LDS Freedom Forum

Robin Hood wrote:I will say this.
If the church ever embraces gay marriage, or recognizes "married" gays as equal to heterosexual marrieds, or accepts practicing gays as members in good standing, I will be out the door as fast as my legs can carry me. And I won't look back.

samizdat wrote:Elder Oaks has always been against gay marriage. If you are trying to suggest that the October 2014 Conference talk that he gave about civility is a tacit approval of gay marriage then you are surely mistaken.

BenMcCrea wrote:Joseph Smith said:

No true angel from God will ever come to ordain any man, because they have once been sent to establish the priesthood by ordaining me thereunto;…the priesthood once being established on earth, with power to ordain others, no heavenly messenger will ever come to interfere with that power by ordaining any more…You may therefore know, from this time forward, that if any man comes to you professing to be ordained by an angel, he is either a liar or has been imposed upon in consequence of transgression by an angel of the devil for this priesthood shall never be taken away from this church. (Millenial Star, 20 Nov. 1846, p.139, underline added)

Brother Joseph observed to (Francis G. who claimed he had received an ordination by an Angel) Bishop that he knew he had lied before he confessed it; that his declarations were not only false in themselves, but they involved a false principle. An angel, said Joseph, may administer the word of the Lord unto men, and bring intelligence to them from heaven upon various subjects; but no true angel from God will ever come to ordain any man, because they have once been sent to establish the priesthood by ordaining me thereunto; and the priesthood being once established on earth with power to ordain others, no heavenly messenger will ever come to interfere with that power by ordaining any more. He referred to the angel that came to Cornelius and told Cornelius to send for Peter; but if there had been no Peter with keys and power to administer, the angel might have done it himself; but as there was, the angel would not interfere. Saul was directed to go to Ananias for instruction and to be administered to by him; but if there had been no Ananias with power and authority on the earth to administer in the name of Christ, the Lord might have done it himself. You may therefore know, from this time forward, that if any man comes to you professing to be ordained by angel, he is either a liar or has been imposed upon in consequence of transgression by an angel of the devil, for this priesthood shall never be taken away from this church.

This testimony was delivered in an upper room, in the south-west corner of the White Store and dwelling-house, formerly occupied by Whitney and Gilbert, situate on Kirtland Flats.

If men would regard the testimony of the servants of God who have laid down their lives for the cause, they would have little to fear of being misled; but when the spirit of apostasy takes possession of a man’s heart, he becomes completely blind to every true principle, and is filled with strife, debate, deceit, false accusation, and treachery. He cherishes no desire to convert and save the world, but is content to confine his operations to the church, which he slanders, defames, and, like a ravening wolf, tries to tear in pieces and destroy; and having no merit of his own to bring him into notice, he seeks to obtain notoriety by contention and debate, which the Lord declares are not of him but of the devil. Their hearts being a fountain of evil, they can speak nothing but evil; they, being disciples of the “accuser of our brethren,” can do nothing but accuse the brethren like their master whom they serve; they having a beam in their own eye, can see nothing but the mote in their brother’s eye; and well did the Saviour ask such characters, “how can ye, being evil, speak good things?“ They are like the filthy and indelicate bird that has no relish for sweet and wholesome meat, but likes to feast on tainted flesh and putrid carcasses. (Millennial Star, 20 Nov. 1846, 139, Elder Orson Hyde referencing a principle elucidated by Joseph Smith in the School of the Prophets. retrieved June, 2014 from: http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/compou" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... /973/rec/2 )

BenMcCrea wrote:It is a very apparent fact that we have traveled far and wide in the past 20 years. What the future will bring I do not know. But if we drift as far afield from fundamental things in the next 20 years, what will be left of the foundation laid by the Prophet Joseph Smith? It is easy for one who observes to see how the apostasy came about in the primitive church of Christ. Are we not traveling the same road? (Joseph Fielding Smith Journal, 28 December 1938)

BenMcCrea wrote:President Spencer W Kimball:

…when I review the performance of this people in comparison with what is expected, I am appalled and frightened. If we insist on spending all our time and resources building up for ourselves a worldly kingdom, that is exactly what we will inherit. In spite of our delight in defining ourselves as modern, and our tendency to think we possess a sophistication that no people in the past ever had–in spite of these things, we are, on the whole, an idolatrous people–a condition most repugnant to the Lord. (Ensign, June, 1976)

Original_Intent wrote:I'd just like to note that he didn't say it was "OK", he said that you would not lose your membership or your recommend for doing so.

jwharton wrote:

Original_Intent wrote:I'd just like to note that he didn't say it was "OK", he said that you would not lose your membership or your recommend for doing so.

How can a person answer the questions faithfully to assert their worthiness to enter a temple if this is what they are supporting?

People are totally forgetting that under the law homosexuality is considered punishable at the same level of severity as adultery.

It is a sin that causes spiritual death and so the carnal law affixes the punishment of being stoned to death. It is extremely serious sin.

This is the equivalent of saying people who openly support people's right to have "open marriages" meaning consenting wife swapping, orgies, swinging, etc. are all things a person can openly promote and privately participate in with no worries about church discipline.

People have every right to be aghast at such a position being taken.

Tony wrote:Jesus Christ's Church will never support iniquity. Hence, it will never support gay marriage, just like it will never support fornication.

BenMcCrea wrote:I don't think there will ever be a majority of Apostles, including the Senior Apostle, who will be in favor of same sex marriage.

Even if someone like Elder Christofferson, who's brother Tom is gay and married to his partner, was in favor of same sex marriage, you will always have a majority of men like Boyd K Packer, Russell M Nelson, Jeffrey R Holland, David A Bednar etc who will hold to the traditional view of marriage and tip the balance. I certainly hope so.

Lizzy60 wrote:

Tony wrote:Jesus Christ's Church will never support iniquity. Hence, it will never support gay marriage, just like it will never support fornication.

But now they won't discipline you if you support the grievous sin of homosexuality, and the abomination that is gay marriage.

But they will discipline you if you don't support THEM (the Top 15 PSRs)

samizdat wrote:

briznian wrote:

Muerte Rosa wrote:REALLY?

Yes. Really. You have not actually stated what you think his position is.

Elder Oaks has always been against gay marriage. If you are trying to suggest that the October 2014 Conference talk that he gave about civility is a tacit approval of gay marriage then you are surely mistaken.

Lizzy: that is going to happen, initially. Hopefully the Church takes the high road and doesn't accept gay marriage. The truth of the matter is that the Church is worldwide now and not just a Utah or even an American church.

Simon wrote:

jwharton wrote:

Original_Intent wrote:I'd just like to note that he didn't say it was "OK", he said that you would not lose your membership or your recommend for doing so.

How can a person answer the questions faithfully to assert their worthiness to enter a temple if this is what they are supporting?

People are totally forgetting that under the law homosexuality is considered punishable at the same level of severity as adultery.

It is a sin that causes spiritual death and so the carnal law affixes the punishment of being stoned to death. It is extremely serious sin.

This is the equivalent of saying people who openly support people's right to have "open marriages" meaning consenting wife swapping, orgies, swinging, etc. are all things a person can openly promote and privately participate in with no worries about church discipline.

People have every right to be aghast at such a position being taken.

But lets not forget here that sin is only sin when people know it is such... We all have the right to believe and to support whatever we feel is right... I dont say this is what you ment to say, but we cant just go ahead and stone all the people that have such tendencys, or stone those who have loved ones in their family that feel that way, and that dont condemn them to death..

I do not believe that homosexuals experience more spiritual death thn those that would like to throw the first stone.

I feel when the church has its revelations about it, and people believe it, that is fine... But, it is their truth, and though we may openly share our views, and stand in for them, it is not neccesarely other peoples truth... guesss we need to learn to respect that.

Tony wrote:Jesus Christ's Church will never support iniquity.
Hence, it will never support gay marriage, just like it will never support fornication.

AGStacker wrote:

BenMcCrea wrote:I don't think there will ever be a majority of Apostles, including the Senior Apostle, who will be in favor of same sex marriage.

Even if someone like Elder Christofferson, who's brother Tom is gay and married to his partner, was in favor of same sex marriage, you will always have a majority of men like Boyd K Packer, Russell M Nelson, Jeffrey R Holland, David A Bednar etc who will hold to the traditional view of marriage and tip the balance. I certainly hope so.

Yes but these men slowly pass away and younger men take their places who are influenced by a more liberal people. In the 70s or 80s Packer, I think, openly said gays, intellectuals and feminists were a great threat. I am paraphrasing there. Could you imagine Elder Christofferson saying that today?!

Lizzy60 wrote:

Tony wrote:Jesus Christ's Church will never support iniquity. Hence, it will never support gay marriage, just like it will never support fornication.

But now they won't discipline you if you support the grievous sin of homosexuality, and the abomination that is gay marriage.

But they will discipline you if you don't support THEM (the Top 15 PSRs)