Log
February 22, 2015 at 10:51 am
Let me explain why I don’t find you persuasive on this point, at least in part: we’re being asked to take sides, in prayer at least, in what amounts to a civil war.
Why shouldn’t I have charity, as you have put it, on ISIS against Iraq? Why shouldn’t I pray, “God, please bless ISIS?”
Log
February 22, 2015 at 12:07 pm
Have you talked to any of them, Tim? Do you have knowledge, or are you reacting to reports and rumors?
And why should the modern nation-state of Israel be of special concern? What of Palestine?
Do you not see the can of worms that opens up once we accept the principle that it is just or right to meddle in the internal affairs of others? Would you want them doing it to you?
Aotearoa Abinadi
February 22, 2015 at 11:17 pm
I think that most of you forget that one of the biggest terror groups in the world is the USA. How many years now have they fought on foreign soil, killing people while fighting aggressive attacking wars. Offensive wars will only lead to more animosity towards America, but they never seem to learn the lesson.
Also things are prophesied to get real bad in America as Satan takes the attack to the future of the 2 Jerusalem’s, and the fight wont focus to Jerusalem until it has been taken to the New Jerusalem first.
With the future being natural disasters, chemical/biological warfare and enemy troops causing blood to run bridal deep, I think praying for America should be on the cards and not just Baghdad.
MarkinPNW
February 24, 2015 at 12:18 am
Yes, beheading with a knife is barbaric and uncivilized. How much more modern and civilized it is to kill people with drones, cruise missiles, and disease and starvation through militarily enforced sanctions. Somehow, all the carnage caused by these “civilized” means just does not make it onto our mainstream news outlets, whether “conservative” or “liberal”.
If we are going to pray for anyone, perhaps we need to pray for the victims of all of these barbarities, and not just the ones victimized by SIS
Log
February 23, 2015 at 12:41 pm
In case people are confused about what I’m talking about – for some reason, people don’t ask me but rather assume they know – why was it not sufficient to say something like this?
“Denver Snuffer has written that God says all the world should pray that Baghdad not fall. I invite all my readers to join in this prayer.”
Indeed, that’s all that needed to be said. Right?
Instead, and I do not fault Tim’s intentions, what was written was a whole lot of geopolitics which, unless I’m greatly mistaken, Tim has no firsthand knowledge of, and Tim’s intent seems to have been to persuade others to take sides in what amounts to a civil war so as to make the request to pray for Baghdad to not fall seem not so much dependent upon Snuffer’s word and thus drive up participation in such a prayer – or so it seems to me. I feel pretty confident in thinking Tim is operating on reports and rumors of what’s occurring in Iraq, since I’ve seen Tim’s workplace and how he spends his time – typically not in Iraq. Now, that’s all well and good except there are multiple sides to anything, and in a world filled with propaganda, reports, rumors, and lies, nothing seems trustworthy.
We don’t have to take sides according to the word spoken by Snuffer; merely pray that Baghdad not fall. We have to take sides, according to the word spoken by Tim, because ISIS is evil. In this, Tim seems be making what seems to him to be a straightforward judgement that seems to him should be manifestly obvious to the most casual of observer – except nothing in this world is straightforward. Were the Lamanites evil? Well, they were described as wicked, and this because they were taught by the traditions of their fathers to hate the Nephites. Did God love them less? I recall the words of the Nephites to Aaron and his brethren when they proposed to teach the word to the Lamanites – and I think everyone might profit from remembering them.
So, did Tim (and Adrian Larsen) help, or hurt, the cause? Opinions may vary. But there is a principle I believe causes harm when not observed – don’t add to nor subtract from the word of the Lord. If your additions are found to be without merit, or of questionable merit, the persuading power of the word of the Lord is weakened thereby. I’ve seen this with respect to tithing, the word of wisdom, and other teachings besides. I’m sure you have, too.
... In any event, you may note that I never said “don’t pray,” I only asked questions. You may also note that I never said “I’m right.” There is no such thing as “right” in a world full of self-directing and self-defining autonomous beings. There are only goals and actions consistent or inconsistent with those goals. That’s the agency we are afforded.
We each receive according to our desires.
Log
February 23, 2015 at 12:45 pm
“Right,” that is, in matters of value.
Log
February 23, 2015 at 3:13 pm
Even if it were real, it wouldn’t matter; we don’t get involved unless asked to by God (D&C 98:33–38).
But yes, the whole world can be deceived.
Revelation 18:23
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Propaganda is an age-old art: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alm ... ng#primary" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As to when you decide to trust others, I suppose that entirely depends on how important you feel it is to not be deceived.
Log
February 23, 2015 at 7:13 pm
... If we are yielding our hearts to God, we don’t get to say who the evil are. If we have charity, we don’t want to...
...unless God directs otherwise, we don’t judge, and we don’t intervene.
Again, God’s ways are not men’s ways, and his rules are not the ones the world operates by.
Log
February 24, 2015 at 8:46 am
Charity is impartial.
Fear / hatred is partial.
http://latterdaycommentary.com/2015/02/ ... -farewell/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Karl
February 24, 2015 at 2:33 pm
Now THIS is an interesting discussion. What exactly is the morality of the worldwide intervention the USA has taken since 1917 in nation after nation. WW1 to Make the World Safe for Democracy, WW2 to stop Fascism, and then every intervention since WW2, all UNDECLARED: Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan. Nibley warned of endless “brushfire” wars all fomented by the military/industrial folks, and all built on the principle of power and GAIN (the Mahon principle). With Log, I follow the BOM teaching that the ONLY justified military action is strictly for DEFENSIVE purposes only. Tim, you need to realize the context of what is happening in Iraq: our offensive intervention is wholly unjustified, at least from a gospel standpoint. After 15 years of destruction and carnage, all provoked and agitated by the USA, we finally declared “victory” and withdrew. What does anyone think was going to happen there? The power vacuum is just too tempting: the country is now fragmented into groups competing for power. And which cowboys have white hats, and which black? But, make no mistake about this: this is all about OIL & resources (at least from the USA point of view): if the ISIS group gets too far along, you will see an American invasion (including ground troops), as there has never been since WW2. That’s the real danger, because the situation threatens to ignite WW3 (with the US taking center stage). So, I would say: go ahead and pray for these regions, but realize that just as the Lord can only bless individuals to the level of their willingness to comply to gospel principles, the same holds true for groups and nations as well. Frankly, I don’t know who the good guys and bad guys are in that region anymore. I think all actors, including the USA, are knee-deep in blood.
Does anyone else find these sentiments as surprising as I do?
This would be a minority view here, wouldn't it?
