Dehlin Circus is Getting Ugly

[Obrien]

I wasn't comparing latter day apostles to Christ, Obrien. Christ isn't on earth publicly ministering like he once did. I think we all get that. I guess you're seeking signs from His apostles? A wicked generation.

Obrien says "Not signs...FRUIT."
Shadow says "Po-tay-to...Po-tah-to..."
Obrien says "It really is more important than that."
Shadow says "Sinner (read Obrien) REPENT and stay on the good ship Zion, the only true and living ship on the face of the earth."
Obrien says "I am on the ship, I just wish the real Captain would steer it."
Shadow says "Real captain??? General conference is in 2 months you wicked heathen"
Obrien, on Obrien
Shadow, on Shadow B-)
Obrien, on Shadow i-)
Shadow, on Obrien :ymdevil:

[creator]

Dehlin said “Because I treasure my Mormon heritage, and because I have hope that the LDS Church can someday become a more mature and tolerant world religion, I would prefer that the LDS Church stop this disciplinary council, and cease to punish members who express sincere doubt or disagreement with its teachings or policies.”
8-|
He would prefer the church cower to world trends and change to meet the times we're in, and for heavens sake, the church needs to quit disciplining members who publicly teach that the church's teachings are false, even after they've been asked and warned to stop doing it.
I can't believe he wrote that and yet can't grasp it. Hopefully his supporters will see his stubborn pride in his public release.

He's a clown. He's getting his spotlight time. Someday he'll look back at his actions and feel immense embarrassment. The sooner, the better.

People that are doing what he is doing deserve to be excommunicated.

[shadow]

Shadow says "Real captain??? General conference is in 2 months you wicked heathen"

Shadow, on Obrien :AR!

[boo]

I wasn't comparing latter day apostles to Christ, Obrien. Christ isn't on earth publicly ministering like he once did. I think we all get that. I guess you're seeking signs from His apostles? A wicked generation.

You are probably too young to remember the rather extensive discussion of this issue in the Temple Endowment before it was all changed.The revelation contained in it was remarkable. but alas probably lost to the rising generation . You can find substantively the same message in the scriptures if you do so with humility. The point is that signs don't generally create faith but they are evidence of the existence of faith among true disciples of Christ , Moroni understood this fact . Mormon 8:24 .the signs that "follow" true disciples is that "they cast out devils... speak with new tongues ...take up serpents...drink poison w/o being harmed and heal the sick" While I have seen all of these things among the laity I am not aware of any claims that ( with the exception of healing )the 15 have demonstrated them. If I am wrong please correct me. If I am right perhaps you should give more heed to the O Briens of the world

[shadow]

No boo, you're probably not aware of any of those claims.

65 And these signs shall follow them that believe—

66 In my name they shall do many wonderful works;

67 In my name they shall cast out devils;

68 In my name they shall heal the sick;

69 In my name they shall open the eyes of the blind, and unstop the ears of the deaf;

70 And the tongue of the dumb shall speak;

71 And if any man shall administer poison unto them it shall not hurt them;

72 And the poison of a serpent shall not have power to harm them.

73 But a commandment I give unto them, that they shall not boast themselves of these things, neither speak them before the world; for these things are given unto you for your profit and for salvation.

Did you pay attention to verse 73? Most seem to stop at 72.

[Obrien]

No boo, you're probably not aware of any of those claims.

65 And these signs shall follow them that believe—

66 In my name they shall do many wonderful works;

67 In my name they shall cast out devils;

68 In my name they shall heal the sick;

69 In my name they shall open the eyes of the blind, and unstop the ears of the deaf;

70 And the tongue of the dumb shall speak;

71 And if any man shall administer poison unto them it shall not hurt them;

72 And the poison of a serpent shall not have power to harm them.

73 But a commandment I give unto them, that they shall not boast themselves of these things, neither speak them before the world; for these things are given unto you for your profit and for salvation.

Did you pay attention to verse 73? Most seem to stop at 72.

I agree - we should not boast of these things. In reality, we have nothing to boast of, since "these things" are wrought by the power of God for the benefit of His children.

Please define "speaking them before the world". Does this mean we shouldn't seek to build our church by flaunting the miracles wrought by God? I agree. Does this mean we should NEVER speak of miracles because they are so holy? No - I think that's a smokescreen for the paucity of miracles in people's lives. Doing things for the praise and attention of the world is roundly condemned in the scriptures.

Things that are given for our profit and salvation should be freely shared among the community of Saints - to glorify God and to bolster faith. We are not even supposed to share these types of experiences in testimony meeting now. What could be a more appropriate place??

[jbalm]

We are not even supposed to share these types of experiences in testimony meeting now. What could be a more appropriate place??[/color]

Since when? There are an abundance of lost-keys-found miracles proclaimed at F&T meeting.

[Lance]

-

[Obrien]

We are not even supposed to share these types of experiences in testimony meeting now. What could be a more appropriate place??[/color]

Since when? There are an abundance of lost-keys-found miracles proclaimed at F&T meeting.

I don't travel much, so most of my testimony meetings are in my home ward. We get a trite little speech each month given in my bishop's best earnest GA voice "The time is now yours, brothers and sisters, to bear your brief, Christ - centered testimony." We don't get lost item found testimonies much, but we get a passel of kiddo's who all seem to know the church is true and that Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet. They're young, they will pick up the other 3 fingers of their testimony as time progresses...

Then we have two older brothers who work in the temple, and they tell us a lot about temple attendance and how low or high it was and why the new Gilbert temple is so cool.

Then we usually have a heartfelt story of someone's childhood and how they just re-learned a lesson they picked up in Primary.

I don't talk in testimony meeting too often, as I teach Gospel Doctrine and they already hear me yammer a lot...

[boo]

No boo, you're probably not aware of any of those claims.

65 And these signs shall follow them that believe—

66 In my name they shall do many wonderful works;

67 In my name they shall cast out devils;

68 In my name they shall heal the sick;

69 In my name they shall open the eyes of the blind, and unstop the ears of the deaf;

70 And the tongue of the dumb shall speak;

71 And if any man shall administer poison unto them it shall not hurt them;

72 And the poison of a serpent shall not have power to harm them.

73 But a commandment I give unto them, that they shall not boast themselves of these things, neither speak them before the world; for these things are given unto you for your profit and for salvation.

Did you pay attention to verse 73? Most seem to stop at 72.

So do I surmise correctly from your response that you know of no such events involving the 15 either?

[jbalm]

We are not even supposed to share these types of experiences in testimony meeting now. What could be a more appropriate place??[/color]

Since when? There are an abundance of lost-keys-found miracles proclaimed at F&T meeting.

I don't travel much, so most of my testimony meetings are in my home ward. We get a trite little speech each month given in my bishop's best earnest GA voice "The time is now yours, brothers and sisters, to bear your brief, Christ - centered testimony." We don't get lost item found testimonies much, but we get a passel of kiddo's who all seem to know the church is true and that Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet. They're young, they will pick up the other 3 fingers of their testimony as time progresses...

Then we have two older brothers who work in the temple, and they tell us a lot about temple attendance and how low or high it was and why the new Gilbert temple is so cool.

Then we usually have a heartfelt story of someone's childhood and how they just re-learned a lesson they picked up in Primary.

I don't talk in testimony meeting too often, as I teach Gospel Doctrine and they already hear me yammer a lot...

Do you ever get the folks who talk about how their messed up order at the McDonald's drive thru made them think of Jesus' suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane?

F&T meeting is what you make of it, doncha know?

[Obrien]

jbalm - I have GOT to get out more. Maybe I'll go to your ward someday.
In direct answer to your question - No, I've not heard such a testimony. If I ever do, I will probably have to leave the building for a few minutes.

[jbalm]

Obrien,

You should hear some good ones out there in AZ. Some of my most memorable ones are from when I lived there.

Lady in the ward: "...and my doctor found a lump in my breast about 3 1/2 inches above the nipple..." (Ha! Nipplemony.)

Or the lady who testified that she had a cancerous mole, and the spirit told her to dunk herself in the bathtub 3 times. And she did. And where the cancerous mole had been, there was new pink skin."

Or the guy who, every month, would recite his favorite scripture "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immorality and eternal life of man." ("Immorality," every time.)

Maybe this should be a different thread.

[Obrien]

I've lived in my current ward for 2.5 years.....and haven't spoke in sacrament. I finally agreed to tomorrow but i said only if i got to choose the topic. My bishop just called me and told me i could. @-)

Speak on tithing...

[Obrien]

Obrien,

You should hear some good ones out there in AZ. Some of my most memorable ones are from when I lived there.

Lady in the ward: "...and my doctor found a lump in my breast about 3 1/2 inches above the nipple..." (Ha! Nipplemony.)

Or the lady who testified that she had a cancerous mole, and the spirit told her to dunk herself in the bathtub 3 times. And she did. And where the cancerous mole had been, there was new pink skin."

Or the guy who, every month, would recite his favorite scripture "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immorality and eternal life of man." ("Immorality," every time.)

Maybe this should be a different thread.

Yes, it should. I bet there are some doozies out there, even WITHOUT including John Dehlin stories.

[jbalm]

My old SP in Michigan gave a talk in conference in which he said, multiple times, "don't be a pickle sucker."

Lots of people had a tough time with that one.

[ebenezerarise]

So...according to you three -- the rank and file of those who attend church are morons. Or am i reading this wrong?

[boo]

They weren't born that way but science shows that severe malnutrition particularly at an early age adversely affects cognitive function as one matures. Once one is so affected it is very difficult to restore that which was lost or to compensate for the damage that was done . To paraphrase Hugh Nibley insipid manuals create insipid church members. He actually said the "poverty of our manuals defies description".

[jbalm]

So...according to you three -- the rank and file of those who attend church are morons. Or am i reading this wrong?

You're reading it wrong.

[Epistemology]

I thought you guys want people to tell about miracles etc at the pulpit more and to not keep those things "secret".

[jbalm]

Real miracles.

[Epistemology]

Real miracles.

If someone posted that that miracle happened to them here on the forum and somebody posted they thought their miracle wasn't real you wouldn't chastise that poster for trivializing that persons miracle?

Serious question I'm not singling you out or anything just curious

[Obrien]

Honestly Epistemology, I only write what I really think / feel, and I assume others do the same. I am not naïve enough to believe I'm correct, but I take what most people write at face value. Except brotherjohnathon. I can't process that stuff...

I would love to hear more miracle stories. I have a couple, maybe I'll share them if someone takes the initiative to start the real miracle thread.

[jbalm]

@ Epistemology,

I should have been more clear I suppose.

The veracity of a particular "miracle" is difficult to ascertain. And I ordinarily wouldn't dispute a claim, no matter how unlikely I think the claim may be (that's why I steer clear of the Julie Rowe threads).

By "real miracles," I meant something other than mere coincidences or bits of luck that all too frequently get trumpeted as miracles. I mean, if finding your keys counts as a miracle, or randomly opening the scriptures to a relevant page counts as a miracle, then card tricks should count as miracles too.

[Epistemology]

Honestly Epistemology, I only write what I really think / feel, and I assume others do the same. I am not naïve enough to believe I'm correct, but I take what most people write at face value. Except brotherjohnathon. I can't process that stuff...

I would love to hear more miracle stories. I have a couple, maybe I'll share them if someone takes the initiative to start the real miracle thread.

What's a real miracle I guess?

I'll start a thread so not to distract here