LDS Freedom Forum

Have you ever wandered why bad things happen to good people? Why people suffer in pain? Why was there a holocaust? Why do little babies and children die before their time? But the big question I ask my self is why doesn't god stop these things? I then have to ask myself what kind of god do I want to believe in? So hears a poll question for you.
The worst thing about asking questions like these are the fact that I only have tears for answers. And that's ok. I'm not alone. I have you out there, whoever you are. You've probably asked yourself the same thing. So please chime in.
If you had a choice between worship 2 gods. Which would you choose?

I think unbelievable misery and pain is unavoidable. Even if he's not powerful enough to stop it. I would so tremendously happy to know he is just there and good. That everything will be better when we return home.

Ultimately, God is GOoD.
God is the big picture and that is good, but the smaller focus can be not so good.
God is beyond comprehension and seemingly paradoxical- giving up power as a way to have creative power in infinite ways. God is often found in joy but especially in pain.

The greatest among you shall be your servant.

It seems that God (and spirituality) is experienced only by "letting go and letting God." Yet, when we pray for something, we are only sincere if we are willing to do what we can to bring what we ask. Again paradox - care deeply and passionately - yet humbly accept whatever God's will is. This is why it is true if you "seek first the kingdom of God, all things will be added unto you."

I used to hurt so badly for some I know are suffering - especially children. Most prayers every day are for all children (no matter what stage of development). I've also felt helpless as I've considered extreme poverty I've seen or heard about - it's heart breaking. But what good am I if I dwell on it without doing anything? And to be most effective in loving others (especially my family first), I need to also care for myself - to love others AS well as myself (the greatest commandments).

My concept of God is also evolving - and probably will be the rest of my life.
I consider God in different ways - as loving energy - a force within us and throughout the universe that causes all life to strive for good.
I also consider God as my Heavenly Father and Mother - who love me and everyone unconditionally.
God is also everyone - all children of God - all of us make up God. We each are unique expressions of God. The implications of that can get too deep.

Neither question is valid. Since neither can be true, one would have to deny the true God in order to answer one or the other.

Why do you not have enough respect for God to capitalize His title?

If one were not able to suffer, there would be no point whatsoever in coming to earth. In order to have choices, there has to be opposition.

It is normal to feel sad when we lose someone, but all of the possible destinations after death are better than here except for Hell.

Sometimes we have to put our big boy pants on and have some faith.

FSM wrote:Have you ever wandered why bad things happen to good people? Why people suffer in pain? Why was there a holocaust? Why do little babies and children die before their time? But the big question I ask my self is why doesn't god stop these things? I then have to ask myself what kind of god do I want to believe in? So hears a poll question for you.
The worst thing about asking questions like these are the fact that I only have tears for answers. And that's ok. I'm not alone. I have you out there, whoever you are. You've probably asked yourself the same thing. So please chime in.
If you had a choice between worship 2 gods. Which would you choose?

How about an omnipotent, loving, non-interfering God?

The poll question is a false dichotomy.

You are blaming God for what humanity dose. We have agency. We can murder. Rape and do all sorts of horrible things durring this test.

But hurt and pain enacted upon us only defines us if we let it. Which is part of our agency. To be a victim of pain. Or see pain as a blessing. Rape victims have forgiven their attackers and let go of the hurt. And others hold onto that pain and get raped over and over again in their heads thinking and stewing over it being a victim.

Gods time if you think of it. 1000 years is a day to him. Our Lives are 2 hours to him. We are gone from his preasence for 2 hours durring our test. Durring that 2 hours we are to prove ourselfs. For good or ill we work our works. There are multiple tests durring those 2 hours. Good,bad ,service ,knowledge. If we will choose again agency or satans plan of forced compliance. And many others.

The test wouldn't be a test if there was only one choice. No pain!!!
And by the way that's satans plan.

You look at pain as a bad thing. It's not its just part of the test. If you will raise above it. If you will let it control you. If you will learn from it. If you will allow yourself to grow from it or turn your heart hard and cold.

The choice is your. God won't choose for you. No one eles will either. This is your test.

So the question for you is this.

If becoming like God meant that you had to learn to raise above pain would you do it?

If the answer is no. Then the celestial kingdom is out of reach for you currently.


In order to be like God we have to be able to drink from the bitter cup like he did for us.

I don't think FSM said that there could only be those two types of gods, just which we would choose if there was.

For me, God is a friend. He isn't some distant powerful monarch sitting on his throne unwilling or unable to help mankind. He is someone who is next to me all the time, suffering when I am suffering, rejoicing when I am rejoicing, and cracking dumb jokes a lot of the time. I talk to him and he talks back. He's my friend.

If I had to choose between the two, I would choose the second, but God is much, much more than that to me.

I don't totally agree, Ezra. I think all our experiences define us either for good or for bad.

When my husband beat me up, I could tell it was coming and was afraid that I would break from the pain. I've never been able to handle physical pain very well. But it had the opposite effect on me. When it actually happened, I found that it made me more determined to withstand his control.

On the other hand, I have read of women who were beaten into submission by their husbands and lived in fear of it. The same experience that empowered me weakened them.

I have to say that this subject is of interest to me. I recently had an experience that left me doubting the existence of God. It threw me into turmoil because the Lord is such an integral part of my life. After a couple of weeks of questioning every thing I felt came from God, I told him straight out, "You know I am having a hard time believing in you lately." He replied, "I know. It's okay." Then he opened up my mind to the understanding that if I did completely stop believing in God for a while, it would be okay, because I would relentlessly seek the truth and when I discovered it, I would be on firmer ground than I had been before. I would be able to see both sides.

Funny isn't it, that I would take my concerns about the existence of God to God? I just can't help myself.

I'm firmly planted in my belief in God again, but I am not quite so concerned about atheists anymore. My God sure is understanding and patient. If he isn't there, I suppose it wouldn't matter anyway. But if he is, then he'll be kind to them.

light-one wrote:Neither question is valid. Since neither can be true, one would have to deny the true God in order to answer one or the other.

Why do you not have enough respect for God to capitalize His title?

If one were not able to suffer, there would be no point whatsoever in coming to earth. In order to have choices, there has to be opposition.

It is normal to feel sad when we lose someone, but all of the possible destinations after death are better than here except for Hell.

Sometimes we have to put our big boy pants on and have some faith.

"capitalize His title?" my mistake sorry. I try to fix it.

jbalm wrote:

FSM wrote:Have you ever wandered why bad things happen to good people? Why people suffer in pain? Why was there a holocaust? Why do little babies and children die before their time? But the big question I ask my self is why doesn't god stop these things? I then have to ask myself what kind of god do I want to believe in? So hears a poll question for you.
The worst thing about asking questions like these are the fact that I only have tears for answers. And that's ok. I'm not alone. I have you out there, whoever you are. You've probably asked yourself the same thing. So please chime in.
If you had a choice between worship 2 gods. Which would you choose?

How about an omnipotent, loving, non-interfering God?

Having recently gone through this twice, I see your omnipotent, loving, non-interfering God as a parent with a child who is learning to ride a bike. There is no way for the child to experience the freedom and accomplishment of actually riding a bike if the parent constantly interferes with the child's bike riding experiences. Yes, the parent could leave on training wheels forever, but then the child learns bad habits that are really hard to break later. Or the parent could run along by the child holding the seat for his whole life, but that would significantly alter the child's bike riding opportunities. Or the child could never learn to ride a bike, and be significantly limited in his experiences as a result. The only way to get the skill is to DO. The only way for the child to learn is for the parent to be non-interfering, but not DISINTERESTED. Don't mistake non-interference with disinterest or antipathy.

Jezebel wrote:I don't think FSM said that there could only be those two types of gods, just which we would choose if there was.

For me, God is a friend. He isn't some distant powerful monarch sitting on his throne unwilling or unable to help mankind. He is someone who is next to me all the time, suffering when I am suffering, rejoicing when I am rejoicing, and cracking dumb jokes a lot of the time. I talk to him and he talks back. He's my friend.

If I had to choose between the two, I would choose the second, but God is much, much more than that to me.

Very good. I'm not suggesting only two types of god. You understood me perfectly. If god did hear your prayers he should have ended your suffering to send someone like me to confront your husband for beating you. When he was harming you, didn't faith alone seem like an alien concept only appreciated by those with less trials? You truely needed someone to show up and let slip the dogs of war on him. Let others feed their faith to the hungry and see how far they get with them. I really enjoyed your post. I have learned a lot from your post. Thank you.

jbalm wrote:

FSM wrote:Have you ever wandered why bad things happen to good people? Why people suffer in pain? Why was there a holocaust? Why do little babies and children die before their time? But the big question I ask my self is why doesn't god stop these things? I then have to ask myself what kind of god do I want to believe in? So hears a poll question for you.
The worst thing about asking questions like these are the fact that I only have tears for answers. And that's ok. I'm not alone. I have you out there, whoever you are. You've probably asked yourself the same thing. So please chime in.
If you had a choice between worship 2 gods. Which would you choose?

How about an omnipotent, loving, non-interfering God?

Eventually people could see him as neglectful in that case. Living is good. Non-interference is not. Because something's are not a matter of choice at all. Babies do not choose to starve to death, women do not choose to be beaten senseless by their spouses, the people in concentration camps do not choose to be there or dye. If God was all good but nor all powerful he would have more sympathizers and followers.

Obrien wrote:

jbalm wrote:

FSM wrote:Have you ever wandered why bad things happen to good people? Why people suffer in pain? Why was there a holocaust? Why do little babies and children die before their time? But the big question I ask my self is why doesn't god stop these things? I then have to ask myself what kind of god do I want to believie in? So hears a poll question for you.
The worst thing about asking questions like these are the fact that I only have tears for answers. And that's ok. I'm not alone. I have you out there, whoever you are. You've probably asked yourself the same thing. So please chime in.
If you had a choice between worship 2 gods. Which would you choose?

How about an omnipotent, loving, non-interfering God?

Having recently gone through this twice, I see your omnipotent, loving, non-interfering God as a parent with a child who is learning to ride a bike. There is no way for the child to experience the freedom and accomplishment of actually riding a bike if the parent constantly interferes with the child's bike riding experiences. Yes, the parent could leave on training wheels forever, but then the child learns bad habits that are really hard to break later. Or the parent could run along by the child holding the seat for his whole life, but that would significantly alter the child's bike riding opportunities. Or the child could never learn to ride a bike, and be significantly limited in his experiences as a result. The only way to get the skill is to DO. The only way for the child to learn is for the parent to be non-interfering, but not DISINTERESTED. Don't mistake non-interference with disinterest or antipathy.

Having a child fall down ever now and and then while learning to ride a bike is actually a good parking tool. But you don't let the child ride their bike into the path of a speeding car would you? Unless you are powerless to stop it. You can still be a good loving parent who is also not all powerful.

Muerte Rosa wrote:I agree with Obrien ... And think about someone you know who has enabling parents....how those people tend to turn out. My parents enable my sister...she's a spoiled turd. They didn't do that with me. They let me fall on my face, and pick myself back up and figure stuff out for myself. They didn't with my sister...she is 28 lives at home still with her 3 year old daughter,with a long criminal history ands lives like a teenager basically. He helps us when we ask for help, but ultimately He knows what is best what what is needed on order to bring each and every single one of us to our fullest potential.
God CAN do anything. But because He is also all knowing He knows when to and when not to do things. His ways are not our ways, someday all will be revealed to us.
God is good and He loves us all. He is merciful and just. But i am in no position to question Him and His ultimate plan for each of us. He tells us in the scriptures that someday after the resurrection that all will be made right.

Your sister sounds like my cousin. I wonder if we're related? You agree with Obrien? Now I'm wowed out. Just a fyi. Without my glasses to see correctly your avatar initially looked a poor child with her mouth duck taped.

Original_Intent wrote:The poll question is a false dichotomy.

Dichotomy? That is a good word to add to my lexicon. Thanks

FSM wrote:

Obrien wrote:

jbalm wrote: How about an omnipotent, loving, non-interfering God?

Having recently gone through this twice, I see your omnipotent, loving, non-interfering God as a parent with a child who is learning to ride a bike. There is no way for the child to experience the freedom and accomplishment of actually riding a bike if the parent constantly interferes with the child's bike riding experiences. Yes, the parent could leave on training wheels forever, but then the child learns bad habits that are really hard to break later. Or the parent could run along by the child holding the seat for his whole life, but that would significantly alter the child's bike riding opportunities. Or the child could never learn to ride a bike, and be significantly limited in his experiences as a result. The only way to get the skill is to DO. The only way for the child to learn is for the parent to be non-interfering, but not DISINTERESTED. Don't mistake non-interference with disinterest or antipathy.

Having a child fall down ever now and and then while learning to ride a bike is actually a good parking tool. Agreed But you don't let the child ride their bike into the path of a speeding car would you? No Unless you are powerless to stop it. There are conditions in which I would be powerless to stop it. I am qualitatively different from God in my omniscience. You can still be a good loving parent who is also not all powerful. Being a human does not come with the benefit of being all powerful. I don't know if God is all powerful - but His abilities are soooo far ahead of my own that there is no practical difference from my point of view. I lean toward Him being all powerful, however, because it "feels" right to me.

I have warned my children about proper bike riding procedures, I warn them about traffic, I warn them to expect the unexpected. When they are little, we play follow the leader, and I'm the leader. As they get more capable, I let them lead, for several reasons. 1 - It's easier to see how they "think" while riding when you're behind them. 2 - being the leader let's them feel a sense of control of their destiny. 3 - it's easy to direct them in their "leading" if necessary.

I do not suffer the delusion that bike riding is a risk free activity. But I think the pleasure it provides my 7 year old is well worth the risk.

I don't think God sees our mortal existence (with the pain, evil, hurt, tears etc.) as a risk free activity either. His perspective sees our existence as a complete painting - all the pain you experience in this life is just a couple of brushstrokes in the painting to Him. But the painful experiences may be a significant number of the brushstrokes you can remember, so they seem disproportionally concentrated to you.

FSM wrote:

Jezebel wrote:I don't think FSM said that there could only be those two types of gods, just which we would choose if there was.

For me, God is a friend. He isn't some distant powerful monarch sitting on his throne unwilling or unable to help mankind. He is someone who is next to me all the time, suffering when I am suffering, rejoicing when I am rejoicing, and cracking dumb jokes a lot of the time. I talk to him and he talks back. He's my friend.

If I had to choose between the two, I would choose the second, but God is much, much more than that to me.

Very good. I'm not suggesting only two types of god. You understood me perfectly. If god did hear your prayers he should have ended your suffering to send someone like me to confront your husband for beating you. When he was harming you, didn't faith alone seem like an alien concept only appreciated by those with less trials? You truely needed someone to show up and let slip the dogs of war on him. Let others feed their faith to the hungry and see how far they get with them. I really enjoyed your post. I have learned a lot from your post. Thank you.

Honestly, if I could go back myself and stop my husband from beating me up, I wouldn't do it. I look back on that experience as a valuable one. Like I said, when it was over, I was stronger for it.

I figure someday he's going to wake up to the truth of what he really did. So far, he's denied it ever happened, lied about what happened to my face and to others, justified his actions by blaming them on me, and so forth. My belief in God causes me to believe that one day he will have to face the truth. I don't expect that to be easy for him but when it is done, I expect him to acknowledge me for what I really am, which is really all I want in return for what he did.

It is my belief in God that enables me to have hope in this future expectation. Without it, I would imagine that he would go to his grave with his humiliating beliefs about what an awful person I am and that would be the end of it. For me, that would be much harder to take.

Given the selection, I prefer the second one. I understand where you're coming from. You're young and the world you live in is a harsh one. Much harsher than the one I grew up in. As you study and ponder the gospel, you will come to realize truths and the light inside you will continue to grow. I'm glad you're still hanging out with us.

Jezebel wrote:I don't totally agree, Ezra. I think all our experiences define us either for good or for bad.

When my husband beat me up, I could tell it was coming and was afraid that I would break from the pain. I've never been able to handle physical pain very well. But it had the opposite effect on me. When it actually happened, I found that it made me more determined to withstand his control.

On the other hand, I have read of women who were beaten into submission by their husbands and lived in fear of it. The same experience that empowered me weakened them.

I have to say that this subject is of interest to me. I recently had an experience that left me doubting the existence of God. It threw me into turmoil because the Lord is such an integral part of my life. After a couple of weeks of questioning every thing I felt came from God, I told him straight out, "You know I am having a hard time believing in you lately." He replied, "I know. It's okay." Then he opened up my mind to the understanding that if I did completely stop believing in God for a while, it would be okay, because I would relentlessly seek the truth and when I discovered it, I would be on firmer ground than I had been before. I would be able to see both sides.

Funny isn't it, that I would take my concerns about the existence of God to God? I just can't help myself.

I'm firmly planted in my belief in God again, but I am not quite so concerned about atheists anymore. My God sure is understanding and patient. If he isn't there, I suppose it wouldn't matter anyway. But if he is, then he'll be kind to them.

I don't see where you and I differ on this???

coachmarc wrote:Given the selection, I prefer the second one. I understand where you're coming from. You're young and the world you live in is a harsh one. Much harsher than the one I grew up in. As you study and ponder the gospel, you will come to realize truths and the light inside you will continue to grow. I'm glad you're still hanging out with us.

Hay Bro
I was wondering when you were going to chime in. Good to hear from you.

Ezra wrote:

Jezebel wrote:I don't totally agree, Ezra. I think all our experiences define us either for good or for bad.

When my husband beat me up, I could tell it was coming and was afraid that I would break from the pain. I've never been able to handle physical pain very well. But it had the opposite effect on me. When it actually happened, I found that it made me more determined to withstand his control.

On the other hand, I have read of women who were beaten into submission by their husbands and lived in fear of it. The same experience that empowered me weakened them.

I have to say that this subject is of interest to me. I recently had an experience that left me doubting the existence of God. It threw me into turmoil because the Lord is such an integral part of my life. After a couple of weeks of questioning every thing I felt came from God, I told him straight out, "You know I am having a hard time believing in you lately." He replied, "I know. It's okay." Then he opened up my mind to the understanding that if I did completely stop believing in God for a while, it would be okay, because I would relentlessly seek the truth and when I discovered it, I would be on firmer ground than I had been before. I would be able to see both sides.

Funny isn't it, that I would take my concerns about the existence of God to God? I just can't help myself.

I'm firmly planted in my belief in God again, but I am not quite so concerned about atheists anymore. My God sure is understanding and patient. If he isn't there, I suppose it wouldn't matter anyway. But if he is, then he'll be kind to them.

I don't see where you and I differ on this???

I do.

I like your thoughtfulness FSM. I've spent some time as an agnostic and I get where this kind of question stems from. I answered the second option. I think God has some "limits," and allows the troubles of mortality to happen. I also believe in multiple mortal probations, so in my mind, it kind of evens out.

TannerG wrote:I like your thoughtfulness FSM. I've spent some time as an agnostic and I get where this kind of question stems from. I answered the second option. I think God has some "limits," and allows the troubles of mortality to happen. I also believe in multiple mortal probations, so in my mind, it kind of evens out.

Thank you. I would find easier to believe in a god that is all good bit has limits to his power. We as humans can relate better to a god that can't always help us but wishes he could rather than the one who can and doesn't. What a ride....

These are not everyday learning experiences that really help us I'm talking about. I'm talking about the prevention of Auswitch, the Holocaust. Never mind, now I'm making myself depressed. I really appreciate everyone's input on this it has truly helped. If there is a god looking down on me maybe he'll have mercy on me and be a little happy that I think about him so much.