STAKE CONFERENCE--Tithing

[samizdat]

I attended stake conference in Mexico. No apostles present but there was an area 70 presiding the conference.

The Stake President opened up with a discourse on the Law of Tithing and the Law of the Fast, quoting Joseph F. Smith, word for word:

God requires one-tenth of our increase to be put into His storehouse; and this is given as a standing law to all of the Stakes of Zion.

By this principle (tithing) the loyalty of the people of this Church shall be put to the test. By this principle it shall be known who is for the kingdom of God and who is against it. By this principle it shall be seen whose hearts are set on doing the will of God and keeping his commandments, thereby sanctifying the land of Zion unto God, and who are opposed to this principle and have cut themselves off from the blessings of Zion. There is a great deal of importance connected with this principle, for by it it shall be known whether we are faithful or unfaithful. In this respect it is as essential as faith in God, as repentance of sin, as baptism for the remission of sin, or as the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The law of tithing is a test by which the people as individuals shall be proved. Any man who fails to observe this principle shall be known as a man who is indifferent to the welfare of Zion, who neglects his duty as a member of the Church, and who does nothing toward the accomplishment of the temporal advancement of the kingdom of God. He contributes nothing, either, toward spreading the gospel to the nations of the earth, and he neglects to do that which would entitle him to receive the blessings and ordinances of the gospel.

The observance of the law of tithing is voluntary. I can pay my tithing or not, as I choose. It is a matter of choice with me, whether I will do it or not do it; but, feeling as I do, loyal to the Church, loyal to its interests, believing that it is right and just to observe the law of tithing I do observe it—on the same principle that I think it is right for me to observe the law of repentance, and of baptism, for the remission of sins.

We who have not paid our tithing in the past, and are therefore under obligations to the Lord, which we are not in position to discharge, the Lord requires that no longer at our hands, but will forgive us for the past if we will observe this law honestly in the future. That is generous and kind, and I feel grateful for it.

I have said, and I will repeat it here, that a man or woman who will always pay his or her tithing will never apostatize. It does not make any difference how small or how large it may be; it is a law of the Lord; it is a source of revenue for the Church; it is God’s requirement, and He has said that those who will not observe it are not worthy of an inheritance in Zion. No man will ever apostatize so long as he will pay his tithing. It is reasonable. Why? Because as long as he has faith to pay his tithing he has faith in the Church and in the principles of the Gospel, and there is some good in him, and there is some light in him. As long as he will do this the tempter will not overcome him and will not lead him astray.

Then I checked where I could find it and it shows up in the manual of TPC: Joseph F. Smith, chapter 31.

Then I thought of this forum about the people that have been justifying their not paying tithing. Repent ye.

[Obrien]

Thanks for the heads up repenting, Samizdat.

I wonder if the church will put out an essay this year saying that past positions on tithing were a product of their times, policy, and not in keeping with our current understanding - then raise it to 20%?

[samizdat]

Thanks for the heads up repenting, Samizdat.

I wonder if the church will put out an essay this year saying that past positions on tithing were a product of their times, policy, and not in keeping with our current understanding - then raise it to 20%?

It really is simple.

Pay tithing, and you will have an increase in faithfulness. Don't pay tithing and you will easily forget that faithfulness.

Ironic, given that there are many that question where the tithing money goes to, and say that the lack of answers to said questions justifies them in not paying tithing.

And said members that have said that, are on this forum bashing the Church.

Exactly as Joseph F. Smith predicted.

[worthit]

I don't remember anyone here recommending not paying tithing to the Lord. I do know that redefining increase to mean gross income does not put the base for tithing within the bounds the Lord has set.

[jbalm]

I think the speaker may have been putting the cart before the horse.

If you have faith in the system, you pay the tithing. Not vice versa.

If paying made you faithful, then nobody would ever stop paying once they started.

[ajax]

I hereby prophesy in the name of common sense, that whosoever does not pay their gym membership, will apostatize from said gym, and those who continue to pay, will never apostatize from it. (This of course has only reference to the building, as the person who may have apostatized from gym membership, in no way means that he/she has apostatized from exercise altogether.)

[BroJones]

I wonder if the church will put out an essay this year saying that past positions on tithing were a product of their times, policy, and not in keeping with our current understanding - then raise it to 20%?

Why the snide remark, Obrien? can you even recognize what you are doing?

Note please the words of Jesus, our Redeemer:

1 Now, behold, because of the thing which you, my servant Oliver Cowdery, have desired to know of me, I give unto you these words:

2 Behold, I have manifested unto you, by my Spirit in many instances, that the things which you have written are true; wherefore you know that they are true.

3 And if you know that they are true, behold, I give unto you a commandment, that you rely upon the things which are written;

4 For in them are all things written concerning the foundation of my church, my gospel, and my rock.

5 Wherefore, if you shall build up my church, upon the foundation of my gospel and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

6 Behold, the world is ripening in iniquity; and it must needs be that the children of men are stirred up unto repentance, both the Gentiles and also the house of Israel.

7 Wherefore, as thou hast been baptized by the hands of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., according to that which I have commanded him, he hath fulfilled the thing which I commanded him.

8 And now, marvel not that I have called him unto mine own purpose, which purpose is known in me; wherefore, if he shall be diligent in keeping my commandments he shall be blessed unto eternal life; and his name is Joseph.

9 And now, Oliver Cowdery, I speak unto you, and also unto David Whitmer, by the way of commandment; for, behold, I command all men everywhere to repent, and I speak unto you, even as unto Paul mine apostle, for you are called even with that same calling with which he was called.

10 Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God;

11 For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him.

12 And he hath risen again from the dead, that he might bring all men unto him, on conditions of repentance.

13 And how great is his joy in the soul that repenteth!

14 Wherefore, you are called to cry repentance unto this people.

15 And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!

16 And now, if your joy will be great with one soul that you have brought unto me into the kingdom of my Father, how great will be your joy if you should bring many souls unto me!

17 Behold, you have my gospel before you, and my rock, and my salvation.

18 Ask the Father in my name in faith, believing that you shall receive, and you shall have the Holy Ghost, which manifesteth all things which are expedient unto the children of men.

19 And if you have not faith, hope, and charity, you can do nothing.

20 Contend against no church, save it be the church of the devil.

21 Take upon you the name of Christ, and speak the truth in soberness.

22 And as many as repent and are baptized in my name, which is Jesus Christ, and endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

23 Behold, Jesus Christ is the name which is given of the Father, and there is none other name given whereby man can be saved;

24 Wherefore, all men must take upon them the name which is given of the Father, for in that name shall they be called at the last day;

25 Wherefore, if they know not the name by which they are called, they cannot have place in the kingdom of my Father.

26 And now, behold, there are others who are called to declare my gospel, both unto Gentile and unto Jew;

27 Yea, even twelve; and the Twelve shall be my disciples, and they shall take upon them my name; and the Twelve are they who shall desire to take upon them my name with full purpose of heart.

28 And if they desire to take upon them my name with full purpose of heart, they are called to go into all the world to preach my gospel unto every creature.

29 And they are they who are ordained of me to baptize in my name, according to that which is written;

30 And you have that which is written before you; wherefore, you must perform it according to the words which are written.

31 And now I speak unto you, the Twelve—Behold, my grace is sufficient for you; you must walk uprightly before me and sin not.

32 And, behold, you are they who are ordained of me to ordain priests and teachers; to declare my gospel, according to the power of the Holy Ghost which is in you, and according to the callings and gifts of God unto men;

33 And I, Jesus Christ, your Lord and your God, have spoken it.

34 These words are not of men nor of man, but of me; wherefore, you shall testify they are of me and not of man;

35 For it is my voice which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit unto you, and by my power you can read them one to another; and save it were by my power you could not have them;

36 Wherefore, you can testify that you have heard my voice, and know my words.

Are you speaking the words of truth with soberness?

[Robert Sinclair]

Tithes are to be used 100% first and foremost for the care of the poor and needy Saints among us, to make us equal in our temporal things and this not grudgingly, then the residue for the building of buildings and the purchasing of lands for the public benefit of the Saints and the worshipping of God.

This has been gone away from as far as is possible, and robbery in the house of the Lord is being done.

An alarm needs to be sounded and a trumpet blown to awaken these old men and administers of the tithing money of God, to return to keep his commandments which Jesus Christ has given us. ♡ ♡

[samizdat]

I hereby prophesy in the name of common sense, that whosoever does not pay their gym membership, will apostatize from said gym, and those who continue to pay, will never apostatize from it. (This of course has only reference to the building, as the person who may have apostatized from gym membership, in no way means that he/she has apostatized from exercise altogether.)

Not in the same league. Not even apples and oranges. More like apples and worms.

It is not me saying it. It is Joseph F. Smith, son of Hyrum Smith, brother of Joseph Smith, President of the Church for 17 years.

Take it or leave it.

[jbalm]

I think the speaker may have been putting the cart before the horse.

If you have faith in the system, you pay the tithing. Not vice versa.

If paying made you faithful, then nobody would ever stop paying once they started.

Actually..paying tithing has brought me many blessings and taught me many lessons...and strengthened my faith exponentially.

Okay.

[Robert Sinclair]

To think for even one single moment that the taking of these tithes to place mega million dollar temples, around the globe, and billion dollar shopping malls and million dollar empty condos is sanctifying the lands of Zion is nigh unto the highest levels blindness one can find.

Well said Enoch of the last days that the Twelve and Seventy Shepherds will destroy all the blind sheep along with themselves, and both be judged, found guilty of not keeping his commandments which he has given them, and they both shall be cast into the firey abyss.

Good to hear and see and know these things that you might awaken yourselves, and weep and howl and sound the alarm and blow the trumpet in Zion that the old men and administers of the law of God might just give ear and awaken themselves and consider,

Can this be true? And even in the days of our fathers?

Yes, yes it is.

Save your poor blind brethern and yourselves from the fiery abyss spoken of by Enoch. ♡ ♡

[ajax]

I hereby prophesy in the name of common sense, that whosoever does not pay their gym membership, will apostatize from said gym, and those who continue to pay, will never apostatize from it. (This of course has only reference to the building, as the person who may have apostatized from gym membership, in no way means that he/she has apostatized from exercise altogether.)

Not in the same league. Not even apples and oranges. More like apples and worms. I couldn't agree more. The worm is destroying the apple.

It is not me saying it. It is Joseph F. Smith, son of Hyrum Smith, brother of Joseph Smith, President of the Church for 17 years. (-| My days of paying homage to mortals are over. (Especially ones who claim special ancestral connections and who implicitly insist that our vernacular in regards to them include middle initials)

Take it or leave it.

[samizdat]

To think for even one single moment that the taking of these tithes to place mega million dollar temples, around the globe, and billion dollar shopping malls and million dollar empty condos is sanctifying the lands of Zion is nigh unto the highest levels blindness one can find.

Well said Enoch of the last days that the Twelve and Seventy Shepherds will destroy all the blind sheep along with themselves, and both be judged, found guilty of not keeping his commandments which he has given them, and they both shall be cast into the firey abyss.

Good to hear and see and know these things that you might awaken yourselves, and weep and howl and sound the alarm and blow the trumpet in Zion that the old men and administers of the law of God might just give ear and awaken themselves and consider,

Can this be true? And even in the days of our fathers?

Yes, yes it is.

Save your poor blind brethern and yourselves from the fiery abyss spoken of by Enoch. ♡ ♡

What part of NO tithing money was used to construct City Creek do you not understand?

Temples are critical to the Plan of Salvation.

Taking care of the poor is also critical to the plan of salvation. The tithes assist in that.

[samizdat]

I hereby prophesy in the name of common sense, that whosoever does not pay their gym membership, will apostatize from said gym, and those who continue to pay, will never apostatize from it. (This of course has only reference to the building, as the person who may have apostatized from gym membership, in no way means that he/she has apostatized from exercise altogether.)

Not in the same league. Not even apples and oranges. More like apples and worms. I couldn't agree more. The worm is destroying the apple.

It is not me saying it. It is Joseph F. Smith, son of Hyrum Smith, brother of Joseph Smith, President of the Church for 17 years. (-| My days of paying homage to mortals are over. (Especially ones who claim special ancestral connections and who implicitly insist that our vernacular in regards to them include middle initials)

Take it or leave it.

Question is who is the worm and who is the apple? Comparing the LDS Church to a gym where one holds membership is nowhere near a valid point.

What has the LDS Church done to tithing money? There is no evidence that tithing was used to construct City Creek Mall.

[wrsales]

Question is who is the worm and who is the apple? Comparing the LDS Church to a gym where one holds membership is nowhere near a valid point.

What has the LDS Church done to tithing money? There is no evidence that tithing was used to construct City Creek Mall.

There's no evidence that it wasn't.

[jbalm]

Question is who is the worm and who is the apple? Comparing the LDS Church to a gym where one holds membership is nowhere near a valid point.

What has the LDS Church done to tithing money? There is no evidence that tithing was used to construct City Creek Mall.

There's no evidence that it wasn't.

You're right. There isn't squat. Since 1960 or so.

[marktheshark]

Tithes are to be used 100% first and foremost for the care of the poor and needy Saints among us, to make us equal in our temporal things and this not grudgingly, then the residue for the building of buildings and the purchasing of lands for the public benefit of the Saints and the worshipping of God.

This has been gone away from as far as is possible, and robbery in the house of the Lord is being done.

An alarm needs to be sounded and a trumpet blown to awaken these old men and administers of the tithing money of God, to return to keep his commandments which Jesus Christ has given us. ♡ ♡

The leaders of the Church are using the funds righteously and according to the needs of the Church at this time, first and foremost.

I think it quite bold (and well misplaced) to accuse the brethren of a misuse of the tithing funds and calling them to repentance. They are in positions of receiving wisdom to make those decisions according to the will of the Lord, and you are not. I think you are the one that needs to repent of accusing the Lord's anointed of sin and a lack of knowledge concerning what Christ would have them do with his received offerings.


You hammer this point daily and I don't think there's disagreement to the nobility of the cause to help the poor. But, equality in our temporal things is akin to the Law of Consecration, which the Lord revoked from the early Saints because of their unwillingness to comply faithfully. This is not currently commanded of the Lord, and will not be commanded again until, most likely, the saints are called back to build Zion or shortly before that time to establish those who are truly willing to be a Zion people.


Btw, a substantial amount of money from the Church IS used to aid the poor and needy worldwide.

I suggest, out of good will, that you refrain from telling people that the anointed leaders of the Church are in error concerning this matter, and also refrain from believing it as well. The Lord's church is in his hands, and abuse and blatant misuse of his tithes on a large scale, as you so claim, will be swiftly dealt with as examples in D&C demonstrate how the Lord quickly removes unfaithful servants from high profile responsibilities.

[samizdat]

Question is who is the worm and who is the apple? Comparing the LDS Church to a gym where one holds membership is nowhere near a valid point.

What has the LDS Church done to tithing money? There is no evidence that tithing was used to construct City Creek Mall.

There's no evidence that it wasn't.

So why all the certainty among the detractors that it WAS tithing money that was spent on City Creek?

All these posts are proving my point. Those that are against the LDS Church on this forum are precisely those that stopped paying tithing justifying themselves on the basis that they don't know exactly where the money goes.

Joseph F. Smith had it right: Those that have stopped paying their tithing, are showing their allegiance AGAINST the Church.

The leaders if they use that money unwisely will be punished by the Lord.

[Robert Sinclair]

When you take surplus tithes and offerings and buy commercial ventures and you say I'm using these profits not direct tithing money, it still came from the faithful Saints thinking and trusting in their Twelve and Seventy Shepherds to spend this money according to the word of God.

God has said first and foremost 100% is to be used to have the Saints become equal in their temporal things and this not grudgingly, for food and for raiment for houses and for lands in whatsoever circumstances the Lord places you, and then go with the residue and purchase lands and build buildings for worshipping God or the public benefit thereof.

Has this been done?

No it has not.

Awaken, acknowledge, and weep and howl and sound the alarm and blow the trumpet in Zion about these things as God has said to do. ♡ ♡

[Robert Sinclair]

The joining with the Mother of Harlots and Whore of all the the earth and of Babylon and Abominations and the Beast of ignorance is what it is.

It has been written and foretold thousands of years ago that Ephraim shall so do and pursue the idols of wealth before taking care of the poor and needy Saints among them.

So it has been written and so it has been done to fullfill the Scriptures written.

All that needs be done is to do as the Lord God has said to do, and weep and howl and sound the alarm and blow the trumpet in Zion about the perversion of equity in his vineyard.

Please help with this as God has said.

Then we can all rejoice and be glad should Ephraim awaken and acknowledge their offence against God and return to keep his commandments which he has given them. ♡ ♡

Yes, then it is promised that the Lord will do great things. ♡ ♡

[Obrien]

I wonder if the church will put out an essay this year saying that past positions on tithing were a product of their times, policy, and not in keeping with our current understanding - then raise it to 20%?

Why the snide remark, Obrien? can you even recognize what you are doing?

Note please the words of Jesus, our Redeemer:

Not to minimize the scriptures, but to facilitate reading the post, I deleted Brother Jones' quote. See it above in its entirety

Are you speaking the words of truth with soberness?

I am 100% stone cold sober, and I did not intend to be snide.

I am not quoting scripture, so it's your decision if I am speaking words of truth.

Sadly, no one can really know if my words will become truth in the future. Based on the changes that have occurred in church positions in the last several years, I would say it is in the realm of possibility to see such a position change. I am not opposed to changes, when they are given by the Lord. I do not believe every change in church policy is from the Lord. I have very little confidence in men, regardless of their position, rank, title or status. Men are men - they are fallible and prone to corruption. Even the best of us / them. I am an agent and a steward, and I will prayerfully decide what to do with the gifts God has given me. It may involve the church, it may not. I no longer see it as vital to include the church in the disposition of my tithes and offerings.

[Robert Sinclair]

Enoch has foretold thousands of years ago what will be done in the latter days. He is one of your ancient grandfathers and has councel for you to hearken unto that he received from the most high. ♡ ♡

[Robert Sinclair]

The Lord Jesus Christ has never revoked the law given to the Church. Only to wait for a little season for to learn.

He said to go and have experience imparting as the gospel requires.

This imparting was of covenants and deeds that cannot be broken be placed into the hands of the poor Saints sufficient for the support of their families from the consecrated Tithes and Offerings without any grudgingly behavior.

Not one covenant and deed has been given to the poor and needy Saints among us since that day fulfilling the words of Jesus Christ perfectly given to Hosea of exactly what Ephraim shall do. ♡ ♡

[Obrien]

The Lord Jesus Christ has never revoked the law given to the Church. Only to wait for a little season for to learn.

He said to go and have experience imparting as the gospel requires.

This imparting was of covenants and deeds that cannot be broken be placed into the hands of the poor Saints sufficient for the support of their families from the consecrated Tithes and Offerings without any grudgingly behavior.

Not one covenant and deed has been given to the poor and needy Saints among us since that day fulfilling the words of Jesus Christ perfectly given to Hosea of exactly what Ephraim shall do. ♡ ♡

♡ ♡ - Robert - when you talk about the seventy and twelve sheep being thrust into the fiery abyss, you should follow up with my revised emoticon. The smiley conveys that you're happy to see them burn, and I know that is not in your heart. I say blow the trumpet long and loud Brother Robert!

[Obrien]

When you take surplus tithes and offerings and buy commercial ventures and you say I'm using these profits not direct tithing money, it still came from the faithful Saints thinking and trusting in their Twelve and Seventy Shepherds to spend this money according to the word of God.

God has said first and foremost 100% is to be used to have the Saints become equal in their temporal things and this not grudgingly, for food and for raiment for houses and for lands in whatsoever circumstances the Lord places you, and then go with the residue and purchase lands and build buildings for worshipping God or the public benefit thereof.

Has this been done?

No it has not.

Awaken, acknowledge, and weep and howl and sound the alarm and blow the trumpet in Zion about these things as God has said to do. ♡ ♡

What exactly would you consider surplus tithes Robert? Because honestly i would say is highly unlikely there are any leftovers, and more likely that things that are supposed to be funded by tithing are being supplemented by other means and business ventures owned by the church. When you consider the amount of money spent every year to not only build new temples AND church buildings AND all the costs associated with that AND all the money it takes to run these buildings AND maintain them continuously, its absolutely ridiculous to me how anyone can possibly think that tithing alone is what is paying for all of that AND have some leftover to build a billion dollar mall. Honestly #-o

And Robert i love ya....but perhaps it's time for you to broaden your focus a little. It's got to be exhausting constantly focusing on ONE subject like you have for as long as you have. :ymhug:

Agreed Pinky - It is insane. All that money could be much better used in supporting real missionary work and the poor among us. I like the idea of home church / neighborhood church. If you really like General Conference, they could beam church to 99% of LDS in North America on the internet or DISH network for a fraction of the cost. Notice I left out the temples - I'm sure you'd have a fit if I suggested we quit building them, and use the ones we already have.

You must not deal with big numbers a lot. $5 billion a year is a lot of money.