Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

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Art Vandelay
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by Art Vandelay »

mudflap wrote: February 18th, 2020, 8:33 am (knocks on wood)

fairly insulated here in the south so far....all the pro-gay folks have simply gone inactive. And there are a few.
Honestly, its' not a big deal here in Utah either. Just because of the shear number of wards and stakes here there might a ward here and there with issues but none that I've seen. I'm not saying there aren't pro-gay people, there are and I'm related to some of them but they don't advertise it in church. I know because they complain that nobody advertises it in church. In fact, my now ex-sister-in-law and her leftist nut-job kids went inactive because the church isn't pro-gay and transgender enough. They live in the heart of the church, Salt Lake.

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mudflap
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by mudflap »

Art Vandelay wrote: February 18th, 2020, 9:34 am
mudflap wrote: February 18th, 2020, 8:33 am (knocks on wood)

fairly insulated here in the south so far....all the pro-gay folks have simply gone inactive. And there are a few.
Honestly, its' not a big deal here in Utah either. Just because of the shear number of wards and stakes here there might a ward here and there with issues but none that I've seen. I'm not saying there aren't pro-gay people, there are and I'm related to some of them but they don't advertise it in church. I know because they complain that nobody advertises it in church. In fact, my now ex-sister-in-law and her leftist nut-job kids went inactive because the church isn't pro-gay and transgender enough. They live in the heart of the church, Salt Lake.
Ok, well that's hopeful. But I had to laugh at this:
They live in the heart of the church, Salt Lake.
don't you mean, "the belly of the beast"? SLC isn't exactly a "conservative bastion" these days, is it?

My sister and brother live over on the west side in the "new" part of the valley, where "all is well"....

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Art Vandelay
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by Art Vandelay »

mudflap wrote: February 18th, 2020, 9:45 am
Art Vandelay wrote: February 18th, 2020, 9:34 am
mudflap wrote: February 18th, 2020, 8:33 am (knocks on wood)

fairly insulated here in the south so far....all the pro-gay folks have simply gone inactive. And there are a few.
Honestly, its' not a big deal here in Utah either. Just because of the shear number of wards and stakes here there might a ward here and there with issues but none that I've seen. I'm not saying there aren't pro-gay people, there are and I'm related to some of them but they don't advertise it in church. I know because they complain that nobody advertises it in church. In fact, my now ex-sister-in-law and her leftist nut-job kids went inactive because the church isn't pro-gay and transgender enough. They live in the heart of the church, Salt Lake.
Ok, well that's hopeful. But I had to laugh at this:
They live in the heart of the church, Salt Lake.
don't you mean, "the belly of the beast"? SLC isn't exactly a "conservative bastion" these days, is it?

My sister and brother live over on the west side in the "new" part of the valley, where "all is well"....
I was meaning Salt Lake County. They don't live in SLC but either way this fine ex sis-in-law and her woke kids didn't feel the church was pro-gay or pro-transgender so they left.

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marc
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by marc »

marc wrote: July 14th, 2015, 5:04 pm BYU. "13,000 youth coming together to celebrate the opening of a temple of God on the earth!! It doesn't get more inspiring than that!"

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Click the arrow above next to "marc wrote:" to see the relevant image. I sure sounded crazy for sharing some observations, didn't I?

Soooooo, how has this discussion aged? That pic was taken specifically to celebrate the opening of a temple. It was also taken during the Utah LGBT Pride Festival. What's BYU looking like nowadays? Oh, wait, I'll tell you. This is what is being taught in one class right now:
identity.jpg
identity.jpg (82.2 KiB) Viewed 870 times
More about the image: https://www.facebook.com/natalie.cline. ... Vb1ym4G4cl

That BYU rally happened seven years ago. I wonder what BYU will look like seven years from now.
Last edited by marc on December 1st, 2022, 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FoundMyEden
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by FoundMyEden »

samizdat wrote: March 18th, 2015, 10:59 am
Phoenixstar117 wrote:
"supporting organizations that promote opposition or positions in opposition to the church's."
The church's position is obvious. Legalize gay marriage, and in return, don't take away the church's right to practice it's religious liberties, sounds simple enough. Except, if I support a group which is against the legalization of gay marriage, does that put me in a position of opposition to the church?

If I belong to say https://www.nationformarriage.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or another non-profit orginization which advocates traditional marriage and family values, aren't I now in a position in opposition of the church? :-?
The Church has never come out in support of a governmental mandate supporting same sex marriage. It is realizing however that that is the current tide of the world and it is better just to be quiet about it and focus on keeping its freedoms of traditional marriage intact as a religion.

If you want to know why the Church is apparently silent on abortion, it is because of the same thing. Because the governmental system will NEVER reverse course on abortion as long as one third of the Senate is in favor of it.
They’re not silent on abortion. They support it. Just a few weeks ago the RS president repeated a quote from one of the leaders that said something about “necessary abortions”…
I wish I had the quote but I tuned out and I responded to her that no abortion is “needed”.

The church already crossed this line years ago.

endlessQuestions
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by endlessQuestions »

lemuel wrote: March 18th, 2015, 2:14 pm Aren't there any libertarians here who think folks should be able to contract for whatever they want?
Like the killing of another individual?

You might want to revisit what it means to be a libertarian.

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ransomme
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by ransomme »

endlessismyname wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:10 pm
lemuel wrote: March 18th, 2015, 2:14 pm Aren't there any libertarians here who think folks should be able to contract for whatever they want?
Like the killing of another individual?

You might want to revisit what it means to be a libertarian.
libertarians split on this issue just like everyone else. I suppose it comes down to how they define life. When they want to determine or recognize the formation as a person/individual.

Life is sacred. Can there be necessary abortions?

endlessQuestions
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by endlessQuestions »

ransomme wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:22 pm
endlessismyname wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:10 pm
lemuel wrote: March 18th, 2015, 2:14 pm Aren't there any libertarians here who think folks should be able to contract for whatever they want?
Like the killing of another individual?

You might want to revisit what it means to be a libertarian.
libertarians split on this issue just like everyone else. I suppose it comes down to how they define life. When they want to determine or recognize the formation as a person/individual.

Life is sacred. Can there be necessary abortions?
I mean your life.

Like, I just (hypothetically) contracted with the mob to murder you.

We all good, libertarian buddy?

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ransomme
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by ransomme »

endlessismyname wrote: December 1st, 2022, 7:49 pm
ransomme wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:22 pm
endlessismyname wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:10 pm
lemuel wrote: March 18th, 2015, 2:14 pm Aren't there any libertarians here who think folks should be able to contract for whatever they want?
Like the killing of another individual?

You might want to revisit what it means to be a libertarian.
libertarians split on this issue just like everyone else. I suppose it comes down to how they define life. When they want to determine or recognize the formation as a person/individual.

Life is sacred. Can there be necessary abortions?
I mean your life.

Like, I just (hypothetically) contracted with the mob to murder you.

We all good, libertarian buddy?
I don't get what you mean.

A libertarian would probably base their view on the non-aggression principle, so the murder that you proposed, in theory, violates that. No Bueno. Whereas different people, different libertarian views may demarcate the start of life at different points. Generally, I think that possibly the only two valid points would be, could be at conception or implantation into the womb.

Example: If one defined the start of life by the heartbeat, then they would be pro-abortion up to and until there is a heartbeat.
If one defined life at conception then the above example would be killing.

The only case for abortion IMO is one of self-defense, if the mother's life is in clear and present danger.

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lemuel
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by lemuel »

endlessismyname wrote: December 1st, 2022, 7:49 pm
ransomme wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:22 pm
endlessismyname wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:10 pm
lemuel wrote: March 18th, 2015, 2:14 pm Aren't there any libertarians here who think folks should be able to contract for whatever they want?
Like the killing of another individual?

You might want to revisit what it means to be a libertarian.
libertarians split on this issue just like everyone else. I suppose it comes down to how they define life. When they want to determine or recognize the formation as a person/individual.

Life is sacred. Can there be necessary abortions?
I mean your life.

Like, I just (hypothetically) contracted with the mob to murder you.

We all good, libertarian buddy?
Totally missing the point. The third party getting murdered didn't consent to being murdered.

FoundMyEden
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by FoundMyEden »

ransomme wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:22 pm
endlessismyname wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:10 pm
lemuel wrote: March 18th, 2015, 2:14 pm Aren't there any libertarians here who think folks should be able to contract for whatever they want?
Like the killing of another individual?

You might want to revisit what it means to be a libertarian.
Life is sacred. Can there be necessary abortions?
I agree, life is sacred. And the murder of an innocent life is never necessary…so no, abortions are never necessary.

FoundMyEden
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by FoundMyEden »

ransomme wrote: December 1st, 2022, 8:38 pm
endlessismyname wrote: December 1st, 2022, 7:49 pm
ransomme wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:22 pm
endlessismyname wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:10 pm

Like the killing of another individual?

You might want to revisit what it means to be a libertarian.
libertarians split on this issue just like everyone else. I suppose it comes down to how they define life. When they want to determine or recognize the formation as a person/individual.

Life is sacred. Can there be necessary abortions?
I mean your life.

Like, I just (hypothetically) contracted with the mob to murder you.

We all good, libertarian buddy?
I don't get what you mean.

A libertarian would probably base their view on the non-aggression principle, so the murder that you proposed, in theory, violates that. No Bueno. Whereas different people, different libertarian views may demarcate the start of life at different points. Generally, I think that possibly the only two valid points would be, could be at conception or implantation into the womb.

Example: If one defined the start of life by the heartbeat, then they would be pro-abortion up to and until there is a heartbeat.
If one defined life at conception then the above example would be killing.

The only case for abortion IMO is one of self-defense, if the mother's life is in clear and present danger.
How can you take a position of self defense against an innocent life? That makes no sense. The mother’s life being in danger is not the problem of the baby.

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ransomme
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by ransomme »

FoundMyEden wrote: December 15th, 2022, 9:46 am
ransomme wrote: December 1st, 2022, 8:38 pm
endlessismyname wrote: December 1st, 2022, 7:49 pm
ransomme wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:22 pm

libertarians split on this issue just like everyone else. I suppose it comes down to how they define life. When they want to determine or recognize the formation as a person/individual.

Life is sacred. Can there be necessary abortions?
I mean your life.

Like, I just (hypothetically) contracted with the mob to murder you.

We all good, libertarian buddy?
I don't get what you mean.

A libertarian would probably base their view on the non-aggression principle, so the murder that you proposed, in theory, violates that. No Bueno. Whereas different people, different libertarian views may demarcate the start of life at different points. Generally, I think that possibly the only two valid points would be, could be at conception or implantation into the womb.

Example: If one defined the start of life by the heartbeat, then they would be pro-abortion up to and until there is a heartbeat.
If one defined life at conception then the above example would be killing.

The only case for abortion IMO is one of self-defense, if the mother's life is in clear and present danger.
How can you take a position of self defense against an innocent life? That makes no sense. The mother’s life being in danger is not the problem of the baby.
It was a thought exercise.

In principle one can defend their life from any threat to their own life, whether or not the harm was intended.

Obviously, a baby can't intend harm, but in very rare instances the birthing process may threaten a mother's life.

So working to save the mother's life, is defending the mother's life.

spiritMan
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by spiritMan »

ransomme wrote: December 1st, 2022, 8:38 pm
endlessismyname wrote: December 1st, 2022, 7:49 pm
ransomme wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:22 pm
endlessismyname wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:10 pm

Like the killing of another individual?

You might want to revisit what it means to be a libertarian.
libertarians split on this issue just like everyone else. I suppose it comes down to how they define life. When they want to determine or recognize the formation as a person/individual.

Life is sacred. Can there be necessary abortions?
I mean your life.

Like, I just (hypothetically) contracted with the mob to murder you.

We all good, libertarian buddy?
Generally, I think that possibly the only two valid points would be, could be at conception or implantation into the womb.
This is a really interesting question and has some ethical implications.

If life is at conception then IVF has significant problems. The process is:
1) Collect many ~12-24 eggs.
2) Fertilize all the eggs, about 50% fertilize and make it to day 5+, leaving on anywhere from 4-9 embryos
3) Implant an embryo, with success rates varying based on many, many factors.

While there are tests that screen embryos at day 5 for viability, those tests have varying degrees of accuracy.

If life begins at conception (or cell division), then the current process leaves a tremendous amount of "left over" viable embryos. Those embryos are either discarded or kept frozen until used. Discarding embryos, simply means unfreezing them and they will die or stop cell division pretty quickly without a suitable environment.

If life begins at implantation in the womb then no changes are needed in IVF, additionally, anything that prevents an embryo from implanting would be birth control and not immoral. Anything that would remove an embryo after implantation would be immoral.

If life is at conception, then the moral question comes: what is the proper moral response for left over viable embryos?

4Joshua8
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by 4Joshua8 »

spiritMan wrote: December 15th, 2022, 11:09 am
ransomme wrote: December 1st, 2022, 8:38 pm
endlessismyname wrote: December 1st, 2022, 7:49 pm
ransomme wrote: December 1st, 2022, 6:22 pm

libertarians split on this issue just like everyone else. I suppose it comes down to how they define life. When they want to determine or recognize the formation as a person/individual.

Life is sacred. Can there be necessary abortions?
I mean your life.

Like, I just (hypothetically) contracted with the mob to murder you.

We all good, libertarian buddy?
Generally, I think that possibly the only two valid points would be, could be at conception or implantation into the womb.
This is a really interesting question and has some ethical implications.

If life is at conception then IVF has significant problems. The process is:
1) Collect many ~12-24 eggs.
2) Fertilize all the eggs, about 50% fertilize and make it to day 5+, leaving on anywhere from 4-9 embryos
3) Implant an embryo, with success rates varying based on many, many factors.

While there are tests that screen embryos at day 5 for viability, those tests have varying degrees of accuracy.

If life begins at conception (or cell division), then the current process leaves a tremendous amount of "left over" viable embryos. Those embryos are either discarded or kept frozen until used. Discarding embryos, simply means unfreezing them and they will die or stop cell division pretty quickly without a suitable environment.

If life begins at implantation in the womb then no changes are needed in IVF, additionally, anything that prevents an embryo from implanting would be birth control and not immoral. Anything that would remove an embryo after implantation would be immoral.

If life is at conception, then the moral question comes: what is the proper moral response for left over viable embryos?
We did IVF twice and wrestled with the question. We believe life begins at conception, so we used all our embryos. Both times it started as twins, but both times one twin died. We feel at peace with our decision. We knew we would never feel real peace had we not given each baby a chance.

Generic User
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by Generic User »

Wow this thread did not age well for those saying the church would never support a gay marriage bill.
They supported it, celebrated it, and moved the goal posts yet again.

Not a good trend line here.

FoundMyEden
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by FoundMyEden »

ransomme wrote: December 15th, 2022, 10:43 am
FoundMyEden wrote: December 15th, 2022, 9:46 am
ransomme wrote: December 1st, 2022, 8:38 pm
endlessismyname wrote: December 1st, 2022, 7:49 pm

I mean your life.

Like, I just (hypothetically) contracted with the mob to murder you.

We all good, libertarian buddy?
I don't get what you mean.

A libertarian would probably base their view on the non-aggression principle, so the murder that you proposed, in theory, violates that. No Bueno. Whereas different people, different libertarian views may demarcate the start of life at different points. Generally, I think that possibly the only two valid points would be, could be at conception or implantation into the womb.

Example: If one defined the start of life by the heartbeat, then they would be pro-abortion up to and until there is a heartbeat.
If one defined life at conception then the above example would be killing.

The only case for abortion IMO is one of self-defense, if the mother's life is in clear and present danger.
How can you take a position of self defense against an innocent life? That makes no sense. The mother’s life being in danger is not the problem of the baby.
It was a thought exercise.

In principle one can defend their life from any threat to their own life, whether or not the harm was intended.

Obviously, a baby can't intend harm, but in very rare instances the birthing process may threaten a mother's life.

So working to save the mother's life, is defending the mother's life.
So in principle as you stated, If I as the mother can defend my own life because my life would be threatened by my child if they threatened my life unbeknownst to them… I have the right to kill them, no? So, if I am in a car accident and the car is under water and water is leaking in, my child is a passenger that is in the way of me getting out of the water before we both drown…can I hold their head under the water to drown them knowing they will die so I can climb over them, get out, and survive? My life would be in clear and present danger? Does this make abortion any clearer to those that make an an excuse for it being “acceptable”?

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Subcomandante
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by Subcomandante »

Positive ident of byu professor that said Jesus was androgynous... Info posted by a Nat. CLINE on FB.

https://fhssfaculty.byu.edu/directory/ashley-fraser

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ransomme
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by ransomme »

FoundMyEden wrote: December 15th, 2022, 9:20 pm
ransomme wrote: December 15th, 2022, 10:43 am
FoundMyEden wrote: December 15th, 2022, 9:46 am
ransomme wrote: December 1st, 2022, 8:38 pm
I don't get what you mean.

A libertarian would probably base their view on the non-aggression principle, so the murder that you proposed, in theory, violates that. No Bueno. Whereas different people, different libertarian views may demarcate the start of life at different points. Generally, I think that possibly the only two valid points would be, could be at conception or implantation into the womb.

Example: If one defined the start of life by the heartbeat, then they would be pro-abortion up to and until there is a heartbeat.
If one defined life at conception then the above example would be killing.

The only case for abortion IMO is one of self-defense, if the mother's life is in clear and present danger.
How can you take a position of self defense against an innocent life? That makes no sense. The mother’s life being in danger is not the problem of the baby.
It was a thought exercise.

In principle one can defend their life from any threat to their own life, whether or not the harm was intended.

Obviously, a baby can't intend harm, but in very rare instances the birthing process may threaten a mother's life.

So working to save the mother's life, is defending the mother's life.
So in principle as you stated, If I as the mother can defend my own life because my life would be threatened by my child if they threatened my life unbeknownst to them… I have the right to kill them, no? So, if I am in a car accident and the car is under water and water is leaking in, my child is a passenger that is in the way of me getting out of the water before we both drown…can I hold their head under the water to drown them knowing they will die so I can climb over them, get out, and survive? My life would be in clear and present danger? Does this make abortion any clearer to those that make an an excuse for it being “acceptable”?
touché

KittyRose
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by KittyRose »

Phoenixstar117 wrote: March 18th, 2015, 10:54 am
"supporting organizations that promote opposition or positions in opposition to the church's."
The church's position is obvious. Legalize gay marriage, and in return, don't take away the church's right to practice it's religious liberties, sounds simple enough. Except, if I support a group which is against the legalization of gay marriage, does that put me in a position of opposition to the church?

If I belong to say https://www.nationformarriage.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or another non-profit orginization which advocates traditional marriage and family values, aren't I now in a position in opposition of the church? :-?
I'm confused by that quote as well. "...supporting organizations that promote opposition or positions of opposition to the church's..." Isn't that what is being done when the church invests $$ in companies who openly promote things like abortion, woke culture, antichristian rhetoric, etc.? Just looking at their investment portfolio, several large corporate names leap off the screen who are known promotors of "opposing positions" to the what we're taught as LDS Christians. Is the $$ made enough justification for looking the other way, as members' faithfully given tithes and offerings are poured into these companies' coffers, while they promote opposing views and agendas? Asking for a friend...

KittyRose
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by KittyRose »

Robin Hood wrote: March 18th, 2015, 11:29 am Have to say I am very disappointed in the comments of Elder Christopherson.
We need leaders who will call a spade a spade no matter what the issue.
If gay marriage is wrong, then surely it is wrong to believe it isn't.

I am also alarmed at the apparent "evolving" understanding of homosexuality by the brethren, or at least some of them.
It seems we are witnessing the same process which has occurred in the RLDS Church.
I had an interesting text conversation with my brother regarding this. He's a TBM who totally sustains ALL things church, and he asserts that, like with blacks in the priesthood/temple, anything can be changed with "revelation." I asked him if he thinks there will be revelation given, like with the JST of the Bible, that changes the wording in the actual scriptures such that homosexual acts and/or fornication will no longer read as being an abomination or sinful. That's the only way I can see it being justified, because the scriptures are pretty darn clear on the subject. And if you believe they're the word of God, it's hard to fathom that something that was once considered an excommunicate-able offense could suddenly be permitted. I actually can't imagine them going THAT far, but it does make one wonder...and keep an eye open. That happens, I'm outta here.

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dreamtheater76
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by dreamtheater76 »

I was always taught you cannot serve 2 masters or that you can’t have it both ways.
Well unless if you are a pandering politician who talks out of both sides of his mouth and kisses both butt cheeks.
People have their agency. I still feel the same way about homosexuality that President Kimball did. That was my childhood. I’m not changing. This is not just the leaders but countless members. I see rainbow flags all over my neighborhood and everyone else’s. But not when I go out of state. All is not well in Zion.

onefour1
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by onefour1 »

It's ok to support gay marriage but we won't allow it in our temples? God calls it an abomination but its ok to support it? Promotion of abominations are ok? It's a totally illogical saying. The scriptures tell us it is reprobate. It is an unholy and impure practice.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by Robin Hood »

ransomme wrote: December 15th, 2022, 10:43 am

Obviously, a baby can't intend harm, but in very rare instances the birthing process may threaten a mother's life.
Not true.
Women can die in childbirth, but that is a result of an emergency developing during labour. This cannot be forseen several months in advance.

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ransomme
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Re: Apostle says it's okay to support gay marriage

Post by ransomme »

Robin Hood wrote: December 17th, 2022, 12:13 pm
ransomme wrote: December 15th, 2022, 10:43 am

Obviously, a baby can't intend harm, but in very rare instances the birthing process may threaten a mother's life.
Not true.
Women can die in childbirth, but that is a result of an emergency developing during labour. This cannot be forseen several months in advance.
I think we are in agreement.

Baby doesn't intend to kill mother, but it's possible

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