LDS Freedom Forum

All,


I worked in Latin America during the early 80's including in Peru. I have spent some time working in Lima. Peru, which like many Latin American countries was dominated by a few very rich land barons and millions of poor farmers (campesinos). We don't know how lucky we were to be colonized by English colonists searching for homes and freedom rather than by Mercenaries looking for Gold. In much of Latin America ,"Land Reform" is a hot political topic for which wars and revolutions have been fought (Mexico for instance).

While I was working in Peru, a Socialist Junta government, took over and made good on their promise for land reform. They took land away from the rich land barons and gave it to the campesinos living on the land. If I were to say that this approaches Mr. Sinclair's vision of implementing the Law of consecration "with and deed and covenant...." etc, you might point out that this is different. In Mr. Sinclair's Utopia, the giving of the land would be "Voluntary". You would be right. But the forced taking of Land from the rich and giving it to the poor was only the beginning of the nightmare that the Peruvians were about to live.

The other problem was not only that this land taken forcibly, but it was given to those who had no idea how to care for their stewardship and their lives were soon to get much more miserable than they were as serf farmers. Also, this impoverished country started down a path similar to the wonderful path of Venezuela today (lets give a cheer for all of the noisy Chavistas on this board that were ranting that maybe Chavez was flawed, but better than us) .

Before, I go into the real horror, I would like to note that while I was working there, Peru, which was formerly a major exported of sugar was desperately trying to get a loan from either the IMF or the world bank so that ships that were waiting outside the port of Lima could come in and deliver sugar to Peru, who needed it to sweeten their coffee and cereal.

However, I remember walking through Lima with some co-workers one day when I came upon a huge park. I, who had been working in many Latin American cities and was pretty hardened to extreme poverty, was horrified at what I saw. There were acres and acres of shabby structures built from packing crates. There were people jammed together, getting water out of small hand communal pumps. There was some electricity in a few of the crate homes, because some were able to access the electricity from a public fixture like a street light and then run extension cords from one window hole to another, although most didn't have such luxury. I could see more and more and more desperate people streaming in to the park. Then going to piles of busted packing crates that the government had dumped in the park to scrounge material to make some sort of shelter. I asked my friends who these people were. They replied that they were those campesinos who, after being given land to work, were starving and had left their little farms and were steaming into Lima looking for work, food, and shelter.

I could go on into some of the other horrible things I saw while working in Lima, but I will just finish with one more. Although, the government was socialist, it wasn't good enough for the Sendero Luminoso, A Maoist revolutionary group inside of Peru (and many other countries). They decided to stage a "Huelga", which translates to a labor strike, but this isn't what us panzies in America or those in Europe think of as a labor strike. I was restricted to my hotel and listened to machine gun fire in the distance as the government troops fought the Maoists. The Maoists succeeded in blowing up the electrical generation facility for Lima. I was lucky because, my hotel had generators and I was able to see and take showers. Not everybody was so lucky as I learned when I noticed the smell in the airplane I took out of there.

So these Socialist redistribution schemes cause unbelievable misery, not only because they forcibly take from people, but because they mindlessly give to people that which they are not prepared to take care of.

In the law of Consecration, your stewardship are not equal in material value. Your stewardships are based upon your righteous desires. If I had no family, but I was capable and desired to build a shoe factory, and my neighbor had 10 kids, and desired to work in a shoe factory, my stewardship would need to be "larger" in material value than his, even though my need to support myself would be less.

I submit under the law of Consecration, if Dr. Jones, truly believe that cold fusion, magnets or such things hold the promise of future energy independence, he would better use his stewardship to pursue this goal which might hold great benefit to society, rather than divide it up among the poor.

Having seen this idea in practice, I see how evil it is. Now the only difference between this and Mr. Sinclair s dreams is that he wants to persuade either Church Leaders, rich fiends and relatives or government functionaries such as Senator Hatch to buy into these schemes. Thank goodness for that. They are each given the freedom to reject this destructive idea.

So to paraphrase Rush Limbaugh

I Love ya Robert, but I desperately hope and pray that you fail in your mission.

Regards,

George Clay

I don't understand George are you against everyone having a safe place of sanctuary to dwell in called a home, whether it's a condo for an older couple who don't want lawn care to a cattlemen who needs some land or a farmer or a family that works in factories and just would like a single family home in a housing tract?

I have had experience planning out an entire city in Southern California called the City of Santa Clarita California. We planned housing types for all different ranges from senior citizens to farmers or whatever. Commercial Shopping areas, schools, libraries, police, and fire facilities, county and city offices walkways parks ect.

I plotted out the entire boundaries for this city for submission to the Local Area Formation Commission or LAFCO of the County of Los Angeles California on United States Topographic maps. I worked with the various land owners on their desire to be included in the city boundaries or not. I worked with Federal Government and State Government and County Government officials on coordinating and planning of roadways, freeways, bridges, sewage treatment plants, and water storage facilities and infrastructure for all the needs and wants of this area. All this was done as I served on the Santa Clarita Valley Area Planning Committee, voted in as chairman of this group many, many years ago. Planning out all of this areas land uses and future zoning for an adopted General Plan.

I helped put together thousands of homes to be built in this area and others throughout Southern California as a Land Development Aquisitions Advisor for major developers in Southern California, many years ago.

So I do have experience in planning and the development of an entire city in Southern California which I don't mind saying is one of the nicest planned communities in the world.

In areas of this city there are miles and miles of walkways where you can walk out of your home and walk to school or shopping centers or parks or community centers without having to cross a street, as the walkways go over and under all the roads to let you so do.

You would have lots of fun going through these areas with me and see I have done a little more than one might think.

I got involved many, many years ago because I wanted to be involved in the planning of the city of Zion and wanted to learn everything I could about planning and building up a city.

You can go online and check out the City of Santa Clarita California and see it's one of the nicest planned communities in the world I feel. ♡ ♡

I would love to help create policy that would make it easy for every American citizen to own there own home outright as I believe that is the will of God given for his people, sufficient for their wants and needs that are just, as God has commanded. ♡ ♡

Robert,

Nice that you are so modest about your role in planning Santa Clarita. However, what you are trying to convince people to give you their money to do here is quite different.

Without some knowledgeable authoritative person... I guess like you... to decide who gets what or what it is that should be made available to the public, the free market allows those who have earned the right by obtaining enough wealth that they want to risk and allowing them to risking it by buying those houses condos, farms etc that you planned, that determines what people get and who gets it. Socialists sell their strategy on the idea that having more wealth makes it "unfair" for those who have less. However, whenever economy planners decide that they will decide a more fair distribution nothing but destruction, poverty and misery ensues.

Of course that doesn't stop a new breed of self righteous despots from trying to convince another bunch of covetous people that this time they will get it right.

I doubt that given the power, you would be any better.

Regards,

George Clay

Robert Sinclair,

By the way, I told all of my kids to avoid even a community with a homeowners association. I tell them

"Do you know why there are homeowners associations?"

Answer,

So you don't get neighbors.....like me!

If I want to have pink flamingos in my yard, or I want to paint my house pink, I don't want anybody telling me I can't. and I have been known to have an engine on a chain dangling from a tree before.

Regards,

George Clay

There was plenty of places for you George in Santa Clarita Valley Area, lots of fun places to spread out and live the lifestyle you liked up the various canyons areas.

I don't want to be in charge of distribution that is up to the bishops to decide, I would just like to give them the assets needed to see to it all of their ward members who had proven themselves worthy of baptism, according to the word of God, would be able to be given assistance getting a home sufficient for the needs and wants of their families.

As is written in the Scriptures. ♡ ♡

And as far as America as a whole giving wealthy citizens the ability to be able to give as many of their extra vacant homes as they wish away without any tax penalties nor tax penalties for the poor and needy among us that were given a home what's wrong with that? ♡ ♡

I like the idea of stewardship and I think it fits well with the "Safety Society System".

In SSS, according to the US Constitution, the Federal Government via the Congress coins the money. In reality, loan origination is the point at which a majority of the money creation happens. (This is why fractional reserves is a problem, the big banks themselves end up creating a majority of money) The Revolutionary War was fought over control over credit and currency. But we don't want the Federal Government saying who can borrow money and who can't. But having a national currency prevents currency wars and abuse by big banks.

So, the local Safety Society System Banks will serve as agents of the Federal Govenment and administer loans according to fair and equitable and standardized credit worthiness criteria. Local banks already serve as agents of the big banks and do the work of loan origination and make money on loan origination fees and immediate sell these loans back to the big banks. Local banks would make money the same way local banks do now.

The backing for Money creation is the land and the property and the real estate or real assets. In the case of mining, the backing for the money creation is the projected minerals in the ground (this can be measured).

The value (buying power) of money is the quantity and quality of labor needed to produce the product or service or mine the material out of the ground.

Anyways, how SSS relates to stewardship is that a person or group who has an idea for a business, or home, or farm (stewardship) or museum can get approved for a loan, and money is created on-demand, based on the individual's or groups' credit worthiness. The basis for the loan is the real assets, land that wil lbe purchased and the buildings that will be built.

If a person is successfully managing one business, and they have an idea for another and they are credit worthy, then they are aproved for another stewardship. They get the loan "on-demand" and ground is broken on the new venture.

IF the person cannot manage a business, and it is a good business, then the Bank repossesses the real asset and reassigns the asset to someone else who can manage the asset. Obiously a criteria for the original loan was that the idea for the business or venture or farm or house or museum or aquarium was a good idea, and needed by the community.

Loans will be simple interest or "fee-based". The local SSS bank just makes a loan origination fee and monthy loan service fee, and the federal govenment collects a fee in terms of a simple interest rate (this gives the saver the advantage over the borrower and creates a mechanism to control the value of money by making lending more difficult if there is too much money supply in the sytem.)

This system would work in any country, but the Federal government would need to decide it was going to issue its own currency and kick out the private central banks.

Robert,

I asked you on another thread a while ago if you would volunteer to do the redistributing and you said that you would. However, If you

I don't want to be in charge of distribution that is up to the bishops to decide

Then no problem... that is already the policy... or is it yo want to tell them that current Church policy is contrary to the scriptures and the need to get with the program?

And as far as America as a whole giving wealthy citizens the ability to be able to give as many of their extra vacant homes as they wish away without any tax penalties nor tax penalties for the poor and needy among us that were given a home what's wrong with that?

Hey I would vote to reduce the taxes on the money the rich want to give away? But they can still give it away. They don't need the tax break. They just can't give quite as much.

But then again you are being dishonest, either here or previously because you have not previously expressed a willingness to let the rich give as much or a little as they see fit or to let LDS church leaders fulfill their calling as THEY are prompted by the spirit.

But then you do think that smiley faces and hearts covers up a lot of duplicity.

Regards,

George Clay

Robert,

I looked at pictures of of Santa Clarita up on the internet. It looks like a set for the Stepford Wives to me! Hey if that is what you want, all the more power to you.

However, as for me, if heaven is like the Stepford Wives, I want no part of it!

Regards,

George Clay

In SSS, the individual decides what stewardship they will take according to their talents/interest/inspiration, the local SSS bank or call it bishops storehouse or whatever you want to call it gives approval only.

Come on George lighten up a little, I am not trying to do anything other that as much good as I can possibly do with what time I have left before I go the way of all the earth.

If I see the Scriptures written saying I should weep and howl and sound the alarm and blow the trumpet in Zion about the perversion of equity, what's so wrong about that?

Do you not believe that God has asked that this be done in the House of Ephraim?

Do you feel everything is good and going well and no one is going to go to hell for rejecting the celestial law given?

Are you not curious whatsoever why Enoch would say that the last Twelve and Seventy Shepherds would destroy all the blind sheep and they both will be judged, found guilty, and thrust into the fiery abyss?

I did not write the Book of Enoch.

Are you not curious about Moroni telling Joseph Smith 4 times in one 24 hour period that the words of Joel were soon to be upon us all and of the blood moons coming and sun eclipses on the Jews Holy Days soon to come?

I hope everything is going well for you and that you get to the celestial kingdom of God. ♡ ♡

Buy the way, I don't have a problem with "housing first". It does look to reduce the cost of the homeless.

However, under SSS, home mortgages are paid off much sooner. the current system is a sham.

SSS is full reserve and fee based loan (simple interest) with ZERO inflation in the economy.

The property or the home being contructed is the backing for the on-demand money creation that is approved by the local SSS branch. The money itself is created at the point of loan origination by the Federal Government according to the US Constitution.

What fixed rate loans would you think you could offer? ♡ ♡

Could you offer 0% interest 30-50 years with an up front fee? ♡ ♡

The local SSS bank would charge a loan origination fee and a monthy loan service fee to cover the cost of business only. SSS would be non-profit.

The Federal Government would charge a fee (prime interest = simple interest = fee) which would generate revenue for the federal government and would be a tax on lending and currency usage. The purpose of this fee or simple interest which would be charged monthly would be to make saving better than borrowing and which would control the money supply and regulate the value of money (which is also specified in the US Constitution)

The Federal Tax rate on borrowing would be between 1-10% I suppose. It depends of the money supply and maintaining the buying power of the dollar.

This borrowing tax, and tariffs would completely take the place of the income tax. There is no compound interest (usury) here and there is ZERO INFLATION.

On a one hundred thousand dollars loan what do you see your monthly payments running? ♡ ♡

At 0% interest over 50 years payments would only run about 167.00 per month. ♡ ♡

$100,000 loan

10 year $833/mo, bank fee, federal fee
15 year $556/mo, bank fee, federal fee
20 year $417/mo, bank fee, federal fee
30 year $278/mo, bank fee, federal fee
50 year $167/mo, bank fee, federal fee

The system rewards saving over borrowing and paying off sooner than later. But noone is profiting off anyone else. Fees cover overhead and control the money supply.

Do you have any idea how much the fees would run each month? ♡ ♡

Well the Safety Society banking fee depends on the overhead of the non-profit bank.

Zion City with 1000 homes:
20 year average home ownership, = 50 loans per year = 4 loans per month
Bank loan origination fee: $2000 (might could stretch the fee over several months, roll it into the monthly fee)
Banker Salary: 100,000/yr = 4 loans per month

IF you add banking employees you add to the fee
IF you add banking services with fees, you can decrease the fee

There would likely be a Banking Journeyman $50,000/yr and a couple banking apprentices $25,000/yr
The additional cost = $100,000 yr which can be covered by montly book-keeping loan service charge
Of the 1000 homes, about 1/4 will have a mortgage and be paying a monthly service charge at any time (low estimate)
250 homes paying a monthly service charge of just $33/mo would cover these salaries.

You would only need one of these Saftety Society banks per city. SSS would also be a full reserve deposit bank. They would hold 100% of deposits in reserve and not lend those deposits out. Loan money comes 100% from the federal government "on-demand" upon loan approval.

The current corrupt fiat, central banking, fractional reserve system is about to collapse.

Glenn Beck, ALex Jones, Sean Hannity are all advertizing for gold. Why? Because all the preppers holding gold will accept the first economic system offered so that their gold with have value again.

IF we don't suggest the proper replacement economic system, then the enemy will give us another false system.

Robert Sinclair,

I apologize for for getting sidetracked and not answering your first question.

I don't understand George are you against everyone having a safe place of sanctuary to dwell in called a home, whether it's a condo for an older couple who don't want lawn care to a cattlemen who needs some land or a farmer or a family that works in factories and just would like a single family home in a housing tract?

Apparently you must see the horror of Satan's plan in action for yourself in order to see how it destroys people. Except I doubt that would convince you either. Your plan IS Satan's plan. It is Satan that wants to give people stuff so they don't have work for it!!!!!

I see now that your not wanting to understand this most important, key part of God's plan is why you have never made a cogent response in previous posts to my statements, when you were using your syrupy comments with hearts and smiley faces about how much you would like to give me a place after I stated I didn't want one. I would rather earn it myself.

We only grow when we stretch ourselves trying to make our own way. If you just give people stuff it creates only misery for those to whom you give it. If you weren't moved by the misery I observed in Peru, maybe you could connect to the misery in many of our inner cities here in the USA, including the burned out apartment buildings in the Bronx, that once were very nice new HUD buildings built with taxpayer's money, which turned first into slums worse than the slums that the people to whom these apartments were given had left, then to dangerous gang hideouts where drug deals and rape were common in the stairways, and then to burned out hulks.

That Stepford Wive's fantasy that you dress up with smiley faces, hearts, obscure quotes from scripture, and syrupy language is simply half of Satan's plan dressed up in new clothes. and it Destroys all, those from who it is taken AND those to whom it is given.

God's plan is to create an environment where we are given the opportunity to grow, and learn and prove ourselves. In this environment, there are those who cannot do for themselves. This is a wonderful part of God's plan because that blesses all. Those who have more than they need can grow in love by giving to their brothers (and sisters), and those who need help get that bit of help over obstacles that they may be comforted and be given the opportunity to grow more themselves.

I have been a financial clerk in our ward for many years. I have had the blessing of participating an a small way with Bishops who have prayerfully worked out with their counselors and the Holy Spirit how to use the fast offerings to aid those in need. Often, they come up with creative solutions. Unlike various satanic plans of the government, it does actually work, and both the givers and receivers of Fast Offering assistance are blessed.

So I am glad that you don't want to tell Bishops, Stake Presidents, and the General authorities how to give to the poor, because their track record for things that work is much preferable to the misery and wreckage left behind various schemes that have been tried that look a lot like yours.

To repeat a cliche. It is healthy to give someone a hand up, and terrible to give them handouts.

DaveDan,

While I am not familiar with all of the details of the money plan you are supporting, it does seem to address a modern evil. Fractional banking is the key to our current path to destroying our money. Something effective that would restore real value to our currency would do a lot to getting us back on track. It is truly said that "The Love of Money is the Root of all evil". This is true, but people confuse this and think that money, rather than the LOVE of money is the root of all evil. Without money, we could not live much better than a caveman society.

Regards,

George Clay

George, the gospel of Jesus Christ from his own lips is to just give handouts, as well as to dilligently set examples.

Wherefore is the word "Priesthood" or "Great Teacher" or "Rabbi" even as Melchizedek and Enoch were.

I see you have been instructed dilligently otherwise.

Read diligently the words of Jesus Christ over and over and over again saying to just give, he lies not in his sayings.

Jesus Christ himself has said that if a man will steal away your goods to just let them go, how on earth could you hearken unto his voice, and with a heart full of love, just let your goods go?

Ponder upon that for a few days......

For now that should suffice. ♡ ♡

Robert Sinclair,

You are right. I never understood from you reams of pompous words the satanic fundamental core of your belief. I wonder how many others here realize that you are not merely missing any coherent response to queries about self reliance and charity that helps those who help themselves. Let alone your lack of coherent response to my claims to not want the property that you would have convinced church leaders to give out with a "covenant and a deed", that you don't believe in it!

You don't believe in the principle of work or self reliance!!! I can see by the strength of your belief that no matter how much misery has been created by people implementing similar beliefs, your heart will never be moved. You believe in a Charity that requires NOTHING from the receiver.

I guess that the good news is that this is so Core to the belief of the LDS Church that you will NEVER prevail in convincing the Lord's anointed to follow you. Praise the Lord!

I with more fervor repeat " I love you Bob, but I fervently hope and pray that you fail in your mission!" I also hope that this clarity will make those here who seem to see wisdom in your words to rethink what it is you are proposing now that you have stated it in simple words.

By the way you might want to review the parable of the talents, Moses 4:1, Moses 5;1, Genesis 3:19, D&C 85:79

Regards,

George Clay