LDS Freedom Forum

You guys know the Abraham and Isaac story. Where Abraham was asked by god to sacrifice his son Isaac. Well put yourself in Abraham shoes and please answer these 2 questions. I have asked myself them for years and responded in some pretty unholy ways.
If God asked you to sacrifice your child would you do it?
If not would you feel guilt about disobeying God?

FSM wrote:You guys know the Abraham and Isaac story. Where Abraham was asked by god to sacrifice his son Isaac. Well put yourself in Abraham shoes and please answer these 2 questions. I have asked myself them for years and responded in some pretty unholy ways.
If God asked you to sacrifice your child would you do it? If not would you feel guilt about disobeying God?

One of many fairly horrifying Old Testament stories. I wonder if it actually happened. It's hard for me to believe God would make such a request.

KMCopeland wrote:

FSM wrote:You guys know the Abraham and Isaac story. Where Abraham was asked by god to sacrifice his son Isaac. Well put yourself in Abraham shoes and please answer these 2 questions. I have asked myself them for years and responded in some pretty unholy ways.
If God asked you to sacrifice your child would you do it? If not would you feel guilt about disobeying God?

One of many fairly horrifying Old Testament stories. I wonder if it actually happened. It's hard for me to believe God would make such a request.

I know that's why its hard for me to believe in that kind of God.

FSM wrote:

KMCopeland wrote:

FSM wrote:You guys know the Abraham and Isaac story. Where Abraham was asked by god to sacrifice his son Isaac. Well put yourself in Abraham shoes and please answer these 2 questions. I have asked myself them for years and responded in some pretty unholy ways.
If God asked you to sacrifice your child would you do it? If not would you feel guilt about disobeying God?

One of many fairly horrifying Old Testament stories. I wonder if it actually happened. It's hard for me to believe God would make such a request.

I know that's why its hard for me to believe in that kind of God.

Hugh Nibley said that when we come across something in scripture that offends our understanding of God, we should just discard it.

It would depend on my relationship with God. Right now, the answers would be, no, and not very much.

If I saw an angel take me off an altar, and had other reasons and practice for invincible faith.. . and if I knew 100% that it was God commanding. I'd have to consider it after having a fight with the big man upstairs.

If God asked you to sacrifice your child would you do it?

- He would have to fully convince me that it is a right and good thing to do. If my child is innocent and blameless before God, and the only reason for the sacrifice was to somehow prove my faithfulness- then I'm afraid it's completely out of the question. There are better ways of proving faithfulness...like, I don't know, NOT shedding innocent blood?

If not would you feel guilt about disobeying God?

- Doubt it. I'd gladly accept my punishment in such a case.

I don't know exactly what happened with the Abraham & Issac story so I make no judgement there.

Not sure I agree with Hugh. I've learned the most from things that offend me.

If God asked me to slice my child open with a knife on an alter, I wouldn't be able to do it. I've never killed anything in my life. It's not a matter of my willingness to follow God or not. It's a matter of what I can and can't do. I wouldn't feel bad if the Lord asked me and I told him I couldn't do it.

However, there are a hundred other things the Lord might ask me to do that I would be able to do, that would qualify as things that are not considered "good" by pretty much any reasonable society on earth. I have done some of those things in my desire to be obedient to God.

In every case, the Lord shows me why it is necessary to do those things and persuades me to do them. I am convinced that those things were necessary in order to bring about greater good. They are always an act of love.

I think Nephi's example of killing Laban is easier to understand. We have his discussion with the Spirit in which he was persuaded to do it. He did it because he understood that there was a greater purpose. He loved his family and his future prosperity enough to overcome his reluctance in killing Laban.

We don't have anything like that with Abraham. I'm convinced, though, that he must have had some sort of conversation with the Lord about it. I highly doubt he would have just said, "Sure, no problem. I'll kill my only son--the one I waited for for so long." I believe the Lord would have talked it over with him first and persuaded him to do it for some loving reason. I can't imagine what that reason could be, but if he was truly asked by the Lord to do it, it would have to have made sense on some level.

There are scriptures (D&C and BoM) that imply that both Abraham and Isaac willingly went through with it, difficult as it may have seemed. Remember that Jesus Christ willingly became a sacrifice for sin, which sacrifice is symbolized by the shedding of blood of lambs each Passover, and which sacrifice was also symbolized by Isaac and Abraham. There are traditions outside the Bible that tell us they went through it. This commandment given to Abraham was a trial in relation to Abraham's desires to claim the blessings of the Fathers (Adam, Seth, etc). Because of their covenant relationship, God made Abraham in deed a father of nations. To answer your question, I don't know. But I have not attained the same stature as Abraham when he obeyed. Just as we learn line upon line, we also grow in strength and faith and power line upon line. In my current stature, I don't believe I am strong enough to do so, though I do understand the symbolism, types and shadows.

FSM wrote:You guys know the Abraham and Isaac story. Where Abraham was asked by god to sacrifice his son Isaac. Well put yourself in Abraham shoes and please answer these 2 questions. I have asked myself them for years and responded in some pretty unholy ways.
If God asked you to sacrifice your child would you do it?
If not would you feel guilt about disobeying God?

No.

No.

FWIW, I don't believe God would approve of lots of stuff in the OT. In other words, I don't believe God would command such a thing.

Most people would probably not. The real question that forces to look inside our hearts is will we feel guilt for not obaying. If I knew the one true god told me to do this I would tell him hell no. I will happily sit in outer darkness before I let him rule over me or my family again. I have learned so much from this story.
1. Don't always follow the crowd.
2. Use common sense and don't let blind faith cloud my judgment.
3. Respect my enemies and listen to their reasoning.
4. And learn when its time to walk away.

You guys are great to talk too.
Thanks

FSM, I'm pretty sure the you would not be following the crowd by sacrificing you son on an alter. I'm wondering how you got that from this story.

FSM wrote:Most people would probably not. The real question that forces to look inside our hearts is will we feel guilt for not obaying. If I knew the one true god told me to do this I would tell him hell no. I will happily sit in outer darkness before I let him rule over me or my family again. I have learned so much from this story.
1. Don't always follow the crowd.
2. Use common sense and don't let blind faith cloud my judgment.
3. Respect my enemies and listen to their reasoning.
4. And learn when its time to walk away.

You guys are great to talk too.
Thanks

Honesty, if I ever thought God was telling me to do something like that, I'd go see a doctor, ASAP.

jbalm wrote:

FSM wrote:Most people would probably not. The real question that forces to look inside our hearts is will we feel guilt for not obaying. If I knew the one true god told me to do this I would tell him hell no. I will happily sit in outer darkness before I let him rule over me or my family again. I have learned so much from this story.
1. Don't always follow the crowd.
2. Use common sense and don't let blind faith cloud my judgment.
3. Respect my enemies and listen to their reasoning.
4. And learn when its time to walk away.

You guys are great to talk too.
Thanks

Honesty, if I ever thought God was telling me to do something like that, I'd go see a doctor, ASAP.

Very good. Me too

Jezebel wrote:FSM, I'm pretty sure the you would not be following the crowd by sacrificing you son on an alter. I'm wondering how you got that from this story.

I don't know but it is a story I love and hate at the same time. I hate it because it destroys my faith. I love it because it sets me free.

FSM wrote:You guys know the Abraham and Isaac story. Where Abraham was asked by god to sacrifice his son Isaac. Well put yourself in Abraham shoes and please answer these 2 questions. I have asked myself them for years and responded in some pretty unholy ways.
If God asked you to sacrifice your child would you do it?
If not would you feel guilt about disobeying God?

I don't think it's very black and white.

#1 - I think Abraham knew God/the Lord by this time. He had seen Him, no doubt. It was an absolute knowledge that the Lord was speaking to him and not some impostor.

#2 - Isaac was probably not a little child, but a full grown man totally capable of overpowering his 100+ year old father.

#3 - It is possible that Isaac had seen the Lord by this time - or at least had angels administer to him.

#4 - I don't know if the story is true; I suppose it could be.

I don't think God would ask me to do this.

If I know God is telling me to do something, I do my best to comply. (Note the word, "know", here.)

Jezebel wrote:I think Nephi's example of killing Laban is easier to understand.

The law allowed thieves to be killed, apparently. Laban had not only stolen their wealth, he had tried to kill them (which is how he got their wealth). According to the law they were living by, Nephi had the right to kill him.

A Random Phrase wrote:

Jezebel wrote:I think Nephi's example of killing Laban is easier to understand.

The law allowed thieves to be killed, apparently. Laban had not only stolen their wealth, he had tried to kill them (which is how he got their wealth). According to the law they were living by, Nephi had the right to kill him.

Yes, true. And in that aspect it is also easier to understand. But for me, I don't think that would be enough.

Knowing that he was worthy of death was perhaps not enough for Nephi. I think he needed a positive reason--the salvation of his family. That is how it would work for me.

FSM wrote:

Jezebel wrote:FSM, I'm pretty sure the you would not be following the crowd by sacrificing you son on an alter. I'm wondering how you got that from this story.

I don't know but it is a story I love and hate at the same time. I hate it because it destroys my faith. I love it because it sets me free.

I love it because it's food for thought. It's fostered many, many deep conversations. Nothing can destroy my faith because my faith is not dependent on scripture stories.

Jezebel wrote:

A Random Phrase wrote: The law allowed thieves to be killed, apparently. Laban had not only stolen their wealth, he had tried to kill them (which is how he got their wealth). According to the law they were living by, Nephi had the right to kill him.

Yes, true. And in that aspect it is also easier to understand. But for me, I don't think that would be enough.

Knowing that he was worthy of death was perhaps not enough for Nephi. I think he needed a positive reason--the salvation of his family. That is how it would work for me.

This probably says something about Nephi's character. He was not typical for his era. He didn't want to kill his enemy just because he had been delivered into his hands. God had to give him a better reason than, "He stole your stuff and tried to kill you and your brothers." Others may have killed Laban without hesitation because Laban deserved it according to their law.

I've always thought there were many better alternatives the Lord could have come up with than the beheading and stripping naked of a defenseless drunk.

Such as?

FSM wrote:You guys know the Abraham and Isaac story. Where Abraham was asked by god to sacrifice his son Isaac. Well put yourself in Abraham shoes and please answer these 2 questions. I have asked myself them for years and responded in some pretty unholy ways.
If God asked you to sacrifice your child would you do it?
If not would you feel guilt about disobeying God?

I wouldn't and no.

Further, the true majesty of the Abrahamic test is he came to understand he was deceived and he repented. Most men who had worked themselves into believing doing something like that was right would have had too much ego invested to admit they were in error.

Some say he did it knowing God would actually stop because it was just a test but the New Testament (can't remember exactly where) said he verily believed he should do the deed and was going to do it.

Jezebel wrote:Such as?

Anything other than...

KMCopeland wrote:

FSM wrote:

FSM wrote:You guys know the Abraham and Isaac story. Where Abraham was asked by god to sacrifice his son Isaac. Well put yourself in Abraham shoes and please answer these 2 questions. I have asked myself them for years and responded in some pretty unholy ways.
If God asked you to sacrifice your child would you do it? If not would you feel guilt about disobeying God?//One of many fairly horrifying Old Testament stories. I wonder if it actually happened. It's hard for me to believe God would make such a request.//
I know that's why its hard for me to believe in that kind of God.

Hugh Nibley said that when we come across something in scripture that offends our understanding of God, we should just discard it.

Discard the scripture, or our limited understanding of God? ;)

We are asked to sacrifice often, including those we love. President Eyring gave a talk on that years ago, how he sacrificed his family time for the church, and more. Joseph Smith sacrificed his children. The pioneers sacrificed their children and their spouses. Etc.

FSM wrote:You guys know the Abraham and Isaac story. Where Abraham was asked by god to sacrifice his son Isaac. Well put yourself in Abraham shoes and please answer these 2 questions. I have asked myself them for years and responded in some pretty unholy ways.
If God asked you to sacrifice your child would you do it?
If not would you feel guilt about disobeying God?

With my understandings as it stands now, no, I would not sacrifice my child. Yes, I would probably battle guilt because of how I have been raised.

Here's an interesting thought, if we are to become as God is, why would he ever want us to just go along, what if he really wants us to dicern truth and error, even within scripture? Within the church? Our patriarchal blessings? Advice from those we trust?

I also do not buy sacrificing your family for the church. Sorry, but I do not want a husband like President Monson. I want a man who is home with our children, there for our family. I think the church fails in that respect. It takes men out of the home to care for other people's families, leaving the man's own family largely to the woman. I can't remember how many grateful priesthood leaders have said that their wives raised the children because they were out on the Lord's errand. I'm all for helping others, but what good does it do to take a father out of the lives of his kids and supplant him somewhere else? Then down the road some other worthy priesthood leader can step into that fathers shoes and help his kids. No thanks on that one.

When I was expecting my 3 child my husband was due to go to scout camp. I had some complications and was worried about him taking our only car away on a week long scout camp. He agreed and canceled at the last minute. The flack I took for that was cruel. My husband had let the scouts down, made someone else go in his place, and when I did not go into labor during scout camp, the following Sunday I was taunted with comments that you just shouldn't say to a cranky pregnant lady

So in short I believe God want us to nurture our family, not sacrifice them, and love others, and I hope no one will be sitting in hell for being too kind, loving and merciful