there be that find it. i feel in my heart of hearts, God will NOT allow any of us equal rights to future Godhood (endless posterity) unless we prove to have heeded his spirit over all else - otherwise, what else is the point of all this if we all get a few stripes on the back for our errors in regards to polygamy and otherwise, and we all are saved in the highest degree possible?

No, I don't think God will judge us for the things we do not have (like the people who know not the law or of Christ in this life, or little children, etc.) but that is the point. Some are saying, what does it matter, this polygamy thing anyways if it was wrong or right? It matters greatly, and each of us will receive what we wanted most or we might say we won't receive what we wanted least, and in the next life I believe we will have to catch up with agency in those matters we did not find the absolutely truth we are promised we can know of as clear as daylight and dark night if we seek it diligently of the Lord.

Hi BrotherOfMahonri,
Thank you for your kindness and I admire your determination to do what you think is right, despite opposition.
I think we agree in some ways, but I'd suggest you don't jump to some conclusions.
IE: Polygamy obviously happened. There is ample proof - even in my ancestry.
Joseph Smith was not a God - not close to perfect - even if he was inspired and proved to be a genuine prophet in many ways - having a vision and leading people to a better way.

Polygamy is not the ideal situation for children to be raised by a mother and father, for several reasons.
Still, it has happened in the past - and even if it was bad - some good has come out of it.
And I would not see it as the most important battle - though that's my personal belief.
We each are called (spiritually) to certain battles of principle - and this may be yours.
Yet, I'd suggest you don't deny polygamy from the past - but just focus on now - and why it is not the best way for families and society.

For most of my life, I jumped to the conclusion that when I felt the spirit about something, whatever way I interpreted that intuitive FEELING, was what the spirit was telling me. When really, the details were up to me in interpreting it. Sometimes I interpreted it based on God - but sometimes I interpreted it based on fear or desire. Things of the spirit are so subtle - and often our ego/pride gets in the way. Yet, we can't just be spiritual beings in this life - without dying. We have to learn to manage both natures - physical and spiritual.

[Fiannan]

How many scriptures in the Bible absolutely condemn the following:

* Divorce

* Lesbians

* Polygamy

?????

How many scriptures say that family limitation is a positive thing?

[Thinker]

Jared, consider yourself as the "spitter". Ponder on that true nugget for a while. This whole thread YOU started is a big loogey. Most are.

It is ad hominem attack (logical fallacy) to call names.
It's more reasonable to explain exactly why you think something is "a big loogey."
Of course it's easier to dismiss it with a label of nonsense, but what does that accomplish?

If we each were honest, and were actively progressing, we'd REGULARLY realize we were "big loogeys" - fooled and even preaching foolishness.
There's a balance between assertive active faith and humbly acknowledge, as Moses and Socrates did, that we don't know much.
Live and learn!

[Thinker]

How many scriptures in the Bible absolutely condemn the following:
* Divorce
* Lesbians
* Polygamy
?????
How many scriptures say that family limitation is a positive thing?

And how important is it to not have other gods before God?
Yet, you put up writings from imperfect people who lived during times of blood letting and human sacrifice, as if they are gods.

Common sense, Fiannan - don't underestimate it, even if it is not as common as ideal!
Who is present at conception?
2 women and 1 man? Nope.
1 woman and 1 man - that is how we were created.

We're discussing polygamy - implying that basically it is ok with all involved that a man has affairs on the others - even legally ok.
From a legal perspective, consider the founding documents of this country...
The US Declaration of Independence reads,
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Seems pretty obvious that we all have such rights from CREATION/conception - and that is by ONE man and ONE woman.

[SmallFarm]

"2 women and 1 man? Nope.
1 woman and 1 man - that is how we were created."
Yes in every animal who makes offspring through sexual reproduction it is one male and one female.
And so we see everywhere in the world, all animals live in one male/ one female families.... oh wait...

[Tony]

...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 19:10

Those who have the spirit of prophecy within them will be the ones who will know and understand the signs of the times:

Satan has convinced apostates that they actually have the testimony of Jesus and have been listening to the Spirit. Some are still in the Church; some have left the Church; and some have been excommunicated.

Faithful and true members, who are living the gospel and giving heed to Jesus Christ's chosen and anointed servants, will see and understand the signs of the times.

[Col. Flagg]

Question... if the Lord condones polygamy, then why even have the law of chastity? Why even have the Proclamation to the World on the family unit? Why are there dozens upon dozens of scriptures where the Lord condemns polygamy as abominable? How can a practice be abominable in the sight of God, but OK when he wants to raise up 'seed'? Why did God seal Adam to only one woman? Why did Joseph Smith explode in an outrage when accused of polygamy in a court of law, swearing that he had only one wife and that he could prove his accusers as perjurers? If he really did practice polygamy, this would make him a liar and that would mean the man the Lord chose to restore the gospel through was a liar and that God did not know Joseph's heart, right? Inquiring minds wanna know.

[Thinker]

"2 women and 1 man? Nope.
1 woman and 1 man - that is how we were created."
Yes in every animal who makes offspring through sexual reproduction it is one male and one female.
And so we see everywhere in the world, all animals live in one male/ one female families.... oh wait...

Oh, wait... WE'RE NOT ANIMALS. ;)

You know you're getting desperate for an argument when you start trying to justify behavior by saying, "but animals do it!" /:)
Animals sometimes eat their young and hump anything that moves - so does that mean people should?

[Fiannan]

That is true. One god made animals and another one made humans. The laws of nature do not apply to people in the least. Animals have no spirit from God (the one who made us) at all.

[Fiannan]

Question... if the Lord condones polygamy, then why even have the law of chastity? Why even have the Proclamation to the World on the family unit? Why are there dozens upon dozens of scriptures where the Lord condemns polygamy as abominable? How can a practice be abominable in the sight of God, but OK when he wants to raise up 'seed'? Why did God seal Adam to only one woman? Why did Joseph Smith explode in an outrage when accused of polygamy in a court of law, swearing that he had only one wife and that he could prove his accusers as perjurers? If he really did practice polygamy, this would make him a liar and that would mean the man the Lord chose to restore the gospel through was a liar and that God did not know Joseph's heart, right? Inquiring minds wanna know.

You have a lot of questions. Here are some more:

How does chastity exclude polygamy?

Where are those dozens of scriptures that condemn polygamy? Martin Luther said there were none in the Bible.

Can's sex be abominable if not practiced outside certain bounds?

Adam and one woman...he was sealed to his sister then, right? Shall we marry our sisters? My sister looked like Audrey Hepburn when she was young but I would not have wanted to marry her.

No idea what Joseph's intentions or circumstances where in regards to your statement. I would want context beyond what you have supplied. On a related note, if God indeed said polygamy was a sin why did He make provisions in the Mosaic Law that required polygamy in certain situations? Why did He bless David with six wives initially? Is God an accomplice in sin? I think not but I await your answer.

[ajax]

It seems more than likely that man ascribes to God that which God had nothing to do with. Enter the OT as exhibit A.

[shadow]

It seems more than likely that man ascribes to God that which God had nothing to do with. Enter the OT as exhibit A.

Like when God threw down that empty coke bottle in Africa. That was crazy. I watched the documentary.

[marc]

Satan has convinced apostates that they actually have the testimony of Jesus and have been listening to the Spirit. Some are still in the Church; some have left the Church; and some have been excommunicated.

Faithful and true members, who are living the gospel and giving heed to Jesus Christ's chosen and anointed servants, will see and understand the signs of the times.

Tony:

-Are you asserting that every person who has ever received or has ever claimed to receive the testimony of Jesus is an apostate, having been deceived by Satan?
-Are you claiming that only "faithful and true members, (as you seem to define as those) who are living the gospel and giving heed to Jesus Christ's chosen and anointed servants" do not receive the testimony of Jesus?
-In your own words, what is the testimony of Jesus?

[jbalm]

Question... if the Lord condones polygamy, then why even have the law of chastity? Why even have the Proclamation to the World on the family unit? Why are there dozens upon dozens of scriptures where the Lord condemns polygamy as abominable? How can a practice be abominable in the sight of God, but OK when he wants to raise up 'seed'? Why did God seal Adam to only one woman? Why did Joseph Smith explode in an outrage when accused of polygamy in a court of law, swearing that he had only one wife and that he could prove his accusers as perjurers? If he really did practice polygamy, this would make him a liar and that would mean the man the Lord chose to restore the gospel through was a liar and that God did not know Joseph's heart, right? Inquiring minds wanna know.

You have a lot of questions. Here are some more: I know these aren't directed to me, but...

How does chastity exclude polygamy? Can't legally be married to more than one spouse.

Where are those dozens of scriptures that condemn polygamy? Martin Luther said there were none in the Bible. Of course, there's Jacob 2. However, this is actually an interesting question. I'd also like to know where the scriptures are that condemn masturbation, pornography, abortion, pedophilia, and securities fraud.

Can's sex be abominable if not practiced outside certain bounds? Of course. Don't tell me that a guy as obsessed with sex as you doesn't realize that it can be absolutely abominable. Google it, for sh!t's sake. Turn off the safe search if you want to see the really abominable stuff. Google up "lemon party," if you doubt me.

Adam and one woman...he was sealed to his sister then, right? They were sealed? Where does it say that? Shall we marry our sisters? My sister looked like Audrey Hepburn when she was young but I would not have wanted to marry her. But if you did want to, I imagine you'd find a justification for it. In any event, brothers doing it with their sisters is completely effed up. Refer to your question about whether or not sex can be abominable, above.


No idea what Joseph's intentions or circumstances where in regards to your statement. I would want context beyond what you have supplied. On a related note, if God indeed said polygamy was a sin why did He make provisions in the Mosaic Law that required polygamy in certain situations? Why did He bless David with six wives initially? Is God an accomplice in sin? I think not but I await your answer. It's always struck me as odd that you can rely on your scientific justifications for promiscuity, and simultaneously purport to believe in a literal OT. Science and the OT are not friends. Do you give the OT any credence with regard to any topics other than sexual ones? Do you believe donkeys can talk? Do you believe there's a dome over the earth that keeps the water out (a la "the firmament")" Do you believe that a ewe will bear a striped lamb if she happens to be looking at a striped stick while a ram sticks it to her?

If the OT is your measuring stick, then anything goes, I guess. Do the wild thing with anyone or anything you want, including your own parents, like Lott's daughters did.

[SmallFarm]

"2 women and 1 man? Nope.
1 woman and 1 man - that is how we were created."
Yes in every animal who makes offspring through sexual reproduction it is one male and one female.
And so we see everywhere in the world, all animals live in one male/ one female families.... oh wait...

Oh, wait... WE'RE NOT ANIMALS. ;)

You know you're getting desperate for an argument when you start trying to justify behavior by saying, "but animals do it!" /:)
Animals sometimes eat their young and hump anything that moves - so does that mean people should?

I was just showing you the hole in your logic about the thing. I think you're letting you bias cloud your thinking.

[A Random Phrase]

Question: What is the test of mortality?

And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

Sounds right. But Daymon Smith would disagree with who the "we" are (but I disagree with him. I also think the commandments are those given to us, personally, by God).

[A Random Phrase]

Oh well, not as weird as the reason Kellogg developed his famous cereal.

So, Kellogg was asexual?

He personally abstained from it [the big M], and never consummated his marriage .... He and his wife kept separate bedrooms and adopted all of their children.
Link, which was given above, in an earlier post.

It gets weirder and weirder.

he cataloged 39 different symptoms of a person plagued by masturbation, including general infirmity, defective development, mood swings, fickleness, bashfulness, boldness, bad posture, stiff joints, fondness for spicy foods, acne, palpitations, and epilepsy.

Both bashfulness and boldness are caused by this? Bad posture? All native Mexicans, Cajuns, and other cultures that eat spicy foods? All teenagers (acne), except for the exceptionally rare one? Any normal woman and girl in childbearing years who has mood swings?

Heck, by Kellogg's reckoning, 95% of the planet did/does this.

Edited to change the asexual link to something informative rather than to a search result.

[Ribble]

For most of my life, I jumped to the conclusion that when I felt the spirit about something, whatever way I interpreted that intuitive FEELING, was what the spirit was telling me. When really, the details were up to me in interpreting it. Sometimes I interpreted it based on God - but sometimes I interpreted it based on fear or desire. Things of the spirit are so subtle - and often our ego/pride gets in the way. Yet, we can't just be spiritual beings in this life - without dying. We have to learn to manage both natures - physical and spiritual.

Thinker, you have great insights.

I agree, it can be incredibly difficult to distinguish spiritual promptings from conscious/unconscious desires. The mixture of the flesh and spirit makes it hard to hone in on what and where the message is coming from. We see ample evidence on this site alone everyday. One person receiving a confirmation on one subject only to have another saying the spirit is telling him the complete opposite. I have also read that it is fairly common when an apostle's wife dies, there is a line of women claiming they received revelation telling them that they will be the apostles next wife.

It does happen, the Spirit witnessing something powerfully and obviously…but this is more often the exception rather than the rule.

[Fiannan]

Can't legally be married to more than one spouse.

There is a consensus between legislators and those who champion the law of chastity?

Of course, there's Jacob 2. However, this is actually an interesting question. I'd also like to know where the scriptures are that condemn masturbation, pornography, abortion, pedophilia, and securities fraud.

No scriptures condemn masturbation. As for pornography, the scriptures say a person should not commit fornication or adultery. How does one produce a porn movie without that being a job requirement? As for abortion, it is shedding innocent blood. Securities? Well, ever hear of "thou shalt not steal?" As for pedophilia, there are provisions against rape in the Old Testament.


The rest of your comments were just weird so I won't bother to address them.

[Thinker]

For most of my life, I jumped to the conclusion that when I felt the spirit about something, whatever way I interpreted that intuitive FEELING, was what the spirit was telling me. When really, the details were up to me in interpreting it. Sometimes I interpreted it based on God - but sometimes I interpreted it based on fear or desire. Things of the spirit are so subtle - and often our ego/pride gets in the way. Yet, we can't just be spiritual beings in this life - without dying. We have to learn to manage both natures - physical and spiritual.

Thinker, you have great insights.

I agree, it can be incredibly difficult to distinguish spiritual promptings from conscious/unconscious desires. The mixture of the flesh and spirit makes it hard to hone in on what and where the message is coming from. We see ample evidence on this site alone everyday. One person receiving a confirmation on one subject only to have another saying the spirit is telling him the complete opposite. I have also read that it is fairly common when an apostle's wife dies, there is a line of women claiming they received revelation telling them that they will be the apostles next wife.

It does happen, the Spirit witnessing something powerfully and obviously…but this is more often the exception rather than the rule.

Thanks.
It's good to know your perspective too.
Someone said spiritual discernment and priesthood power is like martial arts - you gotta practice every day.

And that's funny about the next apostle's wife - maybe a new reality show?