LDS Freedom Forum

Muerte Rosa wrote:

LittleLion wrote:

Muerte Rosa wrote:i just think that sometimes some people take this stuff too far...assuming that EVERYTHING and EVERYONE is. "In on it"

The facts speak for themselves. If you do not want to acknowledge them that is your choice. Critical thinking is not conspiratorial in nature, it is thinking for yourself given the facts at hand. To arbitrarily discount them is not wise. I mean really, we spend more money on the work of death than all the other countries combined. This is a fact. And it says something. Along with all the other information that I and others have given you and is all easily re-searchable and corroborated by the spirit. *shrugs*

What facts are you referring to exactly? The ones that you see and hear with your own eyes and ears, in the oval office? Secret meetings with the president? Over in the middle east? How do YOU obtain your "FACTS"? Cause unless you have done any of those things, you're probably relying on someone else's information. I'm not saying that you are wrong, all I'm saying is unless you are getting your info directly from the source via eyes and ears in person....it's just speculation on your part, same for me.

Muerte Rosa wrote:Iran has killed zero innocent people? What about all the other surrounding countries?

For most part, Iraq remained on the defensive for the next six years of war, unable and unwilling to launch any major offensives, while Iran launched no fewer than 70 offensives against the Iraqis. Iraq's strategy changed from holding territory in Iran to denying Iran any major gains in Iraq (as well as holding onto disputed territories and Iran's border areas)

gclayjr wrote:It isn't Muerta Rosa that is the foolish sheep here. You guys are consistently missing the obvious logic flaw that she and a very few others here have wasted their energy trying to point out.

She doesn't claim that information produced by our government is absolute fact... I'm sure she takes all with a critical eye

She doesn't claim that Fox news reporting is absolute fact... I'm sure she cross checks what they say.

You would get no arguement from me (and I would guess her also) if you focused on pointing out that we cannot trust what we here from the government or from the MSM.

Where you guys fall into crazyland is when you then arrogantly fall in like sheep unquestioningly following whatever any crazy conspiracy theorist says against our country.

Yes our government is corrupt, but there are are other governments even more corrupt out there, and they are not merely innocently reacting to our "bullying".

Regards,

George Clay

Please feel free to state any lies told by me or LittleLion and not just label us "sheeple that fall into crazyland". FACTS are not crazy. Theories and lies and propaganda, THOSE are CRAZY.

gclayjr wrote:Army of Truth,

Please feel free to state any lies told by me or LittleLion and not just label us "sheeple that fall into crazyland". FACTS are not crazy. Theories and lies and propaganda, THOSE are CRAZY.

What a waste of time. You can't even read the post above this! I guess you just continue with the "You cant respond to our facts mantra regardless of refutations of your "Facts.

Regards,

George Clay

Muerte Rosa wrote: What i don't believe is that this "conspiracy" is soo huge and all encompassing that our government and military could go to all these places under the premise of "fighting terrorism" all while causing all of it, but blaming it on the Muslims.......and having these terrorist groups (al-Qaida, Taliban, Hamas, Boko etc) all play along with it claiming to do all this stuff.

gclayjr wrote:You make so many incorrect assertions that unless I want to spend all of my time pointing out every ridiculous assertion and not live my life, George Clay

Muerte Rosa wrote:

Army Of Truth wrote:

Muerte Rosa wrote: What i don't believe is that this "conspiracy" is soo huge and all encompassing that our government and military could go to all these places under the premise of "fighting terrorism" all while causing all of it, but blaming it on the Muslims.......and having these terrorist groups (al-Qaida, Taliban, Hamas, Boko etc) all play along with it claiming to do all this stuff.

If you were some psycho terrorist gang out in the middle east funded by the CIA, wouldn't you play along too by continuing to do what you do best - terrorize?

I've lived in Saudi Arabia myself for 8 years so I know first hand what goes on there and what the Muslims do in Mecca, etc. And I still say the media is blowing the "Muslim extremist" "Muslim Terrorist" card way out of proportion. I have many muslim friends that I still keep in contact with. Never once was I threatened by any muslim in Saudi Arabia.

I never said that it's the Muslims fault....it's Muslim EXTREMISTS....I am capable separating the two. And as far as the cia Funding terrorists....where is your proof of that?

How the US Helped Create Al Qaeda and ISIS

by GARIKAI CHENGU


Much like Al Qaeda, the Islamic State (ISIS) is made-in-the-USA, an instrument of terror designed to divide and conquer the oil-rich Middle East and to counter Iran’s growing influence in the region.

The fact that the United States has a long and torrid history of backing terrorist groups will surprise only those who watch the news and ignore history.

The CIA first aligned itself with extremist Islam during the Cold War era. Back then, America saw the world in rather simple terms: on one side, the Soviet Union and Third World nationalism, which America regarded as a Soviet tool; on the other side, Western nations and militant political Islam, which America considered an ally in the struggle against the Soviet Union.

The director of the National Security Agency under Ronald Reagan, General William Odom recently remarked, “by any measure the U.S. has long used terrorism. In 1978-79 the Senate was trying to pass a law against international terrorism – in every version they produced, the lawyers said the U.S. would be in violation.”

During the 1970’s the CIA used the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt as a barrier, both to thwart Soviet expansion and prevent the spread of Marxist ideology among the Arab masses. The United States also openly supported Sarekat Islam against Sukarno in Indonesia, and supported the Jamaat-e-Islami terror group against Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto in Pakistan. Last but certainly not least, there is Al Qaeda.

Lest we forget, the CIA gave birth to Osama Bin Laden and breastfed his organization during the 1980’s. Former British Foreign Secretary, Robin Cook, told the House of Commons that Al Qaeda was unquestionably a product of Western intelligence agencies. Mr. Cook explained that Al Qaeda, which literally means an abbreviation of “the database” in Arabic, was originally the computer database of the thousands of Islamist extremists, who were trained by the CIA and funded by the Saudis, in order to defeat the Russians in Afghanistan.

America’s relationship with Al Qaeda has always been a love-hate affair. Depending on whether a particular Al Qaeda terrorist group in a given region furthers American interests or not, the U.S. State Department either funds or aggressively targets that terrorist group. Even as American foreign policy makers claim to oppose Muslim extremism, they knowingly foment it as a weapon of foreign policy.

The Islamic State is its latest weapon that, much like Al Qaeda, is certainly backfiring. ISIS recently rose to international prominence after its thugs began beheading American journalists. Now the terrorist group controls an area the size of the United Kingdom.

In order to understand why the Islamic State has grown and flourished so quickly, one has to take a look at the organization’s American-backed roots. The 2003 American invasion and occupation of Iraq created the pre-conditions for radical Sunni groups, like ISIS, to take root. America, rather unwisely, destroyed Saddam Hussein’s secular state machinery and replaced it with a predominantly Shiite administration. The U.S. occupation caused vast unemployment in Sunni areas, by rejecting socialism and closing down factories in the naive hope that the magical hand of the free market would create jobs. Under the new U.S.-backed Shiite regime, working class Sunni’s lost hundreds of thousands of jobs. Unlike the white Afrikaners in South Africa, who were allowed to keep their wealth after regime change, upper class Sunni’s were systematically dispossessed of their assets and lost their political influence. Rather than promoting religious integration and unity, American policy in Iraq exacerbated sectarian divisions and created a fertile breading ground for Sunni discontent, from which Al Qaeda in Iraq took root.

The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) used to have a different name: Al Qaeda in Iraq. After 2010 the group rebranded and refocused its efforts on Syria.

There are essentially three wars being waged in Syria: one between the government and the rebels, another between Iran and Saudi Arabia, and yet another between America and Russia. It is this third, neo-Cold War battle that made U.S. foreign policy makers decide to take the risk of arming Islamist rebels in Syria, because Syrian President, Bashar al-Assad, is a key Russian ally. Rather embarrassingly, many of these Syrian rebels have now turned out to be ISIS thugs, who are openly brandishing American-made M16 Assault rifles.

America’s Middle East policy revolves around oil and Israel. The invasion of Iraq has partially satisfied Washington’s thirst for oil, but ongoing air strikes in Syria and economic sanctions on Iran have everything to do with Israel. The goal is to deprive Israel’s neighboring enemies, Lebanon’s Hezbollah and Palestine’s Hamas, of crucial Syrian and Iranian support.

ISIS is not merely an instrument of terror used by America to topple the Syrian government; it is also used to put pressure on Iran.

The last time Iran invaded another nation was in 1738. Since independence in 1776, the U.S. has been engaged in over 53 military invasions and expeditions. Despite what the Western media’s war cries would have you believe, Iran is clearly not the threat to regional security, Washington is. An Intelligence Report published in 2012, endorsed by all sixteen U.S. intelligence agencies, confirms that Iran ended its nuclear weapons program in 2003. Truth is, any Iranian nuclear ambition, real or imagined, is as a result of American hostility towards Iran, and not the other way around.

America is using ISIS in three ways: to attack its enemies in the Middle East, to serve as a pretext for U.S. military intervention abroad, and at home to foment a manufactured domestic threat, used to justify the unprecedented expansion of invasive domestic surveillance.

By rapidly increasing both government secrecy and surveillance, Mr. Obama’s government is increasing its power to watch its citizens, while diminishing its citizens’ power to watch their government. Terrorism is an excuse to justify mass surveillance, in preparation for mass revolt.

The so-called “War on Terror” should be seen for what it really is: a pretext for maintaining a dangerously oversized U.S. military. The two most powerful groups in the U.S. foreign policy establishment are the Israel lobby, which directs U.S. Middle East policy, and the Military-Industrial-Complex, which profits from the former group’s actions. Since George W. Bush declared the “War on Terror” in October 2001, it has cost the American taxpayer approximately 6.6 trillion dollars and thousands of fallen sons and daughters; but, the wars have also raked in billions of dollars for Washington’s military elite.

In fact, more than seventy American companies and individuals have won up to $27 billion in contracts for work in postwar Iraq and Afghanistan over the last three years, according to a recent study by the Center for Public Integrity. According to the study, nearly 75 per cent of these private companies had employees or board members, who either served in, or had close ties to, the executive branch of the Republican and Democratic administrations, members of Congress, or the highest levels of the military.

In 1997, a U.S. Department of Defense report stated, “the data show a strong correlation between U.S. involvement abroad and an increase in terrorist attacks against the U.S.” Truth is, the only way America can win the “War On Terror” is if it stops giving terrorists the motivation and the resources to attack America. Terrorism is the symptom; American imperialism in the Middle East is the cancer. Put simply, the War on Terror is terrorism; only, it is conducted on a much larger scale by people with jets and missiles.

if they did get greedy and wanted some of Iraq's territory after they were invaded.

Muerte Rosa wrote:And as far as the cia Funding terrorists....where is your proof of that?

gclayjr wrote:LittleLion,

You make so many incorrect assertions that unless I want to spend all of my time pointing out every ridiculous assertion and not live my life, I'll never be able to point out every wrong "fact" that you assert. But since you picked the "Iran has invaded nobody soapbox to stand on, I will point out that Iran, via Hezbollah has conquered Lebanon, and invaded Israel many times. They are major players in that bloodbath that we know of as Syria. And if you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore proxy wars, I might point out that one of the bloodiest wars in the 20th century was the Iran-Iraq war. While Iraq did start it, most of the fighting involved Iran's invasion and attempts to conquer IRAQ territory.


Wikipedia

For most part, Iraq remained on the defensive for the next six years of war, unable and unwilling to launch any major offensives, while Iran launched no fewer than 70 offensives against the Iraqis. Iraq's strategy changed from holding territory in Iran to denying Iran any major gains in Iraq (as well as holding onto disputed territories and Iran's border areas)

Regards,

George Clay

Muerte Rosa wrote:I stand corrected..if GARIKAI CHENGU said so....must be true. What was i thinking?

Certainly there is a lot of blame to go around, and it seems like you acknowledge that the U.S. bears some responsibility. I don;t think you yet see how all of the wars are sold to the populace, largely on false pretenses. But maybe you do. At any rate, some people are obviously very invested in their beliefs system and simply resort to name calling and ranting. Not much chance of discussion with such individuals.

The operation proposed creating public support for a war against Cuba by blaming it for terrorist acts that would actually be perpetrated by the US Government (this is "False Flag Terrorism").[3] To this end, Operation Northwoods proposals recommended hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. It stated:

The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.

Several other proposals were included within Operation Northwoods, including real or simulated actions against various US military and civilian targets. The operation recommended developing a "Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington".

The plan was drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, signed by Chairman Lyman Lemnitzer and sent to the Secretary of Defense. Although part of the US government's anti-communist Cuban Project, Operation Northwoods was never officially accepted; it was authorized by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but then rejected by President John F. Kennedy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

. . . . the dirty truth that most Americans, including most Christians, seem unwilling to accept is that most of the conflict between the United States and the Muslim nations of the Middle East has been created by our own federal government.

I speak regularly with retired Special Forces military personnel who share with me the way our own CIA and State Department have bullied, lied to, intimidated, and betrayed our Muslim friends in the Middle East. They have seen it up close and personal. This has been going on for decades. In fact, our federal government has tortured hundreds of people in the Middle East in some of the most vile ways possible. The only difference is, they don’t broadcast it over television.

I recently asked a retired Green Beret, “How much of the conflict between the U.S. and Middle Eastern states would stop if Washington, D.C., would simply stop meddling in the internal affairs of those countries?” This Green Beret served in the the Middle East for years; he was a Special Ops soldier. He saw the surreptitious and covert things that our government routinely does--things the public doesn’t see. His answer to me was, “100%.”

Our own federal government put the Taliban in power, put Al Qaeda in power, and put ISIS in power. Our federal government often uses war and conflict to cover up its own murderous activity or to kill the very people that they formerly gave arms to, supported, befriended, etc. Whether one wants to believe it or not, most of the conflict in the Middle East has been caused by our own government. We are our own worst enemy. How convenient that we make Muslim people everywhere the straw man to divert attention away from the real criminals.

Muerte Rosa wrote:No I'll just wait for Obama and the CIA to tell me what to think. Or maybe Brian Williams? ;)

Fiannan wrote:

Muerte Rosa wrote:No I'll just wait for Obama and the CIA to tell me what to think. Or maybe Brian Williams? ;)

Isn't he the reporter who, single-handedly, took out an Iraqi machine gun nest, saved hundreds of US soldiers and then, wearing only a knife and sandals, fought off an army of terrorists who were about to attack an orphanage in Baghdad?