STAKE CONFERENCE--Tithing

[shadow]

I have it on even better Authority that the Mall will be a pile of rubble long before it is ever used for Millennial purposes.

IMHO, the Salt Lake tornado in 1999 was a warning by the Lord and so what did we do... finished a $500 million conference center (fine sanctuaries that rob the poor) and then raised the Lord a $5 billion Babylonian development project. :-s

President Hinckley said-
"The building of this structure has been a bold undertaking. We worried about it. We prayed about it. We listened for the whisperings of the Spirit concerning it. And only when we felt the confirming voice of the Lord did we determine to go forward."
Your warning shot interpretation is misplaced.

Interestingly, a prophecy from James Talmage-
In 1924 Elder James E. Talmage of the Council of the Twelve wrote, “I have long seen the possible erection of a great pavilion on the north side of the Tabernacle, seating perhaps twenty thousand people or even double that number, with amplifiers capable of making all hear the addresses given from the Tabernacle stands, and in addition to this a connection with the broadcasting system, with receivers in the several chapels or other meeting houses throughout the intermountain region”

Also, Pres. Hinckley said-
In 1940 the First Presidency and the Twelve had their architect draw up a plan of a building that would seat 19,000 and would stand where this building stands. That was 60 years ago. They thought about it, they talked about it, but finally they dropped the idea entirely.

The time wasn't right then, but the time did come to pass.

[Obrien]

Ok, I'm going to expose my thoughts to ridicule....but.....why are we so worried about the poor? Instead of always giving them something, how about we teach them and then help them to provide for themselves. Our ancestors, when they came to this country didn't get handouts. There are so many "poor" that really aren't poor. They can still afford cigarettes, liquor, cell phones, and etc. I have a problem just giving them stuff, money, whatever, over and over again without any effort to break the cycle. I know this isn't a popular stance, but if we are so worried about the poor, why does the Church have to go outside its membership (which it does through humanitarian efforts, as well as the myriads of programs for anyone to use)? How many food stamp recipients play the system and really don't want to work. How many 2nd and 3rd generation government welfare recipients really want to work. I think most would rather receive from the government or Church rather than putting up an effort to support themselves.

There are always those that are deserving, and I am not talking about those with mental or physical handicaps, abused and battered women and children (or men for that matter), wounded veterans, or any others that have completely exhausted all other venues. Should we really support the guy on the corner begging for money, only to see him/her 15 minutes later with a 5th of vodka to his lips? Or the beggars at the freeway exits and are actually dressed better than you are, should we give of our substance there, too?

Sorry, too many bleeding hearts and not enough effort to helping them learn how to fish... So, go ahead and shoot the arrows, but if in the long run a multi-billion dollar investment brings in 10+ times the original amount that can then be diversified...isn't that reasonable and prudent? (Thinking of the Parable of the talents where those that multiplied their original talent were praised, while he that buried it in ground with no increase was cast out.)

I only have 3 comments Z, and no ridicule...
that's a big if

What would King Benjamin do with the poor?

I know there are lots of people needing things among the North American saints, but I am usually thinking about kids in South America or Asia or Africa that are being served by Liahona. That's the poor I'm usually thinking about - the destitute. Not the flat screen, smart phone, fast food poor in America.

[Robert Sinclair]

And for consideration, I would that you would understand, that it takes about a year to become a Jew. This that you may receive proper instructions on what will be expected and required of you.

And if one dilligently looks into the Book of Commandments or Doctrine and Covenants section 20, instructions for becoming a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is given.

That they might manifest before the Church that they truly have repented of all their sins, and manifest by their works, that they have been instructed properly and have received of the Spirit of Christ, these shall be received by baptism.

And then even more after they are received by baptism, that the elders or priests are to have sufficient time to expound "all things" concerning the Church of Jesus Christ previous to their partaking of the sacrament and being confirmed, so that all things may be done in order, by seeing that they manifest by a godly walk and conversation, that they are worthy to partake of the sacrament and be confirmed.

Possibly we should take a good look as to why it requires about a year of teaching to become a jewish member of a synagogue. ♡ ♡

Then how and why would one ever doubt that imparting to these wonderful Saints, covenants and deeds that cannot be broken, sufficient for the support of their families, into their hands as God has commanded, should be done.

All temple recommend worthy holders should definitely be ready for such.

Or else, close all the temple doors until every one is equal in their temporal things, and this not grudgingly.

See how quickly the work can be hastened to redeem Zion even now then. ♡ ♡

[jbalm]

I think you should dream that.

That's good. Maybe I will dream it. I gotta call in Coast to Coast just to make sure I have another witness to back this up.

I'm thinking Bigfoot, once he loses his hair, looks like Officer Frank Poncherello.

th (4).jpg

Sheri Dew will be pleased.

Bigfoot will take her last name, and they will name their first kid Scooby.

[Obrien]

I have it on even better Authority that the Mall will be a pile of rubble long before it is ever used for Millennial purposes.

IMHO, the Salt Lake tornado in 1999 was a warning by the Lord and so what did we do... finished a $500 million conference center (fine sanctuaries that rob the poor) and then raised the Lord a $5 billion Babylonian development project. :-s

President Hinckley said-
"The building of this structure has been a bold undertaking. We worried about it. We prayed about it. We listened for the whisperings of the Spirit concerning it. And only when we felt the confirming voice of the Lord did we determine to go forward."
Your warning shot interpretation is misplaced.
I wonder if they asked for a bad feeling if they SHOULDN"T build it? Kinda like the Priesthood Revelation in 1978. Sorry Shadow, no matter how avuncular a man may be, I don't believe every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of the COB.

Interestingly, a prophecy from James Talmage-
In 1924 Elder James E. Talmage of the Council of the Twelve wrote, “I have long seen the possible erection of a great pavilion on the north side of the Tabernacle, seating perhaps twenty thousand people or even double that number, with amplifiers capable of making all hear the addresses given from the Tabernacle stands, and in addition to this a connection with the broadcasting system, with receivers in the several chapels or other meeting houses throughout the intermountain region”

Also, Pres. Hinckley said-
In 1940 the First Presidency and the Twelve had their architect draw up a plan of a building that would seat 19,000 and would stand where this building stands. That was 60 years ago. They thought about it, they talked about it, but finally they dropped the idea entirely.

The time wasn't right then, but the time did come to pass. So this goes to show that no bad idea really ever dies in a large enough institution?

[Robert Sinclair]

The building of buildings for the public benefit is fine, just make sure that before you spend one more penny, becoming equal in your temporal things and this not grudgingly, should be your first and foremost priority, as God has commanded. ♡ ♡

There will be more than ample funds to do such things then, but done in righteousness and justice and goodness of goodwill one towards another and of peace and love. ♡ ♡

[Zowieink]

Obrien: I understand. Much more reasonable. But, again, do we have to take on the entire world. Do not the other nations have a responsibility to take care of the indigent, sick and infirm, etc. etc. etc? We are too small to do everything, and many countries won't let our humanitarian aid in. I'm sure that during the millennium, there will be no poor, nor destitute, sick/infirm. Its only a few more years till the millennium and 2nd coming occur. And, by the way, if the predicted tribulations come about as the prophets of the Church have prophesied, we will be hard pressed even to take care of ourselves and those around us...we will be imparting of our substance all the time in that scenario.

[Robert Sinclair]

Start with the Church members. Then as God has commanded go then to the rest of the world as a light unto the nation's of the earth as a city on a hill, and an ensign for all, of how to be confounded no more on how to treat the poor. ♡ ♡

[shadow]

I think you should dream that.

That's good. Maybe I will dream it. I gotta call in Coast to Coast just to make sure I have another witness to back this up.

I'm thinking Bigfoot, once he loses his hair, looks like Officer Frank Poncherello.

th (4).jpg

Sheri Dew will be pleased.

Bigfoot will take her last name, and they will name their first kid Scooby.

:)) I like it. I was thinking they would name their first kid 'Mountain', after Bigfoot's home for these last few thousand years.

[Robert Sinclair]

And remember always that Jesus Christ does not lie, and he has said there is more than enough and to spare, to redeem Zion even now. ♡ ♡

Anyone telling you something different than what Jesus Christ has said, is not telling you the truth. ♡ ♡

[ajax]

I have it on even better Authority that the Mall will be a pile of rubble long before it is ever used for Millennial purposes.

IMHO, the Salt Lake tornado in 1999 was a warning by the Lord and so what did we do... finished a $500 million conference center (fine sanctuaries that rob the poor) and then raised the Lord a $5 billion Babylonian development project. :-s

President Hinckley said-
"The building of this structure has been a bold undertaking. We worried about it. We prayed about it. We listened for the whisperings of the Spirit concerning it. And only when we felt the confirming voice of the Lord did we determine to go forward."
Your warning shot interpretation is misplaced.

Interestingly, a prophecy from James Talmage-
In 1924 Elder James E. Talmage of the Council of the Twelve wrote, “I have long seen the possible erection of a great pavilion on the north side of the Tabernacle, seating perhaps twenty thousand people or even double that number, with amplifiers capable of making all hear the addresses given from the Tabernacle stands, and in addition to this a connection with the broadcasting system, with receivers in the several chapels or other meeting houses throughout the intermountain region”

Also, Pres. Hinckley said-
In 1940 the First Presidency and the Twelve had their architect draw up a plan of a building that would seat 19,000 and would stand where this building stands. That was 60 years ago. They thought about it, they talked about it, but finally they dropped the idea entirely.

The time wasn't right then, but the time did come to pass.

This is akin to medieval popes prophesying about all the bigger and better stuff they would be doing in and around their neighborhood, then alas, it happens.

[Robert Sinclair]

These things all had to happen in order for the words of Hosea to be fullfilled perfectly. ♡ ♡

[shadow]

So this goes to show that no bad idea really ever dies in a large enough institution?

Things change. When I first married my wife we didn't have any kids. We lived in a small 1 bedroom apartment, just a few hundred square feet. Now with 4 kids we live in a 5 bedroom 3100 square foot house. 15 years ago the big house would've been a bad idea. Today the small apartment would be a bad idea.

[Robert Sinclair]

All Ephraim need do is finally say, "What have I to do anymore with idols?"

This would prove to be the turning point.♡ ♡

[Col. Flagg]

I have it on even better Authority that the Mall will be a pile of rubble long before it is ever used for Millennial purposes.

IMHO, the Salt Lake tornado in 1999 was a warning by the Lord and so what did we do... finished a $500 million conference center (fine sanctuaries that rob the poor) and then raised the Lord a $5 billion Babylonian development project. :-s

President Hinckley said-
"The building of this structure has been a bold undertaking. We worried about it. We prayed about it. We listened for the whisperings of the Spirit concerning it. And only when we felt the confirming voice of the Lord did we determine to go forward."
Your warning shot interpretation is misplaced.

Interestingly, a prophecy from James Talmage-
In 1924 Elder James E. Talmage of the Council of the Twelve wrote, “I have long seen the possible erection of a great pavilion on the north side of the Tabernacle, seating perhaps twenty thousand people or even double that number, with amplifiers capable of making all hear the addresses given from the Tabernacle stands, and in addition to this a connection with the broadcasting system, with receivers in the several chapels or other meeting houses throughout the intermountain region”

Also, Pres. Hinckley said-
In 1940 the First Presidency and the Twelve had their architect draw up a plan of a building that would seat 19,000 and would stand where this building stands. That was 60 years ago. They thought about it, they talked about it, but finally they dropped the idea entirely.

The time wasn't right then, but the time did come to pass.

Shadow, are you aware of how many scriptures there are that condemn what the church did? It’s not just one or two, there are dozens! I won’t go over or list them again since we’ve already gone over this before, but let me remind you… Ezra Taft Benson said in 1986 that the church was under condemnation by the Lord because it was not abiding by the teachings and doctrines contained in the scriptures. President Hinckley also said in 1998 to Larry King that he condemns polygamy because he does not think it is doctrinal… that is a pretty bold statement to make in lieu of the fact that you and many others, including some church Historians and such all agree that Joseph Smith introduced polygamy, practiced it and taught it. So how do you reconcile those two? President Hinckley’s statement directly challenges the actions and behaviors of early church leaders. See the conundrum? And again, I ask you… is it the responsibility of a church to provide jobs and/or revitalize the downtown area of a city with billions of dollars/sacred funds?

[shadow]

Since we don't practice polygamy, its not our doctrine and it should be condemned. I condemn it too. If it's practiced again, it will be our doctrine and not condemned.

The very scriptures you use to condemn the conference center also condemn the New Jerusalem and the Celestial Kingdom. True story.

[shadow]

And again, I ask you… is it the responsibility of a church to provide jobs and/or revitalize the downtown area of a city with billions of dollars/sacred funds?

Once can get a job and provide for himself, or talk to a bishop and collect a check. Helping provide work falls under the welfare section #-o

It's not sacred funds either.

[Obrien]

So this goes to show that no bad idea really ever dies in a large enough institution?

Things change. When I first married my wife we didn't have any kids. We lived in a small 1 bedroom apartment, just a few hundred square feet. Now with 4 kids we live in a 5 bedroom 3100 square foot house. 15 years ago the big house would've been a bad idea. Today the small apartment would be a bad idea.

The church has built lots of buildings. I don't see that there's a big crunch for more space to meet. Besides, I told you yesterday, I like the neighborhood church idea. They just wanted a great and spacious building to sit in and speak to the unwashed masses from. Satellite from the old Tabernacle worked fine for that. Hell, now we have apostles "presiding" over stake conferences from the COB in a cubicle made to look like a Relief Society room.

[Robert Sinclair]

Do as Peter and his fellow apostles did first and foremost, and keep the commandment of God given to distribute unto all first and foremost, and become equal in your temporal things and this not grudgingly.

Get this baptism of cloven tongues of fire, as Peter and his fellow apostles did, then you will know what you should do next. ♡ ♡

[shadow]

They just wanted a great and spacious building to sit in and speak to the unwashed masses from.

That's not what Pres. Hinckley said.

I think you should share your ideas with God etc. They're planning some big meeting out in Missouri at a place called Adam-ondi-Ahman. They could just satellite the whole thing into peoples houses.
You're so smart Obrien :-B

[Robert Sinclair]

I went to Adam-ondi-Ahman years and years ago. There was a restroom and a trash can and a monument.

Has it changed much lately? ♡ ♡

[marktheshark]

I went to Adam-ondi-Ahman years and years ago. There was a restroom and a trash can and a monument.

Has it changed much lately? ♡ ♡

No, because we aren't equal in our temporal things?

[shadow]

I went to Adam-ondi-Ahman years and years ago. There was a restroom and a trash can and a monument.

Has it changed much lately? ♡ ♡

The commuting cost to get all those priesthood holders out there, and the time. Blah!
Then they're going to need to be fed and housed somewhere. I don't know, that whole satellite thing Obrien suggested might be good. I'm surprised nobody else thought of it. Kudos to Obrien.

[Robert Sinclair]

Brother Jones has planted an example out near that area placing soon a second house into the hands of a poor and needy family.

I hope The Council of the Disposition of Tithes take a look at what he is doing and discussion takes place of how they can start to help with these things. ♡ ♡

[lemuel]

So here is my question... are we paying too much tithing right now (as Rock Waterman contends in his blog) since the true law of tithing supposedly only requires one tenth of our 'surplus' (interest annually) as opposed to one tenth of our total income? If we were paying tithing based on 'surplus', we'd be paying about $200 less per month (if we were allowed to deduct our household expenses first). Is this how the Lord meant for it to be or should we be paying 1/10 of every paycheck? Inquiring minds need to know.

One potential example to illustrate why paying on gross income may not be what the Lord requires:

Suppose you are William Randolph Hearst in the 1930s. FDR raises the top marginal tax rate to 94%. How much should the good brother Hearst pay in tithing?