Leaders Going Over Parents' Authority

[Thinker]

Just realized it was common procedure for church leaders to ask youth to accept callings, help lead overnight functions etc., before talking to the youth's parents. I learned this the hard way and have asserted my right to say NO TWICE (about the same thing) as a parent, especially when it was repeatedly attempted behind my back.

This is wrong on many levels.

Also, how appropriate is it for a child to be asked personal questions alone one-on-one with an adult without a parent present?
I imagine I'm not the only one who felt uncomfortable when I was interviewed by church leaders as a youth by myself in a room alone with them.

Parents are the legal, moral and spiritual guardians over their children - the church is not!

[kgrigio]

I have always had ward leader talk to me with my kids or my parents when it was me before extending callings. There isn't a policy either way, but my guess is that most think to run it by parents first.

[A Random Phrase]

Just realized it was common procedure for church leaders to ask youth to accept callings, help lead overnight functions etc., before talking to the youth's parents.

Every time any of my children were going to be asked to do a calling, I was always asked first so, if this is church-wide, then it must have begun in the last 4-5 years.

[A Random Phrase]

Also, how appropriate is it for a child to be asked personal questions alone one-on-one with an adult without a parent present?

I used to think that was just the way it had to be. I disagree now. Having a parent present not only protects the child from predator priesthood holders (sadly, it does happen, though most of my leaders were pretty dang awesome men), it protects the priesthood leader from false accusations of sexual comments/advances/etc.

But, sometimes, a child may want to talk to a bishop about something they don't want the parent to know. What about then?

[worthit]

Our bishop in Denton, Tx, David Martino, and the bishop in Sterling, Utah, Brian Fowles, advised our children not to listen to their parents because they, the bishops, disagreed with our choice to homeschool. The children (six of them) were very obedient. However, a few months after, on both occasions, they began to question everything and label their parents idiots. It came to a point that I had to tell both bishops that they did not have parent's permission to interview our children alone. It was interesting that both bishops took the same tactic. They would ask prying questions of our children, then twist the info with added lies and slander. It was hard to believe what was happening, so I don't expect you to believe it either, until it happens to you.
Just wanted to back up what the inspired parent, Thinker, was expressing. Parents trust your judgment!

[A Random Phrase]

That was horrible, worthit! I do believe you. I have heard many stories about bishops. That is what changed my mind about allowing a child to go in, alone, to an interview - but, by then, my own children were either 18 and/or not going to church anymore.

I hope your children began to view you as knowing what you were doing after you put a stop to what the bishops were doing.

[Rose Garden]

I have heard of people having problems like that. It is so sad. I have been blessed with good bishops for the most part. While they had their weaknesses, they never did anything intentionally deceptive like that.

[juniper]

Policy is that bishopric members are to get parents approval before issuing any calling to a minor.

[Thinker]

Thanks for your comments.
It's good to get feedback and different perspectives.
Most people and most church leaders have good intentions etc, but now and then, there are some who have issues, so I think it is wise as parents to be watchful over our kids. As parents, we do get inspiration and spiritual guidance that we need to heed, regarding the well-being of our children.

RandomPhrase,
I do think that in cases of parental abuse or when youth need to confide in another adult besides parents, youth needs to be able to discuss with someone. But I think that private meeting should be the exception, not the rule.
And church policy should encourage children to respect parental authority, not try to undermine it.

[A Random Phrase]

RandomPhrase,
I do think that in cases of parental abuse or when youth need to confide in another adult besides parents, youth needs to be able to discuss with someone. But I think that private meeting should be the exception, not the rule.
And church policy should encourage children to respect parental authority, not try to undermine it.

I agree.

I think any private meeting ought to be in a place where the child feels free to leave at any time - and the child should not be talking to a personality that is not safe (overbearing, intimidating, emotionally/mentally harmful/etc.).

[tmac]

Our bishop in Denton, Tx, David Martino, and the bishop in Sterling, Utah, Brian Fowles, advised our children not to listen to their parents because they, the bishops, disagreed with our choice to homeschool.

This is interesting. Unfortunately, there's a big gap between theory and reality in the Church when it comes to the family and the role of parents. The church likes to talk about the important role of parents and parental authority, etc., unless/until church leaders disagree with the parents, and then church leaders typically want to exercise dominion and control.

With respect to the issue of homeschooling, we have home schooled our children, and are very committed to the merits of homeschooling. Within the past year, our daughter happened to meet one of Bishop Brian Fowles' sons at Snow College, and they ended up falling in love and getting married. I think Brian is a good man, and has a good family, but as parents our single biggest reservation about the whole scenario is their mainstream/public school orientation, including the prioritization and undue emphasis on sports, etc. My wife and I both grew up that way ourselves, and I went on to play college football, etc., but we've both had a huuuge change of heart along the way since then. What has now ended up happening in our family is something I've always been quite concerned about, and have seriously encouraged all our kids to give serious consideration, but you know happens when young people get swept off their feet and fall in love, etc. Our daughter is now pregnant, and I can already see a conflict coming down the road over the issue of homeschooling.

We have always dealt with a serious church bias against home schooling. If I ever had a bishop or church leader say anything negative to our kids about homeschooling, that would be the last time they would ever talk to our kids alone. Having a bishop undermine parents in their fundamental role makes my blood boil. Fortunately, based on our interactions over a few similar issues, I think our current bishop knows that and realizes that if he were to go there he might be biting off a lot more than he is prepared to chew. In our ward there are 4-5 homeschooling families, and I don't think there's much doubt in the bishop's mind that he would be incurring more wrath than he's prepared to deal with -- even if he wanted to. I'm very thankful for the strength that comes with numbers regarding such issues.

On an unrelated, but similar front, I'm something of a political activist, and I've had the same issue with church leaders attempting to micro-manage my political views and activities. We believe in liberty, and don't believe church leaders have any business trying to micro-manage members' lives and choices. They like to talk about agency, but again, there is often a huge gap between theory and reality.

[Fiannan]

While I believe questions about such things as masturbation are no longer the standard practice when a youth meets with a priesthood leader I would advise that parents speak with their kids and tell them that if a question is too personal they are not to answer it in a private meeting. If the kid brings it up then fine, but I once had a bishop that every one of the older teens in three wards used to talk about because he asked really weird questions in that regard.

[Obrien]

Because of the ages of my youngest two kids, in the last year or so they have had a fair amount of face time with the bishop. We have had a good guy, and he was happy that I have been present in all interviews recently. We just got a new bishop - also a good guy, but he's green. Today I went in with my youngest for a baptism interview. I was told it would just take a minute, and that the Bishop would get me from the hall when the interview was over. I told him "No, I'm staying in here. I'll sit next to my son, but he'll answer all your questions without help from me." It was obvious he had never had someone say "No" to him in his role as a bishop, and that he had never said "No" to a bishop in HIS life - he was visibly incredulous for about 3 seconds. Then he regained his composure, and we proceeded with the chat. I have no doubt that the interview would have been the same with or without my presence in the room. I know the new guy, and he's a good man, too. However, I am through allowing leaders to have formal one on one authority-based interviews with my kids. It will never happen again.

Thinker, this may sound naïve, but I hope if they "ever need to talk to the bishop" about something I already know about it. It's hard to keep lines of communication open, but it is important to have the channels open so your child will feel like they can talk to you about anything. Personally, I am not a big believer in confessing to a bishop, especially when Jesus is one prayer away. I strongly suspect my proclivities in this regard have been passed down by heredity and environment to my kiddos, but they are young and have not had a chance to stray too far into sin, yet. Time will tell how this plays out...

I have always been asked about potential callings prior to my child being asked. That is the only decent way to handle youth callings in my opinion. I would have a quite pointed talk with a leader who felt differently and extended a call without consulting me.

Long and short, children are the parent's responsibility, and allowing or seeking the church to intervene in that relationship is dead wrong. Be the grownup, and take responsibility for your relationship with your kids and the church leaders.

[Thinker]

Thanks again for your comments.

Obrien,
I can relate. I think the word, "No" is not in the church handbooks or any church manuals. ;) It is a foreign concept to many and it shows a little of the cult mentality. In this situation, it comes down to asserting my right as a parent to have authority over my kids.

We have a relatively new bishop who's a friend of ours we used to hang out with and I trust him in most ways, but I also sense he's a little power hungry - but overall a good guy. It was also another leader that went behind my back and a miscommunication, but still, I feel best about keeping my child out of this unique situation.

[FSM]

Just realized it was common procedure for church leaders to ask youth to accept callings, help lead overnight functions etc., before talking to the youth's parents. I learned this the hard way and have asserted my right to say NO TWICE (about the same thing) as a parent, especially when it was repeatedly attempted behind my back.

This is wrong on many levels.

Also, how appropriate is it for a child to be asked personal questions alone one-on-one with an adult without a parent present?
I imagine I'm not the only one who felt uncomfortable when I was interviewed by church leaders as a youth by myself in a room alone with them.

Parents are the legal, moral and spiritual guardians over their children - the church is not!

I totally agree. Especially about the close door thing with the youth. Why hide?

[djinwa]

The church trumps family, contrary to what is said.

In addition to interfering with our parenting, how about the leaders that get in the middle of a marriage. Secret meetings with wives about their husbands "porn problem" or his inactivity or whatever. Almost like a spouse is the third member of a threesome, church being the preferred partner - others are replaceable.

[wargames83]

It is not surprising to me that a highly hierarchical institution would have authoritarian leanings. Good for you guys for not blindly trusting people just because of their church calling. From what I understand this kind of misplaced trust is behind a lot of the fraud in Utah.

[Thinker]

The church trumps family, contrary to what is said.

In addition to interfering with our parenting, how about the leaders that get in the middle of a marriage. Secret meetings with wives about their husbands "porn problem" or his inactivity or whatever. Almost like a spouse is the third member of a threesome, church being the preferred partner - others are replaceable.

Yes, this brings to light a major dysfunctional approach, that is commonly taught and adopted in regards to relationships, especially marriage.

Easy come, easy go. Friendship and even marriage seem to be practically arranged - easily established largely based on religious superficially common ground. If and when one questions the "unquestionable," one can quickly realize the relationship was not so much about relating with each other, but more about being in the same group and adhering to the same beliefs. It is sad, even heart-breaking, when friends, even family and one's own spouse are willing to destroy a relationship simply because one no longer accepts a religion blindly.

It does make you feel replaceable. However, as a parent, I know I am not replaceable, so we're hanging in there. I hope to teach my children to establish a relationship that values growth above a group's limiting beliefs.

[Rose Garden]

That is the great challenge, in my opinion, making marriage a true familial relationship. All other relationships are ones you are born into. You can sever them but you can't reverse them. Your mother will always be your mother.

When people can learn to form bonds of love between their husband or wife and themselves that are as unbreakable as the bonds between parent and child, then they will have gained the type of understanding on which Zion is built.

[marktheshark]

The church trumps family, contrary to what is said.

In addition to interfering with our parenting, how about the leaders that get in the middle of a marriage. Secret meetings with wives about their husbands "porn problem" or his inactivity or whatever. Almost like a spouse is the third member of a threesome, church being the preferred partner - others are replaceable.

Bullcrap

[Lizzy60]

The church trumps family, contrary to what is said.

In addition to interfering with our parenting, how about the leaders that get in the middle of a marriage. Secret meetings with wives about their husbands "porn problem" or his inactivity or whatever. Almost like a spouse is the third member of a threesome, church being the preferred partner - others are replaceable.

Bullcrap

It's not bullcrap. It has happened in my family. My son lost his faith, while his wife (with his support) takes the children to church weekly. When they decided, as a couple, that they were going to wait to have their sons ordained to the PH, not only did they try to persuade her to change her husband's mind, trying to impress upon her the great harm they were doing, but when that didn't work, they next talked my husband, telling him that he had to change our son and his wife's decision, as a righteous father and grandfather. The dear man told him where he could shove it!! You can just imagine how our adult children felt when they discovered that their ward leaders (bishop and YM president) were talking to us behind their backs. A huge loss of trust, to be sure.

[Lizzy60]

Also, before it was generally known that our son was no longer a believer in the church, a high councilman took me, a woman, into a room alone with him, and then started grilling me on what we, as parents, were doing about our son's failure to pay tithing. I felt very uncomfortable, and cornered. Later, my husband had a few choice words with the guy.

This interference in family relationships is not bullcrap.

[samizdat]

The church trumps family, contrary to what is said.

In addition to interfering with our parenting, how about the leaders that get in the middle of a marriage. Secret meetings with wives about their husbands "porn problem" or his inactivity or whatever. Almost like a spouse is the third member of a threesome, church being the preferred partner - others are replaceable.

Bullcrap

It's not bullcrap. It has happened in my family. My son lost his faith, while his wife (with his support) takes the children to church weekly. When they decided, as a couple, that they were going to wait to have their sons ordained to the PH, not only did they try to persuade her to change her husband's mind, trying to impress upon her the great harm they were doing, but when that didn't work, they next talked my husband, telling him that he had to change our son and his wife's decision, as a righteous father and grandfather. The dear man told him where he could shove it!! You can just imagine how our adult children felt when they discovered that their ward leaders (bishop and YM president) were talking to us behind their backs. A huge loss of trust, to be sure.

The leader would have a point...if your son still lived with you. Otherwise, he has no point.

[SAM]

Also, how appropriate is it for a child to be asked personal questions alone one-on-one with an adult without a parent present? I imagine I'm not the only one who felt uncomfortable when I was interviewed by church leaders as a youth by myself in a room alone with them.

I really wish this weren't church practice. It's dangerous for both parties. I realize less confessions would happen, but I don't know how else you can protect the children / youth or the bishop. When my daughter was recently interviewed for her baptism my husband and I were in there with her. However, I know this changes when they reach YW / YM age. I think at least the door should remain open a crack. I don't think we'll let our children be interviewed alone with a bishopric member when they reach that age. I never had anything but wonderful and honorable men interview me, but I know not everyone has been that lucky, and, unfortunately, there are some youth that would falsely accuse bishops. It's just too scary these days. It's hard to trust anyone. I'd even venture to say a woman shouldn't go into an interview alone with a man unless that door is cracked. Super tough situation though when sensitive and confidential information is being discussed. I don't know a good solution.

[Fiannan]

Also, how appropriate is it for a child to be asked personal questions alone one-on-one with an adult without a parent present? I imagine I'm not the only one who felt uncomfortable when I was interviewed by church leaders as a youth by myself in a room alone with them.

I really wish this weren't church practice. It's dangerous for both parties. I realize less confessions would happen, but I don't know how else you can protect the children / youth or the bishop. When my daughter was recently interviewed for her baptism my husband and I were in there with her. However, I know this changes when they reach YW / YM age. I think at least the door should remain open a crack. I don't think we'll let our children be interviewed alone with a bishopric member when they reach that age. I never had anything but wonderful and honorable men interview me, but I know not everyone has been that lucky, and, unfortunately, there are some youth that would falsely accuse bishops. It's just too scary these days. It's hard to trust anyone. I'd even venture to say a woman shouldn't go into an interview alone with a man unless that door is cracked. Super tough situation though when sensitive and confidential information is being discussed. I don't know a good solution.

In my ward the bishop always has the clerk in the adjoining room while he interviews anyone. The clerk cannot overhear discussions but it does prevent any sort of appearance of evil that might occur.