LDS Freedom Forum

So why do we deceive ourselves?

It might seem like this belongs in the health section, but it's not really about health that I want to talk about, it's the principles behind being thick-headed.

I have talked/ worked with many LDS (including many relatives) who are willing to pay big bucks, cry big tears, go through lots of pain and suffering, rely on MD's, and finally say, "It's the Lord's plan (that I got cancer, that I suffer, that I die, etc.)."

At the same time, I have offered many other solutions--many backed up by science and stories--but it's the same: no.
Most of these solutions are very inexpensive, very easy, safe.

When people are in deep pain, lose almost all hope, get very desperate, and have nothing else to try, a small percentage will be willing to try "something new". The others will say it's God's will, even though they ignore the very possible solution(s) in front of them.

What is it that makes us disbelieve/ ignore solutions that are right in front of us? Is it that we don't always communicate well, or people don't really want the answers, or...? And we choose NOT, not just one time, but often over and over...

I think part of it is the "status quo pat". We can never be blamed if we follow the status quo, right? We'll get the pat on the back from those we want it from, even though the situation ended badly. We "did our best".

Similarly, I have seen mission president after mission president do the same thing over and over, expecting different (that is, better) results. I guess it's hard to get in trouble for doing what others before you did and got patted on the back for. It's sad to see so many go home disappointed, but really, what were they expecting??

It's like CEO's who try to keep improving the same product rather than do something newer and better. Trying to make better apples, than coming up with something new, like oranges.

I am not blaming here, though I really used to do that. At this point, I believe it's not really a conscious choice most people can make, to do something differently, to strive for actual improvement through the unknown.

Is the unknown really that scary, or what? What are our experiences now, looking back? (Which is the best way we can understand, I think. Like Amulek talking about being called but ignoring it type of thing.)

Big Pharma has a huge secret combination in place. Like wearing a seat belt that will surely kill you in a driver side broadside, the law is clear that it is better for some people to die or be killed needlessly in order to maintain compliance from the herd. In some cases, it may be illegal to seek a cheap and natural cure to cancer as opposed to the painful and destructive chemo therapy. A Google search reveals many "cures" for cancer that do not require a doctor.

Children are indoctrinated that only a "doctor" knows the correct answer. Typically, a pharmacy will refuse to refill an out of state prescription or an out of date prescription unless the patient sees a "doctor" that has had a total of zero minutes training or experience on the disease at hand. An example would be a transplant patient where the doctor has never even seen a single patient with this issue in his/her entire life, but the pharmacy will uphold the doctor's need to receive cash for something he knows absolutely nothing about. A $100 visit to the witch doctor will result in a nurse taking vitals like blood pressure, weight, and height, and the doctor asking a question like "What can I get paid for today"

The doctor takes the hypocrites oath and the pharmacist declares his allegiance to Satan, and the public school propagates the lies, and the police arrest anyone that complains.

Which is why God inspired the writers of the Constitution to make sure that the United States NEVER became a democracy. Unfortunately, our only hope now is for Jesus to come back and smoke 'em.

I pretty much agree. I've seen this in all areas of life, though--not just limited to health care.

In addition, why are we blind to things right in front of our eyes? I've looked for things others could clearly see, for example. Only after they were pointed out did I notice them! Why are we blind, deaf, etc., not just spiritually sometimes, but in other ways, too?

Well, Johnny L., As you can see, I could probably talk about this subject of yours for three days straight.
Do you relate with anything I said here?

-delete-

All I can say is I was blind and NOW I SEE" is not going to reach anymore people today than it did in the days of Jesus Christ.

Ha ha, so true. But hey, that story is purely anecdotal!! :p

I'd love to have some more threads like the ones that you suggested wouldn't be wanted. I feel that unless we are pushing ourselves, being in the forum like this is boring. Freedom--from illusion, from false beliefs, ideas, constraints, traditions, etc.

I can tell you, once you get the rug pulled right out from under you, it doesn't hurt anywhere near that much the next time. After a while, you actually enjoy it. :o)

Hi Johnny,
A lot of good points have already been made - especially the implication of blame as an attempt to shift response-ability.

Why do we deceive ourselves?
We can't help it to an extent - all is subjectively interpreted with major blinders on.
We see so little of the tip of the iceberg but we want to believe we have more understanding sense of control. So, sometimes if someone poses a challenge to our current paradigmes, instead of considering it, we might feel threatened and cling for dear life to the "old wine bottles." (Them Mormons and their old wine bottles. )

As you mentioned, if you get passed that for a moment, you can get to actually welcoming "uncomfortable truths" because you realize that the freedom you get is worth the uncomfort of admitting you previously were blind to some truth.

Is God truly your god, or is comfort, familiarity - the "old wine bottles"?
Not easy, I admit, especially when you feel on your own and are really going on faith because the path is not so clearly trodden.
And it takes more work & of course opposition to meet, but when you establish good routines - exercise, study, spiritual nourishment and seeking God's will/Truth above all - it seems that it's as if you're in a flow of support.

Thinker wrote:Hi Johnny,
A lot of good points have already been made - especially the implication of blame as an attempt to shift response-ability.

Why do we deceive ourselves?
We can't help it to an extent - all is subjectively interpreted with major blinders on.
We see so little of the tip of the iceberg but we want to believe we have more understanding sense of control. So, sometimes if someone poses a challenge to our current paradigmes, instead of considering it, we might feel threatened and cling for dear life to the "old wine bottles." (Them Mormons and their old wine bottles. )

As you mentioned, if you get passed that for a moment, you can get to actually welcoming "uncomfortable truths" because you realize that the freedom you get is worth the uncomfort of admitting you previously were blind to some truth.

Is God truly your god, or is comfort, familiarity - the "old wine bottles"?
Not easy, I admit, especially when you feel on your own and are really going on faith because the path is not so clearly trodden.
And it takes more work & of course opposition to meet, but when you establish good routines - exercise, study, spiritual nourishment and seeking God's will/Truth above all - it seems that it's as if you're in a flow of support.

"sense of control", "feel threatened and cling for dear life"--I think those are major points right there, at minimum when it comes to conspiracy, etc.

And what about the idea of the Shadow, from Jung?

"'A man who is unconscious of himself acts in a blind, instinctive way and is in addition fooled by all the illusions that arise when he sees everything that he is not conscious of in himself coming to meet him from outside as projections upon his neighbour.

“The Philosophical Tree” (1945). In CW 13: Alchemical Studies. P.335 '


''Unfortunately there can be no doubt that man is, on the whole, less good than he imagines himself or wants to be. Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is. If an inferiority is conscious, one always has a chance to correct it. Furthermore, it is constantly in contact with other interests, so that it is continually subjected to modifications. But if it is repressed and isolated from consciousness, it never gets corrected.'

“Psychology and Religion” (1938). In CW 11: Psychology and Religion: West and East. P.131 "


It's the hidden hypocrite in all of us. Open hypocrisy is when you are aware of it, and you do it anyway. Hidden hypocrisy is when you have no clue that you're doing the exact thing that you are preaching against. Others might see it, but not you. And if someone tells you, watch out! Hint: It's usually the thing(s) you most detest about the person you most detest.

Example: We had a teacher meeting. Two teachers were adamant that giving children any type of reward was childish and a bad thing for teachers to do. "Why reward them for doing what they're supposed to do anyway?"
Two minutes earlier they had, along with the rest of us, gladly accepted a bonus check from the principal, with huge smiles.
When I politely confronted one teacher on it after the meeting, he was not happy, and wouldn't admit it that it was the same thing. :-\

Johnny,
I'm fascinated by many concepts of Carl Jung & appreciate how he saw no dividing line between psychology and spirituality.

You explained the shadow well. As implied, it's revealed through our inconsistencies (hypocricies) and also pet peves or exagerated emotional responses. To pretend we have no shadow/subconscious is to deny a major motivating source of us and thereby blindly allow havoc. Yet to explore it can be uncomfortable - humbling to realize we have some degree of weaknesses that we may condemn in others. It's seeing paradox, which before seemed more simple but less true.

At one point in my life 12 years ago I was getting close to dieing of strep throat. The strongest meds they had would barley make it go away. And I would get it every 3-4 months . I read a book called mutant message from down under. By Marlo Morgan. It's a true story about her exsperiance of going on a walkabout with a native tribe of aborigonals at the age of 50 she was kinda forces into doing this. She learned some very powerful amasing truths by the natives. One was that we have power to heal ourselfs much quicker if we put our mind to the task. She witnessed this happen when a aboriginal man broke his leg compound fracture. He sat and meditated for 2 days and others in the tribe meditated on him as well. The man stood up and walked away without and limp after 2 days.

So this is what I did. I focused on my problem. Fixed it. It went away. Since that time Ive only gotten sick a few times when I have gotten busy or stressed and didn't notice the sickness comming on.
One of those when I noticed what was happening I meditated to throw up and get a temp of 104 to burn the rest out. 15 minuts later I threw up. 15 minuts after that I had a 104 temp. 1 hour after that temp broke and I felt absolutely fine and went about my day.

We are very powerfull beings. We can do so much. But humanity won't belive this. Most lds don't belive this.

One of the problems is that no one takes time to know themselfs. Examine there thinking. Take time to control there thinking. They fill there life's full of distractions and entertainment to where they have no time to think and figure out what and who they are.

Black elk said

It is in the darkness of men's own eyes that they become lost.

In other words. We purposely wear really dark sunglasses that also distorts our vision.

You ask why we device ourselfs??

The answer is. To us we don't. That's is just how we veiw our life and the world. And we will continue doing this tell it hurts so bad running into things that we take off those stupid sunglasses.

I think it's about our comfort zone. If you've invested a lot in a particular theory, or school of thought, it's uncomfortable to find evidence that it may not deserve your loyalty. We resolve that discomfort by discounting the evidence -- which is probably the most common form of self-deception: refusal to honestly assess evidence.

KMCopeland wrote:I think it's about our comfort zone. If you've invested a lot in a particular theory, or school of thought, it's uncomfortable to find evidence that it may not deserve your loyalty. We resolve that discomfort by discounting the evidence -- which is probably the most common form of self-deception: refusal to honestly assess evidence.

Can I quote you the next time you defend Obama? ;) ;)

Fiannan wrote:

KMCopeland wrote:I think it's about our comfort zone. If you've invested a lot in a particular theory, or school of thought, it's uncomfortable to find evidence that it may not deserve your loyalty. We resolve that discomfort by discounting the evidence -- which is probably the most common form of self-deception: refusal to honestly assess evidence.

Can I quote you the next time you defend Obama? ;) ;)

You betcha.

I submit that people who ignore solutions that are "right in front of them" do not perceive them as solutions. Their mindsets are such that they cannot accept answers provided by anyone but themselves.

Just a thought.

JohnnyL wrote:And what about the idea of the Shadow, from Jung?

"'A man who is unconscious of himself acts in a blind, instinctive way and is in addition fooled by all the illusions that arise when he sees everything that he is not conscious of in himself coming to meet him from outside as projections upon his neighbour.

“The Philosophical Tree” (1945). In CW 13: Alchemical Studies. P.335 '

''Unfortunately there can be no doubt that man is, on the whole, less good than he imagines himself or wants to be. Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual’s conscious life, the blacker and denser it is. If an inferiority is conscious, one always has a chance to correct it. Furthermore, it is constantly in contact with other interests, so that it is continually subjected to modifications. But if it is repressed and isolated from consciousness, it never gets corrected.'

“Psychology and Religion” (1938). In CW 11: Psychology and Religion: West and East. P.131 "

It's the hidden hypocrite in all of us. Open hypocrisy is when you are aware of it, and you do it anyway. Hidden hypocrisy is when you have no clue that you're doing the exact thing that you are preaching against. Others might see it, but not you. And if someone tells you, watch out! Hint: It's usually the thing(s) you most detest about the person you most detest.

Good stuff.

Ezra wrote:So this is what I did. I focused on my problem. Fixed it. It went away. Since that time Ive only gotten sick a few times when I have gotten busy or stressed and didn't notice the sickness comming on.
One of those when I noticed what was happening I meditated to throw up and get a temp of 104 to burn the rest out. 15 minuts later I threw up. 15 minuts after that I had a 104 temp. 1 hour after that temp broke and I felt absolutely fine and went about my day.

Great stories. Any secrets to share about "focusing and fixing" to share? It doesn't seem to work for me...

Sweetwater14 wrote:I submit that people who ignore solutions that are "right in front of them" do not perceive them as solutions. Their mindsets are such that they cannot accept answers provided by anyone but themselves.

Just a thought.

I've told people things that were very important. Later, when telling everyone how they found out, they would give some other source that happened after I had told them. I used to get really mad at those ingrates. When someone tells me something like that, I usually remember it, so I assumed others were the same. Maybe; maybe not.

Then I figured out, they probably really didn't remember! How could that be??

I imagine since they didn't believe me when I told them, they didn't remember it much.
Or, since someone else that they trusted and liked told them, that overwrote memory of previous things.

I've had memory processing problems myself with a few situations.

How can you remember what you couldn't see because you were blind?

It's similar to what Amulek experienced.
Alma 10:5 Nevertheless, after all this, I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power. I said I never had known much of these things; but behold, I mistake, for I have seen much of his mysteries and his marvelous power; yea, even in the preservation of the lives of this people.
6 Nevertheless, I did harden my heart, for I was called many times and I would not hear; therefore I knew concerning these things, yet I would not know; therefore I went on rebelling against God, in the wickedness of my heart, even until the fourth day of this seventh month, which is in the tenth year of the reign of the judges.

JohnnyL wrote:

Ezra wrote:So this is what I did. I focused on my problem. Fixed it. It went away. Since that time Ive only gotten sick a few times when I have gotten busy or stressed and didn't notice the sickness comming on.
One of those when I noticed what was happening I meditated to throw up and get a temp of 104 to burn the rest out. 15 minuts later I threw up. 15 minuts after that I had a 104 temp. 1 hour after that temp broke and I felt absolutely fine and went about my day.

Great stories. Any secrets to share about "focusing and fixing" to share? It doesn't seem to work for me...

It's all faith based. Let me share another story from the same book I mentioned. Marlo said the aborigonals would pray to know where water and food was. They practiced letting the spiritual guidance guide them to water and food. Each person in the tribe took turns doing this.

This made sence to me. Joseph smith story. If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God. God gives to all men and dosent with hold as long as the person asking has faith to recive the answer.

I was working at a wilderness youth program in ut. Where they dropped the water in 5 gallon. Jugs every day or for a few days in a row. They would then give us the gps locations of the water drops.

I started practicing by getting the gps quardenens but not looking at the gps. I would ask and allow the spirit to guide me. Knowing that I would recive an answer. ( this is the hard part you can have no doubts.) the very first time I tryed I could do this. It was scary and it was hard to fight off doubt and worry. But I know that if joseph smith could do this so could anyone. It's just require faith.

As I procticed this day after day I got to where I could feel the direction like somone had a finger on my forhead in the direction. I could close my eyes and see the spot and trees the water was under from where ever I was.

This moved on to where people could ask me where someone was that they knew and I could tell them. To where I knew things about them that I needed to know to help them. To where I could sit and ask how things worked. A gyro, electrical magnet what ever I wanted and allow the info to flow into my head.

I came to the understanding that our thinking puts a stopper to our ability and talents.

I grew up thinking I didn't have any musical talents. I decided to change my thinking. And told myself that I did.(again faith without doubt.) I went home picked up and banjo and within a short time could play it.

That's the key your looking for. In order to heal ones self using our God given powers there has to be faith without doubts.

You have to learn to control your thinking. As funny and crazy as it seems cloud bursting is good practice for this. I already knew how to control my thinking and faith to do this befor someone introduced me to cloud bursting.

I'm sure that makes me sounds crazy. And I thought clouds bursting was crazy just a few years befor I built the understanding I had built with faith and walking to water.

But as I watched this man make Clouds go backwards in the sky and go away completly it made sence that with faith you can move mountains. You can move clouds or make them go away. So I tryed and was able to do that as well. Only because again I took all doubt out of my mind.

A good read to help with these concepts is as a man thinkith by Gary Allen. Or James Allen. I always get them mixed up??

It's a short deep book. And he talks about how and why we need to understand and control our thinking. He likens us to impure gold. We are put on the fire become molten the impuritys raise to the top and when the dross is swept off the top the need for purifacation goes away.

I know this to be very true. Very true.

I hope this helps. Feel free to ask me any questions.

Another thought to give some more insite is you have to direct your thoughts into energy. Imagin the movement of it. Visualize it's energy and the energys intent. Veiw your insides. Your blood vessels. All the inner working of your body and direct it to do what you want it too. See all of this in your mind.

Build the changes in your body.

Thought is the building blocks of action. Your body loves the attention of your focus. To understand this do a little exsperiment. Focus on your chest the air you breath your heart beat dosent matter which or what as long as your focus is on the inside of you. And within a short time you will feel (goodness.) comming from that focal spot.

When you focus on the inside. Your focusing on your spirit. And if you keep a part of your mind always on your spirit at least a part of that focus you are much more tied to spiritual promptings.

Ezra,

Thanks for adding more!

I think part of my self-sabotage is I want to learn, and through trials and tribulations, I learn.

I forget it could come in other, better ways. And that I perhaps do not need to learn many things (like memorize the maps of entire cities, etc.).

Do people believe that they don't deceive themselves? Have you gotten to the point where you are much more honest with yourself? How?

I think most people don't realize they are even thinking incorrectly. As soon as a person comes to the realization And the light is turn onto their incorrect thinking they start the process of fixing it.

Some times the moment it's realized they change coarse.

Think of forgiveness as those who have had a change of heart and sin no more. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a diffrent result. This insane thinking of most people keeps them sinning. If you haven't changed the thought process you will continue being tempted to sin in that way. And you will mess up.

Sin is missing the mark of the Bulls eye on a target. Our thinking may make us aim in the wrong direction of the target completly or our thinking might have is only missing the Bulls eye by a small amount. One or 2 rings. But either way what is happening is our knowledge or our thinking is still incomplete. Yet we think it is.

Pride is a disease that makes it to where the worse someone has it the more they don't even realize it.

Pride is what keeps us from thinking correctly because we think we already know.

Satan tricks us into thinking that cuz we hit the target we know all that we need to. And so he keeps us ignorant to the entire truth.

Humility is the key to knowledge. You can't think you "know " something and yet still have the drive or reason to continue looking for more knowledge in that area. Cuz you already know it.

In zen teachings they call it the full cup. No more knowleadge will go into a full cup. You must first empty the cup befor you can allow more to enter.

So you ask how to be more honest with ourselfs.

It's a fine line. You must know that as God promised if you lack knowledge all you need to do is ask and recive it with faith without doubt.

And second you must remove the labels of judgement that we place on ourselfs and therefor others because of the judgments placed on ourselfs. We only judge other because we first judge ourselfs.

These judgements of self is the disease of pride. All (I )
statements are pride filled statments.

IE
I'm smart, I'm a hard worker, I'm funny ,I'm respectfull of others I'm so on and so on.

These are all judgments that may have some truth to them but they are not (the truth). They fill our eyes with pride and cause us to judge others and cause us to look no further into gaining more knowledge in those areas that we view ourselfs as already being.

So again humility is the key.

You don't need to see yourself as being smart to be it. You don't need to see yourself as being respectfull to be it. You cannot see yourself as humble and still be it.

Those veiws of self stop you from accually being those things.

What me personally I do is look for the people who get under my skin. Point my finger at them and lable them. So that I can then know that I view myslef as the opposite. Then I look at that view of myself. I find every time that that veiw of myself is never completly true. And so I discard it.

When you do this those people no longer bug you. And all of a sudden you get along with them great.

You also open the door to simply truly seeing yourself as you are.

It's the darkness of men's own eyes that they become lost.

You find out how true this is every time you do this.

You just need to remind yourself to instead of getting upset at the people who bug you to look at yourself.

Soon no one bugs you or it's very rare. Because you see yourself and them correctly.

This has been an ongoing process for 12 years now for me. And life has become wonderful for me because of it.

Ezra,

Lots of reference/ similarity to the Shadow.

What you hate in others, is what you hate in yourself. And as you said...
What you can learn to accept in others, you can accept in yourself.

I was thinking a little about that this morning. I guess another thing to add to all this discussion is...

taking time to think, meditate, ponder, act/ repent/ forgive.

In the same light, are those who are unable to forgive others, able to forgive themselves? It seems not.

JohnnyL wrote:Do people believe that they don't deceive themselves? Have you gotten to the point where you are much more honest with yourself? How?