Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

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KMCopeland
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by KMCopeland »

Fiannan wrote:
KMCopeland wrote: But this is another dispensation. We are supposed to be living a higher law now, not just regarding polygamy, but regarding all those unevolved, primitive customs of many thousands of years ago. I'd like to think we can rise to that challenge.
And yet there are people who feel that polygamy is rising to the challenge of living a higher law.
Yes there are. A lot of people believe a lot of crazy things. It was ever thus.
Fiannan wrote:This morning I went in for a health physical. In the waiting room there was a screen with various tips on healthy living, etc. One of the announcements however was for a large fertility clinic (part of a research hospital) that is desperately seeking sperm and egg donors. I would actually go in if I was in the age category they are seeking. The point is that more and more women are seeking sperm donations because they are in their 30s and unmarried and they don't want to miss their opportunity to have at least one baby.
Women past their peak fertility years will have just as hard a time conceiving in a polygamous relationship as in a normal one. And considering all the excellent treatments for infertility now, selecting polygamy as a way to address it is some serious overkill.
Fiannan wrote:Polygamy would obviously be better for women willing to enter into it as their children would at least know their dad, as opposed to anonymous sperm donations.
That's not obvious because, again, entering into polygamy just so your children can know who their dad is, is a case of the cure being much worse than the illness. IMHO.
Fiannan wrote:Even LDS women entering into lesbian marriages could avail themselves of this as they could marry a worthy man; and even if they did use artificial insemination the children would be born into a male-female family.
And you think lesbian women would buy that argument? I don't know fiannan. You must know something I don't know. Which wouldn't surprise me at all.
Fiannan wrote:Anyway, considering that many LDS couples have very little sex anyway then what difference would it make if a lesbian LDS couple were to marry a man if only for his name and fatherhood
I don't get the connection between frequency of sex and marrying a man for his name and his ability to father a child only. I really, really don't.
Fiannan wrote: -- hey wait, doesn't the Bible predict that very thing for the future?
I'd love to see that scripture. But knowing the oddities contained in the darker recesses of the Old Testament, I'm not going to be surprised if you come up with it.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by TrueIntent »

TrueIntent wrote:Your C.S. Lewis quote sums up how I feel about turning a blind eye to this....But my question to you is....how does knowing all this affect your testimony? How are you able to denounce Plural marriage, while our current leadership does not, and yet still feel like you are in harmony with the church?
I'm not in harmony with the Church. I love them -- but I don't love the lies we've been fed. But what I never forget is that I don't know what is really in their hearts -- "their" meaning the Brethren, and not just the current ones, all of them who have fostered all the deception, mostly about Joseph Smith. I wonder if some of them aren't like most of us -- ignorant of the things in early church history that are so troubling. It sounds crazy, but it's possible. If you're so busy with promoting the Church and perfecting the Saints, you don't have much time to read up on things like this, and then you'd have to be motivated to read up on it, and these guys are very motivated not to do that. I can easily see the part they've played -- well, most of them -- in hiding the truth for so long as benign. As a sin more of omission than commission. That does diminish that whole "prophet, seer & revelator" thing somewhat. I find that's easier to live with than I thought it would be.

I completely agree with this statement. I actually thought my Sister's falling away was due to her reading false doctrine, at first. I didnt have time to sit down and study the essays thoroughly until I myself became very ill earlier this year. I only had the energy to stay in bed most days, and so during this time I read and I studied the essays, especially on plural marriage, because that had always been a sore spot for me. It led me to where I am now...but of questions and feeling quite a bit of distrust. I have turned to LDSFF because I realized in my research that I couldnt talk to my leaders about this. i don't think they have the knowledge that I have on the subject simply because they havent had the time to study it. Also, during my studying, a friend said that during a temple recommend interview, he asked his stake president about some of the things that were in the essays...his stake president warned him to be careful, because he was walking a dangerous road....REALLY? its not safe to ask questions of our leaders....we are walking a a dangerous road????....this is why I turned to LDSFF
TrueIntent wrote:I feel exactly like you do about plural marriage, but carrying quite a bit of guilt for finally taking a stand on the issue. I don't plan to leave the church, but now everything I have been taught I seem to be questioning in my mind. This is an open question to everyone who is active, and has a knowledge that plural marriage is not a true doctrine...how do you maintain your testimony? I now can say I have so much empathy for people who are struggling and leaving the church. I have always been a diehard...served as a temple worker, accepted every calling with enthusiasm, and done everything I have been asked to do, but since reading church history, how does one remain a diehard, while questioning leadership? I am struggling.
Questioning is good. Treasure it. Struggle is good too. They are both hard. They are both very high expressions of your higher and better self. I don't think you should abandon them. I don't think anyone should.

You won't remain a diehard. You'll brook a lot more dissent now. Maintain your testimony? It has helped mine. It has helped refine my definition of "testimony." It makes me braver in bearing it, and clearer on what I actually did and didn't have a testimony of. More truthful in other words. I bear my testimony now not of Joseph Smith, but of my fellow brothers and sisters. They are truly the salt of the earth, and head and shoulders above any other group of people anywhere. That's my testimony. Most of all, it's made me more honest. I no longer have to stuff that nagging voice saying "polygamy is an ugly thing. It couldn't have ever been anything but." I always knew that -- had a testimony of it. Now I can let that out into the light of day. I might not get up at fast & testimony meeting and say "I have a testimony that polygamy is a crock." I don't think I need to hurt people who still innocently believe all of it.

This is the part I am really struggling with. The diehard part. For example, I have always been a monthly temple goer, also taking my own family names. I am now struggling with the things I have read about the ordinances in the early church...the temple ordinances we perform today are not what were originally practiced by Joseph Smith...things were very different under BY, and BY is a man that don't trust or respect now that I have actually read about him. How much of my testimony do I change????? I worry I might be doing busy-work like the Pharisees instead of the work of Christ. (i am really scaring myself) I don't want to drop everything, but now I don't even know what I believe. Have you gone through this???? Has anyone else gone through this? The whole "diminished" role of Prophet seer and revalator is what I am going through now. I don't want to waist my time as a pharisee, when I could be volunteering at the local food bank...does that make sense??

The guilt will never go completely away, but it will diminish. This is a part of you -- it's almost in your DNA. You're responding to your higher self by facing it. It's your lower self that says "don't do it!" And both selves are part of us all. Maybe it's as much about self-acceptance as anything else.

It makes me see the questioners with new eyes too -- sympathetic, compassionate ones. I has just made me a better person. Going along with orchestrated deception is destructive to the soul. Saying what you know to be true, even if only to yourself and other people in the same place on the continuum as you are, is a relief. You find yourself in a position that people often find themselves in: do I go along to get along, or do I put a stop to the dissembling? I've found I can be honest a lot more easily than I can play along now. It's been liberating. I agree....i have a new sense of compassion for those who have fallen away. I can't imagine what it would feel like to have members tell you that you aren't praying enough, or reading your scriptures enough, or living worthily. It would feel like a slap in the face when all you want is answers.

Go ahead and cherish the Church. It deserves it. Continue to love and treasure the people in it. They are what I have my strongest testimony of -- their goodness, and their decency, and their honorable natures. Many of them will never have the doubts you have because they'll never do the research that you've done. That's okay. They're still some of the finest people in the world. They didn't have anything to do with the organized deception we're talking about. I think you can stick with them, and let your testimony evolve from what it once was into something a little better. And go easy on yourself. All you're doing is being what you've been taught to be by the Church, and by the Brethren: true to the whisperings of the Spirit. If you get in trouble for it (and I haven't yet), that's the price you pay for integrity. But I hope you don't have to pay that price. I think you can continue to be active and involved in the church without compromise. But I don't think you'll ever again be able to tolerate those conversations about how nice it was to have help with the housework and the kids in the polygamy days, or that nonsense about how it was to take care of all those old, ugly reject women that made it across the plains husbandless, or any of the other institutionalized lies we've all heard, all our lives if the subject ever comes up. "To raise up a righteous seed," that's the one that drives me the craziest. I guess that's why Joseph Smith married all those already married women, right? They didn't need him to raise up a righteous seed. And then there's the crazy idea that he never consummated any of those marriages. Have you heard that yet? If you haven't, you will. If it was to raise up a righteous seed, why didn't he sleep with them? He slept with them. And it didn't have anything to do with raising up a righteous seed. He married them because they were old and ugly and nobody else would have them? Of course. I guess that's why most of them were in their 20's and 30's, several younger than 20, and one of them 14. Just hopeless cases that no other man would ever want I guess. I did once say, when that "it was to give all those ugly old women a chance at exaltation," baloney came up in a conversation, that I hoped they weren't going to pursue that because I probably wouldn't be able to let it go. They didn't.I have heard all those things, and now that I know the truth, I am furious. My sister, at the time she fell away, her husband was having an affair. She couldn't trust the one man in her life that she was closest to (our father also, had multiple affairs, and his father as well) Talk about trust issues in our family!....learning this about early church leaders doesn't do much to strengthen someone's trust during their personal trials or trust issues. How can leadership expect to counsel people who are currently in the midst of a major trial of trust, when the truth has been suppressed or omitted. I am really taking a walk in my sisters shoes right now. Every major issue of sin, i.e. pornography, adultry, hiding funds from your spouse, lying, stealing, cheating....an effective pattern for covering up your wrongs could be modeled after the way things have been handled by our leaders. I worry that people who are actually dealing with real trials---trials like adultery, and are truly suffering because of the actions others, are the ones that will suffer the most when they find out the deception that has occurred in the church. Your Molly-mormons who have never had to experience any real difficulties are the ones who can walk away saying, "believe anyway, some things we just aren't meant to understand" but its the ones who are suffering from the actions of others are the ones who will be hurt the most.

The good news is it doesn't come up much because everybody, in their heart of hearts, knows it's an abomination. They don't want to bring up something they're trying not to think about. Some people are just a little bit more in touch with their own conscience, also known as the Holy Ghost, than others are. It's a blessing or a curse, depending on who you talk to. I have to believe it's a blessing, ultimately. We're answerable to God for the things we tolerate. Or encourage. Or help cover up. Like CS Lewis says. The consequences of how we handle a quest for truth come at the end of the quest, not at the beginning. I'll wait for my comfort if I have to. Since it will last a lot longer than the easy comfort of going along to get along.[/quote]

KMCopeland
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by KMCopeland »

slimjamm wrote:Copeland, please explain to me how you can accept a fullness while rejecting any part of it??
I don't think you can.
slimjamm wrote:Please reconcile your stance and statements with what the Lord states in D&C 1:38.
It's the beginning and the end of my stance. That though the earth shall pass away, His word shall not pass away and if somebody comes along and tells you something that contradicts His word, it's a mistake to go along with it.
slimjamm wrote:You have no scriptural or doctrinal backing whatsoever in declaring Abraham, Issac, Jacob were in fact sinning in regards to plural marriage.
I'm less comfortable calling it sin in those men than a culturally sanctioned error. It's for sure they didn't preach it as essential to salvation/exaltation like Joseph, Brigham, and others did. But I'm not their judge and I'm not Joseph's. God is. I am able however, to judge error, and to refuse to go along with it no matter how lofty a personage is preaching it.
slimjamm wrote:You state Joseph DID receive this doctrine as a revelation, yet state he was wrong in teaching it.
I state he claimed it was a revelation. Not that it was one. I don't believe it could have been.
slimjamm wrote: Show me where the Lord stated this.
When he said "Thou shalt not commit adultery."
slimjamm wrote:And while you're at it please provide the chastisement and condemning the Lord gave Joseph for doing this great evil.
Well, he allowed the mob to murder him. Joseph prayed mightily for deliverance from Liberty Jail. He died there. But I don't know exactly how God decided to deal with him after that and I don't need to. It's none of my business. What's my business is me avoiding error and embracing truth. That's what I'll be judged for.
slimjamm wrote:You're welcome to your silly idea of grasping bits and peices while calling it a fullness of truth.
You're too kind.
slimjamm wrote:You should take your own advice and come to terms with the truth.
I never give advice I'm not willing to take.

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slimjamm
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by slimjamm »

KMCopeland wrote:
slimjamm wrote:Copeland, please explain to me how you can accept a fullness while rejecting any part of it??
I don't think you can.
Yet you continue to try over and over. Please explain to me how a man married to multiple women, (who have knowingly entered into this marriage contract) is committing adultery? Which one of his wives is he committing adultery with? How do you commit adultery with your spouse?

marktheshark
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by marktheshark »

KMCopeland wrote:
slimjamm wrote:It is impossible to state you accept individuals such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Brigham, etc. as prophets of the Lord Jesus Christ, while in the same breath stating you only accept part(s) of the revelation(s) they received and were commanded to teach. In dismissing one, two, or all of these individuals, you also attempt to make a liar of Jesus Christ.
The only people in that list who claimed they were commanded to teach polygamy are Brigham Young and Joseph Smith. The rest of them practiced it because it was a cultural norm. They didn't teach it was essential to exaltation.
slimjamm wrote:You don't have to like the idea of plural marriage, heck, you aren't even required to live it. But you cannot truthfully state you believe in and follow Jesus Christ, His apostles, the Plan of Salvation, the scriptures, and at the same time reject fully the law of Patriarchal Marriage.
Of course you can.
slimjamm wrote:You either accept it all as truth, or must reject the whole of it.
Simply not true.
slimjamm wrote:They are ALL interwoven and hang from the same truthful principles.
Which is why polygamy sticks out like a sore thumb.

To claim that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were the only ones who taught that they were commanded to live polygamy and the other prophets who lived it only out of cultural norms and not by way of commandment is making a massive assumption with gaping holes.

Just because Abraham is not quoted as being commanded by Jehovah to practice polygamy in the Old Testament, doesn't mean he wasn't commanded.

I am pretty well sure that if Abraham, the Father of Covenant Israel, practiced polygamy it was because the Lord at least approved of it, if not outright commanded it. Otherwise, he would have been guilty of adultery and if I think I know a little something about how the Lord works, a man guilty of adultery and actively living that way would not have received the blessings and covenants Abraham did. Nor would the 12 tribes have been birthed through the practice.

It's only doctrinally logical.


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