LDS Freedom Forum

{/quote} If God asked you to sacrifice your child would you do it? If not would you feel guilt about disobeying God?[/quote]One of many fairly horrifying Old Testament stories. I wonder if it actually happened. It's hard for me to believe God would make such a request.[/quote]
I know that's why its hard for me to believe in that kind of God.[/quote]Hugh Nibley said that when we come across something in scripture that offends our understanding of God, we should just discard it.[/quote]


I think the quote by Nibley is very interesting. I have a "feeling" that if someone were to ask him (I know he's no longer with us) he would explain it further. I have often felt when reading scriptures and scripture stories, etc., that more than likely we don't have the whole story. For us, it just takes a few seconds or minutes to "write" something via our computers. Perhaps those doing the "writing" only wrote what they had time for...or chose those things they felt were the most important...which leaves us with a lot to ponder. Sometimes when I read about various people in the OT, NT, or BoM I get to feeling a little guilty that I am not a better person. Then I have a thought that maybe everything about that person has not been written down. Just some random thoughts.

Actually Julie Rowe touches on this in her first book.
The pictures we see depicting the scene in LDS art aren't quite accurate.

Issac was actually a grown man in his late 20s to early 30s is what Julie was shown and was fully cognizant of the event willing to do his Father Abraham's will.

It makes the whole subject a little more digestible, plausible etc.

njb

Kitkat wrote:

FSM wrote:You guys know the Abraham and Isaac story. Where Abraham was asked by god to sacrifice his son Isaac. Well put yourself in Abraham shoes and please answer these 2 questions. I have asked myself them for years and responded in some pretty unholy ways.
If God asked you to sacrifice your child would you do it?
If not would you feel guilt about disobeying God?

With my understandings as it stands now, no, I would not sacrifice my child. Yes, I would probably battle guilt because of how I have been raised.

Here's an interesting thought, if we are to become as God is, why would he ever want us to just go along, what if he really wants us to dicern truth and error, even within scripture? Within the church? Our patriarchal blessings? Advice from those we trust?

I also do not buy sacrificing your family for the church. Sorry, but I do not want a husband like President Monson. I want a man who is home with our children, there for our family. I think the church fails in that respect. It takes men out of the home to care for other people's families, leaving the man's own family largely to the woman. I can't remember how many grateful priesthood leaders have said that their wives raised the children because they were out on the Lord's errand. I'm all for helping others, but what good does it do to take a father out of the lives of his kids and supplant him somewhere else? Then down the road some other worthy priesthood leader can step into that fathers shoes and help his kids. No thanks on that one.

When I was expecting my 3 child my husband was due to go to scout camp. I had some complications and was worried about him taking our only car away on a week long scout camp. He agreed and canceled at the last minute. The flack I took for that was cruel. My husband had let the scouts down, made someone else go in his place, and when I did not go into labor during scout camp, the following Sunday I was taunted with comments that you just shouldn't say to a cranky pregnant lady

So in short I believe God want us to nurture our family, not sacrifice them, and love others, and I hope no one will be sitting in hell for being too kind, loving and merciful

I also do not believe that the family should be sacrificed for the church, at least not by default. However, I believe the Lord will ask us to sacrifice our family in some manner or another, if we are seeking to become like him.

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

I do not think many, or perhaps even one other person besides Abraham, will be asked to sacrifice their child on an alter. But I think that each of us in our own way will be asked to demonstrate that we trust our family members in God's hands. I think that in each case, that will play out differently in order to accommodate each individual. But I think each true follower of Christ will eventually be asked to do something that will test their faith to the limit and determine whether or not they really trust the safety and well being of their loved ones in the hands of the Lord.

We have to come to an understanding in this world that we have no power of ourselves to keep our family members safe. We have to further come to trust the Lord that he can and that he will, according to his wisdom and order. If we cannot do this, when destruction comes upon us, we will suffer spiritual horrors beyond what we can endure.

We know that Abraham was an ardent seeker of truth. And, if there were as many cults in his day as their are today, he likely was caught up in going about and seeking for truth wherever he could find it.

And, when you are searching there seems to be no shortage of charismatic charlatan frauds out there with notable claims, etc. I think of it as the truth-seeker's gauntlet. These cult leaders frenzy up people into an ego trip where they have to do some great and notable act to show God they will really do what He commands, even if it offends your conscience. Such a person is actually deluded by the adversary to cut you off from your own good conscience in order to turn you into a heartless minion that will do whatever the adversary bids you to do.

To me, the greatness of Abraham is that he got frenzied up somehow to believe he should actually do this, but a lowly angel (think Aaronic Priesthood guy here) called him to correction and Abraham humbled himself, got off of his ego trip, regained his heart and his conscience AND PASSED THAT TEST.

jwharton wrote:We know that Abraham was an ardent seeker of truth. And, if there were as many cults in his day as their are today, he likely was caught up in going about and seeking for truth wherever he could find it.

And, when you are searching there seems to be no shortage of charismatic charlatan frauds out there with notable claims, etc. I think of it as the truth-seeker's gauntlet. These cult leaders frenzy up people into an ego trip where they have to do some great and notable act to show God they will really do what He commands, even if it offends your conscience. Such a person is actually deluded by the adversary to cut you off from your own good conscience in order to turn you into a heartless minion that will do whatever the adversary bids you to do.

To me, the greatness of Abraham is that he got frenzied up somehow to believe he should actually do this, but a lowly angel (think Aaronic Priesthood guy here) called him to correction and Abraham humbled himself, got off of his ego trip, regained his heart and his conscience AND PASSED THAT TEST.

hmm.
plausible.
dunno.

njb

Jezebel wrote: I think that each of us in our own way will be asked to demonstrate that we trust our family members in God's hands. I think that in each case, that will play out differently in order to accommodate each individual. But I think each true follower of Christ will eventually be asked to do something that will test their faith to the limit and determine whether or not they really trust the safety and well being of their loved ones in the hands of the Lord.

This is an excellent and proper perspective.

jwharton wrote:To me, the greatness of Abraham is that he got frenzied up somehow to believe he should actually do this, but a lowly angel (think Aaronic Priesthood guy here) called him to correction and Abraham humbled himself, got off of his ego trip, regained his heart and his conscience AND PASSED THAT TEST.

This is an intriguing perspective - all "perspectives" should be considered until the "TRUTH" "meshes" and not only join in "fitting" with the other pieces of the puzzle, but contribute to the whole and not "hole."

Jezebel wrote:

Kitkat wrote:

FSM wrote:You guys know the Abraham and Isaac story. Where Abraham was asked by god to sacrifice his son Isaac. Well put yourself in Abraham shoes and please answer these 2 questions. I have asked myself them for years and responded in some pretty unholy ways.
If God asked you to sacrifice your child would you do it?
If not would you feel guilt about disobeying God?

With my understandings as it stands now, no, I would not sacrifice my child. Yes, I would probably battle guilt because of how I have been raised.

Here's an interesting thought, if we are to become as God is, why would he ever want us to just go along, what if he really wants us to dicern truth and error, even within scripture? Within the church? Our patriarchal blessings? Advice from those we trust?

I also do not buy sacrificing your family for the church. Sorry, but I do not want a husband like President Monson. I want a man who is home with our children, there for our family. I think the church fails in that respect. It takes men out of the home to care for other people's families, leaving the man's own family largely to the woman. I can't remember how many grateful priesthood leaders have said that their wives raised the children because they were out on the Lord's errand. I'm all for helping others, but what good does it do to take a father out of the lives of his kids and supplant him somewhere else? Then down the road some other worthy priesthood leader can step into that fathers shoes and help his kids. No thanks on that one.

When I was expecting my 3 child my husband was due to go to scout camp. I had some complications and was worried about him taking our only car away on a week long scout camp. He agreed and canceled at the last minute. The flack I took for that was cruel. My husband had let the scouts down, made someone else go in his place, and when I did not go into labor during scout camp, the following Sunday I was taunted with comments that you just shouldn't say to a cranky pregnant lady

So in short I believe God want us to nurture our family, not sacrifice them, and love others, and I hope no one will be sitting in hell for being too kind, loving and merciful

I also do not believe that the family should be sacrificed for the church, at least not by default. However, I believe the Lord will ask us to sacrifice our family in some manner or another, if we are seeking to become like him.

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

I do not think many, or perhaps even one other person besides Abraham, will be asked to sacrifice their child on an alter. But I think that each of us in our own way will be asked to demonstrate that we trust our family members in God's hands. I think that in each case, that will play out differently in order to accommodate each individual. But I think each true follower of Christ will eventually be asked to do something that will test their faith to the limit and determine whether or not they really trust the safety and well being of their loved ones in the hands of the Lord.

We have to come to an understanding in this world that we have no power of ourselves to keep our family members safe. We have to further come to trust the Lord that he can and that he will, according to his wisdom and order. If we cannot do this, when destruction comes upon us, we will suffer spiritual horrors beyond what we can endure.

I completely agree, I love the thought of trusting my family to God's hands. That I can reconcile, but I can't believe God wants me to truly sacrifice my family, when he gave me stewardship to abandon them...

Kitkat wrote: I can't believe God wants me to truly sacrifice my family, when he gave me stewardship to abandon them...

"Whose" family are we speaking of? You decide.

Jezebel wrote:

Kitkat wrote:With my understandings as it stands now, no, I would not sacrifice my child. Yes, I would probably battle guilt because of how I have been raised.

Here's an interesting thought, if we are to become as God is, why would he ever want us to just go along, what if he really wants us to dicern truth and error, even within scripture? Within the church? Our patriarchal blessings? Advice from those we trust?

I also do not buy sacrificing your family for the church. Sorry, but I do not want a husband like President Monson. I want a man who is home with our children, there for our family. I think the church fails in that respect. It takes men out of the home to care for other people's families, leaving the man's own family largely to the woman. I can't remember how many grateful priesthood leaders have said that their wives raised the children because they were out on the Lord's errand. I'm all for helping others, but what good does it do to take a father out of the lives of his kids and supplant him somewhere else? Then down the road some other worthy priesthood leader can step into that fathers shoes and help his kids. No thanks on that one.

When I was expecting my 3 child my husband was due to go to scout camp. I had some complications and was worried about him taking our only car away on a week long scout camp. He agreed and canceled at the last minute. The flack I took for that was cruel. My husband had let the scouts down, made someone else go in his place, and when I did not go into labor during scout camp, the following Sunday I was taunted with comments that you just shouldn't say to a cranky pregnant lady

So in short I believe God want us to nurture our family, not sacrifice them, and love others, and I hope no one will be sitting in hell for being too kind, loving and merciful

I also do not believe that the family should be sacrificed for the church, at least not by default. However, I believe the Lord will ask us to sacrifice our family in some manner or another, if we are seeking to become like him.

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

I do not think many, or perhaps even one other person besides Abraham, will be asked to sacrifice their child on an alter. But I think that each of us in our own way will be asked to demonstrate that we trust our family members in God's hands. I think that in each case, that will play out differently in order to accommodate each individual. But I think each true follower of Christ will eventually be asked to do something that will test their faith to the limit and determine whether or not they really trust the safety and well being of their loved ones in the hands of the Lord.

We have to come to an understanding in this world that we have no power of ourselves to keep our family members safe. We have to further come to trust the Lord that he can and that he will, according to his wisdom and order. If we cannot do this, when destruction comes upon us, we will suffer spiritual horrors beyond what we can endure.

Let me add another quote we might have forgotten:
References to the Joseph Smith statement quoted by John Taylor about God wrenching our heart strings as a part of our proving here in mortality:

Neal A. Maxwell, Wherefore Ye Must Press Forward, p.51. Since we are here to be proved, words of soberness like these from John Taylor are not surprising: "I heard the Prophet Joseph say in speaking to the Twelve on one occasion: `You will have all kinds of trials to pass through. And it is quite as necessary for you to be tried as it was for Abraham and other men of God, and (he said) God will feel after you, and He will take hold of you and wrench your very heart strings, and if you cannot stand it you will not be fit for an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom of God.'" (Journal of Discourses, 24:197.)

Harold B. Lee, BYU Speeches, February 7, 1962, p.9. John Taylor, in connection with this, said, "I heard the Prophet Joseph Smith say to the Twelve, 'You will have all kinds of troubles and trials to pass through. And it is quite as necessary for you to be tried, even as Abraham and other men of God.' And said he, 'God will feel after you and he will take hold of you and wrench your very heart strings. And if you cannot stand it, you will not be fit for an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom of God.'" (John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 24, p. 197.)

Church News, October 7, 1972, p.14. President Taylor told the Twelve then, President [Harold B.] Lee declared: "You will have all kinds of trials to pass through, and it is quite as necessary that you be tried as was Abraham and other men of God. God will feel after you, and He will take hold of you and wrench your very heart strings, and if you cannot stand it you will not be fit for an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom of God."

John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, Vol.20, p.259 - p.260, March 2, 1879. Did you ever know it is necessary that we should be tried in all things? If you do not you will find it out before you get through, and we are not through yet quite. In this connection, I am reminded of what I heard the Prophet Joseph say, speaking more particularly with reference to the Twelve, "The Lord will feel after your heart-strings, and will wrench them and twist them around, and you will have to learn to rely upon God and upon God alone."

A Discussion of Lecture 6 [of the Lectures on Faith]: "Great Faith Obtained Only Through Personal Sacrifice," by Robert J. Matthews. "I heard Joseph Smith say and I presume Brother Snow heard him also-in preaching to the Twelve in Nauvoo, that the Lord would get hold of their heart strings and wrench them, and that they would have to be tried as Abraham was tried. And Joseph said that if God had known any other way whereby he could have touched Abraham's feelings more acutely and more keenly he would have done so. It was not only his parental feelings that were touched. There was something else besides. He had the promise that in him and in his seed all the nations of the earth should be blessed; that his seed should be multiplied as the stars of the heaven and as the sand upon the sea shore. He had looked forward through the vista of future ages and seen, by the spirit of revelation, myriads of his people rise up through whom God would convey intelligence, light and salvation to a world. But in being called upon to sacrifice his son it seemed as though all his prospects pertaining to posterity were come to naught. But he had faith in God, and he fulfilled the thing that was required of him. Yet we cannot conceive of anything that could be more trying and more perplexing than the position in which he was placed (JD 24:264)."
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brrgilbert wrote:

jwharton wrote:To me, the greatness of Abraham is that he got frenzied up somehow to believe he should actually do this, but a lowly angel (think Aaronic Priesthood guy here) called him to correction and Abraham humbled himself, got off of his ego trip, regained his heart and his conscience AND PASSED THAT TEST.

This is an intriguing perspective - all "perspectives" should be considered until the "TRUTH" "meshes" and not only join in "fitting" with the other pieces of the puzzle, but contribute to the whole and not "hole."

I agree what exactly happened with Abraham is an open field for several possibilities. I believe we reveal ourselves based upon how we fill in the blanks.

I shared what I did because for me it was a truth I needed to see in order to be fortified in standing up against a cult leader who was trying to work me up into just such a frenzy of ego and submission, at the expense of my child. [Edit: I should have said my child's well-being. Nothing life threatening.] I eventually faced an ultimatum to comply and prove myself as being "faithful" or to be cut off of any further association. I stood my ground, as I believe any true man of God should, no matter who is talking and what office they claim to hold. The JST says something along these lines: If thine eye offend thee, he who is appointed to show thee light, pluck him out. For it is better to go into heaven with one eye than to be cast into hell with two eyes.

There are those who use the Abrahamic Test dynamic as a tool to shove down the goodness of their heart and their conscience (or that of the person they are attempting to manipulate) and glorify themselves in doing something heinous and hypocritical. What a hypocrite Abraham would have been to sacrifice his own son when his wicked and wayward father Tereh was going to do the same to him.

This is an all too famous tactic of cultists to get people under their control. From my point of view this is the path to becoming a sociopathic narcissist. I was offered a place to step down that path and I reject it, whole-heartedly. Whatever deity I may have offended by so choosing, they can have the same fit the adversary did before Moses because if they ever were a "son of God" they would be a fallen one with no glory in my eyes.

You have posted many interesting, thought-provoking, and intelligent replies on this forum, jwharton. I enjoy reading your take on things... Thanks

Muerte Rosa wrote:

FSM wrote: I know that's why its hard for me to believe in that kind of God.

There is only one God, therefore there is only one kind of God. The bible doesn't explain context and reasoning or all sides of all stories. God is good and He's real. I have ZERO doubts about that. I see His hand in my life nearly every day. Whether you believe in Him or not. People can say what they want about the church but i think with the subject of God....I'd say it's better to err on the side of caution....and live in such a way that one would if there was a God.

I think this is the first bit of solemnity I have read from you, MR. Well said.

FSM, It is that kind of God that sent His own only begotten Son to the altar of sacrifice so that you and I can learn line upon line to become like God. Abraham was much further along on his journey than you and I are now. Had Abraham chosen not to go through with it, I don't believe that God would have faulted him, because Abraham was still a covenant/law abiding man. He just wouldn't have, shall we say, climbed the next rung on Jacob's ladder. There are blessings, which he sought, which are predicated upon different/higher laws that simply are not applicable to you and me.

You and I see killing/death in a certain context and under certain laws and therefore is wrong. Yet God sent Christ into this world to die a very specific death. Christ fulfilled a much higher law. He descended below us all so that He could then lift us all. Noah was the last Father/Patriarch before the world was flooded. Shem lived long enough to know Abraham and I believe that it was through Shem that Abraham learned about and was able to lay claim to the same blessings of the fathers, but with a trial tailored to Abraham. Sacrifices were abominable to Abraham, who himself was once laid on an alter to be sacrificed to false gods. The Lord knows where our fears and unbeliefs are and He exposed Abraham's through his beloved son, Isaac. The rest is history.

We Americans send our children off to be sacrificed on the Altar of War to worship the god of money every day. @-)

ajax wrote:I've always thought there were many better alternatives the Lord could have come up with than the beheading and stripping naked of a defenseless drunk.

Well, if it was true that he could slay 50 all by himself, perhaps that was the only thing the Lord could do to even the odds - especially if Laban was prone to getting soused on a regular basis.

KMCopeland wrote:Hugh Nibley said that when we come across something in scripture that offends our understanding of God, we should just discard it.

Laman and Lemuel did that. Quite often, in fact. The Pharisees and Sadducees did that when Christ presented something (himself) to them that offended their understanding of God.

Great advice ... if you want to keep your understanding of God limited and shoot yourself in the foot when it comes to salvation. I think a better approach would be to take it to the Lord. Take it to God and ask, beg, plead, for the truth of the matter.

JohnnyL wrote: He had the promise that in him and in his seed all the nations of the earth should be blessed; that his seed should be multiplied as the stars of the heaven and as the sand upon the sea shore. He had looked forward through the vista of future ages and seen, by the spirit of revelation, myriads of his people rise up through whom God would convey intelligence, light and salvation to a world. But in being called upon to sacrifice his son it seemed as though all his prospects pertaining to posterity were come to naught. But he had faith in God, and he fulfilled the thing that was required of him. Yet we cannot conceive of anything that could be more trying and more perplexing than the position in which he was placed (JD 24:264)."
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That is the answer Johnny, Abraham had had promises made to him, he and Sariah were old. Abraham had faith in God and knew that the promises had to be fulfilled. How could they be fulfilled if Isaac was dead at that time? The commandment conflicted with the promises. I think it took a hell of a lot of faith for Abraham but I think he had faith the Lord would have a solution, and He did. Cleon Skousen mentioned that in the scriptures somewhere (I haven't looked it up) that the Lord said it was so that one man would know what it was like to sacrifice your own son, just as the Father had done. You and I would have huge problems with that commandment if given to us but it is what the Father did in sacrificing Jesus, for us. Abraham learned how that felt and I don't know in the eternities if we will go through that experience as our Father has but it made Abraham more Godlike, even if it is something we find abhorrent.

A Random Phrase wrote:

ajax wrote:I've always thought there were many better alternatives the Lord could have come up with than the beheading and stripping naked of a defenseless drunk.

Well, if it was true that he could slay 50 all by himself, perhaps that was the only thing the Lord could do to even the odds - especially if Laban was prone to getting soused on a regular basis.

The Law of Moses aside, I have pondered this for some time. It is obvious that Laban, a prominent figure in the house of Joseph, being the rightful caretaker of the record of Joseph, forfeited his stewardship and the tokens of his rulership. Part of the Law of Moses is for a king/ruler/priest to possess the law so that he could properly administer it to his people. Laban had instead, it seems, given in to the idolatry and sins of Jerusalem at the time. Thus the Lord's judgment was pronounced and the tokens of rulership were given to Nephi (the law/brass plates, the sword and Laban's armor/clothes). It is so symbolic to me that the mantle was literally passed to Nephi, who realized that his seed could not have the law except he take the plates. This is why the Spirit constrained Nephi to proceed with judgment.

SmallFarm wrote:We Americans send our children off to be sacrificed on the Altar of War to worship the god of money every day. @-)

and the god of oil, power...

jwharton wrote:I shared what I did because for me it was a truth I needed to see in order to be fortified in standing up against a cult leader who was trying to work me up into just such a frenzy of ego and submission, at the expense of my child. ...

There are those who use the Abrahamic Test dynamic as a tool to shove down the goodness of their heart and their conscience (or that of the person they are attempting to manipulate) and glorify themselves in doing something heinous and hypocritical.

The difference I see is that God spoke directly to Abraham (if the story is true), and Abraham knew without doubt that it was God speaking to him. If any other human asked any such sacrifice of family, time, etc. I think it would be highly appropriate to run the other direction as fast as one can - especially, if they were telling you that you had to kill someone.

A Random Phrase wrote:

KMCopeland wrote:Hugh Nibley said that when we come across something in scripture that offends our understanding of God, we should just discard it.

Laman and Lemuel did that. Quite often, in fact. The Pharisees and Sadducees did that when Christ presented something (himself) to them that offended their understanding of God.

Not prayerfully they didn't.

A Random Phrase wrote:Great advice ... if you want to keep your understanding of God limited and shoot yourself in the foot when it comes to salvation. I think a better approach would be to take it to the Lord. Take it to God and ask, beg, plead, for the truth of the matter.

Sometimes the answer is "you should discard that."

A Random Phrase wrote:

jwharton wrote:I shared what I did because for me it was a truth I needed to see in order to be fortified in standing up against a cult leader who was trying to work me up into just such a frenzy of ego and submission, at the expense of my child. ...

There are those who use the Abrahamic Test dynamic as a tool to shove down the goodness of their heart and their conscience (or that of the person they are attempting to manipulate) and glorify themselves in doing something heinous and hypocritical.

The difference I see is that God spoke directly to Abraham (if the story is true), and Abraham knew without doubt that it was God speaking to him. If any other human asked any such sacrifice of family, time, etc. I think it would be highly appropriate to run the other direction as fast as one can - especially, if they were telling you that you had to kill someone.

Fortunately it wasn't anything that serious, but serious enough none-the-less.
Also, I want to add to the point made about God being who answered Abraham.

God does indeed answer egotistical and foolish requests when we ask amiss to our own potential condemnation. There seems to be this assumption that God won't ever actively participate in someone reaping condemnation to themselves. My experience has shown me that God takes just as much interest and activity in bringing condemnation to those who deserve it as He does exaltation to those who deserve it. For example, just because God told Joseph to go ahead and turn over the manuscript to Martin Harris didn't mean it all of a sudden meant it would be for his blessing. It was a very painful and humiliating experience for him, as it would have been if Abraham didn't come to his senses too.

Edit note:
This was also an important learning experience where I came to realize this principle during my tussle with that situation. I could see how the spirit and attitude they were functioning by caused them to receive false revelation, revelation that yet came from the Lord. The reason I came to see it that way was because of how it was worded when I read it I could see a totally unique message embedded in it that revealed to me what was really going on. It was perhaps one of the most bizarre experiences in seeing yet another way in which the Lord has given me revelation. He gave me true revelation by way of giving someone else false revelation. The only way those people are going to get their wits about them again is if they hear the beckoning of a lowly angel and recognize their error and repent, just as Abraham did. Sadly, I'm not going to hold my breath as this was several years ago. Having had several brushes with self-important group leaders, Abrahamic humility is indeed a rarity and surely would be highly prized by the Lord.

WhereCanITurn4Peace wrote:You have posted many interesting, thought-provoking, and intelligent replies on this forum, jwharton. I enjoy reading your take on things... Thanks

What I find as thought provoking is some of the answers I get.

SmallFarm wrote:We Americans send our children off to be sacrificed on the Altar of War to worship the god of money every day. @-)

And with out this money we will surly die. Money is another false god that has true meaning to us. Great post.