LDS Freedom Forum

For more than 4,000 years of covenantal history, this has been the pattern: Flee and seek. Run and settle. Escape Babylon. Build Zion’s protective walls. Until this, our day.

One of the many unique characteristics of our dispensation is the changing nature of how we establish the kingdom of God on earth. This dispensation is a time of mighty, accelerated change. And one thing that has changed is that the Church of God will never again flee.


(The Call to Be Christlike, Ensign June 2014)

Wait. Did I miss something?

It seems that Holland trumps Isaiah.

Gathering is not fleeing so technically Gods people could move and gather without fleeing per se.

mirkwood wrote: (The Call to Be Christlike, Ensign June 2014)

We must have been on vacation when this issue came out. I really enjoyed this talk and it really helped me feel some peace. Thanks!

The examples Elder Holland uses are of a Zion vs. Babylon nature. Fleeing persecution. He says that that stops now. Our new model is:

"Zion is everywhere—wherever the Church is. And with that change, we no longer think of Zion as where we are going to live; we think of it as how we are going to live."

"No, we can’t do everything, but we can do something. And in answer to God’s call, the children of Israel are the ones to do it—not to flee Babylon this time but to attack it. "

Elder Holland's message is about changing the way we are, about becoming a Zion people, so that no matter where we are we can establish Zion. We don't have to relocate to establish Zion. That goes along with the concept of bloom where you are planted:

23 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard said unto his servant: Look hither; behold I have planted another branch of the tree also; and thou knowest that this spot of ground was poorer than the first. But, behold the tree. I have nourished it this long time, and it hath brought forth much fruit; therefore, gather it, and lay it up against the season, that I may preserve it unto mine own self.
(Jacob 5:23)

I have also heard/read a few talks from the Brethren preparing us for a day of persecution. That goes along with staying where we are.

What Elder Holland's article doesn't address is how we can avoid being destroyed when the wrath of God is poured out on our nation. Do the scriptures tell us what to do when, as Brigham Young stated, great cities sink into the earth entombing the inhabitants? Wouldn't we want to leave those cities before they are destroyed?

Sinking cities seems to be the tip of the iceberg:

6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;
(Doctrine and Covenants 87:6)

There is one more subject that isn't covered by the article. The New Jerusalem will be built by the gathering of the saints, and that means relocation:

4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
(Doctrine and Covenants 84:4)

As usual, Elder Holland gave us great counsel. The question I have is, does it preclude a gathering for any purpose? Even a temporary one as a means of protection against the day of His wrath?

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 18, p. 355-356, April 6, 1877.

“Are we going back to Jackson County? Yes. When? As soon as the way opens up. Are we all going? O no! of course not. The country is not large enough to hold our present numbers. When we do return there, will there be any less remaining in these mountains than we number today? No, there may be a hundred then for every single one that there is now. It is folly in men to suppose that we are going to break up these our hard earned homes to make others in a new country. We intend to hold our own here, and also penetrate the north and south, the east and the west, there to make others and to raise the ensign of truth.”

The Mormon Rapture just isn't true.

Lizzy60 wrote:It seems that Holland trumps Isaiah.

Yes, he does. Joseph Smith Jr. taught that. If he were alive today he would tell you Elder Holland trumps Isaiah; but the point is moot to what you said because Isaiah never said anything that can be definitively interpreted as the LDS church PHYSICALLY calling out the members to go live in tents in the woods in some sort of odd LDS version of the rapture.

http://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/quotes ... pture.html

I will refer to a certain meeting I attended in the town of Kirtland in my early days. At that meeting some remarks were made that have been made here today, with regard to the living oracles and with regard to the written word of God. The same principle was presented, although not as extensively as it has been here, when a leading man in the Church got up and talked upon the subject, and said: “You have got the word of God before you here in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants; you have the written word of God, and you who give revelations should give revelations according to those books, as what is written in those books is the word of God. We should confine ourselves to them.” When he concluded, Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, “Brother Brigham I want you to take the stand and tell us your views with regard to the written oracles and the written word of God.” Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: “There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day.” “And now,” said he, “when compared with the living oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the [p.23]writing in the books.” That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: “Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth.” Wilford Woodruff (Conference Report, October 1897, p.22)

This IS LDS belief and teaching, whether you choose to accept it or not.

I do NOT believe in a "Mormon Rapture" nor do I believe that the CHURCH will issue a callout to tent cities or whatever. I do believe that God will individually instruct certain individuals to build Zion, both spiritually and physically, prior to His Second Coming. Personal revelation is the most important connection we have to the will of the Lord.

Speaking to those who see themselves staying put during the calamities.

Yeah, just get on YouTube and type in New Orleans Katrina, Or LA riots. You Stay home during the Calamities and make yourself subject to the world and its Justice, Gee I'm sure The Saints in New Orleans stayed home while, New Orleans was Destroyed. Run towards the Dome, and go wait for your bus. Did you forget???

Better Yet It was just a coincidence when The Missionaries were called to a zone Conference when Japan got hit and they were taken away from harm, The Lord moves his saints to protect them. Are you that attached to the world that you wish to stay with the Mobs and the destruction? Have at it.

I know what's coming I have seen how people react to the calamities. I'm sure when Lehi Told the Jews Jerusalem was going to be destroyed that they responded as you do.

. Wake up! America needs to be cleansed prior to Zion being built, Read the proclamation to the Family the Scriptures, Past and present prophets.

Lizzy60 wrote:It seems that Holland trumps Isaiah.

He's more recent, Liz...Remember your 14 fundamentals (Living trumps dead...)

I suspect we should may see an edit in the next edition of the BoM 3 Nephi 23:1.

mirkwood wrote:Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 18, p. 355-356, April 6, 1877.

“Are we going back to Jackson County? Yes. When? As soon as the way opens up. Are we all going? O no! of course not. The country is not large enough to hold our present numbers. When we do return there, will there be any less remaining in these mountains than we number today? No, there may be a hundred then for every single one that there is now. It is folly in men to suppose that we are going to break up these our hard earned homes to make others in a new country. We intend to hold our own here, and also penetrate the north and south, the east and the west, there to make others and to raise the ensign of truth.”

The Mormon Rapture just isn't true.

When those earthquakes come that the church is preparing for in Utah, I hope that I am somewhere else, far far away.
When plague hits our area, I hope that I am somewhere else.
When invading armies come (George Albert Smith is not the only church president who knew of this), I hope that I am somewhere else.


Joseph Fielding Smith said the following:

"If the signs of the coming of our Lord were apparent in the days of the Prophet, surely we have evidence today that the great day of his coming is drawing very near, for the signs have multiplied a thousand fold. The Prophet continues his discourse and declares, that the Lord had commanded the gathering of his people. "Some may have cried peace, but the saints and the world will have little peace henceforth. Let them not hinder us from going to the stakes; for God has told us to flee, not dallying, or we shall be scattered, one here, and another there. There your children shall be blessed, and you in the midst of friends where you may be blessed. The Gospel net gathers of every kind.""

This day seems to be in the future, as simply joining the church doesn't quite qualify as fleeing to the stakes. In addition, Harold B. Lee stated that the time for gathering to Utah had ended, and that people should be gathering in their own nations.

Anyway, I am not suggesting that I know what is coming. I do believe that the patterns in the Book of Mormon, and the statements by Joseph Smith should not be treated lightly. Every word in that book was put there by God for a reason, treating it lightly brought the whole church under condemnation.

Preparing for a possible temporary relocation will prepare us for just about anything that is coming. Why not do it?

Guys, it is more like a call-in or a gathering, rather than a call out.

The Jews have had their call of aliyah yesterday by the leader of Israel...

Prophecy of Heber C. Kimball:

I am very thankful that so many of the brethren have come in with handcarts; my soul rejoiced, my heart was filled and grew as big as a two-bushel basket. Two companies have come through safe and sound. Is this the end of it? No; there will be millions on millions that will come much in the same way, only they will not have handcarts, for they will take their bundles under their arms, and their children on their backs, and under their arms and flee. (Source: Journal of Discourses, 4:106)

Refugees will flow into the Rocky Mountain region, the area with the densest LDS populations, to escape the depradations of the last days. They will come to us seeking refuge and food. We will put them up in our homes and on our lands and feed them. Just as is stated in Matt 25:35, For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in.

We are preparing ourselves and if capable, those who will flee the calamities that befall the rest of the nation.

We may be asked by our Stake President or Bishop to take into our homes a needy family who has just arrived from the east as President Kimball stated above.

The Mormon Rapture, aka tent cities aka call out, just isn't true.