STAKE CONFERENCE--Tithing

[caddis]

Col. Flagg

Where do you think everyone is going to be buying all their fancy duds when the Lord returns? Duh!! You don't think the hosts of heaven are going to be wearing robes and sandals do you? They will need a super nice place to shop for the latest clothes before the Millennium begins.

[Robert Sinclair]

In order to build up the kingdom you must first lay a foundation. See section 70 of the D&C known as "the foundation of the Church in these last days".

No one is exempt from this law who belong to the church of the living God, in your temporal things you shall be equal and this not grudgingly; for food and for raiment, for houses and for lands, in whatsoever circumstances the Lord places you.

Then look back to section 42 of the D&C to read carefully what is known as "embracing the law of the church"

Wherein first and foremost before even one penny of residue is used to purchase lands or to build buildings for worshipping God or the public benefit thereof, the poor and needy Saints among us, were to be given into their hands covenants and deeds that cannot be broken as inheritances of stewardships sufficient for the support of their families from the consecrated Tithes and Offerings without any grudgingly behavior. ♡ ♡

[shadow]

Let's just say H. David Burton was a little less than honest when he said that. Also Shadowman, regardless of where the funds came from (tithing, donations, gifts, etc.), they are still sacred funds which are to be used to 'build up the kingdom', but I'm not quite so sure the Lord had a $3.5-$4 billion mega mall in mind when he said that? Are we supposed to build up Babylon... or Zion?

I don't think he was dishonest, Col. You're more of an accountant than I am, or would ever want to be, but I did take some accounting in college. I don't think the IRS is good with taking money from the not for profit side of the church, and investing it in the for profit side. I think that's frowned upon.
And I'm not so sure the 3-4 billion number is correct, I think it's closer to 1.5 billion, at least as far as the church's investment in the downtown revitalization is concerned.

This is an interesting article from the New York times-
“The center has added 2,000 jobs and brought more than 16 million visitors into downtown,” according to the Economic Benchmark Report of 2013, paid for by the real estate firm CBRE. Taking into account the improving economy, the report credits the mall, at 50 South Main Street, with helping downtown retail sales increase by 36 percent, or $209 million, in 2012.
The “mall is the single most important thing to happen to Salt Lake City in 50 years, maybe more,” said Bruce Bingham, a partner with Hamilton Partners, a Chicago-based real estate developer. “It revitalized downtown.”

People complain that the money should've been used to feed the poor. But isn't providing jobs and boosting the economy also feeding the poor? Yes, it is. And it's far more effective and long lasting.

And plus as a bonus, it's laying the foundation for millennial uses. Babylon tenants will go, but the structure will remain. What, do people think there won't be any need for buildings during the millennium?

[durangout]

So 10% of gross is okay. Or 10% of net is okay. However 10% after basic needs are met... you are an apostate and you aren't worthy to call yourself a Mormon. Thanks for the clarification TBM's. Much appreciated!!! :-BD

Not apostate, just a commandment breaker. That's much easier to repent of.

[durangout]

[quote="Col. Flagg"[/quote]
Let's just say H. David Burton was a little less than honest when he said that. Also Shadowman, regardless of where the funds came from (tithing, donations, gifts, etc.), they are still sacred funds which are to be used to 'build up the kingdom', but I'm not quite so sure the Lord had a $3.5-$4 billion mega mall in mind when he said that? Are we supposed to build up Babylon... or Zion?[/quote]


You used to call it a $2B mall (which was not correct). Now you call it a $3.5 - 4B mall. You always had trouble with the facts didn't you ? ;)

[Robert Sinclair]

If it's returning a high enough net cash flow it could be valued at that.

I have a jewish friend that if you can prove an 8% net return on their investment will pay "all cash" from his company.

And there are other major REIT's out there that might do the same. ♡ ♡

Then they can take some of that cash and help Brother Steven Jones with getting covenants and deeds into the hands of poor and needy Saints at terrific values.

It cost almost $20,000.00 in my area just to pull the building permits needed to build a home from what is called system development charges.

He has been able to get complete homes for less than the price of our permits, that is awesome. ♡ ♡

That could assist with the beginning of the redemption of Zion, with assistance like that in all the wards and branches. ♡ ♡

[Obrien]

Let's just say H. David Burton was a little less than honest when he said that. Also Shadowman, regardless of where the funds came from (tithing, donations, gifts, etc.), they are still sacred funds which are to be used to 'build up the kingdom', but I'm not quite so sure the Lord had a $3.5-$4 billion mega mall in mind when he said that? Are we supposed to build up Babylon... or Zion?

I don't think he was dishonest, Col. You're more of an accountant than I am, or would ever want to be, but I did take some accounting in college. I don't think the IRS is good with taking money from the not for profit side of the church, and investing it in the for profit side. I think that's frowned upon. The biggest problem is that almost none of the people who made the initial investment or supply the continuing stream of revenue to finance such ventures has the slightest clue how much was spent BECAUSE THE CHURCH HIDES ITS FINANCES FROM ITS MEMEBERS. Working in the dark is a bad, bad no-no, according to the scriptures.
And I'm not so sure the 3-4 billion number is correct, I think it's closer to 1.5 billion, at least as far as the church's investment in the downtown revitalization is concerned. Again, no one that knows is saying. For less than $1M per year, the Church could fully fund the Liahona Foundation's ambitions to serve the needs of starving and malnourished LDS kids in 85 +/- additional stakes around the world...

This is an interesting article from the New York times-
“The center has added 2,000 jobs and brought more than 16 million visitors into downtown,” according to the Economic Benchmark Report of 2013, paid for by the real estate firm CBRE. Taking into account the improving economy, the report credits the mall, at 50 South Main Street, with helping downtown retail sales increase by 36 percent, or $209 million, in 2012.
The “mall is the single most important thing to happen to Salt Lake City in 50 years, maybe more,” said Bruce Bingham, a partner with Hamilton Partners, a Chicago-based real estate developer. “It revitalized downtown.” I missed the scriptural injunction to revitalize downtowns. People's souls, yes...shopping districts...?.

People complain that the money should've been used to feed the poor. But isn't providing jobs and boosting the economy also feeding the poor? Yes, it is. And it's far more effective and long lasting. $1.5 billion would fund the LCH at it's current service level for a couple millennia. THAT'S long lasting.

And plus as a bonus, it's laying the foundation for millennial uses. Babylon tenants will go, but the structure will remain. What, do people think there won't be any need for buildings during the millennium?

Well, I have it on good authority (Julie Rowe AND "Spencer") that a massive earthquake will likely do significant damage to the mall. So there.

[jbalm]

And plus as a bonus, it's laying the foundation for millennial uses. Babylon tenants will go, but the structure will remain. What, do people think there won't be any need for buildings during the millennium?

=))

[Lizzy60]

I have it on even better Authority that the Mall will be a pile of rubble long before it is ever used for Millennial purposes.

[shadow]

I dreamed that the mother ship will return and destroy all of us so none of this matters. The aliens didn't appreciate us humans getting ET sick. Apparently his flu-like symptoms were contagious and he killed a whole world of ET's. I bet he got the flu at a Snuffer convention. I heard that's common.

[Robert Sinclair]

You have a written guarantee from God on high that if you see to your investment into his poor and needy Saints among you, your return on investment is guaranteed to give you the greatest return possible.

God doesn't lie.

See to it that you give to the poor and needy among you as God has commanded, covenants and deeds that cannot be broken, sufficient for their wants and needs, and the windows of heaven would then open up and pour out such great blessings, that there will not even be room enough to receive it all.

The Lord God Jesus Christ has said there is more than enough and to spare. ♡ ♡

[durangout]

[quote="Obrien"l

Well, I have it on good authority (Julie Rowe AND "Spencer") that a massive earthquake will likely do significant damage to the mall. So there.[/quote]
Now, THAT is funny. For a sec I thought you were serious.

[Obrien]

Wow - hands across the water...Durangout and Obrien sharing a laugh

[Obrien]

I dreamed that the mother ship will return and destroy all of us so none of this matters. The aliens didn't appreciate us humans getting ET sick. Apparently his flu-like symptoms were contagious and he killed a whole world of ET's. I bet he got the flu at a Snuffer convention. I heard that's common.

Write a book, go on tour, call Mills and roll with it. No TV interviews, however, a Shadow wouldn't show up on the screen very well.

[jbalm]

"A Humiliating Tomorrow: My Probing By ET's Homies"

by Shadow

[shadow]

I gotta figure out, I mean dream about how Bigfoot plays into all of this.

[jbalm]

Bigfoot, I mean Cain, walks up to the North Pole, finds the entrance to the hollow part of the earth, and rallies the lost tribes, who just happen to speak fluent Wookie. He then escorts them (with all their treasure, of course) back to a more temperate region. Unfortunately, that region is the Price/Helper area. Yet the tribes, ever undaunted, make the hell hole blossom like a rose.

Then the tribes use their treasure to get NASA up and running again right there in Price/Helper (now known as Paradise/Happy). Newly revamped NASA develops a particle accelerator that is able to wipe out all the probe wielding, butt perv aliens.

For all his efforts, Bigfoot/Cain gets pardoned for the whole Abel thing by the new, young prophet, Dallin Bednar McConkie (affectionately known as "Dally Mac"). Immediately, Bigfoot/Cain's superfluous hair falls out, his feet get normal sized, and he becomes all-around delightsome. He marries Sheri Dew (cuz they're about the same age by this time) and they go on a speaking tour all along the I-15 corridor. Good times are had by all.

I think you should dream that.

[shadow]

I think you should dream that.

That's good. Maybe I will dream it. I gotta call in Coast to Coast just to make sure I have another witness to back this up.

I'm thinking Bigfoot, once he loses his hair, looks like Officer Frank Poncherello.

Bigfoot redeemed

th (4).jpg (7.66 KiB) Viewed 943 times

[Obrien]

Bigfoot, I mean Cain, walks up to the North Pole, finds the entrance to the hollow part of the earth, and rallies the lost tribes, who just happen to speak fluent Wookie. He then escorts them (with all their treasure, of course) back to a more temperate region. Unfortunately, that region is the Price/Helper area. Yet the tribes, ever undaunted, make the hell hole blossom like a rose.

Then the tribes use their treasure to get NASA up and running again right there in Price/Helper (now known as Paradise/Happy). Newly revamped NASA develops a particle accelerator that is able to wipe out all the probe wielding, butt perv aliens.

For all his efforts, Bigfoot/Cain gets pardoned for the whole Abel thing by the new, young prophet, Dallin Bednar McConkie (affectionately known as "Dally Mac"). Immediately, Bigfoot/Cain's superfluous hair falls out, his feet get normal sized, and he becomes all-around delightsome. He marries Sheri Dew (cuz they're about the same age by this time) and they go on a speaking tour all along the I-15 corridor. Good times are had by all.

I think you should dream that.

Slow down, man, it's barely after noon.

[Col. Flagg]

Let's just say H. David Burton was a little less than honest when he said that. Also Shadowman, regardless of where the funds came from (tithing, donations, gifts, etc.), they are still sacred funds which are to be used to 'build up the kingdom', but I'm not quite so sure the Lord had a $3.5-$4 billion mega mall in mind when he said that? Are we supposed to build up Babylon... or Zion?

I don't think he was dishonest, Col.

Sadly, he was.

You're more of an accountant than I am, or would ever want to be, but I did take some accounting in college. I don't think the IRS is good with taking money from the not for profit side of the church, and investing it in the for profit side. I think that's frowned upon.
And I'm not so sure the 3-4 billion number is correct, I think it's closer to 1.5 billion, at least as far as the church's investment in the downtown revitalization is concerned.

You're right, I was wrong... it was $5 billion (that was the entire cost of the whole project which includes the high-priced condos)...

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1942818 ... featured-1

This is an interesting article from the New York times-
“The center has added 2,000 jobs and brought more than 16 million visitors into downtown,” according to the Economic Benchmark Report of 2013, paid for by the real estate firm CBRE. Taking into account the improving economy, the report credits the mall, at 50 South Main Street, with helping downtown retail sales increase by 36 percent, or $209 million, in 2012.
The “mall is the single most important thing to happen to Salt Lake City in 50 years, maybe more,” said Bruce Bingham, a partner with Hamilton Partners, a Chicago-based real estate developer. “It revitalized downtown.”

People complain that the money should've been used to feed the poor. But isn't providing jobs and boosting the economy also feeding the poor? Yes, it is. And it's far more effective and long lasting.

Is it the responsibility of a church to provide jobs or try to revive a local economy with multi-billion dollar real-estate ventures?

And plus as a bonus, it's laying the foundation for millennial uses. Babylon tenants will go, but the structure will remain. What, do people think there won't be any need for buildings during the millennium?

Shadow... seriously?

[Col. Flagg]

[quote="Col. Flagg"

Let's just say H. David Burton was a little less than honest when he said that. Also Shadowman, regardless of where the funds came from (tithing, donations, gifts, etc.), they are still sacred funds which are to be used to 'build up the kingdom', but I'm not quite so sure the Lord had a $3.5-$4 billion mega mall in mind when he said that? Are we supposed to build up Babylon... or Zion?[/quote]


You used to call it a $2B mall (which was not correct). Now you call it a $3.5 - 4B mall. You always had trouble with the facts didn't you ? ;)[/quote]

Are you ever going to learn how to correctly use HTML coding here on the board?

[Col. Flagg]

I have it on even better Authority that the Mall will be a pile of rubble long before it is ever used for Millennial purposes.

IMHO, the Salt Lake tornado in 1999 was a warning by the Lord and so what did we do... finished a $500 million conference center (fine sanctuaries that rob the poor) and then raised the Lord a $5 billion Babylonian development project. :-s

[shadow]

it was $5 billion (that was the entire cost of the whole project which includes the high-priced condos)...[/color]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1942818 ... featured-1

Come on Boss, read the article-
"The Salt Lake Chamber says $5 billion have gone into the revitalization of downtown Salt Lake City, and a major part of that is soon to open in the new City Creek Center."

First of all, Shady Crick wasn't the only place being revitalized. Secondly, the church wasn't the only one footing all the bills. Plus the church sold a bunch of the condos they built. Some big time Babylonians bought them.
These projects are all included in the 5 quadbillioninfinity dollar amount you love to quote so much-
Utah Performing Arts Center
Frank E. Moss Federal Courthouse
Six Gateway
Questar Corporate Headquarters
Jessie Eccles Quinney Center For Dance and Capitol Theatre Renovation (Blah!)
Public Safety Building
Public Market
Convention Center Hotel
Utah Theater
City Creek
Gallivan Plaza
Harmons City Creek
The Leonardo
222 South Main
O.C. Tanner

[Zowieink]

Ok, I'm going to expose my thoughts to ridicule....but.....why are we so worried about the poor? Instead of always giving them something, how about we teach them and then help them to provide for themselves. Our ancestors, when they came to this country didn't get handouts. There are so many "poor" that really aren't poor. They can still afford cigarettes, liquor, cell phones, and etc. I have a problem just giving them stuff, money, whatever, over and over again without any effort to break the cycle. I know this isn't a popular stance, but if we are so worried about the poor, why does the Church have to go outside its membership (which it does through humanitarian efforts, as well as the myriads of programs for anyone to use)? How many food stamp recipients play the system and really don't want to work. How many 2nd and 3rd generation government welfare recipients really want to work. I think most would rather receive from the government or Church rather than putting up an effort to support themselves.

There are always those that are deserving, and I am not talking about those with mental or physical handicaps, abused and battered women and children (or men for that matter), wounded veterans, or any others that have completely exhausted all other venues. Should we really support the guy on the corner begging for money, only to see him/her 15 minutes later with a 5th of vodka to his lips? Or the beggars at the freeway exits and are actually dressed better than you are, should we give of our substance there, too?

Sorry, too many bleeding hearts and not enough effort to helping them learn how to fish... So, go ahead and shoot the arrows, but if in the long run a multi-billion dollar investment brings in 10+ times the original amount that can then be diversified...isn't that reasonable and prudent? (Thinking of the Parable of the talents where those that multiplied their original talent were praised, while he that buried it in ground with no increase was cast out.)

[Robert Sinclair]

For those who champion building up the old waste places that have deteriorated according to the word of God, purchase of properties, for the farming, or buildings of public benefit thereof, is written to do, but only after you have made sure the members are equal in their temporal things first and foremost, by seeing all have covenants and deeds, that cannot be broken, into their hands sufficient for the support of their families, from the consecrated Tithes and Offerings, without any grudgingly behavior.

Do What The Lord has said to do and be equal in your temporal things first and foremost.

Then the windows of heaven would then open up, and pour out such great blessings, you can prosper together, building all the churches and temples and public use facilities, and ranches, and farms you desire.

Just see to it you obey the command of God given to be equal in your temporal things first and foremost before even one penny is spent on anything else.

And then you may become the most prosperous and happy people ever created by the hand of God living with Enoch and Adam and Melchizedek and Moroni and especially Jesus Christ, happy to have kept his commandments, of giving and imparting, and becoming equal in your temporal things, and this not grudgingly, first and foremost, always and forever except for during the season and the end, where you will have one more chance to lose it all, as at this very time, or stay faithful and equal as God requires, for entrance into his celestial kingdom of heaven. ♡ ♡