Dehlin Circus is Getting Ugly

[jbalm]

Their all or nothing attitude can be traced directly to the Big Boys.

[Thinker]

Their all or nothing attitude can be traced directly to the Big Boys.

True, yet cognitive distortions like all-or-nothing (polarized) thinking can be found in all herd mentalities, not just Lds.

If one doesn't question those distortions directly, one will continue applying them - just to different sets of ideologies.

[jbalm]

I agree with that. But some herds have a higher cost of leaving than others.

[shadow]

Is this a different experience form what DS claims to have had, as he still was excommunicated?

Yes, it is different.
I think I read or heard Tom say the he left the church also, but I don't want to track it down. If so, then true, he can't be exed. But even with his second anointing which probably wasn't sealed by the HSofP anyway, he can still be exed. That ordinance was given to some if not all of Joseph's apostles, many of whom Joseph exed when they apostacised for being contrary with the prophet. Having that ordinance is not a bullet proof protection from being excommunicated.

[boo]

Is this a different experience form what DS claims to have had, as he still was excommunicated?

Yes, it is different.
I think I read or heard Tom say the he left the church also, but I don't want to track it down. If so, then true, he can't be exed. But even with his second anointing which probably wasn't sealed by the HSofP anyway, he can still be exed. That ordinance was given to some if not all of Joseph's apostles, many of whom Joseph exed when they apostacised for being contrary with the prophet. Having that ordinance is not a bullet proof protection from being excommunicated.

Congrats Shadow you are absolutely correct.This should be taught much more widely

[karend77]

Is this a different experience form what DS claims to have had, as he still was excommunicated?

Yes, it is different.
I think I read or heard Tom say the he left the church also, but I don't want to track it down. If so, then true, he can't be exed. But even with his second anointing which probably wasn't sealed by the HSofP anyway, he can still be exed. That ordinance was given to some if not all of Joseph's apostles, many of whom Joseph exed when they apostacised for being contrary with the prophet. Having that ordinance is not a bullet proof protection from being excommunicated.

Thanks for clarifying. Since it isnt talked about much anymore (used to be in the 70's), I have forgotten a lot I learned.

[gkearney]

Is this a different experience form what DS claims to have had, as he still was excommunicated?

Yes, it is different.
I think I read or heard Tom say the he left the church also, but I don't want to track it down. If so, then true, he can't be exed. But even with his second anointing which probably wasn't sealed by the HSofP anyway, he can still be exed. That ordinance was given to some if not all of Joseph's apostles, many of whom Joseph exed when they apostacised for being contrary with the prophet. Having that ordinance is not a bullet proof protection from being excommunicated.

If you read the webpage cited you will find that the claim of Tom Phillips being protected in some form by the second anointing is in fact satire. The caselaw that deals with discipline of members who withdraw from a church is Guinn v. Church of Christ (1989) http://tinyurl.com/mnk7g5p" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[karend77]

Is this a different experience form what DS claims to have had, as he still was excommunicated?

Yes, it is different.
I think I read or heard Tom say the he left the church also, but I don't want to track it down. If so, then true, he can't be exed. But even with his second anointing which probably wasn't sealed by the HSofP anyway, he can still be exed. That ordinance was given to some if not all of Joseph's apostles, many of whom Joseph exed when they apostacised for being contrary with the prophet. Having that ordinance is not a bullet proof protection from being excommunicated.

If you read the webpage cited you will find that the claim of Tom Phillips being protected in some form by the second anointing is in fact satire. The caselaw that deals with discipline of members who withdraw from a church is Guinn v. Church of Christ (1989) http://tinyurl.com/mnk7g5p" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just looked up that court case, and I can see why the church will not go after inactive/resigned members for excommunication.

"Of extra importance is the fact that the court ruled that the right to freedom of religion also includes the right to unilaterally resign from a church.
In several subsequent court cases the Mormon church has agreed to the principles established in Guinn. They have not even attempted to argue that the principles do not apply to them"
http://www.mormonnomore.com/legal-precedent" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[gkearney]

As of the 2010 Handbook an immediate name removal request ends all church disciplinary actions at that moment. No further actions can be taken as such would subject the Church to legal threat based on the Guinn v. Church of Christ (1989) ruling.

[BenMcCrea]

I agree the Church doesnt usually hunt down inactive members to execommunicate them. However, the following offers up an interesting thought:
"The reason Phillips does not appear to be pursued for excommunications seems to be because, as the previous managing editor David Twede revealed, “Tom has received a bulletproof ordinance called the Second Anointing from a Mormon apostle years before he stopped attending church.”"
http://mormondisclosures.blogspot.com/2 ... llips.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is this a different experience form what DS claims to have had, as he still was excommunicated?

Hi Karen,

These men were not just inactive but went global in their attempts to persuade others that the Church is a fraud.

Phillips is the man who tried to sue President Monson in a high profile court case in London.

When I checked, neither Mattsson nor Phillips had been disciplined by the Church or had removed their names from the records.

Yes, Tom Phillips had received higher ordinances from an Apostle in the Preston Temple prior to his apostasy and may no longer be eligible to leave the Church. This is different from the claims that DS made which was a personal experience outside of any formal church ordinance.

[BenMcCrea]

Ironically, having interviewed Tom Phillips about his experiences, even John Dehlin decided to pull the recording as he felt uncomfortable discussing such sacred matters publically.

[gkearney]

I agree the Church doesnt usually hunt down inactive members to execommunicate them. However, the following offers up an interesting thought:
"The reason Phillips does not appear to be pursued for excommunications seems to be because, as the previous managing editor David Twede revealed, “Tom has received a bulletproof ordinance called the Second Anointing from a Mormon apostle years before he stopped attending church.”"
http://mormondisclosures.blogspot.com/2 ... llips.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is this a different experience form what DS claims to have had, as he still was excommunicated?

Hi Karen,

These men were not just inactive but went global in their attempts to persuade others that the Church is a fraud.

Phillips is the man who tried to sue President Monson in a high profile court case in London.

When I checked, neither Mattsson nor Phillips had been disciplined by the Church or had removed their names from the records.

Yes, Tom Phillips had received higher ordinances from an Apostle in the Preston Temple prior to his apostasy and may no longer be eligible to leave the Church. This is different from the claims that DS made which was a personal experience outside of any formal church ordinance.

Just how did you check the membership status of these two men?

[lemuel]

You might look at the Guardian article to see the international exposure it is getting .My guess is that it isn't going to help missionary efforts in the UK which is already suffering from declining membership stats and the claims of fraud in the lawsuit filed against Pres Monson.

How could one even tell if missionary efforts of n Europe were harmed?

[Vision]

apostate behavior.

The Savior suffered death for his apostate behavior. Seems the pattern of institutional silencing of critics by any legal means continues on to this very day.

[Elizabeth]

Nonsense.

The Savior suffered death for his apostate behavior. Seems the pattern of institutional silencing of critics by any legal means continues on to this very day.

[BenMcCrea]

apostate behavior.

The Savior suffered death for his apostate behavior. Seems the pattern of institutional silencing of critics by any legal means continues on to this very day.

The Saviour did suffer and die as an infinite and eternal sacrifice that mercy might wipe out the demands of justice.

As the Apostle John explained, only if we walk in the light as Christ is in the light will his blood cleanse us. 1 John 1:6-7

The question then is: can Tom Phillips repent and walk in the light? Only he and the Lord know that.

[boo]

You might look at the Guardian article to see the international exposure it is getting .My guess is that it isn't going to help missionary efforts in the UK which is already suffering from declining membership stats and the claims of fraud in the lawsuit filed against Pres Monson.

How could one even tell if missionary efforts of n Europe were harmed?

interesting point .However the church has long subscribed to the proposition that favorable publicity helps and unfavorable publicity hurts missionary efforts . A major story about how the church is exing a well known church member for taking the same position that the Church of England and popular society does on the same issues and which casts the church as a reactionary ,narrow minded religious cult probably won't appeal tp many in England. Hence the whole PR department. I suppose that they rely on some academic study they once commissioned to reach this conclusion

[Obrien]

in relation to boo's comment ^^ - today in gospel doctrine we talked about Jesus and His relation with people, institutions and His followers. He did not seem to rely on academic commissions or PR to enhance His missionary work. He relied on love and miracles to reach people. He seemed to openly tweak and nettle man-made institutions and the leaders thereof. He challenged His followers to grow in capability and perfection by a more rigorous application of His teachings. How far we have fallen as a church and as disciples...

eta - of course, He was astonishing because He taught with power, and as one having authority. quite unlike what we see manifest in our church.

[Elizabeth]

His mission was unique, times change as do expectations and organisation.

[Obrien]

His mission was unique. His gospel stands alone and is applicable all times. Faith and the holy spirit are what drive the truth of His gospel into the hearts of man. PR, marketing and HeartSell are pale imitations, and they do not have the power to forge lasting change in a person's life.

[ebenezerarise]

His mission was unique. His gospel stands alone and is applicable all times. Faith and the holy spirit are what drive the truth of His gospel into the hearts of man. PR, marketing and HeartSell are pale imitations, and they do not have the power to forge lasting change in a person's life.

Of course! But Christ didn't have a popular media working against him 24/7. I'm appalled at the media coverage of the Dehlin case. They clearly miss that the Church isn't "going after" him or anyone else. But that's how they portray it.

Truth in reporting. Seems to be an issue these days.

[shadow]

eta - of course, He was astonishing because He taught with power, and as one having authority. quite unlike what we see manifest in our church.

As it was with Christ then, it is today. The gospel is the same.
Those who reject it today would've rejected it from Christ when He was ministering on the earth. Most rejected Him then too, Obrien. Where you see a lack of authority, others find it. And agency rolls on...

[Obrien]

eta - of course, He was astonishing because He taught with power, and as one having authority. quite unlike what we see manifest in our church.

As it was with Christ then, it is today. The gospel is the same. The GOSPEL is the same, I agree, Bro Shadow. You denigrate Christ when you imply our current leaders are even a shadow of Him. Do you really see the fruits of eternal power in our current leadership? I'm not talking about the "keys of sealing" here, I mean the day to day miraculous manifestations of the power of the Son. Where is the throng of blessed people who were cured of debilitating disease at their hands? Where is the press who touch the hem of their suitcoat, and are healed? Where is the multitude that is miraculously filled with loaves and fishes where there was none? I believe miracles do occur these days. I have been healed by faithful men on several occasions. I believe. I do not see these fruits among the current GAs. The course of study in Gospel Doctrine this year is driving that point home for me. Read the whole chapters, Shadow, not just the suggested readings, and your mind may be opened. The contrast between Christ and his fledgling apostles compared to our current GAs is stark.

Those who reject it today would've rejected it from Christ when He was ministering on the earth. Most rejected Him then too, Obrien. One of the main sources of opposition to the true Christ was the established religious leadership. Perhaps their self interest and devotion to their prophets kept them from seeing the Light.

Where you see a lack of authority, others find it. Perhaps they have authority - I'm in no position to judge that. Are they using that authority as the original apostles did, based on the NT? I again ask, where are the fruits? Surely if the fruits were manifest the PR department would be there to hyperlink to the photos... And agency rolls on...

[Obrien]

His mission was unique. His gospel stands alone and is applicable all times. Faith and the holy spirit are what drive the truth of His gospel into the hearts of man. PR, marketing and HeartSell are pale imitations, and they do not have the power to forge lasting change in a person's life.

Of course! But Christ didn't have a popular media working against him 24/7. I'm appalled at the media coverage of the Dehlin case. They clearly miss that the Church isn't "going after" him or anyone else. But that's how they portray it.

Truth in reporting. Seems to be an issue these days.

I have no idea what the popular media in ancient Palestine looked like or functioned like...I suppose you don't either. Based on the NT, the fame of Jesus spread abroad quickly because of His works and His teachings. I read it was mostly the religious and civil leaders of the people that worked against him.

I haven't followed the media coverage of John Dehlin because it really is unimportant to me. I do have issues with the way news is reported, but so does KCopeland, and I think we are on opposite sides of most issues. There's always a reason to be appalled when you don't agree with someone - welcome to mortality.

[shadow]

I wasn't comparing latter day apostles to Christ, Obrien. Christ isn't on earth publicly ministering like he once did. I think we all get that. I guess you're seeking signs from His apostles? A wicked generation.