LDS Freedom Forum

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/01 ... lds-dress/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With all the troubles facing American education today we have to make sure that young women are frowned upon unless they wear a hijab? Did I miss the memo about Islam taking over the USA? No wait, I have been to Turkey and the women in Istanbul would find the girl from Utah's dress very conservative.

Muerte Rosa wrote:Old news get over it.

Really? January 28, 2015 is the date.

Muerte Rosa wrote:The original story was from the previous school year.

Maybe you are thinking of another instance where some hyper-prudish school district photo-shopped shoulders and tattoos off students in a year book.

This is the original story from this week:

http://www.kutv.com/news/features/local ... Mo35i43k81" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seriously, do people in Utah think shoulders are pornographic? I have never encountered anyone with a shoulder fetish. However, there are a lot of men, and a few women, with foot fetishes so maybe we should not allow women to expose their feet. I suppose we could shop at the military surplus store and get some army boots for our daughters and wives.

And here is the perfect outfit for young women who have an interest in music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpH83Vi7b9E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fiannan wrote:

Muerte Rosa wrote:

Seriously, do people in Utah think shoulders are pornographic? I have never encountered anyone with a shoulder fetish.

They're not pornographic but they are really sexy. Maybe I have a "shoulder fetish".

Muerte Rosa wrote:No that's different. I heard birth stories.

You mean, after the shoulders are uncovered, we get BIRTH stories?

(Sorry Rosa, couldn't resist. )

Hey Muerte Rosa,
I just noticed your avatar is showing a bit of shoulder =p~

My how times have changed in LDS culture. These women are BYU students in 1930.

BYU homecoming queen in 1964:

Fiannan, we were acting under limited understanding back then. Now we know better. Girls' shoulders need to be covered from babyhood on, lest we lead others astray.

Fiannan, thanks for the discussion. Classic Micro-managing. With the material you've provided, here's my contribution.

http://www.pahvantpost.com/classic-micr ... he-corner/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The dance had a modesty code.
Attending the dance is agreeing to it.
I don't see anything wrong with that.
If she didn't want to go by their rules, why go?

I think there might be less problems (of teen pregnancy, abortion etc) if more schools were old school like this one.
(Lol and this is coming from someone who was refused entrance to a dance because my skirt was too high. I guess things change when you're coming from an adult perspective.)

Thinker wrote:The dance had a modesty code.
Attending the dance is agreeing to it.
I don't see anything wrong with that.
If she didn't want to go by their rules, why go?

I think there might be less problems (of teen pregnancy, abortion etc) if more schools were old school like this one.
(Lol and this is coming from someone who was refused entrance to a dance because my skirt was too high. I guess things change when you're coming from an adult perspective.)

Oh...hold on there! The dance had a "modesty code?" I might expect that in regards to an LDS Church dance but this is state school function and yet we see a sort of osmosis effect in regards to what passes as "modest?" What if you moved to Deerhorn Michigan and your kids had to go to a public school that was predominantly Muslim and the administrators demanded your daughters had to wear a hijab to all school functions? You might say that is different, but why?

As for following rules isn't this what the TSA says? You know, if you agree to having your reproductive organs gone over that is what you must do in order to fly an airplane. I believe this is just encouraging our youth to have to be micro-managed to such a degree that they will find it easier to comply with whatever the state tells them.

As for morality and abortion, I know you deal a lot with the gay issue. In my experience I have noticed that gay women tend to cover up way more than straight. Just saying. Also, my wife likes to watch those classic movies on TCM. Women in the 1940s and 1950s tended to wear backless dresses or dresses that exposed the shoulders in the movies when they were featured at social functions. In fact the reason women shave their underarms is because of the styles of the 1920s and 1930s exposed the arms, thus encouraging the removal of hair. What was the marriage norm then? How many women wound up pregnant out of wedlock? A lot, lot fewer than today.

My concern for school dances, and Church dances, would be the music that plays. A while back a thread was started that dealt with some LDS missionary gals changing the lyrics of a pop song to be a way to encourage reading the Book of Mormon. Obviously these gals knew the lyrics of the original song and the message. The other day I was shopping with my daughter and that song played (uncensored) over the store's speakers. Wow, so that is what passes for acceptable?

One last thing, I once read a study that said that children raised in which their parents had memberships in nudist resorts kept their virginity longer than others in their age cohort who were not raised in such an environment. Something to think about.

Lizzy60 wrote:Fiannan, we were acting under limited understanding back then. Now we know better. Girls' shoulders need to be covered from babyhood on, lest we lead others astray.

Here is something to consider:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-x5LeHPmLVRY/U ... /hijab.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The blue one would be useful if one lived in an area with lots of mosquitoes.

One more thing. I showed a graph to my wife that illustrates how many articles about "modesty" appeared in LDS publications from 1971 to the present day. There were hardly any until 2000 AD, then a skyrocketing took place.

My wife offered an interesting note. She said that with all the immorality in the world that people become desperate to have something they can attack or actually put their finger on...something tangible. So since porn is something people look at in private, and most sexual sins are in private, then women wearing clothing that may, in the past, been perfectly acceptable in LDS culture becomes the symbol for all that seems out-of-control in regards to the world and its influences.

In other words, since you can see a young woman exposing her shoulders and underarms then she, though it is subconscious and irrational on the part of both leaders and the general LDS populace, becomes the symbol for all the depravity that is taking place in the world. Conversely, if a young woman covers up and wears frumpy clothes she becomes a valiant warrior against immorality.

With your line of reasoning, employers have no right to enforce dress codes.

Would you have girls going to school dances in lingerie type formals as many do?

Don't you see? Schools, employers - they must have rules including dress codes.

My guess is that porn is appealing because of a lack of modesty.
And porn addiction is known to contribute to problems societally, in relating with others and personally.
Modesty is a good thing, not a bad thing, Fiannan.

Yes, modesty is a good thing, so let's try to legislate morality, and use force to enforce it.

With your line of reasoning, employers have no right to enforce dress codes.

That depends of course. I doubt you would defend a company that decided that all its employees had to go topless.
And one other aspect of all this, nobody is forced to take a particular job. If you are a 15 year old your parents must send you to school (or have in place a home-school agreement) or else you will be SWAT-teamed by the local US storm troopers and hauled off to jail.

Would you have girls going to school dances in lingerie type formals as many do?

I have been to nightclubs in Moscow, Caracas, St. Petersburg, Beijing and Stockholm and I have never seen such a thing. Is it more common in Utah?

Don't you see? Schools, employers - they must have rules including dress codes.

Based on logical community standards. The dress the young woman was wearing looks really reasonable to me.

My guess is that porn is appealing because of a lack of modesty.

And the more restrictive a culture gets the more porn it secretly desires. Pakistan has severe punishments for homosexuality but it has one of the highest online searches for homosexual porn. What part of the US has the most searches for interracial porn? The deep south. And since the most popular search item for women when they look at porn is lesbian I would bet a disproportionate share of those women are conservative Christian women.

And porn addiction is known to contribute to problems societally, in relating with others and personally.
Modesty is a good thing, not a bad thing, Fiannan.

And yet are a woman's shoulders being exposed a form of pornography?

I came from a very progressive high school and remember on occasion classmates coming to school in lingerie. We had no dress code that I was ever aware of, it was not a good thing. Dress codes can be essential

I also agree that treating symptoms (like immodesty) is like straining at gnats. True "modesty" IMO is understanding who you are and ACTING in a way that reflects that (this includes what music you listen to, how you treat others, and how you dress etc.)

Are we not teaching our children who they are and helping them understand their relationship to God? When a society decides to embrace immorality (and we have), in public or in private, you see this kind of confusion happening. We teach them one thing and them entertain them with another. It is the double standards that are confusing our children, and us.

On another note, I believe a huge reason God cannot dwell amoung us is that we are missing the power that comes from virtue. I have seen too many, who profess to know better, embracing crude language, humor, and entertainment.

We see it as cramping our style, when in reality true virtue (very different from top down enforcement of modesty per say) is power.

When Christ healed the woman with the issue of blood he perceived virtue when out of him. Luke, a physician, notes another occasion when the multitude brought their sick to Jesus and virtue went out of him healing them all. So there is a very real principle of power linked to virtue. This is what we need to focus on with our children, the power that comes from being virtuous.

I believe we are largely missing this power because of the carnality of our society. To be carnally minded is death...the flesh profiteth nothing...those are Christ's words.

To be spiritually minded is life eternal.