Dehlin Circus is Getting Ugly

[ebenezerarise]

The national media is soft-shoeing it but the local media is telling a VERY ugly direction the whole John Dehlin thing is taking.

http://news.hjnews.com/allaccess/vigil- ... 533a6.html.

Dehlin wrote an 11-page press release outlining his views. 11 pages! Don't give me this stuff about him being picked on. I don't need to sit in that room to know this guy needs to be released from his covenants. He clearly doesn't have a testimony and clearly harbors extreme attitudes about the Church.

He knows, you know, I know, and the media knows the Church really has no choice in the matter.

Looks like he's going down with as much fire, flash and noise as possible. Of course, he also knows that like Kate Kelly, once the deed is done the attention reduces significantly.

And that will cost him --http://www.sltrib.com/home/2146441-155/ ... his-living

[shadow]

Dehlin said “Because I treasure my Mormon heritage, and because I have hope that the LDS Church can someday become a more mature and tolerant world religion, I would prefer that the LDS Church stop this disciplinary council, and cease to punish members who express sincere doubt or disagreement with its teachings or policies.”
8-|
He would prefer the church cower to world trends and change to meet the times we're in, and for heavens sake, the church needs to quit disciplining members who publicly teach that the church's teachings are false, even after they've been asked and warned to stop doing it.
I can't believe he wrote that and yet can't grasp it. Hopefully his supporters will see his stubborn pride in his public release.

He's a clown. He's getting his spotlight time. Someday he'll look back at his actions and feel immense embarrassment. The sooner, the better.

[ebenezerarise]

I'm fairly local to this situation and it is really stirring people up here in Cache Valley.

I actually had some sympathy for Dehlin early on but he's become so shrill and outlandish that he really has become, as you state, a clown about this whole thing.

Even non-members here are starting to scratch their heads and say "What the heck....?"

[boo]

You might look at the Guardian article to see the international exposure it is getting .My guess is that it isn't going to help missionary efforts in the UK which is already suffering from declining membership stats and the claims of fraud in the lawsuit filed against Pres Monson.

[ebenezerarise]

You have a link? I wouldn't expect any of the UK media to treat this well either....

[Fiannan]

You have a link? I wouldn't expect any of the UK media to treat this well either....

No, you have to be Muslim to get any sympathy in that country.

[marktheshark]

Dehlin said “Because I treasure my Mormon heritage, and because I have hope that the LDS Church can someday become a more mature and tolerant world religion, I would prefer that the LDS Church stop this disciplinary council, and cease to punish members who express sincere doubt or disagreement with its teachings or policies.”
8-|
He would prefer the church cower to world trends and change to meet the times we're in, and for heavens sake, the church needs to quit disciplining members who publicly teach that the church's teachings are false, even after they've been asked and warned to stop doing it.
I can't believe he wrote that and yet can't grasp it. Hopefully his supporters will see his stubborn pride in his public release.

He's a clown. He's getting his spotlight time. Someday he'll look back at his actions and feel immense embarrassment. The sooner, the better.

Lol, exactly.

He's acting a clown.

[samizdat]

In Mexico, hardly anyone knows who this John Dehlin is. But it is clear that he is following the path of Kate Kelly and Sonja Johnson...

[boo]

You have a link? I wouldn't expect any of the UK media to treat this well either....

http://www.theguardian.com/us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Col. Flagg]

Just like Snuffer and Kelly.

[Fiannan]

You have a link? I wouldn't expect any of the UK media to treat this well either....

http://www.theguardian.com/us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From an outsider's view, as this reporter obviously is, she does a fairly good job in dealing with this issue. And while The Guardian is one of the best news publications they are left-leaning, but of the variety of those who feel like sticking up for the underdog. This is why Obama hates that paper so much...they have done more to expose the US police state than anyone else. However, here they would be expected to see this as a little guy getting muscled by the main LDS Church.

Naturally most people on this forum are far more versed in LDS issues and might find the reporting negative.

[samizdat]

Just like Snuffer and Kelly.

Two different cases though they are opposites of the same coin.

Denver is more fundamentalist. Kelly, outright liberal.

[Col. Flagg]

Just like Snuffer and Kelly.

Two different cases though they are opposites of the same coin.

Denver is more fundamentalist. Kelly, outright liberal.

I just meant speaking out publicly in opposition against official church policy after being asked to stop … and they know full well it is going to lead to church disciplinary action and/or ex-communication, but they still do it. The ugly sin of pride.

[Obrien]

Just like Snuffer and Kelly.

Two different cases though they are opposites of the same coin.

Denver is more fundamentalist. Kelly, outright liberal.

I just meant speaking out publicly in opposition against official church policy after being asked to stop … and they know full well it is going to lead to church disciplinary action and/or ex-communication, but they still do it. The ugly sin of pride.

What about the ugly sin of exercising unrighteous dominion? That sin leads to an "amen" to your priesthood.

[ebenezerarise]

All three -- Snuffer, Kelly and Dehlin -- have differing issues but their methods are turning out the same. For a long while I looked upon Dehlin with some sympathy because he was, I thought, pretty fair in his commentary about his treatment by local leadership. But over the course of the past year he's developed a real edge to him. Now he's combative, confrontational and exaggerated. He's become shrill.

The funny thing to me was that about a year ago he predicted he would be excommunicated and felt that he actually should. Now it appears his feelings have changed.

Call me cynical if you must but this is going to hit him in the pocketbook. And the man does have a family to support.

[ebenezerarise]

What about the ugly sin of exercising unrighteous dominion? That sin leads to an "amen" to your priesthood.

And just who would be guilty of that? Dehlin himself has chronicled his interaction with his local leadership. I can't see that any of it has been unreasonable. You feel differently or know something more?

[Obrien]

Just like Snuffer and Kelly.

Two different cases though they are opposites of the same coin.

Denver is more fundamentalist. Kelly, outright liberal.

I'm a Kate Kelly agnostic - her membership and / or excommunication was really not a big deal to me either way. That said (and it is the truth), can any of you actually show from the scriptures where women are precluded from holding the priesthood and holding offices in the church. Anyone...?

[Obrien]

What about the ugly sin of exercising unrighteous dominion? That sin leads to an "amen" to your priesthood.

And just who would be guilty of that? Dehlin himself has chronicled his interaction with his local leadership. I can't see that any of it has been unreasonable. You feel differently or know something more?

I am totally unrelated .. the ultimate outside observer ... no special insight or attachment to the situation. I have listened to 30ish episodes of his podcast over the last 2 years. I have heard his recent interview and podcast about the process of his "court of love", and I think that process would grind down and alienate many people who had to go through it. At some point, I can understand his desire to be done with the whole mess. It just seems narrow minded and exclusive of the church to ex people for having different opinions than the "mainstream" membership holds.

[shadow]

What about the ugly sin of exercising unrighteous dominion? That sin leads to an "amen" to your priesthood.

I haven't seen it in any of the recent courts from the Snuffster to Kelly to Dehlin, who hasn't even had his day yet. All of these people have been given ample opportunity to stop their apostate behavior.

Different opinions are fine but when you publicly teach those different opinions, especially after being asked not to, then at some point it needs to be put to an end, at least as a church member.

[braingrunt]

I'm a Kate Kelly agnostic - her membership and / or excommunication was really not a big deal to me either way. That said (and it is the truth), can any of you actually show from the scriptures where women are precluded from holding the priesthood and holding offices in the church. Anyone...?

To start:

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to rule; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to rule in the church.

(The non JST is even worse)

[ebenezerarise]

It just seems narrow minded and exclusive of the church to ex people for having different opinions than the "mainstream" membership holds.

Of course it seems narrow minded and exclusive to a self-described outside observer who has only heard one side of the story. If you've invested in 30 episodes of his podcast you're far more invested in this than I am. I sit on the periphery and watch the ripple effects of his behaviors. I long ago disagreed with him on matters of doctrine and history.

That being said, NONE of us have been there for the LONG time he has been counseled on this stuff. His podcast is a decade old, for crying out loud. I think the Church and his local leadership has been abundantly patient.

I think it has boiled down to this: "John, are you keeping your covenants or not? We don't think you are because you are on the record as having said this, this, this and this. And you associate with these apostates. You made a covenant not do this kind of stuff. Don't you think it is time to repent?"

He's had that opportunity over and over and over. By his admission he says this.

So where does the Church deserve criticism here for bullying someone who disagrees with them? Where exactly has he done that?

I think perhaps what really works me up the most about this is that Dehlin and his family quit attending church last summer. Now he claims people in his ward are treating him and his family harshly. They are mean, they judge, they talk behind their backs.

The world is pretty small in Cache Valley. I'm not there in his ward or neighborhood but I know people who are. And there is a LOT more to this story.

They are being characterized unfairly. As is the Church. Dehlin seems to be completely comfortable demonizing the Church and claiming it is all because of his contrary opinions.

The truth is that it isn't because of his opinions.

It is because of his behavior.

[Obrien]

Can you show the opposite? The lack of scriptural reference means nothing.

Only in the Book of Moses - I think it's chapter 5 where Adam and Eve (as one flesh, a couple) are commanded to worship the Lord and offer firstlings of the flock. Of course, in the previous chapter, Eve is told her desire will be to her husband, and I suppose that could be misread to be a reference to the Priesthood.

I'm really just seeking a real, scripture-based reason why women can't hold the Phood and preside over anything but kiddies in Primary.

[Obrien]

What about the ugly sin of exercising unrighteous dominion? That sin leads to an "amen" to your priesthood.

I haven't seen it in any of the recent courts from the Snuffster to Kelly to Dehlin, who hasn't even had his day yet. All of these people have been given ample opportunity to stop their apostate behavior.

Different opinions are fine but when you publicly teach those different opinions, especially after being asked not to, then at some point it needs to be put to an end, at least as a church member.

I hope none of your opinions ever fall outside of the "mainstream".

[Elizabeth]

Who cares? Women do not need any more responsibilities. They have enough already.

[Obrien]

I'm a Kate Kelly agnostic - her membership and / or excommunication was really not a big deal to me either way. That said (and it is the truth), can any of you actually show from the scriptures where women are precluded from holding the priesthood and holding offices in the church. Anyone...?

To start:

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to rule; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to rule in the church.

(The non JST is even worse)

I guess we should cancel relief society and have the women stay home.