Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
Locked
braingrunt
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2042

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by braingrunt »

jbalm wrote:
braingrunt wrote:I testify that Jacob 2:30 is indeed an exception clause. My analysis is elsewhere on this site, and is in direct opposition to the analysis BOM posted, and in my opinion goes at least as deep. But I feel it's not worth debating over anymore, not for me anyway.
When you say "I testify," what does that mean, exactly? Did God tell you that your interpretation is correct? Or do you just really, really believe you are correct?

Mormonspeak is frustrating sometimes.
I have not seen God or heard a voice. I mean simply that I studied it out in my mind and heart. Spent some time at it. Dumped some of my thoughts into the aforementioned link.

Discussed it with my English major wife.

Asked God and felt that it was right. That's it. So I'm just giving testimony of what I understand to be true.

User avatar
rewcox
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5873

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by rewcox »

jbalm wrote:
rewcox wrote:I don't think so.

Abraham actually practiced it, he is a God now.

D&C 132
28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.
Das es correcto.
Kind of a dubious source. Especially for this thread. It's like saying Scientology is true because L. Ron Hubbard says so.
This place is ripe for burning. These threads are terrible. I'm sorry for any new members looking for something uplifting.

User avatar
jbalm
The Third Comforter
Posts: 5348

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by jbalm »

You sure complain a lot.

User avatar
shadow
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10542
Location: St. George

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by shadow »

Another new and false doctrine thread. If you don't like what the church teaches (132) then just claim it's made up. Then demand more proof. Toss out the bible while you're at it.

Faith, interesting that it appears your brother ditched his siblings while he left the church. My sister did the same thing. She left the church in a big and bold way and now refuses to communicate with any of us except occasionally my mom. That was her demand. satan is laughing at how he's destroying families. That's the fruit thereof.

User avatar
inho
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3286
Location: in a galaxy far, far away

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by inho »

rewcox wrote:
jbalm wrote:
rewcox wrote:I don't think so.

Abraham actually practiced it, he is a God now.
Source for that please.
D&C 132
28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.
Das es correcto.
jbalm wrote: Kind of a dubious source. Especially for this thread. It's like saying Scientology is true because L. Ron Hubbard says so.
Well, we also have D&C 137, where Joseph saw Abraham hanging out with Father Adam in Celestial Kingdom. That goes hand in hand with D&C 132:29. Is there a reason why you question Abraham being a god now? Is it because he was polygamous (since that is the topic of this thread)?

User avatar
jbalm
The Third Comforter
Posts: 5348

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by jbalm »

No. I just find the D&C to be completely unconvincing. (Except for the part where you can tell if an angel is evil by trying to shake his hand...that part's totally true!)

User avatar
ajax
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7956
Location: Pf, Texas

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by ajax »

shadow wrote:Faith, interesting that it appears your brother ditched his siblings while he left the church. My sister did the same thing. She left the church in a big and bold way and now refuses to communicate with any of us except occasionally my mom. That was her demand. satan is laughing at how he's destroying families. That's the fruit thereof.
Maybe it's Jesus' fault (Luke 12:51-53)

Or maybe it's just the character flaws of all involved: sister feeling uncomfortable; nutter family religionists who make everybody feel like sh!t who aren't TBM, etc. Could be lots of dynamics. Some people who leave feel very very uncomfortable around these nutters who are always judging and are experts in passive aggression.

I haven't experienced such fruit. So it sounds like your family in particular has something to work on.

Wait, faith and BoM are siblings? So LDSFF unites!

User avatar
ajax
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7956
Location: Pf, Texas

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by ajax »

rewcox wrote:This place is ripe for burning. These threads are terrible. I'm sorry for any new members looking for something uplifting.
Why? It purports to be nothing more than a discussion forum.

I find that people with differing views can either discuss, or throw fits.

User avatar
Obrien
Up, up and away.
Posts: 4901

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by Obrien »

ajax wrote:
shadow wrote:Faith, interesting that it appears your brother ditched his siblings while he left the church. My sister did the same thing. She left the church in a big and bold way and now refuses to communicate with any of us except occasionally my mom. That was her demand. satan is laughing at how he's destroying families. That's the fruit thereof.
Maybe it's Jesus' fault (Luke 12:51-53)

Or maybe it's just the character flaws of all involved: sister feeling uncomfortable; nutter family religionists who make everybody feel like sh!t who aren't TBM, etc. Could be lots of dynamics. Some people who leave feel very very uncomfortable around these nutters who are always judging and are experts in passive aggression.

I haven't experienced such fruit. So it sounds like your family in particular has something to work on.

Wait, faith and BoM are siblings? So LDSFF unites!
So it would seem, ajax. I did not pick up that nuance yesterday while scanning those posts while on hold at work.

I have about 1/2 of my "shareable?" post finished - I got too sleepy to finish it last night. Perhaps I should save it for June 17...or at LEAST until June 1 (June being a new hometeaching month and all).

User avatar
BroJones
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7916
Location: Varies.
Contact:

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by BroJones »

Faith wrote:
durangout wrote:
Faith wrote:This subject had rocked my world, shaken my core, and caused me great sorrow.
How exactly?
I grew up only learning about Joseph & Emma's love story. For some reason it was never mentioned in all my learning at home, or at church, that Joseph had participated in plural marriage. I obviously wasn't studying the D&C.

I hadn't been married for very long before I finally realized it. There was a movie out called Emma Smith- My Story, and people were talking about all she went through.

For many years I was absolutely lost and wandering in deep pain and anger over Joseph having plural wives. I studied many accounts of journal entries written by some of his wives. ( these accounts my brother - brother of Mahonri- also the brother of me, and 5 more siblings. - he thinks they are made up accounts written by the hands of mob members and those out to destroy Joseph's good name---

Well I read these women 'a accounts and a warmth rushed over me and I wept. One of these women in particular would rather have died and was in the depths of hell over Joseph asking her hand in marriage. Her dreams of true love and finding her eternalate were dashed. She now was faced with a man who loved his Emma, and was married to others also. She was devistated and took months to respond. In each account Joseph never put on any pressure. In each account these women had sacred and amazing experiences where the veil of the eternities were lifted from their eyes, and they were shown the glory of entering into this Celestial practice of plural marriage- and they each came back to Joseph, filled with heavenly knowledge- and accepted his offer of eternal marriage.

Even though I had this experience where I was filled with joy and warmth that only the Spirit could offer--- I forced myself to shun it as the following months and years passed. I let the adversary tweak with my heart over the matter of polygamy . I convinced myself that I was worthless as a daughter of God, and that He women were of significant less value to Him. My view of the gospel, myself, marriage - was dismal.

But this was all Satan's lie. I can testify of that now. Polygamy can not fully be understood by the flawed mortal man & woman here. But our testimonies of faith and hope and answers concerning these things can bring us divine peace.
Thanks for sharing your very personal and moving experience with this matter, Faith.
I keep thinking of Eliza R. Snow Smith... she loved and was loved by Joseph. Joseph also deeply loved Emma. I personally believe this does not diminish Joseph's love for Emma.

braingrunt
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2042

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by braingrunt »

Some new testament thoughts on Abraham:

Luke 16
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

James 2:21
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Hebrews 11:17
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Galatians 3:6
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

James 2:23
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Luke 13:28
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Matthew 8:11
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.


Add in a few repetitions of these thoughts, a few references to "the God of Abraham", and several references to the "seed of Abraham". Make of them what you will but he sure seems to be in heaven to me.

BrotherOfMahonri
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1751

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by BrotherOfMahonri »

ajax wrote:
shadow wrote:Faith, interesting that it appears your brother ditched his siblings while he left the church. My sister did the same thing. She left the church in a big and bold way and now refuses to communicate with any of us except occasionally my mom. That was her demand. satan is laughing at how he's destroying families. That's the fruit thereof.
Maybe it's Jesus' fault (Luke 12:51-53)

Or maybe it's just the character flaws of all involved: sister feeling uncomfortable; nutter family religionists who make everybody feel like sh!t who aren't TBM, etc. Could be lots of dynamics. Some people who leave feel very very uncomfortable around these nutters who are always judging and are experts in passive aggression.

I haven't experienced such fruit. So it sounds like your family in particular has something to work on.

Wait, faith and BoM are siblings? So LDSFF unites!
Ajax - quit your job and become a counselor, you worded almost perfectly the martyr syndrome and compare oneself to others choices outside the TBM complex that no matter if one is present, speaks, or remains silent they offend for existing and having a differing opinion.

Passive aggression for decades is hard to bare with esp when it only compounds the more you repent for being you At the constant requests of others who don't like what you are or say, Repent for existing. Nothing you do seems to stop others from self judgement. It is a sure form of how we might feel when around a perfect Christ whose standards are beyond us all Where we might even complain he is judging us and not accepting us for who We are, when in reality we don't accept ourselves and are judging ourselves to the light of a being who liveS a higher standard than we do.

With some of my siblings now that my sister publicly cried martyr , neglected, rejected, disliked... Passive aggressiveness is an understatement.

Thank you for the wisdom in that short but well perceived statement. :ymapplause:

You loose either way when passive aggression is chronic.

Watch the video series I posted above, shadow and faith and an invite to stop assuming the worst (unbecoming of any of us) stop being martyrs and try the approach of love and comprehension, study passive aggression.
Last edited by BrotherOfMahonri on May 21st, 2015, 8:36 am, edited 3 times in total.

BrotherOfMahonri
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1751

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by BrotherOfMahonri »

shadow wrote:Another new and false doctrine thread. If you don't like what the church teaches (132) then just claim it's made up. Then demand more proof. Toss out the bible while you're at it.

Faith, interesting that it appears your brother ditched his siblings while he left the church. My sister did the same thing. She left the church in a big and bold way and now refuses to communicate with any of us except occasionally my mom. That was her demand. satan is laughing at how he's destroying families. That's the fruit thereof.
This seems like a typical knee jerk reaction without love, But a rash and shallow assumption.

No wonder family distances themselves from such loving siblings. Selfish is what this is. It has little to do with a lack of tolerance on out part Or love, but the constant judgement the adversary is good at whispering to all around us, "look at them, they think they are better than you" "They home school" "they don't have Barbies or watch Disney" "they are to good for us" "they are so self righteous" "they don't accept you for who you are, they judge you because of their standards" "They think their way is better" all heaped at us without so much as saying a word or for simply existing and doing as the Lord leads us to do as a family unit.

Exhausting spiritually and temporally, esp if one truly is child like in their loving concern for so many accusations against them, always repenting to show you do care (at the request of the aggressor) even when no repentance or apology was needed, only to find again and again it deepens the other party's assumed offences towards them and you are told to rep t for anything you say, do, or have become.

After experiencing such passive aggression, and finally realizing what it is, it is like all the suddenly being freed from a dark cave you thought you were in because you loved the people around you so much, only to realize that love was not accepted and won't ever be until you know thyself in Gods eyes, not the eyes of those comparing themsleve selves to you.

We don't fit the norm then all the sudden we are judge mental and all around us play Martyrs, emotionally manipulating us to feel we are t blame for all hurt, pains, relationship issues.

One day this will all be seen, and then comprehension will about and loving heartfelt repentance will follow with forgiveness, but for now it is an emotional vernal constant abuse at the hands of family and many TBMs.
Last edited by BrotherOfMahonri on May 21st, 2015, 8:48 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 11221
Location: England

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by Robin Hood »

BrotherOfMahonri wrote:The Holy Spirit has been upon me for some time as I have pondered, studied out, and prayed sincerely about this topic, and I now prophesy in the workings of the Holy Spirit in my heart and the common sense he has given me to understand truth by the Holy Spirit, even the blessing of the potential to know the truth of all things, that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy, and the LDS Church will renounce such historical untruths, false affidavits, etc. of him having ever established and practiced polygamy in the not too distant future, which will bring upon the church a blessing that has been withheld because of this unbelief.

The LDS Church will state that polygamy was never practiced by the Prophet, Seer and Revelator, Joseph Smith Jr., clearing the good name of the man who has done more for our salvation save the Savior himself, and showing to the world in effect, Satan has more power upon the hearts and minds of the people than we realize or give thought towards - as he has stuck his foot into the restoration and due to man's weakness has succeeded in promulgating the false history of Joseph's supposed polygamy.

Praise God that he reveals his truths to babes and to those who think not that they are learned, wise, and scholarly.
I don't know if you're right about the church ever coming out and stating this. However, in my view you are absolutely on the money when it comes your statement that Joseph was not a polygamist. I have known this for some time and I cringe when I hear him presented as such. That he was sealed to various people is clearly the case. But married to them? No.

User avatar
ajax
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7956
Location: Pf, Texas

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by ajax »

BroJones wrote:Thanks for sharing your very personal and moving experience with this matter, Faith. I don't see what's particularly moving about it. Was it that she came to the conclusion that polygamy was a Celestial principle? Seems like her initial instinct was correct, but allowed it to be massaged over by controlled narrative.
I keep thinking of Eliza R. Snow Smith... she loved and was loved by Joseph. Physically? How do you know? Or was Eliza R Snow Smith Young just defending the practices of the successors? Joseph also deeply loved Emma. I personally believe this does not diminish Joseph's love for Emma.

User avatar
caddis
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1196

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by caddis »

BrotherOfMahonri wrote:
shadow wrote:Another new and false doctrine thread. If you don't like what the church teaches (132) then just claim it's made up. Then demand more proof. Toss out the bible while you're at it.

Faith, interesting that it appears your brother ditched his siblings while he left the church. My sister did the same thing. She left the church in a big and bold way and now refuses to communicate with any of us except occasionally my mom. That was her demand. satan is laughing at how he's destroying families. That's the fruit thereof.
This seems like a typical knee jerk reaction without love, But a rash and shallow assumption.

No wonder family distances themselves from such loving siblings. Selfish is what this is. It has little to do with a lack of tolerance on out part Or love, but the constant judgement the adversary is good at whispering to all around us, "look at them, they think they are better than you" "They home school" "they don't have Barbies or watch Disney" "they are to good for us" "they are so self righteous" "they don't accept you for who you are, they judge you because of their standards" "They think their way is better" all heaped at us without so much as saying a word or for simply existing and doing as the Lord leads us to do as a family unit.

Exhausting spiritually and temporally, esp if one truly is child like in their loving concern for so many accusations against them, always repenting to show you do care (at the request of the aggressor) even when no repentance or apology was needed, only to find again and again it deepens the other party's assumed offences towards them and you are told to rep t for anything you say, do, or have become.

After experiencing such passive aggression, and finally realizing what it is, it is like all the suddenly being freed from a dark cave you thought you were in because you loved the people around you so much, only to realize that love was not accepted and won't ever be until you know thyself in Gods eyes, not the eyes of those comparing themsleve selves to you.

We don't fit the norm then all the sudden we are judge mental and all around us play Martyrs, emotionally manipulating us to feel we are t blame for all hurt, pains, relationship issues.

One day this will all be seen, and then comprehension will about and loving heartfelt repentance will follow with forgiveness, but for now it is an emotional vernal constant abuse at the hands of family and many TBMs.
BoM,

I can totally relate to your post except I was the TBM in the situation. I had a sister leave the church about 7 years ago. I held her decision to leave the church and her political persuasion against her. Then, one day last spring, out of the blue, the Lord completely changed my heart and mind. He showed me the error of my ways and I haven't been the same person since. Even my wife wonders at times what has happened to the "old me". I am no longer the TBM I once was. With the Lords help I began to recognize the false traditions that had been ingrained in me since my youth.

For the first time in years, we spent this past Christmas together as a family (my parents, siblings and their families). It was probably the most meaningful Christmas I've had in a very long time.

Hang in there! The Lord loves all of us the same, no matter what church we do or don't attend.

User avatar
ajax
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7956
Location: Pf, Texas

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by ajax »

BrotherOfMahonri wrote: ...the constant judgement the adversary is good at whispering to all around us... "they don't have Barbies or watch Disney"
...and I hope you aren't too hard on those of us who play with Barbie and watch Disney.

User avatar
Obrien
Up, up and away.
Posts: 4901

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by Obrien »

ajax wrote:
BrotherOfMahonri wrote: ...the constant judgement the adversary is good at whispering to all around us... "they don't have Barbies or watch Disney"
...and I hope you aren't too hard on those of us who play with Barbie and watch Disney.
If you're playing Barbie's, I will continue to wear tasseled loafers with abandon.

Faith
captain of 10
Posts: 37

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by Faith »

Testing testing. My last two post did not post.

User avatar
Obrien
Up, up and away.
Posts: 4901

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by Obrien »

Sadly, I do not think the LDS church will ever renounce polygamy. It would damage the claim to an unbroken chain of PSRs in touch with Heaven to outright denounce it, IMO.

ajax - in response to your "shareable" comment above:

At the outset, let me state I am ambivalent about the whole polygamy issue. I believe none of us but the most devoted scholar has a snowball’s chance in hell of understanding historical issues. The “truth” of historical happenings that were incendiary and shrouded in secrecy at their outset are harder still to discern based on the records we have. It is a fool’s errand to state ANYTHING as categorically true or false unless you lived it, and even then, you MAY be correct. The only thing that would convince me of “the truth” would be a direct revelation from the Holy Spirit, and to date I have not had one about polygamy – likely because it matters not a fig to me either way. I am perfectly willing to accept it or reject it, just as soon as I have a witness of it. That said…


There are sometimes equally valid ways to differently understand the same words. For example, Bill Clinton famously ejaculated stated he "did not have sex with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky". If you are a Clinton fan, that is eye witness, first hand testimony that he did not have sex with Ms. Lewinsky. If you're a bit more skeptical of Bill, you might understand that comment to mean he did not have "normal" sexual intercourse with her, but that leaves the door open to many other practices that many would consider sexual, not including actual intercourse.


I am always skeptical of politicians who tell me "not a penny of your hard earned tax dollars went to (fill in the blank)". That statement can easily be read to mean that any expense greater than a single penny MAY have occurred, and very well might have occurred. (The same logic holds for earnest GAs who claim not a single penny of tithing went into the CC mall...but I digress).


As a scriptural example of differing and possibly legitimate interpretations of the same words, I'll offer the following:
2 Nephi 32:5-6
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

I was taught from an early age that Nephi was talking prophetically to his descendants who would be alive at the time Christ came to visit the Nephites after His resurrection. I was blissfully unaware that the BoM is written for the gentiles, too, and I am one of them. As a youth and a good MM adult, I never connected the dots that the same conditions applied for salvation before Christ's death as after His death. Nephi laboriously lays out what is required in Ch 31 and the first bit of Ch 32 to enter the path. I accepted the teaching of my youth as "the" correct interpretation of V 5 and 6 - that Jesus would give us new doctrine after his resurrection that would supplant the Law of Moses. Period.


As I began to study the BoM more rigorously as an adult, I came to see these passages differently. I understand now that we should each follow the path laid out by Nephi in Ch 31 and 32 to enter the path. Once you enter into the way and receive the Holy Ghost, you must follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost in order to learn the things that YOU INDIVIDUALLY must know / do in order to become worthy of a personal visitation by the Saviour, in the flesh. Because we are all individuals with individual strengths and weaknesses, the promptings we receive may be different for each of us. Then, after you receive this witness, THIS MANIFESTATION TO YOU WHILE YOU ARE IN THE FLESH, He will give you more doctrine that you will be responsible for following in addition to or possibly in place of the former doctrine you lived in order to receive this MANIFESTATION IN THE FLESH. This interpretation is equally valid as the one I learned in my youth, and actually squares with the whole unchanging God thing much more nicely. Perhaps both interpretations are valid, but one should not be dismissed as the ONLY POSSIBLE WAY to understand these passages.

In much the same way, I have always understood Jacob 2 as down on polygamy, but making an allowance for it to raise up a righteous group. This meaning was taught to me in Sunday School and Seminary as THE meaning of those verses (22-33, esp. v 30). When I read those verses again yesterday, I see them as Jacob saying roughly the following:

V 22: If you were only guilty of pride, seeking riches, and covetousness, I’d be happy.
V23: You have been reading the brass plates and are using the example of David and Solomon as justification for committing sexual wickedness.
V 24: David and Solomon had many wives, it is true, but it was not pleasing to the Lord.
V 25: Because of the entrenched wickedness of the people in Jerusalem, the Lord has led us away from there to the promised land to establish a righteous group of people.
V 26: The Lord is not happy that the group of happy righteous people He is trying to establish. You are adopting the lifestyle noted above and you seek to justify your wickedness because of another prominent man’s actions.
V 27: Let me tell you what the Lord wants us to do to be the righteous branch He wants to raise up: you should have one wife and nothing on the side.
V 28: Sexual purity makes the Lord happy, sexual impurity makes Him unhappy.
V 29: Keep the commandments (all the commandments, and especially the ones regarding your naughty bits).
V 30: Because the Lord wants to raise up a righteous group of people, He takes the burden of clearly telling you what He wants you to do. If He does not clearly tell you what He wants you to do, you will he continue to hearken to the false traditions you read to the brass plates and continue to justify your sexual sins.
V 31: The Lord knows that the sexual sins (those sins of David and Solomon) of husbands causes deep hurt and distress for the women of these husbands. Don’t hurt the women in your lives to satisfy your ego and lust.
V 32: The Lord will not allow the hurt and distress of the Nephite women in the promised land to go unpunished.
V 33: If the men persist in committing whoredoms, they will be cursed with a sore curse, and may even be destroyed.

TL;DR version
So, to summarize, having many wives and concubines was a sin in old days, but David and Solomon did it anyway. The ancient Jews continued the practice, and justified it by citing the acts of David and Solomon. In part, this wickedness of having many wives caused the Lehite migration to the promised land and the destruction of Jerusalem. In the promised land, Lehi and presumably Nephi preached against such things, but their teachings were ignored because men like a little action on the side. The Lord took a personal interest in raising up the Lehites, so He gave them a clear commandment (NOT to have many wives) so they would not continue to justify their sins based on the behavior of long dead famous guys. I’m left where I began, but with a new perspective that the Lord did NOT EVER intend for the Lehites to live with many wives, and that may apply, by extension, to us who received their record. After all, when it was written only the most important parts made it in the record, and when it was abridged, only the most important of the most important parts made it into the final draft.

Spoiler alert : in reading all this closely, I believe it is interesting, but that it has virtually nothing to do with our circumstances today. These words were written specifically for the Lehites (see V 25-26). I do not limit the Lord in requiring or forbidding anything He sees fit to prescribe or proscribe. Thus the necessity of living by the Spirit. It is all really hard to understand polygamy / polyandry / spiritual wifery / sealings / etc, especially with a boner.
Last edited by Obrien on May 21st, 2015, 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

nicknack22
captain of 50
Posts: 66
Location: slc utah

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by nicknack22 »

I hope the church renounces polygamy, and many other false traditions set forth by joseph smith and others. Long shot though.

User avatar
jbalm
The Third Comforter
Posts: 5348

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by jbalm »

Obrien wrote:
ajax wrote:
BrotherOfMahonri wrote: ...the constant judgement the adversary is good at whispering to all around us... "they don't have Barbies or watch Disney"
...and I hope you aren't too hard on those of us who play with Barbie and watch Disney.
If you're playing Barbie's, I will continue to wear tasseled loafers with abandon.
You own shoes?

(By the way, your super long post was pretty good. )

Fiannan
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12983

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by Fiannan »

ajax wrote:
BrotherOfMahonri wrote: ...the constant judgement the adversary is good at whispering to all around us... "they don't have Barbies or watch Disney"
...and I hope you aren't too hard on those of us who play with Barbie and watch Disney.
Know what the Barbie doll is based on???

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/ ... istory.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh well, not as weird as the reason Kellogg developed his famous cereal.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 9418
Contact:

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by marc »

Well thought out, studied and written, O'brien. That summarizes my own sentiments regarding the matter.

User avatar
SpeedRacer
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1207
Location: Virginia, just outside of D.C.

Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by SpeedRacer »

Sorry for the TL:DR post, but I put this together to explain the revelation I had. My revelation matches what BoM said here on this thread. I appreciate his courage in sharing. Two Witnesses.

Polygamy

The Book of Mormon does not support polygamy
Jacob 2
Jacob finishes talking about pride, and goes on to discuss the men breaking the hearts of the women and children in practicing plural marriage.

23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

We think that because of David and Solomon and others in the scriptures that we can justify plural marriage? Jacob was a prophet who wrote scripture and said that those who think such do not understand the scriptures. Where does that put you? That also goes for understanding the book of Jacob, especially chapter 2 in the Book of Mormon

Jacob 2:29-30
These are the hallmark verses for justifying polygamy by anyone who thinks it is of the Lord.

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

Misunderstanding these verses can be understood because of our limited use of the English language and understanding of the Family of God and the specifics of the different types of seed. Let’s start with some demonstration of the use of the word seed in the book of Mormon:

1 Nephi 7:1 And now I would that ye might know, that after my father, Lehi, had made an end of prophesying concerning his seed, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto him again, saying that it was not meet for him, Lehi, that he should take his family into the wilderness alone; but that his sons should take daughters to wife, that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise.

We see that Lehi was prophesying concerning his seed, or those that were covenanted to be his by his obedience to the commands of the Lord. Then we see that his sons need daughters to raise up seed unto the Lord. Why does it not say so they can have seed? Does it have anything to do with it being in a land of promise, or a land that was covenanted to them by God?

Later in 1 Nephi 12:14 And the angel said unto me: Behold thy seed, and also the seed of thy brethren.

The angel did not mention the Lord’s seed here, he was talking about the seed of Nephi and his brethren that would just so happened would be living in the place to where they would be moving. There is clearly a difference between the two. Both cases came from heavenly sources. Fortunately for us, we can figure it out using the rest of the Book of Mormon.

Mosiah 15:10-14
10 And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?
11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God.
12 For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?
13 Yea, and are not the prophets, every one that has opened his mouth to prophesy, that has not fallen into transgression, I mean all the holy prophets ever since the world began? I say unto you that they are his seed.
14 And these are they who have published peace, who have brought good tidings of good, who have published salvation; and said unto Zion: Thy God reigneth!

Here we get a definition of who is the seed of the Lord. We also have to decipher what the rest of Jacob 2:30 is talking about when he says commandments and these things. It all comes together as we dig into the Book of Mormon, we even stay in the book of Mosiah, but go back to chapters 2-5.

The setting for these chapters is this. There is a people who live the Law of Moses (The commandments to all the House of Israel at that time) reigned over by a righteous king (Mosiah 2:3). This King does not even ask for support from his people, but works to support himself, he is just and humble. He pours his heart out to the Lord for his people so that he may be just in his decisions and actions. As a result of his supplications an Angel of the Lord comes to him and gives him things to declare (Mosiah 3:2).

So then the message is declared to the people and it has an amazing result. We read chapter 4 and 5 that describe them. First in chapter 4 they experience pointed introspection, then we see that King Benjamin was expecting this and then continued the sermon for the rest of chapter 4. It is in chapter 5 that we see the ultimate results of the entire sermon. Verse 2-5 has the reaction of the people, it is quite amazing and gives you wonder why not every single person who reads these chapters does not experience the same thing. However because of the changes King Benjamin makes the astounding declaration in verse 7:

7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

Here is a people being described as the seed of the Lord, or the sons and daughters of Christ. This occurred right after receiving a divine message from a righteous leader who received it from an Angel by revelation. We find in Mosiah 2-5 the exact working in Jacob 2:30.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

If we work through the verse backward, the people were hearkening unto the things the Lord had already commanded them (Mosiah 2:3). “These things” referred to by Jacob was the act of keeping the commandments in the Law of Moses, including not committing adultery by the people of King Benjamin. They were keeping the commandments so well, and their hearts were in the right place, so God sent and angel with a message to command his people (Mosiah 3:2). Because the hearts of the people were right, the sermon resulted in a mighty change in the hearts of the people, he rose seed up unto himself as they entered into a covenant that had been extended in the sermon by King Benjamin (Mosiah 5:7).

Section 132 vs. established scripture
Let’s remember that in 1830 the Book of Mormon was brought forth, in 1835 the Doctrine and Covenants was accepted by the church, and by 1848 the church had accepted the King James version of the Bible with the changes made in the JST as scripture. Section 132 was not brought forth until 1852, after polygamy was already being practiced. The account of its reception was given in an affidavit in 1874 by William Clayton. In that affidavit, it says:

When the revelation was written there was no one present except the Prophet Joseph, his brother Hyrum and myself.

In 1852 the two other witnesses were dead, so the law of witnesses is broken for this section. It was not added to the D&C until 1876.

Section 132 vs. the Bible
So we look at the contents of section 132:

Section 132:34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife.

Compare that to the Old Testament in the existing LDS canon and we find this

Genesis 16:2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

The contradiction is fierce. God did not command Abraham, Sarai said unto Abram. This is pre-covenant Abram trying to keep his wife happy and remove her shame. Of course it backfired if you keep reading the story.

Section 132 vs. The Book of Mormon
We go back to section 132 and find another verse that seems to justify polygamy:

Section 132:38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

We compare this verse back to Jacob 2 in the “Most correct book” the Book of Mormon.

23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

Jacob 2 is speaking directly to the person who wrote verse 38 in section 132. They did not understand the scriptures and were seeking to excuse themselves in whoredoms. Those whoredoms were abominable before the Lord no matter when they were committed. Fortunately for Abraham, Issac, Jacob and others, it can be forgiven.

Section 132 vs. 1835 D&C
The account of the acceptance by the church of the 1835 D&C as scripture
http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSumma ... t-1835&p=6

The preface the first presidency about the 1835 D&C

To the members of the church of the Latter Day Saints—
Dear Brethren:
We deem it to be unnecessary to entertain you with a lengthy preface to the following volume, but merely to say, that it contains in short, the leading items of the religion which we have professed to believe.
The first part of the book will be found to contain a series of Lectures as delivered before a Theological class in this place, and in consequence of their embracing the important doctrine of salvation, we have arranged them into the following work.
The second part contains items or principles for the regulation of the church, as taken from the revelations which have been given since its organization, as well as from former ones.
There may be an aversion in the minds of some against receiving any thing purporting to be articles of religious faith, in consequence of there being so many now extant; but if men believe a system, and profess that it was given by inspiration, certainly, the more intelligibly they can present it, the better. It does not make a principle untrue to print it, neither does it make it true not to print it.
The church viewing this subject to be of importance, appointed, through their servants and delegates the High Council, your servants to select and compile this work. Several reasons might be adduced in favor of this move of the Council, but we only add a few words. They knew that the church was evil spoken of in many places—its faith and belief misrepresented, and the way of truth thus subverted. By some it was represented as disbelieving the bible, by others as being an enemy to all good order and uprightness, and by others as being injurious to the peace of all governments civil and political.
We have, therefore, endeavored to present, though in few words, our belief, and when we say this, humbly trust, the faith and principles of this society as a body.
We do not present this little volume with any other expectation than that we are to be called to answer to every principle advanced, in that day when the secrets of all hearts will be revealed, and the reward of every man’s labor be given him.
With sentiments of esteem and sincere respect, we subscribe ourselves your brethren in the bonds of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Signed
JOSEPH SMITH jr.
OLIVER COWDERY.
SIDNEY RIGDON.
F[rederick] G. WILLIAMS.

Declaration on Marriage in the 1835 D&C
1 According to the custom of all civilized nations, marriage is regulated by laws and ceremonies: therefore we believe, that all marriages in this church of Christ of Latter Day Saints, should be solemnized in a public meeting, or feast, prepared for that purpose: and that the solemnization should be performed by a presiding high priest, high priest, bishop, elder, or priest, not even prohibiting those persons who are desirous to get married, of being married by other authority. We believe that it is not right to prohibit members of this church from marrying out of the church, if it be their determination so to do, but such persons will be considered weak in the faith of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Marriage should be celebrated with prayer and thanksgiving; and at the solemnization, the persons to be married, standing together, the man on the right, and the woman on the left, shall be addressed, by the person officiating, as he shall be directed by the holy Spirit; and if there be no legal objections, he shall say, calling each by their names: “You both mutually agree to be each other’s companion, husband and wife, ob serving the legal rights belonging to this condition; that is, keeping yourselves wholly for each other, and from all others, during your lives.” And when they have answered “Yes,” he shall pronounce them “husband and wife” in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by virtue of the laws of the country and authority vested in him: “may God add his blessings and keep you to fulfill your covenants from henceforth and forever. Amen.”
3 The clerk of every church should keep a record of all marriages, solemnized in his branch.
4 All legal contracts of marriage made before a person is baptized into this church, should be held sacred and fulfilled. Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again. It is not right to persuade a woman to be baptized contrary to the will of her husband, neither is it lawful to influence her to leave her husband. All children are bound by law to obey their parents; and to influence them to embrace any religious faith, or be baptized, or leave their pa rents without their consent, is unlawful and unjust. We believe that all persons who exercise control over their fellow beings, and prevent them from embracing the truth, will have to answer for that sin.

The Divine Pattern
In the creation story in Genesis, God Created Adam and Eve. Is there a time in the history of the world when quick multiplication of seed was needed more? Why not polygamy here? Because it was not appointed by God.

In the flood story in Genesis there is another dire need for quick multiplication. God saves eight people as recorded in scripture, Noah, Ham, Shem and Japeth and their wives respectively.

He is giving us a divine pattern. We can dig into the New Testament and find this further explained.

1 Corinthians 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

Titus 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife…

1 Timothy 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife

Even Nephi in the Book of Mormon (in a situation where he could use some quick multiplication) says he takes one wife.
1 Nephi 16:7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also, my brethren took of the daughters of Ishmael to wife; and also Zoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.

Locked