Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

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KMCopeland
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

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Fiannan wrote:
KMCopeland wrote: But this is another dispensation. We are supposed to be living a higher law now, not just regarding polygamy, but regarding all those unevolved, primitive customs of many thousands of years ago. I'd like to think we can rise to that challenge.
And yet there are people who feel that polygamy is rising to the challenge of living a higher law.
Yes there are. A lot of people believe a lot of crazy things. It was ever thus.
Fiannan wrote:This morning I went in for a health physical. In the waiting room there was a screen with various tips on healthy living, etc. One of the announcements however was for a large fertility clinic (part of a research hospital) that is desperately seeking sperm and egg donors. I would actually go in if I was in the age category they are seeking. The point is that more and more women are seeking sperm donations because they are in their 30s and unmarried and they don't want to miss their opportunity to have at least one baby.
Women past their peak fertility years will have just as hard a time conceiving in a polygamous relationship as in a normal one. And considering all the excellent treatments for infertility now, selecting polygamy as a way to address it is some serious overkill.
Fiannan wrote:Polygamy would obviously be better for women willing to enter into it as their children would at least know their dad, as opposed to anonymous sperm donations.
That's not obvious because, again, entering into polygamy just so your children can know who their dad is, is a case of the cure being much worse than the illness. IMHO.
Fiannan wrote:Even LDS women entering into lesbian marriages could avail themselves of this as they could marry a worthy man; and even if they did use artificial insemination the children would be born into a male-female family.
And you think lesbian women would buy that argument? I don't know fiannan. You must know something I don't know. Which wouldn't surprise me at all.
Fiannan wrote:Anyway, considering that many LDS couples have very little sex anyway then what difference would it make if a lesbian LDS couple were to marry a man if only for his name and fatherhood
I don't get the connection between frequency of sex and marrying a man for his name and his ability to father a child only. I really, really don't.
Fiannan wrote: -- hey wait, doesn't the Bible predict that very thing for the future?
I'd love to see that scripture. But knowing the oddities contained in the darker recesses of the Old Testament, I'm not going to be surprised if you come up with it.

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TrueIntent
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

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TrueIntent wrote:Your C.S. Lewis quote sums up how I feel about turning a blind eye to this....But my question to you is....how does knowing all this affect your testimony? How are you able to denounce Plural marriage, while our current leadership does not, and yet still feel like you are in harmony with the church?
I'm not in harmony with the Church. I love them -- but I don't love the lies we've been fed. But what I never forget is that I don't know what is really in their hearts -- "their" meaning the Brethren, and not just the current ones, all of them who have fostered all the deception, mostly about Joseph Smith. I wonder if some of them aren't like most of us -- ignorant of the things in early church history that are so troubling. It sounds crazy, but it's possible. If you're so busy with promoting the Church and perfecting the Saints, you don't have much time to read up on things like this, and then you'd have to be motivated to read up on it, and these guys are very motivated not to do that. I can easily see the part they've played -- well, most of them -- in hiding the truth for so long as benign. As a sin more of omission than commission. That does diminish that whole "prophet, seer & revelator" thing somewhat. I find that's easier to live with than I thought it would be.

I completely agree with this statement. I actually thought my Sister's falling away was due to her reading false doctrine, at first. I didnt have time to sit down and study the essays thoroughly until I myself became very ill earlier this year. I only had the energy to stay in bed most days, and so during this time I read and I studied the essays, especially on plural marriage, because that had always been a sore spot for me. It led me to where I am now...but of questions and feeling quite a bit of distrust. I have turned to LDSFF because I realized in my research that I couldnt talk to my leaders about this. i don't think they have the knowledge that I have on the subject simply because they havent had the time to study it. Also, during my studying, a friend said that during a temple recommend interview, he asked his stake president about some of the things that were in the essays...his stake president warned him to be careful, because he was walking a dangerous road....REALLY? its not safe to ask questions of our leaders....we are walking a a dangerous road????....this is why I turned to LDSFF
TrueIntent wrote:I feel exactly like you do about plural marriage, but carrying quite a bit of guilt for finally taking a stand on the issue. I don't plan to leave the church, but now everything I have been taught I seem to be questioning in my mind. This is an open question to everyone who is active, and has a knowledge that plural marriage is not a true doctrine...how do you maintain your testimony? I now can say I have so much empathy for people who are struggling and leaving the church. I have always been a diehard...served as a temple worker, accepted every calling with enthusiasm, and done everything I have been asked to do, but since reading church history, how does one remain a diehard, while questioning leadership? I am struggling.
Questioning is good. Treasure it. Struggle is good too. They are both hard. They are both very high expressions of your higher and better self. I don't think you should abandon them. I don't think anyone should.

You won't remain a diehard. You'll brook a lot more dissent now. Maintain your testimony? It has helped mine. It has helped refine my definition of "testimony." It makes me braver in bearing it, and clearer on what I actually did and didn't have a testimony of. More truthful in other words. I bear my testimony now not of Joseph Smith, but of my fellow brothers and sisters. They are truly the salt of the earth, and head and shoulders above any other group of people anywhere. That's my testimony. Most of all, it's made me more honest. I no longer have to stuff that nagging voice saying "polygamy is an ugly thing. It couldn't have ever been anything but." I always knew that -- had a testimony of it. Now I can let that out into the light of day. I might not get up at fast & testimony meeting and say "I have a testimony that polygamy is a crock." I don't think I need to hurt people who still innocently believe all of it.

This is the part I am really struggling with. The diehard part. For example, I have always been a monthly temple goer, also taking my own family names. I am now struggling with the things I have read about the ordinances in the early church...the temple ordinances we perform today are not what were originally practiced by Joseph Smith...things were very different under BY, and BY is a man that don't trust or respect now that I have actually read about him. How much of my testimony do I change????? I worry I might be doing busy-work like the Pharisees instead of the work of Christ. (i am really scaring myself) I don't want to drop everything, but now I don't even know what I believe. Have you gone through this???? Has anyone else gone through this? The whole "diminished" role of Prophet seer and revalator is what I am going through now. I don't want to waist my time as a pharisee, when I could be volunteering at the local food bank...does that make sense??

The guilt will never go completely away, but it will diminish. This is a part of you -- it's almost in your DNA. You're responding to your higher self by facing it. It's your lower self that says "don't do it!" And both selves are part of us all. Maybe it's as much about self-acceptance as anything else.

It makes me see the questioners with new eyes too -- sympathetic, compassionate ones. I has just made me a better person. Going along with orchestrated deception is destructive to the soul. Saying what you know to be true, even if only to yourself and other people in the same place on the continuum as you are, is a relief. You find yourself in a position that people often find themselves in: do I go along to get along, or do I put a stop to the dissembling? I've found I can be honest a lot more easily than I can play along now. It's been liberating. I agree....i have a new sense of compassion for those who have fallen away. I can't imagine what it would feel like to have members tell you that you aren't praying enough, or reading your scriptures enough, or living worthily. It would feel like a slap in the face when all you want is answers.

Go ahead and cherish the Church. It deserves it. Continue to love and treasure the people in it. They are what I have my strongest testimony of -- their goodness, and their decency, and their honorable natures. Many of them will never have the doubts you have because they'll never do the research that you've done. That's okay. They're still some of the finest people in the world. They didn't have anything to do with the organized deception we're talking about. I think you can stick with them, and let your testimony evolve from what it once was into something a little better. And go easy on yourself. All you're doing is being what you've been taught to be by the Church, and by the Brethren: true to the whisperings of the Spirit. If you get in trouble for it (and I haven't yet), that's the price you pay for integrity. But I hope you don't have to pay that price. I think you can continue to be active and involved in the church without compromise. But I don't think you'll ever again be able to tolerate those conversations about how nice it was to have help with the housework and the kids in the polygamy days, or that nonsense about how it was to take care of all those old, ugly reject women that made it across the plains husbandless, or any of the other institutionalized lies we've all heard, all our lives if the subject ever comes up. "To raise up a righteous seed," that's the one that drives me the craziest. I guess that's why Joseph Smith married all those already married women, right? They didn't need him to raise up a righteous seed. And then there's the crazy idea that he never consummated any of those marriages. Have you heard that yet? If you haven't, you will. If it was to raise up a righteous seed, why didn't he sleep with them? He slept with them. And it didn't have anything to do with raising up a righteous seed. He married them because they were old and ugly and nobody else would have them? Of course. I guess that's why most of them were in their 20's and 30's, several younger than 20, and one of them 14. Just hopeless cases that no other man would ever want I guess. I did once say, when that "it was to give all those ugly old women a chance at exaltation," baloney came up in a conversation, that I hoped they weren't going to pursue that because I probably wouldn't be able to let it go. They didn't.I have heard all those things, and now that I know the truth, I am furious. My sister, at the time she fell away, her husband was having an affair. She couldn't trust the one man in her life that she was closest to (our father also, had multiple affairs, and his father as well) Talk about trust issues in our family!....learning this about early church leaders doesn't do much to strengthen someone's trust during their personal trials or trust issues. How can leadership expect to counsel people who are currently in the midst of a major trial of trust, when the truth has been suppressed or omitted. I am really taking a walk in my sisters shoes right now. Every major issue of sin, i.e. pornography, adultry, hiding funds from your spouse, lying, stealing, cheating....an effective pattern for covering up your wrongs could be modeled after the way things have been handled by our leaders. I worry that people who are actually dealing with real trials---trials like adultery, and are truly suffering because of the actions others, are the ones that will suffer the most when they find out the deception that has occurred in the church. Your Molly-mormons who have never had to experience any real difficulties are the ones who can walk away saying, "believe anyway, some things we just aren't meant to understand" but its the ones who are suffering from the actions of others are the ones who will be hurt the most.

The good news is it doesn't come up much because everybody, in their heart of hearts, knows it's an abomination. They don't want to bring up something they're trying not to think about. Some people are just a little bit more in touch with their own conscience, also known as the Holy Ghost, than others are. It's a blessing or a curse, depending on who you talk to. I have to believe it's a blessing, ultimately. We're answerable to God for the things we tolerate. Or encourage. Or help cover up. Like CS Lewis says. The consequences of how we handle a quest for truth come at the end of the quest, not at the beginning. I'll wait for my comfort if I have to. Since it will last a lot longer than the easy comfort of going along to get along.[/quote]

KMCopeland
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

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slimjamm wrote:Copeland, please explain to me how you can accept a fullness while rejecting any part of it??
I don't think you can.
slimjamm wrote:Please reconcile your stance and statements with what the Lord states in D&C 1:38.
It's the beginning and the end of my stance. That though the earth shall pass away, His word shall not pass away and if somebody comes along and tells you something that contradicts His word, it's a mistake to go along with it.
slimjamm wrote:You have no scriptural or doctrinal backing whatsoever in declaring Abraham, Issac, Jacob were in fact sinning in regards to plural marriage.
I'm less comfortable calling it sin in those men than a culturally sanctioned error. It's for sure they didn't preach it as essential to salvation/exaltation like Joseph, Brigham, and others did. But I'm not their judge and I'm not Joseph's. God is. I am able however, to judge error, and to refuse to go along with it no matter how lofty a personage is preaching it.
slimjamm wrote:You state Joseph DID receive this doctrine as a revelation, yet state he was wrong in teaching it.
I state he claimed it was a revelation. Not that it was one. I don't believe it could have been.
slimjamm wrote: Show me where the Lord stated this.
When he said "Thou shalt not commit adultery."
slimjamm wrote:And while you're at it please provide the chastisement and condemning the Lord gave Joseph for doing this great evil.
Well, he allowed the mob to murder him. Joseph prayed mightily for deliverance from Liberty Jail. He died there. But I don't know exactly how God decided to deal with him after that and I don't need to. It's none of my business. What's my business is me avoiding error and embracing truth. That's what I'll be judged for.
slimjamm wrote:You're welcome to your silly idea of grasping bits and peices while calling it a fullness of truth.
You're too kind.
slimjamm wrote:You should take your own advice and come to terms with the truth.
I never give advice I'm not willing to take.

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slimjamm
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by slimjamm »

KMCopeland wrote:
slimjamm wrote:Copeland, please explain to me how you can accept a fullness while rejecting any part of it??
I don't think you can.
Yet you continue to try over and over. Please explain to me how a man married to multiple women, (who have knowingly entered into this marriage contract) is committing adultery? Which one of his wives is he committing adultery with? How do you commit adultery with your spouse?

marktheshark
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by marktheshark »

KMCopeland wrote:
slimjamm wrote:It is impossible to state you accept individuals such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Brigham, etc. as prophets of the Lord Jesus Christ, while in the same breath stating you only accept part(s) of the revelation(s) they received and were commanded to teach. In dismissing one, two, or all of these individuals, you also attempt to make a liar of Jesus Christ.
The only people in that list who claimed they were commanded to teach polygamy are Brigham Young and Joseph Smith. The rest of them practiced it because it was a cultural norm. They didn't teach it was essential to exaltation.
slimjamm wrote:You don't have to like the idea of plural marriage, heck, you aren't even required to live it. But you cannot truthfully state you believe in and follow Jesus Christ, His apostles, the Plan of Salvation, the scriptures, and at the same time reject fully the law of Patriarchal Marriage.
Of course you can.
slimjamm wrote:You either accept it all as truth, or must reject the whole of it.
Simply not true.
slimjamm wrote:They are ALL interwoven and hang from the same truthful principles.
Which is why polygamy sticks out like a sore thumb.

To claim that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were the only ones who taught that they were commanded to live polygamy and the other prophets who lived it only out of cultural norms and not by way of commandment is making a massive assumption with gaping holes.

Just because Abraham is not quoted as being commanded by Jehovah to practice polygamy in the Old Testament, doesn't mean he wasn't commanded.

I am pretty well sure that if Abraham, the Father of Covenant Israel, practiced polygamy it was because the Lord at least approved of it, if not outright commanded it. Otherwise, he would have been guilty of adultery and if I think I know a little something about how the Lord works, a man guilty of adultery and actively living that way would not have received the blessings and covenants Abraham did. Nor would the 12 tribes have been birthed through the practice.

It's only doctrinally logical.

edavid
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

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Is this not a case of "Verily I say unto you, unless ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven" point of the entire first vision experience and example, to go directly to the Father and ask just like the young Joseph did, wherein "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." "for In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be aright, which is it, and how shall I know it? for they all claim to be right?"

"For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived — verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day”

Have we each taken this to the Lord and gained our own personal witness? What is this word witness we hear spoken of in general conference, are we to be saved by the witness of others, or are we alone responsible to gain our own witness, for "It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance."

edavid
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by edavid »

Say nothing but repentance unto this generation. D&C 6:9
Last edited by edavid on June 9th, 2023, 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tmac
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

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edavid wrote: May 28th, 2023, 10:00 am Is this not a case of "Verily I say unto you, unless ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven" point of the entire first vision experience and example, to go directly to the Father and ask just like the young Joseph did, wherein "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." "for In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be aright, which is it, and how shall I know it? for they all claim to be right?"

"For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived — verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day”

Have we each taken this to the Lord and gained our own personal witness? What is this word witness we hear spoken of in general conference, are we to be saved by the witness of others, or are we alone responsible to gain our own witness, for "It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance."
What would you say to those who have sincerely taken this and/or other similar questions to the Lord, and received no witness?

edavid
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by edavid »

tmac wrote: June 7th, 2023, 12:01 pm
edavid wrote: May 28th, 2023, 10:00 am Is this not a case of "Verily I say unto you, unless ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven" point of the entire first vision experience and example, to go directly to the Father and ask just like the young Joseph did, wherein "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." "for In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be aright, which is it, and how shall I know it? for they all claim to be right?"

"For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived — verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day”

Have we each taken this to the Lord and gained our own personal witness? What is this word witness we hear spoken of in general conference, are we to be saved by the witness of others, or are we alone responsible to gain our own witness, for "It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance."
What would you say to those who have sincerely taken this and/or other similar questions to the Lord, and received no witness?
Me personally, if in person, I would listen to the spirit to see what the Lord / Holy Spirit would have me share with that son or daughter of His... Each individual is on their own journey, open to new doctrine according to their open heart and current understanding. This often takes unlearning, which is difficult depending on how solidified their mind has become with one's upbringing, environment, and whether they are living unconciously - which is why the Lord forgave all those around him, for they "knew not what they do" literally in the sense of unconciousness.

With that said, the general response would center around the individuals conciousness to the idea of "Be Still and know that I am God". It is in that childlike (not childish) stillness-innocense, you will get an answer.

So I'd start there, heavenly inspired questions as Elder Scott would say, and guide them to their own inner kingdom and stillness. Once that inward personal stillness is discovered, it doesn't matter if you are running a marathon or in a rock concert, kids screaming, or you are in the midst of chaos, :D it's yours, and in that stillness (not physical, but 100% spiritual, emotional, mental, heart-connected child-like state of stillness) you will be given answers.

Religion, esp. LDS cultured religion tends to train the brain's neuropathways towards the opposite of this stillness and kingdom within, where most don't realize the Lords "My yoke is easy and my burden is light" due in large measure to how society trains us to think. Thinking is the problem, due to living in a babylonian-thinking society. I think, therefor I am - René Descartes approaches this from the ego (aka carnal natrual man).

The way the Lord helped me finally be still and know him for reals, was to point me to the truth within, and it appears many droves of others becoming enlightened enough to start to see Jesus's real message (falsely called new age, and also rightly practiced in falseness as new age, just another version of the Ego finding something to grasp onto, label, and make a religion out of) to what is real within me, within each of us, the kingdom of God within you, literally within you, vast library, truth, knowledge, and all.

For me, a devout, sincere, formerly religious LDS person, it took life changing circumstances, letting go of false authority belief (keyword belief) and then the pointing of the book, Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, and the author's invite to resist nothing, listen to the stillness between his words, the noises of things, judge nothing, label nothing, attach yourself to nothing, including your own label name given you at birth, and then practice the simply child-like unlearning excersizes.

The irony in this is you need not "learn" anything. If His way is really easy and light, then it's gotta be so much easier than kicking against the pricks so to speak that we devout religious suffer through and yet hear not the Lord's witnesses for so many decades.

edavid
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by edavid »

So has anyone else had their "ahah moment" with Jacob Chapter 2? Seeing it for the first time as the Lord intended it to be seen? This thread clearly guides the seeker to the child-like simplicity of that chapter, and then, if one is willing, the Lord can then offer you the new wine he wants to pour into your soul.

Spoiler: Jacob chapter 2 is entirely, 100%, no-excuse or exception, anti-polygamy, God never commanded it, Joseph never practiced it, and until that error is repented of (unlearned and corrected) the fullness will be kept from the church.

"Knowledge does not equal understanding, truth is truth no matter what I think about it, so be very careful how you interpret things because you are looking at the world with a bias..." - Destin.

Unlearning is harder than learning...

https://youtu.be/MFzDaBzBlL0?t=398
Last edited by edavid on July 29th, 2023, 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Luke
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

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edavid wrote: July 29th, 2023, 7:20 am Spoiler: Jacob chapter 2 is entirely, 100%, no-excuse or exception, anti-polygamy, God never commanded it, Joseph never practiced it, and until that error is repetned of (unlearned and corrected) the fullness will be kept from the church.
Lol polygamy literally is the Fullness. You’re simply wrong. Until you repent of your opposition to that principle, the fullness will be kept from you. The same goes for the Church.

“Hear it, ye elders of Israel, and mark it down in your log books: the fulness of the gospel is the United Order and the order of Plural Marriage, and without these two principles, this gospel can never be full, and I much fear that when I am gone, this people will give up these two principles which we prize so highly; and if they do, this church cannot advance as God wishes it to advance.” (Brigham Young, April 1877, The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 5:3112)

TwochurchesOnly
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by TwochurchesOnly »

Luke wrote: July 29th, 2023, 7:57 am
edavid wrote: July 29th, 2023, 7:20 am Spoiler: Jacob chapter 2 is entirely, 100%, no-excuse or exception, anti-polygamy, God never commanded it, Joseph never practiced it, and until that error is repetned of (unlearned and corrected) the fullness will be kept from the church.
Lol polygamy literally is the Fullness. You’re simply wrong. Until you repent of your opposition to that principle, the fullness will be kept from you. The same goes for the Church.

“Hear it, ye elders of Israel, and mark it down in your log books: the fulness of the gospel is the United Order and the order of Plural Marriage, and without these two principles, this gospel can never be full, and I much fear that when I am gone, this people will give up these two principles which we prize so highly; and if they do, this church cannot advance as God wishes it to advance.” (Brigham Young, April 1877, The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 5:3112)
".. we prize so highly ..."
SMH BY bs

Not at all the fullness of gospel- according to Christ - His doctrine

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Luke
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by Luke »

TwochurchesOnly wrote: July 29th, 2023, 10:39 am
Luke wrote: July 29th, 2023, 7:57 am
edavid wrote: July 29th, 2023, 7:20 am Spoiler: Jacob chapter 2 is entirely, 100%, no-excuse or exception, anti-polygamy, God never commanded it, Joseph never practiced it, and until that error is repetned of (unlearned and corrected) the fullness will be kept from the church.
Lol polygamy literally is the Fullness. You’re simply wrong. Until you repent of your opposition to that principle, the fullness will be kept from you. The same goes for the Church.

“Hear it, ye elders of Israel, and mark it down in your log books: the fulness of the gospel is the United Order and the order of Plural Marriage, and without these two principles, this gospel can never be full, and I much fear that when I am gone, this people will give up these two principles which we prize so highly; and if they do, this church cannot advance as God wishes it to advance.” (Brigham Young, April 1877, The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 5:3112)
".. we prize so highly ..."
SMH BY bs

Not at all the fullness of gospel- according to Christ - His doctrine
Maybe the fact that you don’t prize it highly says more about you than the principle?

anonymous91
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by anonymous91 »

inho wrote: May 20th, 2015, 9:02 am
rewcox wrote:I don't think so.

Jacob 2 gives some information on plural wives. Abraham actually practiced it, he is a God now.

If the church said JS did not, then they would have the problem that BY and others did.

Which would say that the church lost it since JS.

This is what DS wants you to believe. And others. The spirit thing you will need to work out for yourself.
I agree.

Even if JS never practised it, we still have the issue of biblical polygamy. In the Bible polygamy is everywhere (Abraham, Jacob, Moses, regulations of law of Moses etc.) In addition, we have Jacob 2, as rewcox pointed out. It is clear to me that at some times in some situations God allows polygamy.
I don't like it, but I can't deny it.

By that same line of thinking, we could also say that God allows slavery it's all throughout the scriptures too.

Just because God allows men to do foolish things does not mean he endorses or approves.

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Ymarsakar
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by Ymarsakar »

Just watch the chosen and ask god urself

anonymous91
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by anonymous91 »

BrotherOfMahonri wrote: May 20th, 2015, 10:28 am
marktheshark wrote:I think someone needs to study D&C 132
Having studied D&C 132, without the help or even knowing DS or Rock, I felt as the Lord lead me to whom that revelation was introduced and edited by, and when it was introduced. You should know this by now. I will not even go there with you, per your lack of sincerity with me, but for the sake of all those who are heeding the Spirit in this matter,

an invite to study the history of section 132, the only place where the Lord supposedly commands polygamy, a "revelation" kept in a drawer secretly by Brigham, which was a supposed copy of the original Emma burned (according to Brigham), which Brigham revealed as the Lord's will to Joseph, and only revealed 8 years after Joseph's death when Brigham felt it was time to reveal it to the church and live it.

I trust those seeking will be lead here and elsewhere by the Lord and let the Spirit do the teaching with these opposite understandings, of which I used to be exactly where most here are at in regards to the confusing (which confusion comes of the Devil mind you) doctrines taught &practiced, doctrines Joseph in part gave his life fighting and preaching against to his last days.

You have two choices in this matter in my view. Trust endless scholarly work and accept the "traditions" of our fathers, or ask the Lord to lead you to the truth as a child and let common sense come to you beautifully through the Holy Spirit of the Lord, even his voice guiding you outside the control of man's interpretations, doctrines, or philosophies, and those things the adversary has designed to distort your thinking to get us to err and wander in darkness.

I guarantee this knowledge will never come by scholarly work or proving or disproving documents, but by God's voice each of us has the opportunity to take as our guide and ask sincerely about this topic and any other.
To add to this, for anyone that is currently researching this topic. Be aware that D&C 101 was also significantly changed to remove a certain problematic stance that was made for monogamous marriages. Additionally, the addendum denouncing John C. Bennett's “secret wife system was also removed. Both of these were done years after Joseph was dead.

Apparently, Joseph planned to do a lot of things that he never did according to who you choose to listen to. 8-)

anonymous91
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by anonymous91 »

marktheshark wrote: May 20th, 2015, 11:04 am So what if Joseph Smith practiced polygamy or didn't?

It doesn't change my standing before the Lord one bit whether I think he did or did not.

Since the amount of evidence was compelling enough that the Church released an official statement about it, I think it's legitimate.
What evidence are you talking about specifically:

The evidence that you have women that swore an oath that they were pregnant by Joseph Smith, they lied. DNA definitely proves that.

How about one of the many wives of Brigham Young who stated that she would say whatever Brigham told her to say, she was too tired and old to fend for herself and become isolated from the community. She couldn't have possibly been coerced and manipulated by a narcissist, could she?

How about the court case considering polygamy against Joseph, and the women were all found to be untrustworthy liars?

The evidence that Section 101 was later manipulated and altered to remove certain problematic texts.

How about the several people that Joseph excommunicated for practicing polygamy?

Or maybe you are talking about multiple times in public when both Joseph & Hyrum denounced polygamy. Both vowed to excommunicate and eradicate it from the Church.

My guess though, is that you like the whitewashed version that the Church has spewed out, that you have so readily consumed. After being subject to gaslighting for years, you believe the lies and no longer question the narrative.

It is literally impossible to prove or disprove what Joseph Smith actually did since he is not here to defend himself.

That leaves us to speculate with what historical accounts that we have, that may or may not be accurate. For me, this is my thoughts on the matter:

1. Joseph Smith's character comes across as an honest and straightforward man. Not one to lie or subvert the truth, no matter the consequences. These "secret meetings" that he supposedly had, I believe are complete fabrications and never happened.

There are accounts supporting that these "secret meetings" happened, and there are other accounts claiming just the opposite. I believe that these "secret meetings" never happened.

As for me, I believe Joseph Smith when he publicly taught against polygamy.

2. Either Joseph Smith was a liar or Brigham Young was. The official church would have us believe that it was Joseph Smith that was the liar (but he had a good reason to 😂). I believe that Joseph's reputation was marred by the Official Church, and both Brigham Young and the Official Church have been lying and gaslighting us ever since.

Right around the time that Joseph & Hyrum were martyred, there was a huge rumor going around. The rumor was that Joseph & Hyrum had gotten wind that there were several high-ranking members in the Church that were secretly practicing polygamy. Joseph & Hyrum promised to root out every single one of these men, expose them, excommunicate them, and run them out of town. Guess what happened instead?

Is it any wonder that Emma called Brigham a liar and refused to go anywhere with him?

edavid
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by edavid »

Luke wrote: July 29th, 2023, 7:57 am
edavid wrote: July 29th, 2023, 7:20 am Spoiler: Jacob chapter 2 is entirely, 100%, no-excuse or exception, anti-polygamy, God never commanded it, Joseph never practiced it, and until that error is repetned of (unlearned and corrected) the fullness will be kept from the church.
Lol polygamy literally is the Fullness. You’re simply wrong. Until you repent of your opposition to that principle, the fullness will be kept from you. The same goes for the Church.

“Hear it, ye elders of Israel, and mark it down in your log books: the fulness of the gospel is the United Order and the order of Plural Marriage, and without these two principles, this gospel can never be full, and I much fear that when I am gone, this people will give up these two principles which we prize so highly; and if they do, this church cannot advance as God wishes it to advance.” (Brigham Young, April 1877, The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 5:3112)
Did you actually read through it, did you see it in the new light? Did you ask for a witness of these things?

edavid
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by edavid »

EdGoble wrote: May 20th, 2015, 9:20 am
BrotherOfMahonri wrote:The Holy Spirit has been upon me for some time as I have pondered, studied out, and prayed sincerely about this topic, and I now prophesy in the workings of the Holy Spirit in my heart and the common sense he has given me to understand truth by the Holy Spirit, even the blessing of the potential to know the truth of all things, that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy, and the LDS Church will renounce such historical untruths, false affidavits, etc. of him having ever established and practiced polygamy in the not too distant future, which will bring upon the church a blessing that has been withheld because of this unbelief.

The LDS Church will state that polygamy was never practiced by the Prophet, Seer and Revelator, Joseph Smith Jr., clearing the good name of the man who has done more for our salvation save the Savior himself, and showing to the world in effect, Satan has more power upon the hearts and minds of the people than we realize or give thought towards - as he has stuck his foot into the restoration and due to man's weakness has succeeded in promulgating the false history of Joseph's supposed polygamy.

Praise God that he reveals his truths to babes and to those who think not that they are learned, wise, and scholarly.
Workings of which spirit in your heart? Surely not the Holy Ghost that is in me.

I know by the Holy Ghost and by common sense that is in me that he who rejects this doctrine when it is duly authorized is Anti-Christ. Of course it is not authorized or commanded now. But that doesn't change who commanded it or permitted it at the times in history that it was either commanded or permitted.
You are much learned, and I respect your wisdom and knowledge, however your bias and learnings may be your downfall brother. Seek the Lord in this, be humble, and he will reveal His truths to you in this matter, as it does indeed matter, and the Church will be cleansed either willingly through sackcloth & ashes like humility and repentance of the gross error, or by the voice of mother earth.

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Luke
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by Luke »

edavid wrote: July 29th, 2023, 3:31 pm
Luke wrote: July 29th, 2023, 7:57 am
edavid wrote: July 29th, 2023, 7:20 am Spoiler: Jacob chapter 2 is entirely, 100%, no-excuse or exception, anti-polygamy, God never commanded it, Joseph never practiced it, and until that error is repetned of (unlearned and corrected) the fullness will be kept from the church.
Lol polygamy literally is the Fullness. You’re simply wrong. Until you repent of your opposition to that principle, the fullness will be kept from you. The same goes for the Church.

“Hear it, ye elders of Israel, and mark it down in your log books: the fulness of the gospel is the United Order and the order of Plural Marriage, and without these two principles, this gospel can never be full, and I much fear that when I am gone, this people will give up these two principles which we prize so highly; and if they do, this church cannot advance as God wishes it to advance.” (Brigham Young, April 1877, The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 5:3112)
Did you actually read through it, did you see it in the new light? Did you ask for a witness of these things?
God personally taught me everything I know about Celestial Plural Marriage. As for the precepts of men, I care very little.

edavid
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by edavid »

Luke wrote: July 29th, 2023, 6:27 pm
edavid wrote: July 29th, 2023, 3:31 pm
Luke wrote: July 29th, 2023, 7:57 am

Lol polygamy literally is the Fullness. You’re simply wrong. Until you repent of your opposition to that principle, the fullness will be kept from you. The same goes for the Church.

“Hear it, ye elders of Israel, and mark it down in your log books: the fulness of the gospel is the United Order and the order of Plural Marriage, and without these two principles, this gospel can never be full, and I much fear that when I am gone, this people will give up these two principles which we prize so highly; and if they do, this church cannot advance as God wishes it to advance.” (Brigham Young, April 1877, The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 5:3112)
Did you actually read through it, did you see it in the new light? Did you ask for a witness of these things?
God personally taught me everything I know about Celestial Plural Marriage. As for the precepts of men, I care very little.
Appreciate you sharing your convictions.

I invite you to seek a witness of God, undeniable, clear revelation, of Polygamy and take note of the pattern of how God teaches and reveals truths to His children vs how the god (lowercase g) of this world works to mimmick and deceive.

Know this, even the very elect will be deceived, D&C 132 is a perfect deception and distraction in the restoration, and it continues to promulgate the false traditions of the fathers, gross errors, enough that this error has kept the blessings of the fullness from the church as an organization, but not individually to those who seek the Lord's face, for His promises are to each individually, the Kingdom within, no temple interview needed.

Take the Holy Spirit as your guide or be deceived.

For those interested in seeing how the "god of this world" writes scriptures through the carnal natural man, and mimmicks truth closely enough so as to tickle the curiousity of the mind of the carnal natural man, read section 132 prayerfully. Read Jacob 2 prayerfull, and then go through this thread, asking the Lord to open your heart and mind to the truth, and ask him for maybe your first undeniable witness of the same.

A helpful guide video on D&C 132.
https://hemlockknots.com/who-wrote-dc-132/

Scriptures on Monogamy and Polygamy
https://hemlockknots.com/monogamy-polygamy-scriptures/

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tmac
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by tmac »

Little more than conflicting opinions. Who says it’s One-Size-Fits-All for everyone? Why can’t Luke focus on what the Lord tells him, and eDavid focus on what the Lord tells him, without thinking whatever they are receiving is some universal truth for everyone, or that what they are receiving even applies to anyone else?

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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by Thinker »

tmac wrote: July 30th, 2023, 8:31 am Little more than conflicting opinions. Who says it’s One-Size-Fits-All for everyone? Why can’t Luke focus on what the Lord tells him, and eDavid focus on what the Lord tells him, without thinking whatever they are receiving is some universal truth for everyone, or that what they are receiving even applies to anyone else?
Because this is 1 of the few places of gathering where free speech is allowed so that ideas can be chiseled at until all that is left is truth.

AND if we care for each other, & we see someone heading for something bad or they are not seeing everything… then it may prevent unnecessary extra suffering of them & or others like children, to let them know.

Eg.,
1) Luke has never even been married. How can he possibly have any idea about marriage to the 3rd power or whatever?
2) Luke ignores (or at least he’s never addressed it to my knowledge) the fact that “excess boys” have often been kicked out of lds polygamy groups.

(I’ve brought these up to him before. He’s welcome to chime in.)

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tmac
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by tmac »

Facts? What do you actually know about these things?

Luke may not have been married (yet), but have you actually experienced plural marriage? Do you know any polygamists on a first name basis? Do you actually know any excess “boys” that have been marginalized?

What about LDS young men who have marginalized themselves by failure to launch?

You may believe you have knowledge about these things, but what actual, applied wisdom do you have to offer? What do you really have to offer beyond a theoretical opinion — like most others?

edavid
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Re: Common Sense Prophecy: Polygamy will be renounced by the LDS Church

Post by edavid »

tmac wrote: August 5th, 2023, 5:59 am Facts? What do you actually know about these things?

Luke may not have been married (yet), but have you actually experienced plural marriage? Do you know any polygamists on a first name basis? Do you actually know any excess “boys” that have been marginalized?

What about LDS young men who have marginalized themselves by failure to launch?

You may believe you have knowledge about these things, but what actual, applied wisdom do you have to offer? What do you really have to offer beyond a theoretical opinion — like most others?
The same thing Joseph offered, an undeniable witness from God, which cannot be denited. not a feeling, not a warm fuzzy, a witness. That's it. Available to any and all who seek.

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