LDS Freedom Forum

If an apostle felt he was unfit (health/family/other) to handle his calling, can he resign?
If he resigned what would he be forfeiting (if anything).
Has this happened in our history?

jockeybox wrote:If an apostle felt he was unfit (health/family/other) to handle his calling, can he resign?
If he resigned what would he be forfeiting (if anything).
Has this happened in our history?

They'd probably encourage him to dramatically reduce the demands on his time before letting him go. Some of the brethren, either when really sick or really old, went without work for a long time.

If an Apostle wants out of his calling, why would it not be honored? All church callings are volunteer and there is nothing keeping anyone in a calling, even an Apostle, except the desire to serve. Then again, the church is currently set-up like a corporation with the First Presidency and Q of the 12 basically acting as the Board of Directors and the Q of the 70 acting as Officers and so maybe there are some other things to consider when someone wants out?

I don't believe they have a "reasonable" option of resigning because the assumption among many members would be that they had been found out to guilty of some sort of transgression and encouraged to resign. Although not true, some members would think this to be the case, because they would not be able to conceive of a man giving up the position of apostle just because of illness, etc.

After reading "The Book of Enoch the Prophet" if I was one of the Twelve and Seventy Shepherds I would definitely seek to become joined with the Jews, and say let them be the Bishops where possible and administers of the assets donated of the faithful Saints until Christ comes to administer.

The highest office of just below the Twelve and Seventy I would only keep in place and run the church completely by common consent of the members until Jesus Christ comes to rule and reign.

I would seriously consider how the Jews do not currently claim to have a prophet as they acknowledge that not one of them has met with God lately yet they as a people still are united to God, and they have his promise that he is coming to bless them as their Messiah.

That if any today can claim as Joseph Smith testified that he had met God and Jesus Christ and Moroni more times than any man alive can claim to have talked personally, and at length, even all night long as when Moroni first met with Joseph Smith then they can testify of such.

Otherwise it is just a passing of title of prophet, seer and revelator from one man to another but that is all until that man seeks the face of God like Melchizedek and Enoch and Noah and others that testify that they have met and talked face to face, nothing but the truth in humility.

I would not want the words of Enoch to be about me.

Not one of the Jews need to worry as none claim to be a prophet or a twelve and seventy shepherds.

I would definitely seek to join with Judah as one under God indivisible with liberty and justice and righteousness and inheritances for all seeking to sanctify and purify our hearts together as is written in the book of Joel and in Ezekiel 37: 15-23.

Then once the Lord was pleased and our offerings of broken hearts and contrite spirits before him were accepted, that we had brought his bride out of the closet clothed with equity and justice and righteousness and goodness and equality and purity of heart, that he would finally come and say "Here I am" and bless us even as with Peter and his fellow apostles were. ♡ ♡

Emeritus status is sometimes given......basically a release from that calling. Paul H. Dunn comes to mind, a powerful speaker from my youth, and one to have been found to make up his own "parables".

idahommie wrote:Emeritus status is sometimes given......basically a release from that calling. Paul H. Dunn comes to mind, a powerful speaker from my youth, and one to have been found to make up his own "parables".

I've only heard of emeritus status for a member of the Seventy. I've not heard of an Apostle doing anything except being exed or dying.

Lizzy60 wrote:

idahommie wrote:Emeritus status is sometimes given......basically a release from that calling. Paul H. Dunn comes to mind, a powerful speaker from my youth, and one to have been found to make up his own "parables".

I've only heard of emeritus status for a member of the Seventy. I've not heard of an Apostle doing anything except being exed or dying.

You're right, I was not thinking Apostle but General Authority, my bad......

As long as the auto pen has ink, I think the corp could go on perpetually.
Being a corporation sole, the President is probably the only guy that HAS to stay around. Of course, he could assign his authority to someone, I suppose. It would probably cause quite a rift in the church.

idahommie wrote:Emeritus status is sometimes given......basically a release from that calling. Paul H. Dunn comes to mind, a powerful speaker from my youth, and one to have been found to make up his own "parables".

You know, I think Jesus made up most of His parables. I've never thought they were based on fact. They were just make believe stories with a really good point and usually several layers of meaning. Does that lessen their impact? I don't think so. I, too, was affected by PD's talks as a youth. He is the only general authority I ever wrote to, until recently.

There was a man, last name Dyer, who was counselor in the First Presidency for a small while, then he went back to being a Seventy. This was in the 70s and his name registers in GC talks from the epoch.

jockeybox wrote:If an apostle felt he was unfit (health/family/other) to handle his calling, can he resign?
If he resigned what would he be forfeiting (if anything).
Has this happened in our history?

It certainly happened in early church history.
And in more recent times Richard Lyman had to, in effect, resign.

samizdat wrote:There was a man, last name Dyer, who was counselor in the First Presidency for a small while, then he went back to being a Seventy. This was in the 70s and his name registers in GC talks from the epoch.

Alvin Dyer never served as a member of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles. He was an Assistant to the Twelve and had been ordained to the office of Apostle. He then served as a counsellor to David O McKay until Pres McKay's death. He again served as an Assistant to the Twelve until that calling was discontinued and was then called to the First Quorum of Seventy.

Robin Hood wrote:

jockeybox wrote:If an apostle felt he was unfit (health/family/other) to handle his calling, can he resign?
If he resigned what would he be forfeiting (if anything).
Has this happened in our history?

It certainly happened in early church history.
And in more recent times Richard Lyman had to, in effect, resign.

Elder Richard R Lyman was excommunicated after being caught in bed with a woman who wasn't his wife. He is the last member of the Twelve to have been excommunicated. The most recent excommunication of a General Authority was George P Lee of the Seventy.

John W Taylor (President John Taylor's son) resigned from the quorum of the twelve. Matthias Cowley was basically also forced out. Drew Briney's book, Apostles on Trial, is a great book about this.

In searching this a little more, I did find some circumstances where several early church apostles did resign for a variety of reasons and one occasion where Young asked Pratt to resign (but he didn't).

In reading Quinn's book Origins of Power, I found these paragraphs interesting:

At age seventy in March 1941, Apostle Richard R. Lyman was the first to propose "retirement" for members of the Quorum of Twelve. However, no one else at this meeting of the First Presidency and Twelve was willing to discuss his suggestion. More influential was Apostle Hugh B. Brown's recommendation for apostolic and presidential retirement in the early 1970s.

Brown's proposal included "members of the Quorum of the Twelve and the First Presidency," which, he acknowledged, "would have affected the line of succession to the presidency of the church." Nearly ninety, he recommended an age for retirement that would have required him to be the first emeritus apostle or presidency member. He made this recommendation sometime after the death of ninety-five-year-old President Joseph Fielding Smith in July 1972, when Brown was left as the oldest living general authority.

Brown died three years before the First Presidency adopted his recommendation in part. In October 1978, the presidency released general authorities from active service and assigned them to "emeritus status." This allows the replacement of aging or incapacitated general authorities by more vigorous men. So far this administrative procedure has applied to all presiding quorums except the First Presidency and Twelve. Although aging apostles have asked to be released during the past sixty years, the First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve have declined their requests.

I actually really like to idea of retirement. They are honorable released and able to carry on the later years of their life without the heavy burden that is the church.

I would assume the concern for someone in the 12 asking to be released is that would give a window many lay members asking to be released.

I think many like the badge of honor that they wear, noting they've never asked to be released from any calling.

why do you ask?

Your post got me thinking about resignation and emeritus standing. There seems to be a pattern found in The Book of Mormon and D&C with regard to Kingship and Joseph's successor. Although this doesn't refer to apostleship, it's rather quite interesting food for thought.

29 And moreover, I say unto you that I have caused that ye should assemble yourselves together, that I might declare unto you that I can no longer be your teacher, nor your king;

30 For even at this time, my whole frame doth tremble exceedingly while attempting to speak unto you; but the Lord God doth support me, and hath suffered me that I should speak unto you, and hath commanded me that I should declare unto you this day, that my son Mosiah is a king and a ruler over you.

9 Now Nephi began to be old, and he saw that he must soon die; wherefore, he anointed a man to be a king and a ruler over his people now, according to the reigns of the kings.

10 Now king Mosiah had no one to confer the kingdom upon, for there was not any of his sons who would accept of the kingdom . . . 20 And now, as I said unto you, that after king Mosiah had done these things, he took the plates of brass, and all the things which he had kept, and conferred them upon Alma, who was the son of Alma; yea, all the records, and also the interpreters, and conferred them upon him, and commanded him that he should keep and preserve them, and also keep a record of the people, handing them down from one generation to another, even as they had been handed down from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem.

3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.

4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

If Hyrum had lived he would not have stood between Joseph and the Twelve but he would have stood for Joseph.-Did Joseph ordain any man to take his place? He did. Who was it? It was Hyrum, but, Hyrum fell a martyr before Joseph did. If Hyrum had lived he would have acted for Joseph B.Young, 10/06/1844

According to Joseph Smith's private secretary William Clayton, Joseph had "said that if he and Hyrum were taken away, Samuel H. Smith would be his successor."

North_Star wrote:why do you ask?

I was just pondering their responsibilities and wonder if they reach a point when they appear to not have a choice.
I understand they ultimately can choose, but the social pressure must be surmounting.

Could you imagine the uproar if one of the 12 resigned? People would assume worthiness issues, loss of testimony or something severe.
He likely would be treated as weak and accused of not being able to "endure to the end".

I kind of wish they had some options, but I don't know if our culture would allow it.

dewajack wrote:Your post got me thinking about resignation and emeritus standing. There seems to be a pattern found in The Book of Mormon and D&C with regard to Kingship and Joseph's successor. Although this doesn't refer to apostleship, it's rather quite interesting food for thought.

I hadn't even made it to the scriptures yet. Thanks for posting those. It's interesting to read.

Regarding Joseph Smith naming a successor. There are accounts of many people claiming Joseph named them. Williams Marks and Sidney Rigdon had some right to lead. Brigham Young leaned toward Joseph's first born (name escapes me at the moment). When he didn't trek to Utah or support polygamy, then Young thought Joseph Smith Jr. III would take it. He also wasn't to keen on polygamy and Young was happy manning the ship until he died.

jockeybox wrote:

North_Star wrote:why do you ask?

I was just pondering their responsibilities and wonder if they reach a point when they appear to not have a choice.
I understand they ultimately can choose, but the social pressure must be surmounting.

Could you imagine the uproar if one of the 12 resigned? People would assume worthiness issues, loss of testimony or something severe.
He likely would be treated as weak and accused of not being able to "endure to the end".

I kind of wish they had some options, but I don't know if our culture would allow it.

No one expects an apostle to do anything beyond what he is physically capable of doing. If an apostle is ill in his final days, he is excused from performing any of the normal duties that would be expected of him. Illness is no reason to be released.

I believe that there is a great deal of social pressure for apostles to remain in the positions they are called to. If they resigned, it would have to be for some reason other than a physical or even mental inability to perform their calling. I think it would have to be either because they felt unworthy to continue for some reason or because they no longer believed in the organization and felt morally obligated to resign. Is there another plausible reason?

I would worry over what is written in The Book of Enoch the Prophet, that these things written are true, that the Twelve and Seventy Shepherds destroy all the blind sheep and they both are to be judged, found guilty, and thrust into the fiery abyss.

That they together, or any one of Twelve and Seventy themselves, begin to weep and howl, and sound the alarm and blow the trumpet in Zion, about the perversion of equity and desolation of being equal in our temporal things and this not grudgingly, and the vineyard stripped of the bark and the pastures and fields of righteousness died up.

I would not want to be in their position and to suddenly realize of what Enoch has foretold thousands of years ago of the latter days was for me, As well as what Moroni testified to Joseph Smith 4 times in less than a 24 hour period all night long and then once more in the morning out in the field of the words of the prophet Joel.

I only would not worry if the Saints were all equal in their temporal things with every single one of the sheep having their own houses and lands and food and raiment sufficient for their wants and needs.

Because they are not equal, I would tremble and get on my knees and pray unto God that he would spare us a little bit longer, that we might labor to get it right, and keep all his commandments which he has given us, as is written in Jacob 5 of the words of Zenos of the vineyard at the last. ♡ ♡

If none of the other Twelve or Seventy Shepherds would awaken I would ask to resign and with a broken heart give my reasons.

But then I would raise my voice day and night crying and howling and sounding the alarm and blowing the trumpet in Zion that the old men and other administers of the law of God and the Tithes might just awaken and pull back from the fiery abyss spoken of by Enoch our ancient grandfather who built the first city of Zion. ♡ ♡

BenMcCrea wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:

jockeybox wrote:If an apostle felt he was unfit (health/family/other) to handle his calling, can he resign?
If he resigned what would he be forfeiting (if anything).
Has this happened in our history?

It certainly happened in early church history.
And in more recent times Richard Lyman had to, in effect, resign.

Elder Richard R Lyman was excommunicated after being caught in bed with a woman who wasn't his wife. He is the last member of the Twelve to have been excommunicated. The most recent excommunication of a General Authority was George P Lee of the Seventy.

He had had a relationship with the woman for decades. He regarded her as a plural wife.
As far as I understand, he wasn't caught out, he actually came clean. He knew it would mean excommunication. So as I said, in effect, he resigned.

If they are not willing to impart of the Tithes and Offerings without any grudgingly behavior, unto the poor and needy among us, to see that the fruits are equal in their temporal things, as every single last one ought to, as brethern willing to keep the commandments of God, then they should resign before being destroyed along with their blind sheep as is written in "The Book of Enoch the Prophet."

And put in their place by common consent of the members instead, those that will keep the commandments of God given to his own Church, that we be equal in our temporal things and this not grudgingly.

I will hope and pray that they will soon say,

"What have I to do anymore with idols?"

That there shall be no such need to so do by the members, nor the Lord in his wrath, in the time soon to fall upon all, the unequal members of his house, and vineyard of fruit most bitter, and lofty, and rich, while the poor are oppressed and burdened, and yoked and suffer.

And finally return to keep the commandments of God given to his own Church, and teach and live to be equal in our temporal things and this not grudgingly by seeing that for houses and for lands, as well as for food and for raiment, all have sufficient for the support of their own selves and their families.

That we may all rejoice and be glad, knowing that the Lord will do great things for us then, coming to us finally saying, "Here I am". ♡ ♡