Angels and Demons

[Phoenixstar117]

I'm making this post in response to something which broke out in another thread and I felt it deserved it's own OP. Please don't take my statements here as a reflection of me taking sides in the specific argument of that post, or taking sides with any one individual.

The following concerns are valid I believe.

Let's face the problem here at LDS-Freedom Forum, shall we?

This LDS-FF is now divided into two distinct forums --

1 This general section which the public can read, which is supposed to be (as summarized by Marc) "Snuffer-free" and "pro-LDS." But its not. (See above statements by jbalm for example.) The public can read, but cannot post unless registered.

2. The HG section which is evidently for those sympathetic to Snuffer's teachings and can only be SEEN by the chosen ones. I was for a long time part of this section until it went the way it did, and I was kicked off without so much as telling me that this had occurred. When I found out, BrianM explained that I was not sympathetic to Denver Snuffer's teachings or something like that. Actually, its not very clear to me, why I was kicked out.

The problem is, jbalm and other Snuffer groupies feel quite free to come here and make anti-brethren statements without substantiation, as we see above.

We can expect threads attacking the LDS Church to continue, as we see. Yet we cannot see the statements they make on the HG portion of the forum behind our backs and in SECRET.

I'm not comfortable with these pot-shots against me and the brethren that are recurring so often from those of the "hidden" or "secret" portion of the forum.

I think that the HG section should be readable by ALL so that nothing is done in secret and behind our backs -- even if some (like me) are not allowed to post there. Let's have transparency and open-ness, shall we?

PS -- I fully expect that this complaint will be deleted by the administrators here, or the thread "locked" -- we'll see. There is not much pro-LDS freedom here anymore IMO, and I believe it is because of the secret combined group which functions here behind closed doors. They venture out occasionally to take pot-shots but spend much of their time (according to past observations) in their wilderness.

I don't wish to be part of this - such as accusing the Church of misusing tithing funds as we see above, with NO references, nothing solid or substantive. And then accusing me, you see?

After SEVEN YEARS or so of posting, I bid you farewell.
I have other things to do in the short peaceful time remaining.

I find these concerns valid, being a member of the aforementioned privite forum, I am concerned that we lose our way, being darkened in our minds because we are not open to examination.

One of the bigger concerns among members of the Passing the Heavenly gift forum(and perhaps even members of the general forum) is transparency of church history. I will not deny that this has been an issue for me in the past. But do we not do the same thing? Should we not be transparent as well?

At the very least, should the Passing the Heavenly Gift section of the forum be open to the viewing of all registered members? This transparency would at the very least engender better understanding. The section would still be closed to posting except those who are members of that area.

This action would continue to protect those members with the original intent of the privite area, to discuss the teachings of Denver Snuffer without having to worry about such posts being filled with venom, disagreement or ridicule. It would also allow members, such as BroJones to know what it is we do say. At the very least giving transparency to what we say.

Something which has greatly bothered me recently was that I was so critical of the church myself. I have been thinking on it the past weeks and have recently come to realize and ask myself, "Okay, so there are problems in the church. So what? Am I going to tear it down, or build it up?"

If we are exposing these things about the church, then I believe it important to cite sources, and if not, then state you don't have a source or then don't make a claim. People won't take you seriously if you can't justify a charge. Even if we show sources and find something true which is defamatory to the church, people are going to act defensivly to that. Would I not do the same were I defending Christ? Am I as willing to stand up for what I believe in, just as those Christians who are currently, and even now being killed in the Middle-East, because they defend Christ and their testimony in his word? Regardless of truth, it doesn't give us the right to attack the character of another person. Such "ad hominem" attacks only expose your own weakness of character.

It is then that I realize, understanding and transparency are of upmost importance. Because the church hasn't been transparent on all of it's issues in the past, it has lost a great deal of trust of it's members. Those members understandable will act with hurt and defense, and many times, lash back in anger at the church. I'm trying to understand both sides here.
It is the sad case that we as humans become so very defensive in these instances. It is not restricted to one individual, but to all those who live in the human condition(the fall).

Christ's teaching on the mount and at Bountiful however tell us differently:

Matthew 5
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

and

3 Ne. 18
22 And behold, ye shall meet together oft; and ye shall not forbid any man from coming unto you when ye shall meet together, but suffer them that they may come unto you and forbid them not;

23 But ye shall pray for them, and shall not cast them out; and if it so be that they come unto you oft ye shall pray for them unto the Father, in my name.

24 Therefore, hold up your light that it may shine unto the world. Behold I am the light which ye shall hold up—that which ye have seen me do. Behold ye see that I have prayed unto the Father, and ye all have witnessed.

25 And ye see that I have commanded that none of you should go away, but rather have commanded that ye should come unto me, that ye might feel and see; even so shall ye do unto the world; and whosoever breaketh this commandment suffereth himself to be led into temptation.

It is very clear to me that our works must be in the light.

Should BroJones leave the forum, I would find that tragic. Whether or not he would make good on his statement above is yet to be seen. However, regardless of my different opinion to his, he has been a contributor of so much here. He has displayed great charity by his aid in setting up good causes for our support. He has supplied information which is useful to know.

Most of my remarks are directed to those who like me, are members of the private forum, Passing the Heavenly Gift. Take my words and do what you will. Writing is such a poor medium to express the feelings of my heart. Both my sorrow, and my joy. I cannot express it in writing effectivly.

Shall we be called all manner of -ites? or shall we all become "of one heart and one mind"?

[gclayjr]

Bro Jones was trashed and disciplined on this forum? I thought he was the elder statesman or Godfather on this forum and everybody treated him deferentially. I also thought he always was careful and measured in all of his comments, and often brought sanity to some topics that got out of hand. Is this how far the LDSFF has come?

I didn't see his post above, because I rarely go into the non-public area of this forum. The food fights in the general discussions area are bad enough.

By the way, I endorse 100% what you quoted from him above.

Regards,

George Clay

[Phoenixstar117]

Bro Jones was trashed and disciplined on this forum? I thought he was the elder statesman or Godfather on this forum and everybody treated him deferentially. I also thought he always was careful and measured in all of his comments, and often brought sanity to some topics that got out of hand. Is this how far the LDSFF has come?

I didn't see his post above, because I rarely go into the non-public area of this forum. The food fights in the general discussions area are bad enough.

By the way, I endorse 100% what you quoted from him above.

Regards,

George Clay

His comment from above is from thread: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=37792" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; public

[Desert Roses]

Thank you, Phoenix. I, too, agree with what Bro. Jones stated--and I have the utmost respect and admiration for him, his scholarship, and his approach to truth. He is right--those accusing the church of failing to be transparent are themselves guilty of the same thing here. I can't say I'm surprised; I have felt for a while now that LDS "Freedom Forum" is a misnomer.

[Thinker]

Phoenix,
I like how you acknowledged "ugly" facts about the church - and what to do - destroy or build up?
Since remodeling may be unrealistic, I think it's good to simply acknowledge multiple points of view - that the church has a lot of good and some bad, and to appreciate and apply the good and avoid the bad. Jesus often pointed out the bad and hypocrisy of religious leaders, and I do think there are times to do that, but he focused primarily on loving others and doing good, and we'd do well in doing likewise.

P.S. I've never gone into the private subforum heavenly gift or whatever.
I don't like exclusionary behavior - so I don't support them.

P.S.S. Why the name "angels and demons"? I thought this was going to be about spiritual energies, which might be a little more interesting.


Overall - I'd like to again thank Brian and whoever else helps out behind the scenes in providing this opportunity of freedom of speech.
My experience has been that such freedom is generally honored, and only when personal attacks or repeated or serious rule violations are made, have there been warnings or other moderation.

[Phoenixstar117]

Thank you, Phoenix. I, too, agree with what Bro. Jones stated--and I have the utmost respect and admiration for him, his scholarship, and his approach to truth. He is right--those accusing the church of failing to be transparent are themselves guilty of the same thing here. I can't say I'm surprised; I have felt for a while now that LDS "Freedom Forum" is a misnomer.

Now, I will put out, that I don't know for what reason BroJones was restricted from accessing the Passing the Heavenly Gift section other than the statement made above. As far as I know, anyone can have access to the forum who prove themselves to be non-contentious while posting in that area. The rules for that specific forum are made clear in a sticky at the top of it.

I do agree with those rules 100%. It is an area for people to be able to discuss the writings of Denver Snuffer and to compare scriptures, what we learn, organize, etc. without recieving criticizm for such posts. In all honesty, it's because we hold a different viewpoint and wish to discuss it without contention.

But broJones brings up the good point, that in the end, we just bring a lot of contention to the other areas of the forum, and also because of the lack of transparency of the restricted section, it is assumed that a lot of the same criticizm goes on in the Passing the Heavenly Gift section.

God forbid I'm making this another thread about Denver. If we want debate about him, it can be done in another thread. But I'm here making a point that, there is a purpose to having that forum restricted as far as posting is concerned. In order to alleviate further contention, I just 2nd what BroJones is saying as far as making it public to view, but not to post, which will continue to maintain that protection.

Also it is a call out to others who participate in the Heavenly Gift section to be more curtious.

[Phoenixstar117]

Phoenix,
I like how you acknowledged "ugly" facts about the church - and what to do - destroy or build up?
Since remodeling may be unrealistic, I think it's good to simply acknowledge multiple points of view - that the church has a lot of good and some bad, and to appreciate and apply the good and avoid the bad. Jesus often pointed out the bad and hypocrisy of religious leaders, and I do think there are times to do that, but he focused primarily on loving others and doing good, and we'd do well in doing likewise.

P.S. I've never gone into the private subforum heavenly gift or whatever.
I don't like exclusionary behavior - so I don't support them.

P.S.S. Why the name "angels and demons"? I thought this was going to be about spiritual energies, which might be a little more interesting.


Overall - I'd like to again thank Brian and whoever else helps out behind the scenes in providing this opportunity of freedom of speech.
My experience has been that such freedom is generally honored, and only when personal attacks or repeated or serious rule violations are made, have there been warnings or other moderation.

I enjoy the subforum myself, because I can bounce around some ideas with what I'm studying without being criticized. Mostly though, I do that more in a Facebook group I belong to.

The name Angels and Demons? From the book/movie by the same name. I thought it fit in the context.

[Rose Garden]

The difficulties you have addressed have been debated again and again. I myself do not like forcefully excluding people. However, despite my personal preferences, the members of the Heavenly Gift area have a problem that is solved by their having a special space set aside. They themselves struggle with having their comments criticized. They are not exaggerating when they say they have been called names in this outer area of the forum.

When the area was first begun, the primary moderator compared it to his living room. He said that he wanted to welcome people in, but if they were causing too many issues, they would be booted out.

I understand this analogy. Most of us like to go out and meet friends, spend time in different places out in the world. Most of us are also obligated to go out and work, go shopping, or go out for various other necessary errands. But most of us also need a private place to go to find rest from the pressures of the world, even if we like interacting with it. We need a place where the people around us think like us and love and accept us, even when we fart and scratch our crotches. We call these places "home."

Most of us would agree that it would not be wise to insist that everyone make their homes public property. If we insist that the Heavenly Gift area be more open, then those there looking for refuge will go elsewhere to find the safe space that they need. We can't get around that.

I am terribly sorry that Bro. Jones felt attacked and was kicked out of the Heavenly Gift area. I haven't read the other thread and don't know what was said. I am certain that whatever negative sentiments were expressed against him are not commonly held. I appreciate his views and have over the years that he and I have both been a member.

Rather than making the Heavenly Gift area more open, I would suggest revisiting an idea someone put out some time ago. It would certainly be fair to have a "TBM" area for those who wanted to discuss the church without feeling like their opinions were being attacked. Then we could all have our living rooms in which we feel comfortable and we might not be so concerned about the battle going on in these outer areas.

Honestly, you can't get around the fact that as much as people complain about it, we still keep coming here to battle. There is no other place quite like this forum.

[theBruceGuy]

Thank you, Phoenix. I, too, agree with what Bro. Jones stated--and I have the utmost respect and admiration for him, his scholarship, and his approach to truth. He is right--those accusing the church of failing to be transparent are themselves guilty of the same thing here. I can't say I'm surprised; I have felt for a while now that LDS "Freedom Forum" is a misnomer.

Now, I will put out, that I don't know for what reason BroJones was restricted from accessing the Passing the Heavenly Gift section other than the statement made above. As far as I know, anyone can have access to the forum who prove themselves to be non-contentious while posting in that area. The rules for that specific forum are made clear in a sticky at the top of it.
I do agree with those rules 100%. It is an area for people to be able to discuss the writings of Denver Snuffer and to compare scriptures, what we learn, organize, etc. without recieving criticizm for such posts. In all honesty, it's because we hold a different viewpoint and wish to discuss it without contention. This is correct. Anyone can apply for access. You do not need to believe in the teachings put forward by DS, Rock Waterman, Max Skousen etc, but must allow others to state or discuss their beliefs without contention

But broJones brings up the good point, that in the end, we just bring a lot of contention to the other areas of the forum How does not having contention in the HG area bring contention to others? I believe the contention in the General area is the contention we are trying to keep out (Believe my way or you are Apostate and evil) The double standards there are normally being applied by the TBMers aching to show their loyalty and bring repentance to those who do not believe exactly as they think we should, and also because of the lack of transparency of the restricted section, it is assumed that a lot of the same criticizm goes on in the Passing the Heavenly Gift section. I was always taught that to assume made an @#$ out of you and me. Many of the TBm representatives show that in their posts

God forbid I'm making this another thread about Denver. If we want debate about him, it can be done in another thread. But I'm here making a point that, there is a purpose to having that forum restricted as far as posting is concerned. In order to alleviate further contention, I just 2nd what BroJones is saying as far as making it public to view, but not to post, which will continue to maintain that protection. It would not reduce the contention, but increase it. One of the rules for using the HG area is that posts cannot be copied. I can guarantee that those with contentious natures, thee are few, would instantly copy posts to the General forum or elsewhere and cause challenges with the information. There are witch hunts going on and people feel safe to post their beliefs in the HG area in the knowledge that it is private and relatively safe, if their posts were posed outside in the general area they could be subject to unwarranted discipline

Also it is a call out to others who participate in the Heavenly Gift section to be more courteous. One of the agreements made in gaining access to the HG area is that we have to be respectful throughout the forum. Access can be lost for bad behavior elsewhere.

I like to look at this situation as someone having started a Christian site to discuss Christian beliefs. Some LDS people begin posting their understanding of Christ and his gospel and are pilloried, so the webmaster makes a separate area for them. They are happy, contributing where they can on the main board and keeping the contentious stuff to themselves. However the "Christians" on the main board continue to make detrimental comments and when responses are made scream "I thought this was a Christian forum". They also seek admission to the restricted area and cause chaos each time they come in.

They do not see it is they who are the challenge, they who do not follow the ways of Christ. Contention fills their hearts and in their attempts to protect the Savior, they serve Satan.

I love Brother Jones, but he has disparaged this forum in postings in other forums. He has criticized the moderators and made public, private issues. I was always taught, "Moaning go, never moaning stay" If Dr. Jones is unhappy, he should leave, on the other hand, if he wishes to stay, then he should stop moaning. The choice is his.

As for opening the contents of the HG area, I do not see this happening. Brian would have to give notice so that many people could remove their posts to protect their privacy. Many would no longer post there, indeed many no longer do, and it would become a desolate wasteland of information instead of the Gem it is now.

[inho]

Snuffer groupies feel quite free to come here and make anti-brethren statements without substantiation

I feel a bit like Brother Jones. Those who get access to Heavenly Gift area promise to be respectful to the beliefs of others. Somehow it seems that this is interpreted only as we "brethrenites" should be respectful for non-mainstream believers. But it goes the other way too.

[Phoenixstar117]

But most of us also need a private place to go to find rest from the pressures of the world, even if we like interacting with it. We need a place where the people around us think like us and love and accept us, even when we fart and scratch our crotches. We call these places "home." I'm agreed with that, and it is a good analogy
I am terribly sorry that Bro. Jones felt attacked and was kicked out of the Heavenly Gift area. I haven't read the other thread and don't know what was said. I am certain that whatever negative sentiments were expressed against him are not commonly held. I appreciate his views and have over the years that he and I have both been a member.Thanks

Honestly, you can't get around the fact that as much as people complain about it, we still keep coming here to battle. There is no other place quite like this forum.Amen haha.

I find myself in the sad position of being a pleaser. I really want everyone to be happy, but unlike the government, don't want to have to enforce or regulate anything. If only we were angels, we wouldn't have need for regulations such as this O:-)

[Phoenixstar117]

I like to look at this situation as someone having started a Christian site to discuss Christian beliefs. Some LDS people begin posting their understanding of Christ and his gospel and are pilloried, so the webmaster makes a separate area for them. They are happy, contributing where they can on the main board and keeping the contentious stuff to themselves. However the "Christians" on the main board continue to make detrimental comments and when responses are made scream "I thought this was a Christian forum". They also seek admission to the restricted area and cause chaos each time they come in.

They do not see it is they who are the challenge, they who do not follow the ways of Christ. Contention fills their hearts and in their attempts to protect the Savior, they serve Satan.

I love Brother Jones, but he has disparaged this forum in postings in other forums. He has criticized the moderators and made public, private issues. I was always taught, "Moaning go, never moaning stay" If Dr. Jones is unhappy, he should leave, on the other hand, if he wishes to stay, then he should stop moaning. The choice is his.

As for opening the contents of the HG area, I do not see this happening. Brian would have to give notice so that many people could remove their posts to protect their privacy. Many would no longer post there, indeed many no longer do, and it would become a desolate wasteland of information instead of the Gem it is now.

Thanks for the comments. I am aware of the concerns that some people have about public/private issues. I guess in my own mind, I don't even post something to the internet, ever, unless I'm willing for it to be scrutinized most publically. I realize though that not everyone feels the same as me.

I suppose that in posting this, I don't really expect there to be an actual change in the way the forum is run. More I hope that people by talking about these things, we can perhaps develop more sensitivity for other people.

I like how Joseph Smith put it:

“How vain and trifling have been our spirits, our conferences, our councils, our meetings, our private as well as public conversations — too low, too mean, too vulgar, too condescending for the dignified characters of the called and chosen of God . . !”

[Thomas]

For one thing Jbalm is not into Snuffer at all.

It seems Bro Jones has not read the forum rules concerning the Approaching the Heavenly gift sub forum.

He has been in clear violation of them for some time.

[Rose Garden]

But most of us also need a private place to go to find rest from the pressures of the world, even if we like interacting with it. We need a place where the people around us think like us and love and accept us, even when we fart and scratch our crotches. We call these places "home." I'm agreed with that, and it is a good analogy
I am terribly sorry that Bro. Jones felt attacked and was kicked out of the Heavenly Gift area. I haven't read the other thread and don't know what was said. I am certain that whatever negative sentiments were expressed against him are not commonly held. I appreciate his views and have over the years that he and I have both been a member.Thanks

Honestly, you can't get around the fact that as much as people complain about it, we still keep coming here to battle. There is no other place quite like this forum.Amen haha.

I find myself in the sad position of being a pleaser. I really want everyone to be happy, but unlike the government, don't want to have to enforce or regulate anything. If only we were angels, we wouldn't have need for regulations such as this O:-)

I am the same way, but have had to acknowledge over the years that you simply can't make everyone happy. You can only do your best to give them what they need and leave it up to them to choose what they will do with it.

You are right that if we were better people, we wouldn't need regulations like that. Like you quoted initially, if there were no more -ites among us, we wouldn't have the issues we do. Although we got problems here on the forum, I do believe we are working in that direction. I honestly think this forum attracts those who are inclined to be more open-minded and are at least heading in the right direction. Without the difficulties, we will never learn to rise up and become better.

[joseph tam]

I think that BroJones was right, This Forum was once a place where Mormons would get together and talk about things that matter, With all the stuff i've seen I don't think its that way any more.

[theBruceGuy]

I think that BroJones was right, This Forum was once a place where Mormons would get together and talk about things that matter, With all the stuff i've seen I don't think its that way any more.

As you joined in September 2014, you evidently offer a great insight into how this forum has changed. #-o

[Phoenixstar117]

I think that BroJones was right, This Forum was once a place where Mormons would get together and talk about things that matter, With all the stuff i've seen I don't think its that way any more.

I have no opinion on this. I also have not been here long enough to even say.

[Desert Roses]

I think that BroJones was right, This Forum was once a place where Mormons would get together and talk about things that matter, With all the stuff i've seen I don't think its that way any more.

As you joined in September 2014, you evidently offer a great insight into how this forum has changed. #-o

Well, as a relatively newcomer, let me ask: LDS--to me that suggests associated with or intended for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, often shortened to LDS or nicknamed "Mormon". If that is not the meaning of LDS in the "LDS Freedom Forum" what is it exactly? One comment suggests a "Christian" forum, but the name says otherwise.

"Freedom" meaning without restriction or limits? Then why are those who believe and follow an excommunicant of the COJCLDS given a forum that is by its nature and rules free from criticism or argument, while those of us believing and full-faith members of the COJCLDS subjected to comment, argument, and criticism of our faith, our religion, and our discussion of those beliefs? That seems like a huge double standard. This thread has convinced me that the name of the forum is highly inaccurate at best, and a deceptive game at worst. (Assuming this post isn't deleted or I'm not banned for pointing out the discrepancy)

[Rose Garden]

Back when I joined, it was focused mainly on politics. That's the freedom part. It is primarily for LDS church members but has always been open to anyone willing to be respectful to the church. As things progressed, the many of the long-standing members here became good friends and many began to question the mainstream views they had taken for granted as truth. They found that their new views were a source of contention on the forum which is why the private forum was formed.

I am certain that if enough members requested a private forum for those who wanted to keep things more mainstream LDS, Brian would do it. He has always done his best to accommodate the members needs.

The name of the forum was never intended to be deceptive. At its inception, it was very much an LDS freedom forum. But it has grown and changed to meet people's needs. And to repeat myself, we are all still here. No one has forced anyone to log on and participate here. It is still very much free.

[TannerG]

I wasn't aware BroJones got kicked out. That makes me sad. I always felt like he was very civil, even when he disagreed. I don't think it's a good idea to make the HG area public for everyone to post. I think that would cause the contention that the HG Area was created to prevent.

[theBruceGuy]

I wasn't aware BroJones got kicked out. That makes me sad. I always felt like he was very civil, even when he disagreed. I don't think it's a good idea to make the HG area public for everyone to post. I think that would cause the contention that the HG Area was created to prevent.

As I understand it, he wasn't kicked out. He was prevented from access to the ATHG forum as he was making postings there in clear violation of the rules in that area. He chose to break those rules and then when called on it, left LDSFF.

He also posted some nasty comments about the forum in another blog.

I hope he realises what he is missing and comes back. The choice is his.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Everyone needs to reread the rules they agreed to by being members of this forum, and quit name calling and threats and reports to the church and slander and being so bitter when the rules are enforced.

I've said this a hundred times, and I've said it for years: this is Brian's house; his web site that he pays for with his own money unless somebody is nice enough to donate, and maintains with his own time. All of the moderators are volunteer moderators and they agree to enforce the rules of Brian's house the way he asks us to. That means on occasion, we have to moderate our own friends. I even kicked a member of my own family out of the heavenly gift area because that person was totally violating the rules for that area.

This is Brian's house. If you act like a jerk in his house, he might ask you to leave. It's not rocket science. this is not an official organization, nobody pays (or gets paid) to be here, and for the record, the heavenly gift area is not an official part of LDSFF. It's a separate area that Brian has allowed (kind of like somebody parking their car on your property for a while), so that people can have a comfortable place to discuss these things that they're exploring without having to deal with contention and crap. People discuss their private spiritual struggles there and it's not a public forum. If somebody goes in there and ridicules and name calls and criticizes and trashes their beliefs, it's no longer a private safe place for people to discuss those things. I'm really not sure why it's so difficult to understand. If I went into all of your homes and called your kids a bunch of names and told you what idiots you are and trashed your house and mocked you, I'm sure you'd ask me to leave, right?

As far as whether or not denver can be discussed outside of the heavenly gift area, yes of course he can be discussed. The things he purports can be discussed. If we were all grown ups, those discussions might actually be productive if we were seeking to understand instead of just being defensive and combative. But name calling, trolling, baiting, and being a jerk, are against the rules in ANY part of this forum.

Like I said, everybody needs to take a minute and go reread the rules that they all agreed to, and that they are all complaining about when they get in trouble for violating them.

[AI2.0]

Phoenixstar; I made the decision not to post on this board any longer, but I decided that your thoughtful comments and sincere concern about what is happening here deserved a response, since I have similar concerns to what Bro. Jones voiced in the post you cited.

As Desertroses said, this board has changed a lot in the past year and a half that I've been reading (I did not register and post until months later) and I agree with her, it seems like a misnomer, lately I've found mostly criticism of the church and hostility directed towards those of us who love the LDS church, it's leaders and it's teachings. It has become grueling to feel that I have to defend my faith and I'm tired of it(especially since I seem to be defending it to other LDS or ex-LDS) and this isn't what I expected when I registered--I initially joined this board because I thought it would be a nice place to enjoy discussions with other active, believing LDS. I didn't expect we'd all be at the same level of faithfulness, but I was not prepared for the level of hostility towards those of us who are labeled 'TBM'. There is no tolerance for people like me; a 'brethrenite' as we are called here. I'm also tired of feeling that I must walk on eggshells because 'tolerance' is only expected from TBM's and if we are not 'tolerant' we are reminded to 'read the rules'--which I've always taken as a veiled threat for being banned.

I think that things have gotten worse with Denver Snuffer's troubles and it is taking it's toll on the board atmosphere. I think your suggestion to make the HG private forum open to public view was reasonable but I'm quite certain it will never happen. Those who believe in his teachings do not want anyone to read their posts--that is why they are hidden. It is also obvious that they feel 'judged', as they see it, by those of us who still believe in the LDS church teachings, uncluttered by the new perceptions Denver Snuffer has given them and this is part of the reason for this 'warfare' which will not stop breaking out.

There can be no 'truce' in this situation. Those of us who disagree with Denver Snuffer have no way to discuss our concerns, forced to play along with a charade that 'all is well on the LDSFF' while, the unspoken truth is that the private area is devoted to the teachings of a man who has broken with the LDS church. This did not 'fix' the problem because the problem still remains, and it has also IMO, brought a steady stream of new posters who find this board a comfortable place to find 'like-minded' people to share their dissatisfaction with the LDS faith. The private forum is dedicated to adherents of a man who was excommunicated, is not repentant but has openly rejected the church's Prophet and Apostles. I believe this is having a detrimental impact on the makeup of the board. If you look at the threads lately, which have to do with the LDS church, I believe you will see that they are not supportive of the LDS faith, it's leaders or it's teachings.

I for one have made the decision that as long as there is a private forum dedicated to Denver Snuffer and there is no tolerance on the public forum for anyone who disagrees with Denver Snuffer or his teachings to be able to defend our church, our leaders, our beliefs and our faith against his challenges, I cannot, in good conscience, participate here. I just do not feel right about continuing to support a forum which has chosen to silence the 'opposition' in this manner.

I'm sorry, because I've enjoyed LDSFF and was very happy to have found it. I'm also sorry to have to miss out on interacting with posters here.

Anyway, thank you Phoenixstar for being courageous enough to speak openly about this and attempt to find a solution. There won't be one, I'm afraid, but it doesn't lessen the value of your efforts or those others on this thread who have attempted to find a solution which would bring us together as we ought to have been--brothers and sisters who shared the common bond of the gospel.

[Phoenixstar117]

Anyway, thank you Phoenixstar for being courageous enough to speak openly about this and attempt to find a solution. There won't be one, I'm afraid, but it doesn't lessen the value of your efforts or those others on this thread who have attempted to find a solution which would bring us together as we ought to have been--brothers and sisters who shared the common bond of the gospel.

In the end, while I may have a suggested solution, it may not be the right one. As Jules commented above, the private area is for those who wish to work through these things without facing criticism. There are rules to that area and they are enforced. I'm not a very private person myself. I really don't mind at all what people believe of me, but that is just me. It's not necessarily righteousness. Just my level of comfort.

Others feel much more vulnerable. I recently read this blog post:
http://mormonism-unveiled.blogspot.com/ ... eagle.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This made me sad, because even posting in the private forum, someone misconstrued this man's doubts for open rebellion and apostasy.

It is after reading this that I would have to change my opinion about making the Heavenly Gift forum public.

This doesn't excuse the main reason I posted this originally though.

There is a great deal of contention on the forum yes. I find that most of the contention comes when we attach a great deal of importance(or our ego/pride) to our paradigm and when someone attacks that paradigm, we take it to be an attack on us.

This is quite natural. However, I've come to learn more in recent years that criticism no longer bothers me. My testimony, which was once shaken by "evidences", is now much more firm.

Whatever happened between BroJones and other members of the forum, I don't feel it was one sided. As I said in the OP, I'm not taking sides with either of them. I just feel that it takes 2 sides to start an argument. I do hope we can just act with more courtesy however.

Thanks for the comments, and hopefully you do decide to stay though. I would miss you if you left.