Did Christ atone for our sins twice?

[Ruby]

In my 40 plus years in the church I've never heard this one! It was taught in YW on Sunday that Christ atoned for our sins twice. Once in Gethsemane and again on the cross. The teacher taught her interpretation of Jesus the Christ page 613, where it reads:

"It seems, that in addition to the fearful suffering incident to crucifixion, the agony of Gethsemane had recurred, intensified beyond human power to endure."

I think she's wrong, but has anyone ever heard this taught before? Have I just not been paying attention?

[marc]

I disagree. It was all one experience, though I will say that it was in Gethsemane where He actually took upon Himself our sins, infirmities, etc. It is where He was "pressed" as an olive.

[A Random Phrase]

In my 40 plus years in the church I've never heard this one! It was taught in YW on Sunday that Christ atoned for our sins twice. Once in Gethsemane and again on the cross. The teacher taught her interpretation of Jesus the Christ page 613, where it reads:

"It seems, that in addition to the fearful suffering incident to crucifixion, the agony of Gethsemane had recurred, intensified beyond human power to endure."

I think she's wrong, but has anyone ever heard this taught before? Have I just not been paying attention?

I've heard that, but I can't tell you if it was in a Sunday School class or in an institute class. My studies lead me to believe that is false. Gethsemane was where the suffering for our sins happened, and it is my understanding that the only way they were able to kill Him was because He was so depleted from the Gethsemane suffering. I don't see anything in any scripture to support the idea that He suffered for our sins in both places.

[Obrien]

I've never been taught that piece of false doctrine. Maybe I was not paying attention that week...that's VERY possible.

See Alma 34:10 - 14 to refute this. I knew that was in the scriptures, somewhere.

[jockeybox]

I can't recall whose opinion this is, but in gethsemane he suffered greatly, but had fathers comfort.

On the cross he was alone.

[A Random Phrase]

I can't recall whose opinion this is, but in gethsemane he suffered greatly, but had fathers comfort.

On the cross he was alone.

I heard that, on the cross, when he cried out, "My God, My God, Why hast Thou forsaken me?" it was the beginning of a scripture well-known to those who stood around mocking and gaping. It was His testimony of who He really was.

During the suffering, was He alone or not? An angel came, strengthening Him, says a scripture. Someone (I forget who) thought that maybe He was in the presence of the Father while He suffered for sins, which made the agony greater (I've not seen scripture to support that). Jesus said He trod the winepress alone. It was in Gethsemane that he was squished like a grape, so to speak, to the point that blood came from every pore. That's one reason wine is such an apt symbol for His blood - red, bitter, and the grapes are squished until they burst.

[TannerG]

In his last talk, "The Purifying Power of Gethsemane," Bruce McConkie stated that all the pain of Gethsemane returned as Christ hung on the cross. His word is by no means binding, but it is interesting. Until now I wasn't aware that anybody else had made the claim.

[A Random Phrase]

That is probably where the teacher I heard it from got the info. I'm pretty sure BRM was still alive at the time.

[mhewett]

I hadn't heard that claim of atoning for our sins twice. I believe that would be false doctrine. There were 2 parts to the atonement, the suffering in Gethsemane and the death of Jesus. He suffered for our sins in Gethsemane to free us from spiritual death and by dying on the cross he enabled us to overcome physical death. The cross was not about suffering for sin. No doubt the suffering on the cross and beforehand was incredibly awful but it should be remembered other people were scourged and put up on crosses. But no one suffered the pains of Gethsemane apart from Jesus. As awful as the trek to Golgotha was and as terrible as being nailed on a cross was, especially to be left there suffering until death, it was not of the degree of Gethsemane and that is the only place Jesus suffered to pay the price for our sins if we would repent.

[davedan]

Mainstream Christianity looks to the Cross as the place of the atonement. LDS understand about the garden of Gethsemane. Christ did not pay for our sins twice, but we recognize both the suffering in the Garden and suffering on the Cross as part of the whole of the Atonement.

It is not an either/or issue. But at the same time, there was no duplicatation of effort or redo. The Atonement is a singular event that is both infinite and eternal.

[inho]

It was once, but it continued on the cross.
Why would He atone for us twice? Never heard that before.

[jdt]

I have observed that ordinances typically come in pairs. Baptism and receipt of the Holy Ghost, the Flesh and Blood of the Sacrament, the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood, the anointing and sealing of blessings, the washing and anointing of the Initiatory, the two sets of two of the Endowment, the sealing of husband and wife and parents and children. It seems to me that the atonement follows this same pattern with Gethsemane and Calvary. Now I would not claim that the exact same thing happened at both locations, but I do think it is two parts of the same ordinance.

[Robin Hood]

The one problem I have with our official take on the Gethsemane experience is that bleeding from pores is not unique to Christ. It used to happen in the WW1 trenches when men were faced with the prospect of going over the top. It was caused by extreme anxiety.
So it seems that Christ was also suffering extreme anxiety at the prospect of what was going to happen to him. It's possible the anxiety was caused by the weight of sin I suppose, but the physical expression (bursting blood vessels) was not unique.
I don't see where he took our sins upon himself in the garden, even though I know that is our doctrine.

[AGalagaChiasmus]

I had an MTC instructor posit the symbolism that Christ ascended the mount of Olives three times, once each for the three degrees of glory. After each time coming back to find the Brethren sleeping. And that it was during the "Telestial" atonement that He was sorely affected, nearly unable to bear it.

Not doctrine, but perhaps insightful. I know there's symbolism in most things scriptural.

Edit: Reference: Mark 14:32-41

[inho]

The one problem I have with our official take on the Gethsemane experience is that bleeding from pores is not unique to Christ.

Why is this a problem? Being crucified isn't unique to Christ either. I don't know why there should be any specific physical expression related to the atonement. The whole thing is beyond my comprehension.

[braingrunt]

I wonder, though I'm not totally attached to the idea, that Jesus suffers atoning feelings on a regular basis. I understand why this might be rejected and I won't attempt to defend it too much;
But to just lay it out there, it has felt to me, on various occasions, that God was mourning with me, and sharing my feelings, in the present tense. You further have to realize that men in the flesh do sometimes suffer the pains of the atonement in some small degree. At least Joseph and Oliver did:

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you HAVE tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

In short I sorta believe that if we feel some of the pains of the atonement, and bring it to God, that he will refeel it with us, since this succors us and heals us. I imagine that anything he resuffers on our account is greatly reduced yet still beyond our mortal understanding.

[taliesin]

I wonder, though I'm not totally attached to the idea, that Jesus suffers atoning feelings on a regular basis. I understand why this might be rejected and I won't attempt to defend it too much;
But to just lay it out there, it has felt to me, on various occasions, that God was mourning with me, and sharing my feelings, in the present tense. You further have to realize that men in the flesh do sometimes suffer the pains of the atonement in some small degree. At least Joseph and Oliver did:

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you HAVE tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

In short I sorta believe that if we feel some of the pains of the atonement, and bring it to God, that he will refeel it with us, since this succors us and heals us. I imagine that anything he resuffers on our account is greatly reduced yet still beyond our mortal understanding.

I believe there is something to what you have explained. When Christ visited the Nephites (likely 1 year after his resurrection), he healed everyone in the group of people with him. After the healings, he asked everyone to kneel down with him to pray. Before he prayed, this is what he felt:

"And it came to pass that when they had knelt upon the ground, Jesus groaned within himself, and said: Father, I am troubled because of the wickedness of the people of the house of Israel." (3 Nephi 17:14)

There he did feel some sort of pain, post-atonement, for the sins of the people.

[brrgilbert]

God Bless You and may you have peace in being who you are.

[Phoenixstar117]

In his last talk, "The Purifying Power of Gethsemane," Bruce McConkie stated that all the pain of Gethsemane returned as Christ hung on the cross. His word is by no means binding, but it is interesting. Until now I wasn't aware that anybody else had made the claim.

I'm pretty sure this originated with Talmage, the same person who was on the commitee to remove the Lecture's on Faith from our Doctrine and covenents. I'm sure Bruce R. was just going off of Talmage's work.

[BenMcCrea]

The Atonement began in Gethsemane and finished with the Lords death on the cross at Calvary. It was one Atonement and was completed when the Lord said: 'it is finished'.

[freedomforall]

The one problem I have with our official take on the Gethsemane experience is that bleeding from pores is not unique to Christ. It used to happen in the WW1 trenches when men were faced with the prospect of going over the top. It was caused by extreme anxiety.
So it seems that Christ was also suffering extreme anxiety at the prospect of what was going to happen to him. It's possible the anxiety was caused by the weight of sin I suppose, but the physical expression (bursting blood vessels) was not unique.
I don't see where he took our sins upon himself in the garden, even though I know that is our doctrine.

If you had the weight of every single conceivable sin committed by every single soul that has ever been on earth on your shoulders, in your thoughts, in your bosom with all the pain, agony, guilt, shame, torment, anguish and misery...how would you feel? This is what Jesus did for us, a sin free man...a man that went below all things and above all things in order to know how to succor us when we repent. He knows every way possible to sin, he knows the pain, anguish, torment, etc. at all levels us humans can feel or experience. This he did in Gethsemane.
The cross, as others here have said, finalized and sealed his suffering for us. It also brought about our being able to be resurrected. Also, Christ learned what it feels like to be alienated from His Father, to feel alone and in despair. For this very reason is why Christ cried out in the garden, "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done". Luke 22:42

And on the cross:

Mark 15:34
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

[jwharton]

He received within himself all of the load of mankind's sin in the garden and THEN he went and received the fitting punishment.

To me this makes it all one singular accomplishment but I'm not put off if people want to partition it out into its details.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the person was teaching false doctrine when it is just tinkering with semantics in a harmless manner.

Also, since we are on the topic of the crucifixion, has anyone looked at what it means that Jesus was given a bitter cup on the cross to drink from and that he had his bowels ruptured?

There is a law called the bitter waters test. It was a ceremony a woman could have the priest perform to solve a very perplexing problem. It was designed for when a husband suspected his wife was being unfaithful to him with another man and he had reasons enough to be convinced of her guilt, but he didn't actually have the eye-witnesses of them being caught in the very act as evidence. So, the woman was facing a very unfortunate dilemma to be scorned and shunned by her husband who believed her guilty but there was nothing actionable in the eyes of the law. If a woman wished to prove her innocence so that her husband's confidence could be regained, she could ask to be administered the test of bitter waters. In this test a priest would prepare a special cup with certain ingredients and pray over the waters that they would have one of two effects upon the woman, depending upon her guilt or innocence. If she was guilty the bitter waters would cause within her bowels extremely serious problems and cause her to suffer a miserably fatal death. If she was innocent the bitter waters would cause her no harm and she would also be blessed in her fertility.

This is the significance behind why Jesus plead with the Father to "let this cup pass from me, nevertheless, thy will be done".

Jesus was saying he didn't want to be put through the test of the bitter waters because he knew what was coming from doing so.

[freedomforall]

Here is the actual meaning of what is meant by the bitter cup in which Christ suffered:

Mark 14:36
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

3 Ne. 11:11
11 And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.

Matt. 26:39 (36–46)
36 ¶Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.
38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
43 And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.
44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
46 Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me.

D&C 19:17 (13–20)
13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;
14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;
15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

Luke 22:42 (42–44)
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground

The cup he faced was the blood dripping from his body from every pore due to pain and anguish having already stated that he felt ill even unto death. He was not sure he could go through with it, so an angel appeared and gave him strength.

If we do not repent, we will suffer a bitter cup, in that we will have to suffer for our own sins. And God says we won't like it very much.