What is an "Apostolic" or "Special Witness" of Christ?

[ajax]

Oliver Cowdery instructed the early apostles:

You have been indebted to other men, in the first instance, for evidence; on that you have acted; but it is necessary that you receive a testimony from heaven for yourselves; so that you can bear testimony to the truth of the Book of Mormon, and that you have seen the face of God. That is more than the testimony of an angel. When the proper time arrives, you shall be able to bear this testimony to the world. When you bear testimony that you have seen God, this testimony God will never suffer to fall, but will bear you out; although many will not give heed, yet others will. You will therefore see the necessity of getting this testimony from heaven.

Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. Strengthen your faith; cast off you doubts, your sins, and all your unbelief; and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you. We require as much to qualify us as did those who have gone before us; God is the same. If the Savior in former days laid His hands upon His disciples, why not in latter days?

Where are the modern testimonies?

Here is Elder Bednar's witness:
"It is in the consistency of simple witnesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that I know that Jesus is the Christ"
https://www.lds.org/media-library/video ... s&lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From a non-member:
"Have you met Jesus. If you haven't met Jesus, then I'm sorry, you're not an apostle"

[Epistemology]

The fact that his knowledge comes from the HG doesn't mean he hasn't seen Christ.

Do you think the original 12 knew that Jesus was the Christ because they saw him everyday? Those that crucified him saw him on a regular basis too.

Do you think the original 12 knew He was the Christ because he walked on water? No because the Old Testament and other sources show us that adversarial people can do amazing things too.

The original 12 knew He was the Christ because of the HG.

So Bednar saying that's how he knows, by the power of the HG is correct.
Bednar is a special witness because of what he sees.

[Ezra]

I often wonder how many have seen christ in person. And would love to myself as well as meet others who have in person.

I'm working at gaining that witness.

[marc]

There are two points that I would personally like to make in this post, apart from whatever is considered an "apostolic" witness of Christ. But first, a scripture:

2 Nephi 31:13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

The first point I want to make is that Nephi allows us a glimpse into his personal life. In this chapter, we learn that both Jesus Christ and His Father had made their abode with Nephi, per Christ's words in the book of John of the New Testament. The second point is that Christ is bearing witness that by personally baptizing us with Fire and with the Holy Ghost, it is by the power of this baptism that we come to know Jesus Christ. This, of course, is not equivalent to being redeemed from the Fall, and as the brother of Jared, no longer having faith, but knowing, but it is knowledge still, whether or not, as an "apostolic" witness. That being the case, are we not all apostles and prophets? If not, then perhaps a number of us have not yet been baptized with fire as I have. And that is my personal witness.

[Epistemology]

others have seen Christ and are not Apostles. my earlier response was just addressing the part about knowing Jesus is the Christ.

Also, one can know Jesus like one man knows another man but I assume it is by the HG that we know Jesus is the Christ

[LDS Dude]

"The Prophet Joseph said: Brethren now you are prepared to be the Apostles of Jesus Christ, for you have seen both the Father and the Son, and know that They exist, and that They are two separate Personages.” -Joseph Smith March 18, 1833

[sushi_chef]

perhaps hearing/doing much matters than seeing....

"1 Hearken and hear, O ye my people, saith the Lord and your God, ye whom I delight to bless with the greatest of all blessings, ye that hear me; and ye that hear me not will I curse, that have professed my name, with the heaviest of all cursings.
"
(d&c 41)
.................................................................................................. :-B

[Alighieri]

The fact that his knowledge comes from the HG doesn't mean he hasn't seen Christ.

Do you think the original 12 knew that Jesus was the Christ because they saw him everyday? Those that crucified him saw him on a regular basis too.

Do you think the original 12 knew He was the Christ because he walked on water? No because the Old Testament and other sources show us that adversarial people can do amazing things too.

The original 12 knew He was the Christ because of the HG.

So Bednar saying that's how he knows, by the power of the HG is correct.
Bednar is a special witness because of what he sees.

Nicely done.

Looks like the question has been answered.

I know that the current President of the Church, his counselors, and the Twelve Apostles are special witnesses of Jesus Christ. They know Him. They are familiar with Him. They are His friends and brethren. It is sweet for me to know this and it brings me peace and I joy to know that the Lord still has His anointed servants on the earth today.

/threadover

[TannerG]

The word "apostle" comes from the Greek "apostolos" which means "messenger." This is the equivalent of the Hebrew "malak." The Hebrew word for "prophet" (nabi) suggests a synonymous role. To be a true messenger, one must have been given a message from God. This is taught plainly in the LDS endowment.

Of those who would give messages to the people, the Lord told Jeremiah,

“Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes.They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord. They keep saying to those who despise me, ‘The Lord says: You will have peace.’ And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts they say, ‘No harm will come to you.’ But which of them has stood in the council of the Lord to see or to hear his word? Who has listened and heard his word?"

In the early days of the church, an apostle qualified to be such through a charismatic experience. The title also extended to those who were called on missions (thus fulfilling the role of messengers). When the Quorum of the Twelve was selected by the Three Witnesses, some who had actually witnessed the Son were not called, while others who had not seen Him were. For this purpose, Oliver Cowdery issued the aforementioned charge for the members of the quorum to never cease striving until they had seen the face of God.

The Mormon concept of apostleship is pretty convoluted. The quorum itself was not originally intended to have such exclusive power. The members of the quorum were expected to obtain that witness. As more and more were chosen for political/economic purposes (ala Reed Smoot), such charismatic witnesses began to decline. Eventually the charge was dropped all together.

Having a Quorum of Twelve Apostles responsible for managing the missionary efforts where there are no formed stakes of Zion does not mean there are not apostles outside of that quorum. That would be like suggesting that the number of Elders in the world is limited to your ward's quorum.

Interestingly, when the original quorum of the twelve apostles met to select a new member after Judas's death, they said, "one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection." This seems pretty clear to me about the need to see.

A court of law would immediately dismiss a witness that could not offer a testimony of anything they had seen or heard.

Moses lament that he wished all men were prophets translates to apostleship as well. Would God that all the Lord's people were apostles!

[Dannyk]

I realize this is second hand information, so take it for what it's worth.

I was having a chat with a friend about this. He has maintained a close relationship with his mission president over the years, who is now in a higher position in the church (70 I believe). My friend, out of curiosity, asked him what it meant to have a special witness.

The answer was roughly along the lines of - it is special because it is unique between you and God, it is personal and unlike any other's witness. That and it is your calling to bear it.

In other words, not only is charge by Oliver Cowdery gone, but it has been replaced by "it's whatever it means to you, and you have a right to call it special because it is yours".

Again, full disclosure, this is second hand, so take it as you will. But "special" seems to have lost it's meaning.

[Millimecham]

I love this. Thanks for sharing Ajax.

[taliesin]

The word special comes from the root word 'spec', meaning to see. This root word can be found in words such as spectacle and inspect. The word witness comes from the root word 'wit', meaning to know. So, based on root words, special witness means to see and to know. Alma the Younger labored to help other people come to that point:

For because of the word [priesthood commission] which he has imparted unto me,
behold, many have been born of God [baptized by water and by fire],
and have tasted as I have tasted [this corresponds to the phase of spiritual development and testing between being baptized with fire and meeting God at the veil and entering into his presence],
and have seen eye to eye as I have seen [here they are "special"];
therefore they do know of these things of which I have spoken, as I do know [at this point they are also "witnesses"];
and the knowledge which I have is of God. (Alma 36:26)

[Robert Sinclair]

Joseph Smith had this. ♡ ♡

[Jake]

The fact that his knowledge comes from the HG doesn't mean he hasn't seen Christ.

Do you think the original 12 knew that Jesus was the Christ because they saw him everyday? Those that crucified him saw him on a regular basis too.

Do you think the original 12 knew He was the Christ because he walked on water? No because the Old Testament and other sources show us that adversarial people can do amazing things too.

The original 12 knew He was the Christ because of the HG.

So Bednar saying that's how he knows, by the power of the HG is correct.
Bednar is a special witness because of what he sees.

If Bednar's knowledge comes from the Holy Ghost, how is that more special than your knowledge from the Holy Ghost, or my knowledge from the Holy Ghost, or anyone else's knowledge from the Holy Ghost? The only thing I can conclude is that his knowledge is special because of his office. Would you agree with this? If not, what makes Bednar's knowledge more special?

[sushi_chef]

so, has to be zion quality people, who are the pure in heart, who shall see God, and they are relatively many, and from them 12 are called....
:-B

[Epistemology]

Jake,

The OP implies that since Bednar claims his knowledge is from the HG then he hasn't seen Christ. And as I stated in my post that's where all of our knowledge comes from of Christ. Being a special witness is something different. We can ALL know Jesus is the Christ by the power of the HG. As I stated in my last sentence of my post Bednar is a special witness because of what he sees.

This is my opinion on the matter and I'm not saying I'm right.

Bednar knowledge by the HG is the same as ours but I assume as a special witness he has been given further information, something special, that may come from the office of apostle etc

[Jake]

Jake,

The OP implies that since Bednar claims his knowledge is from the HG then he hasn't seen Christ. And as I stated in my post that's where all of our knowledge comes from of Christ. Being a special witness is something different. We can ALL know Jesus is the Christ by the power of the HG. As I stated in my last sentence of my post Bednar is a special witness because of what he sees.

This is my opinion on the matter and I'm not saying I'm right.

Bednar knowledge by the HG is the same as ours but I assume as a special witness he has been given further information, something special, that may come from the office of apostle etc

Thanks for clarifying. FWIW, I don't think we should conclude anything from Elder Bednar's testimony other than what it says. I do take issue with the idea of a "special witness" that is only special because it comes from someone's church office. If there is something more to be understood from someone's testimony then I expect they will make it clear. In other words, they will state the basis for their testimony in plain words.

I have to be honest, it doesn't mean anything to me when someone says they "know" something by the power of the Holy Ghost. They should give a more concrete basis for their knowledge. When they can relate an experience that gives them such knowledge, then their knowledge means something. I really like Lorenzo Snow's testimony of his baptism of fire, where he describes the event clearly. If you just get up and say you know something and don't explain how, it doesn't mean much. When someone bears testimony because of their church office, it means nothing. When they know something because they had an experience and then they share that experience, it has real convincing power.

[TannerG]

Jake,

The OP implies that since Bednar claims his knowledge is from the HG then he hasn't seen Christ. And as I stated in my post that's where all of our knowledge comes from of Christ. Being a special witness is something different. We can ALL know Jesus is the Christ by the power of the HG. As I stated in my last sentence of my post Bednar is a special witness because of what he sees.

This is my opinion on the matter and I'm not saying I'm right.

Bednar knowledge by the HG is the same as ours but I assume as a special witness he has been given further information, something special, that may come from the office of apostle etc

Thanks for clarifying. FWIW, I don't think we should conclude anything from Elder Bednar's testimony other than what it says. I do take issue with the idea of a "special witness" that is only special because it comes from someone's church office. If there is something more to be understood from someone's testimony then I expect they will make it clear. In other words, they will state the basis for their testimony in plain words.

I have to be honest, it doesn't mean anything to me when someone says they "know" something by the power of the Holy Ghost. They should give a more concrete basis for their knowledge. When they can relate an experience that gives them such knowledge, then their knowledge means something. I really like Lorenzo Snow's testimony of his baptism of fire, where he describes the event clearly. If you just get up and say you know something and don't explain how, it doesn't mean much. When someone bears testimony because of their church office, it means nothing. When they know something because they had an experience and then they share that experience, it has real convincing power.

Jake, I think you make a good point that I've never put into words. I think that when people say "I know by the Holy Ghost," many times they felt the fruit of the Holy Ghost (peace, love, etc.) which made them confident in their beliefs, whether or not those beliefs are correct.

[samizdat]

Jake,

The OP implies that since Bednar claims his knowledge is from the HG then he hasn't seen Christ. And as I stated in my post that's where all of our knowledge comes from of Christ. Being a special witness is something different. We can ALL know Jesus is the Christ by the power of the HG. As I stated in my last sentence of my post Bednar is a special witness because of what he sees.

This is my opinion on the matter and I'm not saying I'm right.

Bednar knowledge by the HG is the same as ours but I assume as a special witness he has been given further information, something special, that may come from the office of apostle etc

Thanks for clarifying. FWIW, I don't think we should conclude anything from Elder Bednar's testimony other than what it says. I do take issue with the idea of a "special witness" that is only special because it comes from someone's church office. If there is something more to be understood from someone's testimony then I expect they will make it clear. In other words, they will state the basis for their testimony in plain words.

I have to be honest, it doesn't mean anything to me when someone says they "know" something by the power of the Holy Ghost. They should give a more concrete basis for their knowledge. When they can relate an experience that gives them such knowledge, then their knowledge means something. I really like Lorenzo Snow's testimony of his baptism of fire, where he describes the event clearly. If you just get up and say you know something and don't explain how, it doesn't mean much. When someone bears testimony because of their church office, it means nothing. When they know something because they had an experience and then they share that experience, it has real convincing power.

Anyone can have a special witness of Christ, even the type of witness that is considered to be an Apostolic Witness.

Those that currently occupy the Q12A and FP have seen Christ. Quite a few 70s have too. And quite a few rank and file members of the Church too. They speak in parables to avoid being laughed at by this disbelieving generation.

[caddis]

Jake,

The OP implies that since Bednar claims his knowledge is from the HG then he hasn't seen Christ. And as I stated in my post that's where all of our knowledge comes from of Christ. Being a special witness is something different. We can ALL know Jesus is the Christ by the power of the HG. As I stated in my last sentence of my post Bednar is a special witness because of what he sees.

This is my opinion on the matter and I'm not saying I'm right.

Bednar knowledge by the HG is the same as ours but I assume as a special witness he has been given further information, something special, that may come from the office of apostle etc

Thanks for clarifying. FWIW, I don't think we should conclude anything from Elder Bednar's testimony other than what it says. I do take issue with the idea of a "special witness" that is only special because it comes from someone's church office. If there is something more to be understood from someone's testimony then I expect they will make it clear. In other words, they will state the basis for their testimony in plain words.

I have to be honest, it doesn't mean anything to me when someone says they "know" something by the power of the Holy Ghost. They should give a more concrete basis for their knowledge. When they can relate an experience that gives them such knowledge, then their knowledge means something. I really like Lorenzo Snow's testimony of his baptism of fire, where he describes the event clearly. If you just get up and say you know something and don't explain how, it doesn't mean much. When someone bears testimony because of their church office, it means nothing. When they know something because they had an experience and then they share that experience, it has real convincing power.

Anyone can have a special witness of Christ, even the type of witness that is considered to be an Apostolic Witness.

Those that currently occupy the Q12A and FP have seen Christ. Quite a few 70s have too. And quite a few rank and file members of the Church too. They speak in parables to avoid being laughed at by this disbelieving generation.

=)) =)) =)) =))

[samizdat]

Fools mock but they shall mourn.

[Thomas]

The fact that his knowledge comes from the HG doesn't mean he hasn't seen Christ.

Do you think the original 12 knew that Jesus was the Christ because they saw him everyday? Those that crucified him saw him on a regular basis too.

Do you think the original 12 knew He was the Christ because he walked on water? No because the Old Testament and other sources show us that adversarial people can do amazing things too.

The original 12 knew He was the Christ because of the HG.

So Bednar saying that's how he knows, by the power of the HG is correct.
Bednar is a special witness because of what he sees.

Nicely done.

Looks like the question has been answered.

I know that the current President of the Church, his counselors, and the Twelve Apostles are special witnesses of Jesus Christ. They know Him. They are familiar with Him. They are His friends and brethren. It is sweet for me to know this and it brings me peace and I joy to know that the Lord still has His anointed servants on the earth today.

/threadover

Why does it give you peace and joy? How does that help your salvation? Would it not be better to do as Nephi says and work out your salvation with fear and trembling before the Lord, instead of having peace and joy that someone else has been saved?

[Jake]

Anyone can have a special witness of Christ, even the type of witness that is considered to be an Apostolic Witness.

Those that currently occupy the Q12A and FP have seen Christ. Quite a few 70s have too.
But how do we KNOW? We can assume all day long, but you know what they say about people who assume. Shouldn't we just take them at their word? Prophets of generations past, including Joseph Smith, openly testified that they saw Christ. They did so so we could have faith that WE can see Christ too. I just don't see how you can make such a blanket statement when they themselves won't testify of it.
And quite a few rank and file members of the Church too. They speak in parables to avoid being laughed at by this disbelieving generation.
Being laughed at, scorned, ridiculed, and hated is the trademark of a true messenger. Shall we stop testifying of Christ because we are afraid of the scorn that men throw at us? If it is true that these men have seen Christ and won't testify of it because of mockery, then SHAME ON THEM! They have an obligation to bear testimony that He lives. That is their calling. Doing so in parables is wrong. Parables are to conceal mysteries from the unprepared. But knowledge that God lives is testified of everywhere. It is not a mystery, it is openly discussed.

[marc]

In my opinion, if anyone speaks in parables for the express reason that they do not want to be laughed at, it is tantamount to being ashamed after having partaken the fruit of the tree of life. Fear is never a good reason to hide one's light. Personally speaking, I will boldly testify whatever the Lord will have me testify without fear of being laughed at, ridiculed, shamed, etc.

[Epistemology]

another way to explain my position would be to think of the special witness calling of the Apostles like the witnesses of the BOM. anyone can know for themselves the BOM is true from the HG but special witnesses were shown the BOM on the plates. Those were special witnesses.

in my opinion all the apostles being special witnesses by virtue of their calling obtain some type of special witness because that is what they were called to be. What all the details of being a special witness is I couldn't tell you for sure.

this does not mean that non apostles cannot become worthy to see Christ.