What is an "Apostolic" or "Special Witness" of Christ?

[BDS]

another way to explain my position would be to think of the special witness calling of the Apostles like the witnesses of the BOM. anyone can know for themselves the BOM is true from the HG but special witnesses were shown the BOM on the plates. Those were special witnesses.

in my opinion all the apostles being special witnesses by virtue of their calling obtain some type of special witness because that is what they were called to be. What all the details of being a special witness is I couldn't tell you for sure.

this does not mean that non apostles cannot become worthy to see Christ.

If you read the full quote from Oliver Cowdery in the OP, he tells the newly called quorum of the 12 that their ordination wasn't complete until Christ had laid his hands on them Himself. They had already been ordained by men to be apostles when Oliver was saying this. Therefore, receiving the calling in the church doesn't make you special, being ordained by Christ the risen Lord makes you a "special witness".

[Tony]

The second point is that Christ is bearing witness that by personally baptizing us with Fire and with the Holy Ghost, it is by the power of this baptism that we come to know Jesus Christ. This, of course, is not equivalent to being redeemed from the Fall, and as the brother of Jared, no longer having faith, but knowing, but it is knowledge still, whether or not, as an "apostolic" witness. That being the case, are we not all apostles and prophets? If not, then perhaps a number of us have not yet been baptized with fire as I have. And that is my personal witness.

No, we are not all "apostles and prophets."

The one and only way to know Jesus Christ is through his gospel, through all the laws, rites, and ordinances of the gospel. And we must endure to the end: “Whosoever is of my church and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.”

[marc]

I know, Tony. I was illustrating the point that if an apostle is going to invoke his special witness by the sole virtue of knowing by the power of the Holy Ghost, then the logical conclusion is that all who know by the power of the Holy Ghost are also apostles. (2 Ne 31:14)

[Tony]

If you read the full quote from Oliver Cowdery in the OP, he tells the newly called quorum of the 12 that their ordination wasn't complete until Christ had laid his hands on them Himself. They had already been ordained by men to be apostles when Oliver was saying this. Therefore, receiving the calling in the church doesn't make you special, being ordained by Christ the risen Lord makes you a "special witness".

Oliver Cowdery was excommunicated in 1838, 3 years after he claimed that the Twelve Apostles did not have a "full and complete" ordination until "God has laid His hand upon you," adding, "We require as much to qualify us as did those who have gone before us; God is the same. If the Savior in former days laid His hands upon His disciples, why not in latter days?"

Oliver Cowdery was not having revelation for the Church, nor could he have revelation for the Church at any time, and he was not stating doctrine when he made the claim about God needing to lay his hand upon the Twelve Apostles in order to make their ordination "full and complete."

But apostates and heretics will latch onto anything to try and discredit the Church.

[BDS]

If you read the full quote from Oliver Cowdery in the OP, he tells the newly called quorum of the 12 that their ordination wasn't complete until Christ had laid his hands on them Himself. They had already been ordained by men to be apostles when Oliver was saying this. Therefore, receiving the calling in the church doesn't make you special, being ordained by Christ the risen Lord makes you a "special witness".

Oliver Cowdery was excommunicated in 1838, 3 years after he claimed that the Twelve Apostles did not have a "full and complete" ordination until "God has laid His hand upon you," adding, "We require as much to qualify us as did those who have gone before us; God is the same. If the Savior in former days laid His hands upon His disciples, why not in latter days?"

Oliver Cowdery was not having revelation for the Church, nor could he have revelation for the Church at any time, and he was not stating doctrine when he made the claim about God needing to lay his hand upon the Twelve Apostles in order to make their ordination "full and complete."

But apostates and heretics will latch onto anything to try and discredit the Church.

You better throw out most of the D&C then. Oliver was the one who compiled and edited and added to those revelations into what you carry around today. He was also the scribe for the book of mormon, better chuck that out the window while you are at it. Because after all, he was excommunicated from the church. I am sure you are accepting of anything else he did, like calling the first quorum of the 12 apostles. It was Oliver saying that to them because it was him and 2 others who ordained those apostles. I guess we better dismiss those first apostles because Oliver later left the church.

You are aware he came back in 1848 and was rebaptized right? Does that not make it all better? He died a mormon. How does him not agreeing with Joseph 3 years later make the statement he made there incorrect? The church today claims that the apostles are called the same way they were in ancient days. I know because I had to teach it in primary today and it is right there in the lesson manual. That is all Oliver is stating and because he later left the church you throw that out? You know he is one of the 3 witnesses right? Do you discount his witness to the plates also? Or do you pick and choose what best fits your current paradigm and throw out the rest?

[Tony]

You better throw out most of the D&C then. Oliver was the one who compiled and edited and added to those revelations into what you carry around today. He was also the scribe for the book of mormon, better chuck that out the window while you are at it. Because after all, he was excommunicated from the church. I am sure you are accepting of anything else he did, like calling the first quorum of the 12 apostles. It was Oliver saying that to them because it was him and 2 others who ordained those apostles. I guess we better dismiss those first apostles because Oliver later left the church.

You are aware he came back in 1848 and was rebaptized right? Does that not make it all better? He died a mormon. How does him not agreeing with Joseph 3 years later make the statement he made there incorrect? The church today claims that the apostles are called the same way they were in ancient days. I know because I had to teach it in primary today and it is right there in the lesson manual. That is all Oliver is stating and because he later left the church you throw that out? You know he is one of the 3 witnesses right? Do you discount his witness to the plates also? Or do you pick and choose what best fits your current paradigm and throw out the rest?

Oliver Cowdery was given authority to do certain things, but he never had the authority to have revelation for the Church or establish doctrine, although he certainly tried.

The Prophet Joseph Smith sometimes received assistance in preparing sections of the Doctrine and Covenants for publication. Oliver Cowdery, for example, helped him write the Kirtland Temple dedicatory prayer, which is now D&C Section 109.

The Archives of the Historical Department of the Church has what appears to be an early draft of the Articles and Covenants written in Oliver Cowdery’s handwriting and dated in 1829. It is titled: “A True Copy of the articles of the Church of Christ.” Oliver Cowdery wrote at the beginning of this document that he composed it by commandment. If the procedure was the same then as now, such a commandment would have come through the Prophet.

Oliver Cowdery wrote a letter to the Prophet Joseph Smith in the summer of 1830 asking that a part of verse 37 in D&C Section 20, which Oliver considered to be in error, be taken out of the revelation, which clearly shows Oliver was trying to assert authority that he did not have.

The Prophet recorded: “He wrote to inform me that he had discovered an error in one of the commandments and added: ‘I command you in the name of God to erase those words, that no priestcraft be amongst us!’

“I immediately wrote to him in reply, in which I asked him by what authority he took upon him to command me to alter or erase, to add to or diminish from, a revelation or commandment from Almighty God.

“A few days afterwards I visited him and Mr. Whitmer’s family, when I found the family in general opinion concerning the words … , and it was not without both labor and perseverance that I could prevail with any of them to reason calmly on the subject. However, … finally, … I succeeded in bringing not only the Whitmer family, but also Oliver Cowdery to acknowledge that they had been in error”

D&C Section 28 is a revelation given through the Prophet Joseph Smith to Oliver Cowdery in September 1830. In verses 2-3, the Lord saw fit to say to Oliver: “But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.

“And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.”

And yes, I know Oliver was rebaptized 10 years later in 1848, and he died in Missouri in March 1850.

[BDS]

You better throw out most of the D&C then. Oliver was the one who compiled and edited and added to those revelations into what you carry around today. He was also the scribe for the book of mormon, better chuck that out the window while you are at it. Because after all, he was excommunicated from the church. I am sure you are accepting of anything else he did, like calling the first quorum of the 12 apostles. It was Oliver saying that to them because it was him and 2 others who ordained those apostles. I guess we better dismiss those first apostles because Oliver later left the church.

You are aware he came back in 1848 and was rebaptized right? Does that not make it all better? He died a mormon. How does him not agreeing with Joseph 3 years later make the statement he made there incorrect? The church today claims that the apostles are called the same way they were in ancient days. I know because I had to teach it in primary today and it is right there in the lesson manual. That is all Oliver is stating and because he later left the church you throw that out? You know he is one of the 3 witnesses right? Do you discount his witness to the plates also? Or do you pick and choose what best fits your current paradigm and throw out the rest?

Oliver Cowdery was given authority to do certain things, but he never had the authority to have revelation for the Church or establish doctrine, although he certainly tried.

The Prophet Joseph Smith sometimes received assistance in preparing sections of the Doctrine and Covenants for publication. Oliver Cowdery, for example, helped him write the Kirtland Temple dedicatory prayer, which is now D&C Section 109.

The Archives of the Historical Department of the Church has what appears to be an early draft of the Articles and Covenants written in Oliver Cowdery’s handwriting and dated in 1829. It is titled: “A True Copy of the articles of the Church of Christ.” Oliver Cowdery wrote at the beginning of this document that he composed it by commandment. If the procedure was the same then as now, such a commandment would have come through the Prophet.

Oliver Cowdery wrote a letter to the Prophet Joseph Smith in the summer of 1830 asking that a part of verse 37 in D&C Section 20, which Oliver considered to be in error, be taken out of the revelation, which clearly shows Oliver was trying to assert authority that he did not have.

The Prophet recorded: “He wrote to inform me that he had discovered an error in one of the commandments and added: ‘I command you in the name of God to erase those words, that no priestcraft be amongst us!’

“I immediately wrote to him in reply, in which I asked him by what authority he took upon him to command me to alter or erase, to add to or diminish from, a revelation or commandment from Almighty God.

“A few days afterwards I visited him and Mr. Whitmer’s family, when I found the family in general opinion concerning the words … , and it was not without both labor and perseverance that I could prevail with any of them to reason calmly on the subject. However, … finally, … I succeeded in bringing not only the Whitmer family, but also Oliver Cowdery to acknowledge that they had been in error”

D&C Section 28 is a revelation given through the Prophet Joseph Smith to Oliver Cowdery in September 1830. In verses 2-3, the Lord saw fit to say to Oliver: “But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.

“And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.”

And yes, I know Oliver was rebaptized 10 years later in 1848, and he died in Missouri in March 1850.

So how was what Oliver said a commandment or revelation to the church? How can you say that Oliver wasn't relaying a message Joseph had previously given him when he was ordained an apostle? The men he was talking to weren't the first apostles of the church. They were however being organized into a quorum of 12 foe the first time.

Nothing Oliver said conflicts with scripture. What you are saying is that whenever a man is given the title apostle he automatically is given the experience of being in the presence of the Savior. I don't believe that, I believe he can have that privilege and as Oliver said it is his duty to do so, but it doesn't come with the office automatically.

[Tony]

BDS,

I maintain that modern day Apostles do not have to be, as you put it, “ordained by Christ the risen Lord.” Your first post in this thread, which you base on Oliver Cowdery’s claim, states, “Therefore, receiving the calling in the church doesn't make you special, being ordained by Christ the risen Lord makes you a ‘special witness.’”

Oliver Cowdery did not and could not establish that as doctrine. His claim is, therefore, not doctrine. As my previous post makes clear, Oliver clearly tried to overstep his bounds and assume the role of Prophet, Seer, and Revelator.