Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

[Tony]

Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth,
and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth; these personages, according to
Abraham’s record, are called
God the first, the Creator;
God the second, the Redeemer;
and God the third, the witness or Testator

The third "personage" here, God the third, is not Adam. It is the Holy Ghost, the witness or Testator.

From Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith: "The Holy Ghost is a personage and is in the form of a personage."

And we read in D&C 130:22: "The Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit."

[shadow]

Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth,
and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth; these personages, according to
Abraham’s record, are called
God the first, the Creator;
God the second, the Redeemer;
and God the third, the witness or Testator

The third "personage" here, God the third, is not Adam. It is the Holy Ghost, the witness or Testator.

From Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith: "The Holy Ghost is a personage and is in the form of a personage."

And we read in D&C 130:22: "The Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit."

I think he's saying the first personage is aka Adam.

[KMCopeland]

Monogamy is great for the US economy. It increases divorce, encourages stress which enables people to get prescriptions for drugs, encourages immorality...what could be better for a thriving economy?

Interesting theory. I don't know if we should make personal moral decisions based on whether it's good for the economy or not. But that's just me.

Encourages stress? What stress would that be? The stress of being monogamous? Well by all means. Let's all reduce all of our stress by giving in to the temptation that resisting is causing us all that stress.

Encourages immorality? How does that one work?

It's actually probably adultery that increases divorce. Not monogamy. Which, like it or not, is what polygamy is: adultery sanctioned by its victims.

Well...

“This law of monogamy, or the monogamic system, laid the foundation for prostitution and the evils and diseases of the most revolting nature and character under which modern Christendom groans…”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 195

“Since the founding of the Roman empire monogamy has prevailed more extensively than in times previous to that. The founders of that ancient empire were robbers and women stealers, and made laws favoring monogamy in consequence of the scarcity of women among them, and hence this monogamic system which now prevails throughout all Christendom, and which has been so fruitful a source of prostitution and whoredom throughout all the Christian monogamic cities of the Old and New World, until rottenness and decay are at the root of their institutions both national and religious.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 11, p. 128

Today we see the effects of delayed marriage and even people seeing marriage optional. We have social decay. Women are given the drive to reproduce and when that instinct is thwarted it will result in immorality as no woman with a healthy libido can be expected to be celibate her whole life. Also, women are far more communal in nature which is to be expected if one is to create and sustain a family. Males are more individualistic and more of them are perfectly happy to forgo reproduction than women are.

Polygamy at least gives women options and thus if even a few percent of the US population of women were living the principle there would be less available women for the men, and nowadays women, to see as available sexual partners.

You and Pratt and BY are totally giving the argument for why gay marriage and sex outside of marriage should be okay. According to your theory, we are all too weak to control ourselves sexually in the long run, so there needs to be a loop hole in place for our weakness...aka plural marriage. The problem with this is....if we can't control ourselves without plural marriage, why do we expect gays or widows, or anyone else to live the law of chastity for the long run......apparently it's not possible to be chaste over extended periods of time. Commandments are designed for the weakest of us, so are hetero males the weakest???

Also, plural marriage only benefits the heterosexual male. I highly doubt BY was satisfying all his wives sexually, however, I bet money he was pretty satisfied. Why would Christ teach laws of chastity if it weren't possible to live them? I guess Christ was just setting us up to fail.

It concerns me that people who claim plural marriage is divine, would use quotes like this to justify the practice. This quote by Pratt and BY is one of the very reasons people question the doctrine all together. Even if I did believe the practice was holy, if those quotes hit the front page of LDS newsroom by mistake, I guarantee the church would be scrambling to condemn them. That's the problem...when our leaders got wrapped up in plural marriage, they started making claims like these.

Nailed it.

[KMCopeland]

Food for thought. D&C 84:54-57 says this:

"And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation. And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—"

So what were those former commandments? We need to learn about them and then DO according to that which was written. In other words, the commandments in the Book of Mormon still apply where they have not been explicitly rescinded. It would make sense for God to have a book written for us today and it actually apply to us now instead of contradicting new commandments. So with that, here's a former commandment:

Jacob 2:27,34: "Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;...And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done."

And in the same sermon (Jacob 3:5): "Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father—that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them."

It was not a suggestion or a policy, it was a commandment. There is no record of this commandment in the Book of Mormon save for Jacob's words, but I'll bet it was spelled out in the Book of Lehi that was unfortunately lost to us. This commandment was never rescinded and God never commanded it for any reason in history except for one place in time allegedly. Here is Brian and Linda Hales, authors of "Joseph Smith's Polygamy" making an astouning claim:

"Do we know that polygamy will ever be commanded again? In the 6000 years of religious history, the only adherents to be commanded were the Latter-day Saints between 1852 and 1890. Upon what basis does anyone assert that it will be commanded again?" Brian and Linda Hales, http://blog.fairmormon.org/wp-content/u ... fusion.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

D&C 84 was written in 1832, before any polygamy was going on. President Benson said we are still under condemnation, maybe it is because we still haven't paid attention to the Book of Mormon in this respect. I know, some might say, "Oh well polygamy isn't that important of a thing that God would hold people under condemnation."

Oh really? The Lord said "not only to SAY but to DO according to that which I have written [in the Book of Mormon]" and apparently the commandment to have only one wife (that the Lamanites were keeping) was the SOLE thing keeping them from destruction. I shared Jacob 3:5 above, here's the next verse:

"And now, this commandment they observe to keep; wherefore, because of this observance, in keeping this commandment, the Lord God will not destroy them, but will be merciful unto them; and one day they shall become a blessed people."

The word "commandment" is mentioned FOUR times in Jacob's sermon in relation to having one wife only. D&C 84 admonishes the modern church to "remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—"

This seems pretty clear to me, but that's my contribution to the discussion. The good news is that the modern church has mostly DONE according to the Book of Mormon commandment to have one wife but we still SAY a lot about it and support it verbally because we have to have perfect prophets. People make mistakes, even prophets. I don't know if they did or not, there's so much heresay and contradictions in the history that it is such a mess.

But what I've presented here seems to indicate that having only one wife is pretty darn important. Viewing church history through this lens explains a lot. It could explain Joseph's death, why the Lord didn't stand by and defend the Saints from getting driven and scattered and why the Church suffered so many difficulties until it shed itself from polygamy.

We no longer "do", but we still "say." Maybe we still need to completely purge ourself from this practice in order to truly "become a blessed people."

Outstanding insights. Thank you.

[slimjamm]

Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth,
and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth; these personages, according to
Abraham’s record, are called
God the first, the Creator;
God the second, the Redeemer;
and God the third, the witness or Testator

The third "personage" here, God the third, is not Adam. It is the Holy Ghost, the witness or Testator.

From Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith: "The Holy Ghost is a personage and is in the form of a personage."

And we read in D&C 130:22: "The Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit."

Tony, you missed a key part. The covenant made related to THEIR dispensations. I don't believe the Holy Ghost was the head of any dispensation, but Michael was, (who also created this earth). Jesus Christ was, (who was obviously the Redeemer). And Joseph Smith Jr. was (who was the witness or Testator).

D&C 135:5 ..The testators are now dead, and their testament is in force.

"I have asked the Lord to take me away. I have to seal my testimony to this generation with my blood. I have to do it for this work will never progress until I am gone for the testimony is of no force until the testator is dead.
People little know who I am when they talk about me, and they never will know until they see me weighed in the balance in the Kingdom of God. Then they will know who I am, and see me as I am. I dare not tell them and they do not know me.” (Joseph Smith as quoted by Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner, Plural wife of the Prophet, BYU, 1905)

[KMCopeland]

The Holy Spirit has been upon me for some time as I have pondered, studied out, and prayed sincerely about this topic, and I now prophesy in the workings of the Holy Spirit in my heart and the common sense he has given me to understand truth by the Holy Spirit, even the blessing of the potential to know the truth of all things, that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy, and the LDS Church will renounce such historical untruths, false affidavits, etc. of him having ever established and practiced polygamy in the not too distant future, which will bring upon the church a blessing that has been withheld because of this unbelief.

The LDS Church will state that polygamy was never practiced by the Prophet, Seer and Revelator, Joseph Smith Jr., clearing the good name of the man who has done more for our salvation save the Savior himself, and showing to the world in effect, Satan has more power upon the hearts and minds of the people than we realize or give thought towards - as he has stuck his foot into the restoration and due to man's weakness has succeeded in promulgating the false history of Joseph's supposed polygamy.

Praise God that he reveals his truths to babes and to those who think not that they are learned, wise, and scholarly.

One of the first things that happens, when polygamy will no longer remain stuffed into the back of your consciousness, is you tell yourself that Joseph couldn't have been a part of it. People blame various people -- Brigham Young, Sidney Rigdon, etc. -- anybody but Joseph. They go to a lot of trouble to prove that Joseph Smith wasn't a polygamist, but it all boils down to everybody was lying. Which isn't likely. And it also requires that you figure out a way to convince yourself that the overwhelming evidence for his nearly ribald polygamy, was all made up. I found I just couldn't do it. But don't think I didn't try. I tried hard. I just couldn't pull it off.

Your next step will be to accept that indeed, Joseph Smith was not only a polygamist, he was an enthusiastic one. That he did it in secret. That he lied to his wife about it, repeatedly. He lied to many people about it. I just read a very thoughtful post that expressed something that's occurred to me before, that maybe polygamy was the sin that led to his death.

I don't know how long it will take you to get there. I know you're probably going to lash out at me for saying you will. But you will. Some people leave the church in anger over it. Which is understandable. But I don't think it's necessary. You don't need to leave all that's good about the modern church, over the rot that was in the early one. But it's really up to you. I do advise though, not getting mad at people who are no longer able to deceive themselves about this. They're just a little further along the road than you are.

But as for your idea that the church will ever renounce polygamy, I'm not optimistic. Renouncing polygamy means renouncing Joseph Smith. Renouncing Joseph Smith means renouncing the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. The temple rites would have to go too, and then all we are is Methodists with a pioneer history. I just don't see it ever happening.

[KFarber]

I am grateful for these posts, from both sides - what an experience!
To sum up what I was indeed prompted to post, maybe for my own sake per the Lord's infinite wisdom...

As for me and my house, we believe we need to know and not sit on the fence and wait in these matters, and so far, in our journey the Lord confirms such seeking diligently after the truth and knowledge of these things, and every time the truth comes to us clearly on a matter like this, it is not by having read scholarly works, (although that is part of the process) adhering to the accepted norm when confusion is apparent, but by the process of what I have come to know as common sense prophecy by the workings of the Holy Ghost, something I've had through my life (where I know something years before an "apostle" or "prophet" shares it in GC as an example or my mission president before he ever states it, or something in society before it ever comes about) that I am now realizing is the spirit of prophecy, something i know is available to all of us who desire and live for it.

I also now know that such a gift we can all attain to is weakened when we fear man over what God is giving you through his spirit, be it by fear of man's commands or the accepted traditions of our fathers - even if it goes against the grain and will bring upon you persecution and hell from any side - if you do not declare it when the spirit is telling you plainly to do so (sometimes he constrains not to) then the gift is lessened, and it is painful when such happens. It will require some faith and some trial and error, but in the end faith will move you forward with this gift that I believe all of us can have, which is to prophesy by the workings of the spirit of things to come - a gift we desperately need NOW in our lifetime, which spirit of prophecy has proven to be in my life, a common sense over all intellectual debate, philosophy and scholarly work (where truth can be found but never proven entirely but by faith), such that a child can declare it if needs be.

I get that I claim to know something others don't know, and I am now seeing how family and others (TBM or otherwise) hate, despise, dislike, or misunderstand me for it, as how dare I ever think to be worthy to have God glance his eye to me and give to me the spirit of prophecy per my heart's motives, desires, diligence in his restored Gospel and living it and wanting it written upon the walls of my heart, and the love only Christ can give one towards their fellow man (and I now see my family and many here TBM or otherwise have done just that, how dare you Jared! Damn you to hell for it!)

I agree that I would hate myself too, and possibly be spitting at me in the face - if I was not in my shoes, and it is incomprehensible even to me years back, but now is no longer that way, and praise God and give him all Glory for it - it is absolutely comforting despite the spitting and hell, as no other influence can give me such assurance and hope and enlightenment, confidence enough to declare things boldly, not for any vain glory but the Glory of God and his truths he Does desire we all attain to, and to the call of repentance to our fellow mankind, and God's purpose and glory.

An invite to consider yourself a potential recipient of prophecy, just as Lehi was lead to prophesy, Nephi, and many others ALL OF US CAN ATTAIN TO SUCH, and I am a nobody living proof now, and if you know a little about my history on this LDSFF, you can see my journey learning this, and now I will prayerfully (asking God to humble me and chasten me always) but boldly prophecy as the spirit works such prophecy in my heart, and I cannot wait until others begin to feel what I now feel, see what I now see, surpass what I am capable of doing in the Lord, and experience what i have experienced now that the Lord has given me enough line upon line where the layers now have built a beautiful vision of what it is like to have the spirit of prophecy, and what an irony to myself and maybe all of you TBMs, that I am no longer a member of the church, but I am a member of the church of Christ, and he whose right it is to declare his own members has let me know I am - and I prophecy that I will be back in His church if you will - better prepared of the Lord, which will not be exactly the LDS church you and I see today, but a future church cleansed of some hypocrisy, but mostly cleansed in the sense of TRUTH within its members by faith and the pattern to attain to truth being opened to many more will begin to abound, and our sons and daughters (of which I am one) will prophesy, and dreams and visions will increase, and I see even DS and others like him will be back fully, as the church I will once again be a happy member of will be aided and supported again by the man who has the keys and has the right to lead it in our dispensation and has been working to find branches willing to become worthy and capable to get us back to a fullness, which this man Joseph died attempting to restore.

This future state of the church will ultimately be without the need of babylonian money, economy, or corporate status, and I prophesy it will not be long before we see things align up in our world to facilitate such changes, and as Joseph declared the misery of many souls in his prophecy of the war that was to come (D&C 87) upon the inhabitants of the newly founded nation I prophesy in the name of the Lord that things are coming fast and many are already at hand, just covered up by false assurances, things even this year - that will help facilitate even necessarily facilitate such changes and we will need to have taken the Holy Spirit as our guide so as to not be deceived over all counsel of man, as man will lead us, no matter how good or inspired, into dark and dreary wildernesses from which only God can delivery us, if such men are not working and declaring their workings in the name of the Lord and in the spirit of prophesy - a pattern God has established to help us be not deceived, a pattern that is throughout scripture.

Such is my faith, and when my faith leads to sweet fruits, the spirit beckons me to share them with my fellow man despite hell or high water. Come to attain the spirit of prophecy in your life, come oh come and put away anything that distracts you from attaining to such, and take faith that God will indeed pay attention to each of us personally as we exercise faith in him alone.

I give you my witness. God desires we all prophesy and become like unto Lehi, Nephi, Mormon, and Moroni, even like unto Moses, and I declare that satan has been masterfully NUMBING such knowledge we can attain to in part, even a great part, through the error of polygamy in the church, the blasphemy of testifying Joseph practiced it - which I prophesy in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ will change (polygamy and Joseph) in what we know as the restored church and gospel of Jesus Christ and will require many to introspect their faith and what it is built upon.

Can anyone read this and feel not to rejoice? Oh that I were an angel like unto our fellow saints in Christ of old times, and could declare what I now am being given to understand, you and I can and shall prophecy! Praise God that he is working his own strange act such that in my lifetime we will begin to build the city Joseph saw in vision, and will build such without our current babylonian economy! I am a nobody, a nobody that indeed, has and can attain to the spirit of prophesy which gives me the common sense of my brother, the Holy Ghost in my life - a mystery that is beautiful beyond words to express, common sense of the Holy Spirit - who would have thunk it possible?!

I am confident that many others already have this spirit of prophesy but know it not (and it is Satan's plan to do all possible to keep such from ever knowing), as such has been my experience for decades now. It has been with me, and I am now lead to believe (and will study this out) it is with some of the brethren, but not all, and is not uniquely for them whatsoever, but all can attain to such, even the spirit of prophesy, and I declare as Moses did of old, I would to God all of us were prophets and the LORD would put his spirit upon them, that all would prophesy!

Love this!

[KMCopeland]

I think someone needs to study D&C 132

That could be a mistake.

[KMCopeland]

BrotherOfMahonri has linked to 2 blatantly anti-LDS websites. He has 874 posts since joining the forum last month, which is 21.32 posts per day.

One of the two anti-LDS websites he links to is Utah Lighthous Ministry, founded by the infamous anti-LDS couple, Jerald and Sandra Tanner.
He also links to other anti-LDS websites in his posts.

BrotherOfMahonri is on this forum to ridicule and discredit the Church. BrotherOfMahonri should be banned.

Why not let his positions rise or fall on their merits or lack thereof?

The instinct to eliminate people whose ideas we don't like is annoying. Just defend your position. If you prevail, bully for you. If you don't, I suggest a little introspection. It's just what the doctor ordered.

[KMCopeland]

Brigham Young never taught the Adam-God theory. If you read what Joseph Fielding Smith said, it says Brigham Young's sermon was "erroneously transcribed." Joseph Fielding Smith then proves that Brigham Young clearly knew that Adam was not God. That is why President Kimball said the Adam-God theory was "alleged to have been taught." Anyone claiming it was taught is either misinformed or purposely lying in an effort to discredit the Church.

Your denial skill is impressive.

[KMCopeland]

I wouldn't be so quick to denounce any commandment of God, Cope.

Polygamy was no commandment. Not from God anyway.

[Bee Prepared]

I wouldn't be so quick to denounce any commandment of God, Cope.

Polygamy was no commandment. Not from God anyway.

And what if God commanded it now, would you comply?

[SmallFarm]

I wouldn't be so quick to denounce any commandment of God, Cope.

Polygamy was no commandment. Not from God anyway.

How audacious of you to state it in such a way. So you are in the camp that all those who practiced it were following the inspiration of the Devil? :-\

[SmallFarm]

What about animal sacrifice Copeland? Were all the prophets in the Old Testament blood thirsty heathens? Or were they just confused?I want to know how much you want to parse the scriptures to fit your modern-day world-view.

[Tony]

Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth,
and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth; these personages, according to
Abraham’s record, are called
God the first, the Creator;
God the second, the Redeemer;
and God the third, the witness or Testator

The third "personage" here, God the third, is not Adam. It is the Holy Ghost, the witness or Testator.

From Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith: "The Holy Ghost is a personage and is in the form of a personage."

And we read in D&C 130:22: "The Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit."

I think he's saying the first personage is aka Adam.

That would not make sense because sandman seems to have acknowledged in other quotes that Adam was not God the Father. I got the distinct impression that he was implying that Adam is God the third in Joseph Smith's quote. But I could be wrong about what sandman was trying to say.

[KMCopeland]

All the people who stoned and killed the prophets thought they were the ones with "common sense." The people who constantly attacked the saints in the early days of the Church thought they had "common sense." The telestial kingdom will be full of people who thought they had "common sense."

You're rationalizing. People can think they have common sense, but still not have it.

It's very, very, very, very hard, when you've been raised in the church, to finally have to face the polygamy doctrine for what it really is: a huge mistake. We learn, from Sunbeams on, what a good man Joseph was, how he was so pure and righteous and holy and all that. It's a very hard thing to contemplate that maybe he wasn't. It's still very difficult for me.

The church of today is an enormous force for good in the world, and in the individual lives of the members. I'm proud of it, I love it, and I will defend it. And the church of today bears almost no resemblance to the early church.

KMCopeland, I myself have been having a difficult time with the knowledge that some of our leaders were not who we have been taught they are. I have recently come to this conclusion myself after my sister left the church after reading the church essays, and sadly, I told her that her accusations were false doctrine, and then I finally read the essays myself and researched them and realized she was just quoting the essays. I am struggling for the first time in my life. Not with the fact that people aren't perfect, but with the fact that our early church prophets were living in a way that was deceptive, and in direct conflict with how the Book of Mormon prophets lived while they acted as prophets. Book of Mormon Prophets were courageous, honest, and men without guile....not anything like what I have read in history about early church leaders (for almost up until the early 1900's the leaders struggled with not just plural marriage, but honesty, and word of wisdom as well.) Which leads me to struggle with current leadership, because they have left this information out of our manuals and websites, until recently, and now publish it without so much as explaining how it fits into what the narrative of what we have been taught to believe.

It's very hard to reconcile all the deception. You will though, find among all the deception, a lot of struggles similar to yours and mine. B. H. Roberts for one, asked a lot of hard questions -- hard for him to ask, and hard to answer. I find his story especially poignant. He remained active and faithful to the Church -- but his questions were never really answered. I always consider him a kindred spirit.

Your C.S. Lewis quote sums up how I feel about turning a blind eye to this....But my question to you is....how does knowing all this affect your testimony? How are you able to denounce Plural marriage, while our current leadership does not, and yet still feel like you are in harmony with the church?

I'm not in harmony with the Church. I love them -- but I don't love the lies we've been fed. But what I never forget is that I don't know what is really in their hearts -- "their" meaning the Brethren, and not just the current ones, all of them who have fostered all the deception, mostly about Joseph Smith. I wonder if some of them aren't like most of us -- ignorant of the things in early church history that are so troubling. It sounds crazy, but it's possible. If you're so busy with promoting the Church and perfecting the Saints, you don't have much time to read up on things like this, and then you'd have to be motivated to read up on it, and these guys are very motivated not to do that. I can easily see the part they've played -- well, most of them -- in hiding the truth for so long as benign. As a sin more of omission than commission. That does diminish that whole "prophet, seer & revelator" thing somewhat. I find that's easier to live with than I thought it would be.

I feel exactly like you do about plural marriage, but carrying quite a bit of guilt for finally taking a stand on the issue. I don't plan to leave the church, but now everything I have been taught I seem to be questioning in my mind. This is an open question to everyone who is active, and has a knowledge that plural marriage is not a true doctrine...how do you maintain your testimony? I now can say I have so much empathy for people who are struggling and leaving the church. I have always been a diehard...served as a temple worker, accepted every calling with enthusiasm, and done everything I have been asked to do, but since reading church history, how does one remain a diehard, while questioning leadership? I am struggling.

Questioning is good. Treasure it. Struggle is good too. They are both hard. They are both very high expressions of your higher and better self. I don't think you should abandon them. I don't think anyone should.

You won't remain a diehard. You'll brook a lot more dissent now. Maintain your testimony? It has helped mine. It has helped refine my definition of "testimony." It makes me braver in bearing it, and clearer on what I actually did and didn't have a testimony of. More truthful in other words. I bear my testimony now not of Joseph Smith, but of my fellow brothers and sisters. They are truly the salt of the earth, and head and shoulders above any other group of people anywhere. That's my testimony. Most of all, it's made me more honest. I no longer have to stuff that nagging voice saying "polygamy is an ugly thing. It couldn't have ever been anything but." I always knew that -- had a testimony of it. Now I can let that out into the light of day. I might not get up at fast & testimony meeting and say "I have a testimony that polygamy is a crock." I don't think I need to hurt people who still innocently believe all of it.

The guilt will never go completely away, but it will diminish. This is a part of you -- it's almost in your DNA. You're responding to your higher self by facing it. It's your lower self that says "don't do it!" And both selves are part of us all. Maybe it's as much about self-acceptance as anything else.

It makes me see the questioners with new eyes too -- sympathetic, compassionate ones. I has just made me a better person. Going along with orchestrated deception is destructive to the soul. Saying what you know to be true, even if only to yourself and other people in the same place on the continuum as you are, is a relief. You find yourself in a position that people often find themselves in: do I go along to get along, or do I put a stop to the dissembling? I've found I can be honest a lot more easily than I can play along now. It's been liberating.

Go ahead and cherish the Church. It deserves it. Continue to love and treasure the people in it. They are what I have my strongest testimony of -- their goodness, and their decency, and their honorable natures. Many of them will never have the doubts you have because they'll never do the research that you've done. That's okay. They're still some of the finest people in the world. They didn't have anything to do with the organized deception we're talking about. I think you can stick with them, and let your testimony evolve from what it once was into something a little better. And go easy on yourself. All you're doing is being what you've been taught to be by the Church, and by the Brethren: true to the whisperings of the Spirit. If you get in trouble for it (and I haven't yet), that's the price you pay for integrity. But I hope you don't have to pay that price. I think you can continue to be active and involved in the church without compromise. But I don't think you'll ever again be able to tolerate those conversations about how nice it was to have help with the housework and the kids in the polygamy days, or that nonsense about how it was to take care of all those old, ugly reject women that made it across the plains husbandless, or any of the other institutionalized lies we've all heard, all our lives if the subject ever comes up. "To raise up a righteous seed," that's the one that drives me the craziest. I guess that's why Joseph Smith married all those already married women, right? They didn't need him to raise up a righteous seed. And then there's the crazy idea that he never consummated any of those marriages. Have you heard that yet? If you haven't, you will. If it was to raise up a righteous seed, why didn't he sleep with them? He slept with them. And it didn't have anything to do with raising up a righteous seed. He married them because they were old and ugly and nobody else would have them? Of course. I guess that's why most of them were in their 20's and 30's, several younger than 20, and one of them 14. Just hopeless cases that no other man would ever want I guess. I did once say, when that "it was to give all those ugly old women a chance at exaltation," baloney came up in a conversation, that I hoped they weren't going to pursue that because I probably wouldn't be able to let it go. They didn't.

The good news is it doesn't come up much because everybody, in their heart of hearts, knows it's an abomination. They don't want to bring up something they're trying not to think about. Some people are just a little bit more in touch with their own conscience, also known as the Holy Ghost, than others are. It's a blessing or a curse, depending on who you talk to. I have to believe it's a blessing, ultimately. We're answerable to God for the things we tolerate. Or encourage. Or help cover up. Like CS Lewis says. The consequences of how we handle a quest for truth come at the end of the quest, not at the beginning. I'll wait for my comfort if I have to. Since it will last a lot longer than the easy comfort of going along to get along.

[Tony]

BrotherOfMahonri has linked to 2 blatantly anti-LDS websites. He has 874 posts since joining the forum last month, which is 21.32 posts per day.

One of the two anti-LDS websites he links to is Utah Lighthous Ministry, founded by the infamous anti-LDS couple, Jerald and Sandra Tanner.
He also links to other anti-LDS websites in his posts.

BrotherOfMahonri is on this forum to ridicule and discredit the Church. BrotherOfMahonri should be banned.

Why not let his positions rise or fall on their merits or lack thereof?

The instinct to eliminate people whose ideas we don't like is annoying. Just defend your position. If you prevail, bully for you. If you don't, I suggest a little introspection. It's just what the doctor ordered.

He is either ridiculing the Church or he actually is a false prophet. His OP states: "The Holy Spirit has been upon me for some time . . . . and I now prophesy in the workings of the Holy Spirit."

Either way, he should be banned.

[Fiannan]

Also, plural marriage only benefits the heterosexual male

Not true at all. As it gives more options to women it actually would benefit women much more -- monogamy limits their options and forces many, especially those with more desirable characteristics, to have to compete with each other for desirable males; and this leaves many without marriage partners and children. As for males it might not be all that good for men who are lesser quality in regards to intelligence, ambition or physical fitness but, as only a minority of women would opt for polygamy given the cultural norms that constrain most regular people, most, regrettably, would still be able to pass their genes on to the next generation.

[KMCopeland]

What about animal sacrifice Copeland? Were all the prophets in the Old Testament blood thirsty heathens? Or were they just confused?I want to know how much you want to parse the scriptures to fit your modern-day world-view.

Is someone using the fact that there was animal sacrifice in the Old Testament to justify doing it today?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

[KMCopeland]

I wouldn't be so quick to denounce any commandment of God, Cope.

Polygamy was no commandment. Not from God anyway.

And what if God commanded it now, would you comply?

He would never command it. Since it's a sin.

[KMCopeland]

*

[LDS Dude]

BrotherOfMahonri has linked to 2 blatantly anti-LDS websites. He has 874 posts since joining the forum last month, which is 21.32 posts per day.

One of the two anti-LDS websites he links to is Utah Lighthous Ministry, founded by the infamous anti-LDS couple, Jerald and Sandra Tanner.
He also links to other anti-LDS websites in his posts.

BrotherOfMahonri is on this forum to ridicule and discredit the Church. BrotherOfMahonri should be banned.

Why not let his positions rise or fall on their merits or lack thereof?

The instinct to eliminate people whose ideas we don't like is annoying. Just defend your position. If you prevail, bully for you. If you don't, I suggest a little introspection. It's just what the doctor ordered.

He is either ridiculing the Church or he actually is a false prophet. His OP states: "The Holy Spirit has been upon me for some time . . . . and I now prophesy in the workings of the Holy Spirit."

Either way, he should be banned.

Pfft, not the first person I would ban who has made copious responses in this thread. They make so many arguments and are at odds with everyone on almost any topic I find it distasteful to read this forum as much as I have in the recent past. He just has to have the last word on anything and does not agree with anyone on anything.

[Tony]

He is either ridiculing the Church or he actually is a false prophet. His OP states: "The Holy Spirit has been upon me for some time . . . . and I now prophesy in the workings of the Holy Spirit."

Either way, he should be banned.

Pfft, not the first person I would ban who has made copious responses in this thread. They make so many arguments and are at odds with everyone on almost any topic I find it distasteful to read this forum as much as I have in the recent past. He just has to have the last word on anything and does not agree with anyone on anything.

I post on this forum so that people can read God's eternal truths instead of the ramblings of apostates like BrotherOfMahonri.

[LDS Dude]

He is either ridiculing the Church or he actually is a false prophet. His OP states: "The Holy Spirit has been upon me for some time . . . . and I now prophesy in the workings of the Holy Spirit."

Either way, he should be banned.

Pfft, not the first person I would ban who has made copious responses in this thread. They make so many arguments and are at odds with everyone on almost any topic I find it distasteful to read this forum as much as I have in the recent past. He just has to have the last word on anything and does not agree with anyone on anything.

I post on this forum so that people can read God's eternal truths instead of the ramblings of apostates like BrotherOfMahonri.

And I read this forum to gain insights, not to read lefty liberal diatribes from people who have all the time in the world to craft a well worded response to any and everyone who thinks differently. I am not talking about you in case you haven't caught on.

[Tony]

I post on this forum so that people can read God's eternal truths instead of the ramblings of apostates like BrotherOfMahonri.

And I read this forum to gain insights, not to read lefty liberal diatribes from people who have all the time in the world to craft a well worded response to any and everyone who thinks differently. I am not talking about you in case you haven't caught on.

I know you are not talking about me. I posted those words so that people can see there are those of us who fight the good fight in response to all the distastefulness.