LDS Freedom Forum

Daryl wrote:Is it ever ok to threaten people with blackmail? Like, "I will tell on you unless you do what I want you to do." Like "Unless you perform for me, I will make your life hell." Or like, "If you don't live up to what I want from you, I will embarress, humiliate, paint in the wost light, and spread nasty rumors about you." Is any of that ok? - NO

What if a person is known for doing that to multiple people. What if this goes on and on in such a manner? What can be done about it? - In the old days of a close community, shunning used to work really well. I guess we're only left with murder these days.

Daryl wrote:

freedomforall wrote: Blackmail is nothing more than a form of coercion is it not? God merely lays out the rules, we choose to either adhere to them or get left out in the cold.

Profound. Thank you.

Jezebel wrote:

Jules wrote:Isn't D&C 121 pretty clear on this?

I think so. Especially if you begin at the beginning of the chapter and put the whole thing into context. There was Joseph, in circumstances more horrendous than I can comprehend, crying to the Lord not for himself, but for his people collectively. And why? Because there were people willing to use force to make their point. Joseph was absolutely helpless in the hands of his captors with no other recourse than to cry to the Lord.

O God, where art thou? And where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place? How long shall thy hand be stayed, and thine eye, yea thy pure eye, behold from the eternal heavens the wrongs of thy people and of thy servants, and thine ear be penetrated with their cries?

His only consolation would be in believing the promises of the Lord.

My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment; And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes.

The Lord does not neglect to tell Joseph that his enemies will be destroyed eventually . . .
But he doesn't offer any hope of immediate relief.

What comfort, eh? No worries, Joseph. Yes, you'll be stuck there suffering unthinkable physical and spiritual horrors for some time to come but some day, no time in the near future, mind you, all your enemies are going to suffer even worse and you'll get some awesome reward. It will be a relatively small moment then, even though right now it seems all encompassing. Talk about long-suffering.

How could Joseph endure? What power had he to call on? Could he cast these evil men out of his association? He couldn't even get a fair court date. There was no one but the Lord for Joseph to call on and here the Lord is telling him, that he's got to wait. Don't Joseph's cries tell you he has already endured more than he can bear?

Hey, guess what Joseph? You get to keep enduring all this crap. You keep getting to hear stories about your loved ones being raped and murdered. You get to stay here in this stinking dungeon under the control of the men who would gleefully rape and murder your loved ones and you get to contemplate some distant future paradise that will be available to you. Just don't expect it any time soon.

Wow. Joseph knows what unrighteous dominion is, doesn't he? We're not talking about threats that are going to hurt his feelings and make him feel all embarrassed and humiliated. That too, but mostly we are talking about people who think they have the right to take another's physical life. Talk about blackmail. Do what I say or I am going to ravage your wife, throw her and your children out of their home in the middle of winter, and possibly even kill you, among other things.

And guess what, Joseph, while you are suffering all these things at their hands, I'm telling you that you have no priesthood power at all if you think you'll be justified in doing those things yourself. Nope. You get to practice long-suffering. (Haven't quite got it yet, have you?) You need to be kind and show love-unfeigned. You should only reprove others if you are moved upon by the spirit to do so and you are supposed to do it in a way that leads them to believe that your faithfulness to them are stronger than the bands of death. Double wow.

Power. Joseph sat there striped of any semblance of earthly power, listening to the Lord tell him he wouldn't be receiving any relief any time soon, and was taught the principles of true power.

What things of the world and honors of men are keeping you from true power?
What depth of humility are you willing to endure in order to learn?
What earthly dungeon do you need to be thrown into in order to understand the powers of heaven?
Enduring a little blackmail not doing if for ya? I'm sure the Lord could arrange for something a little more instructive.

And since we are talking about blackmail:
What sins are you undertaking to cover?
What vain ambition are you seeking to obtain?
What do you have yet that you are not willing to place in the hands of the Lord and allow him to strip from you, if it be his will?

Obrien wrote:

Daryl wrote:Is it ever ok to threaten people with blackmail? Like, "I will tell on you unless you do what I want you to do." Like "Unless you perform for me, I will make your life hell." Or like, "If you don't live up to what I want from you, I will embarress, humiliate, paint in the wost light, and spread nasty rumors about you." Is any of that ok? - NO

What if a person is known for doing that to multiple people. What if this goes on and on in such a manner? What can be done about it? - In the old days of a close community, shunning used to work really well. I guess we're only left with murder these days.

boo wrote: No if he trys to extort something having monetary value it is a potential felony in most states and may result in jail time in excess of a year,

BDS wrote:

Jezebel wrote:

Jules wrote:Isn't D&C 121 pretty clear on this?

I think so. Especially if you begin at the beginning of the chapter and put the whole thing into context. There was Joseph, in circumstances more horrendous than I can comprehend, crying to the Lord not for himself, but for his people collectively. And why? Because there were people willing to use force to make their point. Joseph was absolutely helpless in the hands of his captors with no other recourse than to cry to the Lord.

O God, where art thou? And where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place? How long shall thy hand be stayed, and thine eye, yea thy pure eye, behold from the eternal heavens the wrongs of thy people and of thy servants, and thine ear be penetrated with their cries?

His only consolation would be in believing the promises of the Lord.

My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment; And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes.

The Lord does not neglect to tell Joseph that his enemies will be destroyed eventually . . .
But he doesn't offer any hope of immediate relief.

What comfort, eh? No worries, Joseph. Yes, you'll be stuck there suffering unthinkable physical and spiritual horrors for some time to come but some day, no time in the near future, mind you, all your enemies are going to suffer even worse and you'll get some awesome reward. It will be a relatively small moment then, even though right now it seems all encompassing. Talk about long-suffering.

How could Joseph endure? What power had he to call on? Could he cast these evil men out of his association? He couldn't even get a fair court date. There was no one but the Lord for Joseph to call on and here the Lord is telling him, that he's got to wait. Don't Joseph's cries tell you he has already endured more than he can bear?

Hey, guess what Joseph? You get to keep enduring all this crap. You keep getting to hear stories about your loved ones being raped and murdered. You get to stay here in this stinking dungeon under the control of the men who would gleefully rape and murder your loved ones and you get to contemplate some distant future paradise that will be available to you. Just don't expect it any time soon.

Wow. Joseph knows what unrighteous dominion is, doesn't he? We're not talking about threats that are going to hurt his feelings and make him feel all embarrassed and humiliated. That too, but mostly we are talking about people who think they have the right to take another's physical life. Talk about blackmail. Do what I say or I am going to ravage your wife, throw her and your children out of their home in the middle of winter, and possibly even kill you, among other things.

And guess what, Joseph, while you are suffering all these things at their hands, I'm telling you that you have no priesthood power at all if you think you'll be justified in doing those things yourself. Nope. You get to practice long-suffering. (Haven't quite got it yet, have you?) You need to be kind and show love-unfeigned. You should only reprove others if you are moved upon by the spirit to do so and you are supposed to do it in a way that leads them to believe that your faithfulness to them are stronger than the bands of death. Double wow.

Power. Joseph sat there striped of any semblance of earthly power, listening to the Lord tell him he wouldn't be receiving any relief any time soon, and was taught the principles of true power.

What things of the world and honors of men are keeping you from true power?
What depth of humility are you willing to endure in order to learn?
What earthly dungeon do you need to be thrown into in order to understand the powers of heaven?
Enduring a little blackmail not doing if for ya? I'm sure the Lord could arrange for something a little more instructive.

And since we are talking about blackmail:
What sins are you undertaking to cover?
What vain ambition are you seeking to obtain?
What do you have yet that you are not willing to place in the hands of the Lord and allow him to strip from you, if it be his will?

Ok, interesting take on the subject at hand. The question Daryl posed was is it OK to black mail a person? You have correctly shown how Joseph dealt with opposition, but this doesn't answer the question. If Joseph wasn't trying to control those who opposed him, is there justification for a person to try and control another person? Joseph learned and grew from the opposition, but does that mean the ones persecuting him were justified? The question of the OP is asking if the persecutors were correct in doing what they did, not was Joseph correct in how he dealt with them. Black mail is an attempt to control an outcome, and there is no way to justify the means because you might think that good will come from it in the end.

Bee Prepared wrote:

Daryl wrote:Is it ever ok to threaten people with blackmail? Like, "I will tell on you unless you do what I want you to do." Like "Unless you perform for me, I will make your life hell." Or like, "If you don't live up to what I want from you, I will embarress, humiliate, paint in the wost light, and spread nasty rumors about you." Is any of that ok?

What if a person is known for doing that to multiple people. What if this goes on and on in such a manner? What can be done about it?

You have to ask if it's ok?
I believe there is an underlying agenda to this topic.

djinwa wrote:I have often pondered this issue. Someone mentioned God just lays out the options and you get to choose the benefits or consequences.

I understand natural consequences, but when you impose consequences to get your desired action from another person, that is artificial coercion.

Take an 8 year old child. They are still completely dependent on family for survival, and then we tell them that they can only be with their families if they follow the church. In other words, they will be separated from family if they don't. Someone explain how that is a natural consequence? Why can't people in the CK visit those in the lower kingdoms and vice versa? Why can't those in mansions visit the trailer parks?

I don't see the threat of separation from family as a natural consequence, but rather a way to coerce us into making a certain choice, which was the strategy of Satan.

I mean, if you put a gun to someone's head, the result is not a natural consequence. Rather an artificial method of inducing fear.

Likewise, we effectively put guns to people's heads by pressuring them to make certain choices. People fear rejection as death, because they are dependent on the herd for survival. Clearly parents would treat their children differently if they don't choose the church. Many families or ward members cut off ties with those who aren't active.

So, yes, there is a lot of pressure and threats and blackmail going on that we don't think about. Sometimes I wonder if most of our decisions are based on how others will react, and whether we will lose status or be rejected.

I can't imagine why most 8 year olds wouldn't prefer playing in the park to going to church, so something must be making them do it.

Daryl wrote:

Bee Prepared wrote:

Daryl wrote:Is it ever ok to threaten people with blackmail? Like, "I will tell on you unless you do what I want you to do." Like "Unless you perform for me, I will make your life hell." Or like, "If you don't live up to what I want from you, I will embarress, humiliate, paint in the wost light, and spread nasty rumors about you." Is any of that ok?

What if a person is known for doing that to multiple people. What if this goes on and on in such a manner? What can be done about it?

You have to ask if it's ok?
I believe there is an underlying agenda to this topic.

No agenda. Sincere question. Not related to any of the PTB. (PTB = powers that be) PTB in the institution or elsewhere. Sincerer question.

A Random Phrase wrote: Or that you have learned to have a thick skin.

Bee Prepared wrote: LDS critics are the worst blackmailers.

Critics tend to emotionally blackmail members. The critic is aggressive toward the lds defender and when the lds member aggressively defends the church, the critic cries foul by exclaiming that such aggression is unchristlike, thereby making the member feel guilty. I have seen this often on the boards. Only critics can exhibit passion while members need to be neutered. Emotional blackmail
is a great weapon to make apologists feel guilty.

But apparently some aggressive critics can't be charged with that because, well, only Mormons can be hypocrites in their eyes.

For people who no longer believe, to use the Christ-card is case of emotional blackmail. It means that they cannot win the argument but they can attempt to silence the lds member or make the lds member less passionate in the post.

But we can also look at internet boards. How many defenders do we have on that are limited in their responses? And why? Have the mods been emotionally blackmailed? When a defender is harsh with a critic, do lds members report this person to the mods and the mods then put the person on limited or banned from the thread because of unchristlike behavior? This accusation is used over and over again toward defenders of the church when they become passionate about what they are writing. So, in a way, the game is rigged on the side of the critic.

Daryl wrote:

Bee Prepared wrote: LDS critics are the worst blackmailers.

Critics tend to emotionally blackmail members. The critic is aggressive toward the lds defender and when the lds member aggressively defends the church, the critic cries foul by exclaiming that such aggression is unchristlike, thereby making the member feel guilty. I have seen this often on the boards. Only critics can exhibit passion while members need to be neutered. Emotional blackmail
is a great weapon to make apologists feel guilty.

But apparently some aggressive critics can't be charged with that because, well, only Mormons can be hypocrites in their eyes.

For people who no longer believe, to use the Christ-card is case of emotional blackmail. It means that they cannot win the argument but they can attempt to silence the lds member or make the lds member less passionate in the post.

But we can also look at internet boards. How many defenders do we have on that are limited in their responses? And why? Have the mods been emotionally blackmailed? When a defender is harsh with a critic, do lds members report this person to the mods and the mods then put the person on limited or banned from the thread because of unchristlike behavior? This accusation is used over and over again toward defenders of the church when they become passionate about what they are writing. So, in a way, the game is rigged on the side of the critic.

If I have ever done this, I am sorry. Sincerely sorry.
I believe you. However I'm not sure what you are saying. Either way, I am sorry for any anguish I have caused.

A Random Phrase wrote:Bee, I think Daryl was being sincere. I don't think he was making a fake apology.

black·mail
ˈblakˌmāl
noun
noun: blackmail
1.
the action, treated as a criminal offense, of demanding money from a person in return for not revealing compromising or injurious information about that person.
"they were acquitted of charges of blackmail"
synonyms: extortion; More
money demanded from a person in return for not revealing injurious information.
"we do not pay blackmail"
the use of threats or the manipulation of someone's feelings to force them to do something.
"out of fear, she submitted to Jim's emotional blackmail"
verb
verb: blackmail; 3rd person present: blackmails; past tense: blackmailed; past participle: blackmailed; gerund or present participle: blackmailing
1.
demand money from (a person) in return for not revealing compromising or injurious information about that person.
"trying to blackmail him for $400,000"
synonyms: extort money from, threaten; informaldemand hush money from
"he was blackmailing the murderer"
force (someone) to do something by using threats or manipulating their feelings.
"he had blackmailed her into sailing with him"
synonyms: coerce, pressurize, pressure, force; More