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The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zion
Posted: January 26th, 2015, 1:47 pm
by deep water
The law of consecration, united order, VS all things in common, Zion. Is there a difference between the two. I for one can see a huge difference between the two. The difference being; there is a rule making class, group, people, determining the agency of others. They make the rules that others have to live by, they appoint inheritances, not God. God gave a land for people, not lands for a person. Think of this. All laws that we live now, even in Church, will go away in Zion, or (Heaven). All decisions will be made based upon love. Love will be the governing factor, not rules or laws. A love that you, in your present state can not even begin to understand or believe in. Those who get to the point that they believe in God and Christ, will become like them. They will have no need for ownership, because they believe in God. They live in the rest of God, believing that all things are for their benefit. Even things they would not necessarily desire. Even Christ ask if the cup might be removed. A tally of how much earthly things you can produce will not even enter the minds of the people of Zion. A Zion person will wear out his life seeking someone to take his excess. The fact that the law of Consecration or United Order failed was because it was based upon a false model. If it was established upon Zion, or all things in common and maintained that love that is Zion it would have seceded. This is his kingdom that he needs to be established so he can return. Christ was offered a earthly Kingdom in this world and turned it down, shouldn't those who profess to believe in him learn to follow his example?
In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve did not have to toil. They were comfortable and lived by the Grace of God. In their sin they were cast out of that Garden. Out of the presence and protection of God and gods love. They received a curse upon them that they would no longer receive their rest from God. They had to earn it. Do you not believe that if you repent and return to God, that he will repent and give you his rest again? Are not all blessings predicated upon the law given. No longer having to "by the sweat of your brow" eat your daily bread? God has told us that this is true in His scriptures, we are the ones that do not believe.
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: January 26th, 2015, 2:00 pm
by Dubs
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: January 26th, 2015, 2:10 pm
by Darren
One of the purposes I have seen in the lost tribes of Israel returning from the North Country, where they disappeared from, and bringing their Scriptures and testimony of Jesus Christ's visit to them, is to show us that they lived by the Law of Consecration and Stewardship, as an example to us of how to actually get going with the program.
We on the other hand have fallen for the Apostate's lures and tricks, and have allowed him to govern over us in his apostate systems of control.
That said, if you begin to study the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel you find that they had all things in common, in a "seeking" joint ownership with Christ, with remnants of that system still found in our current way to do things and has traditionally been called, "The Free (as in the Nordic name of the mother of God) Enterprise System." That is that by working together by Law we come into the family of the Lord, of which his mother, Free, is recognized in that System.
The model for the Free Enterprise System was always based on the Guild System that continued to this day in London, England's Worshipful Companies and was the basis of life for the Hanseatic League and its predecessor organizations that had its beginnings on the Island of Fyn, not long after the Lord visited them and set up his way to live and work together by the Oath to Him.
What went wrong was when that system was infiltrated by the systems of Materialism, that we call coinage, and the coin of the Babylonian Realms, their management system, on the earth.
We must return to the "Free Enterprise System" of our lost tribes of Israel ancestors, that was originally run by the contracts that came through each bishop's storehouse, that preceded the inclusion of coinage into that economy.
God Bless,
Darren
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: January 26th, 2015, 2:22 pm
by deep water
Do not we all secretly desire a rich man to share a fish with us, when a poor man has already come and taught us how to Fish?
Or do we sell ourselfs to the highest bidder, not realizing we have already been paid for, if we do his will.
Am I anymore deserving of my home and property than anyone else. Would Christ, me and everyone else have equal claim of ownership?
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: January 30th, 2015, 9:02 pm
by Tribunal
deep water, what kind of society do you see under the Law of Consecration, or the United Order, or Zion? Would you please explain what the world would like like under these systems? How would we live? How would we interact? How would society be governed?
Daren, I would like your opinion as well.
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: January 30th, 2015, 9:13 pm
by marc
Darren wrote:...That said, if you begin to study the Scriptures of the lost tribes of Israel you find that they had all things in common...
One small clarification. The correct term is "all things common," not "all things in common." Big difference. The prophets in the Book of Mormon wrote "all things common." Whoever wrote some of the chapter headings incorrectly, wrote "all things in common."
-All things common=correct
-All things in common=incorrect
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: January 30th, 2015, 9:39 pm
by Ezra
as I understand it is this.
Zion we will voluntarily give all our property and belongings to the lord. And he then decides who what and how much each people are then stewards over.
Or in other words. We own no property or possessions
God owns it all.
0 ownership 0 Worldliness
All things in common? I don't even know how that could ever be possible. How would anyone determine it? Who would solve an issue if someone felt cheated?
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: January 30th, 2015, 10:45 pm
by Tribunal
Ezra, so everyone on the planet is going to give all their property to one person, the Lord? Or everyone on the planet is going to give their property to those claiming to represent the Lord? If we are to have all things common among us who will decide? Will some be more equal than others in this decision process?
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: January 30th, 2015, 11:42 pm
by deep water
A Zion or= Heavenly society will have no Earthly rules. All laws-rules decisions will be based, enacted through Love. Love will be the governing principal. God has to change you to achieve that level of love. No one will have to give anyone anything, for all who are Zion recognize that the lord supplies our everything. Therefore what claim do I have over anothers claim in Gods creations. The world is truly set up this way, we just do not recognize that it is. When I am born I have no earthly possessions. When I die, I take no earthly possessions. Yet while I am here I think that I need to build a kingdom to surround myself with, to pacify my unbelief. Zion is the automatic outcome of believing in god enough to live the first and second commandment. No one can see Zion while standing in Babylon.
Ezra wrote; All things in common? I don't even know how that could ever be possible. How would anyone determine it? Who would solve an issue if someone felt cheated?
There is no way to teach Zion. The only way to understand Zion is for God to let you fill of the Love that is Zion. Then in the flash of a second, you will understand, never to question again.
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: January 31st, 2015, 12:28 am
by Ezra
Tribunal wrote:Ezra, so everyone on the planet is going to give all their property to one person, the Lord? Or everyone on the planet is going to give their property to those claiming to represent the Lord? If we are to have all things common among us who will decide? Will some be more equal than others in this decision process?
Who's property is all things on this earth? It's gods he created all things. We may have molded or changed some of his creations as we have decided to but they are still gods. He created all things on and in the earth. Including us.
You would not be giving up something that is yours in the first place.
What you would be giving up is the possessive nature of man. The worldly nature of man.
God would still give you stewardship of land for you to build a house grow your food.
It's like the parable of the talents. He gave some people 10 some 5 some 1.
And depending on how they us it is depending on how he rewarded them or took away from them.
The stewardship we are given will be ours to work to better. To multiply our talents or not.
But what we are given won't be equal.
As a rancher needs more room for his cows. As a farmer needs more ground then a doctor.
We will be given what we are given by the lord to suit our needs and to grow our talents if we choose.
For slothful servants they might have some of their stewardship reduced and given to another?
It's a system that would take selfless unworldly people to be successful.
You must remember that many called few chosen. They are not chosen because they care about the things of the world.
It's not a status thing or a fair thing it's about working to better your fellow men while working to better yourself.
Not for selfish possession of a worldy object.
The reward is the betterment of all in knowledge and spirit.
If we all had the same everything. Same house same car same cloths same. Blaaa.
Humans don't do well with the same thing as everyone eles. We are individuals. We like our own individuality.
And those individuals who build their talents will recive more and can do more.
But ownership isant ours. We are only stewards.
It's no diffrent then now if you think about it. All that you own now you can't take with you when you die. So It dosent really belong to you. Only your knowledge and spirit go with you when you die.
Ownership of earthy things is an illusion. It's something we have made up so we can feel important or happy. But that's not where happiness comes from.
We are supposed to be in the world not of it. We are here to learn and grow be tested not to own things.
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: January 31st, 2015, 10:07 am
by deep water
In the book of Isaiah, he gives a different picture than the one you painted Esra. Isaiah says that you will build your own house and not live in a house that another has built, you will raise your own food and you will not eat the food another has raised. This tells me that the millennium will be very different than how we live now. The people who live in the Millennium will think a lot different than we do now.
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: January 31st, 2015, 12:08 pm
by Ezra
deep water wrote:In the book of Isaiah, he gives a different picture than the one you painted Esra. Isaiah says that you will build your own house and not live in a house that another has built, you will raise your own food and you will not eat the food another has raised. This tells me that the millennium will be very different than how we live now. The people who live in the Millennium will think a lot different than we do now.
That's the same thing I have been saying. Read it again.
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: January 31st, 2015, 12:56 pm
by Tribunal
Ezra, I understand what you are saying but you do you understand what I am saying?
I'm referring to the human-aspect of any government program - even in the LDS Church.
In a Utopian system of governance like the United Order or Zion, the people aren't literally giving their property to the Lord. The people are giving their property to other people who claim to represent the Lord, and managing the property for the Lord.
If these future representatives of the Lord are of the same caliber as those who claim to represent the Lord today, a future Zion or United Order will be of the same corrupt perverted mess that exists in the LDS Church today.
Something has to change. So what is it? What is that change that must take place in order for people to truly represent the Lord?
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: January 31st, 2015, 1:46 pm
by Desert Roses
Tribunal wrote:Ezra, I understand what you are saying but you do you understand what I am saying?
I'm referring to the human-aspect of any government program - even in the LDS Church.
In a Utopian system of governance like the United Order or Zion, the people aren't literally giving their property to the Lord. The people are giving their property to other people who claim to represent the Lord, and managing the property for the Lord.
If these future representatives of the Lord are of the same caliber as those who claim to represent the Lord today, a future Zion or United Order will be of the same corrupt perverted mess that exists in the LDS Church today.
Something has to change. So what is it? What is that change that must take place in order for people to truly represent the Lord?
I'm not Ezra, but I had an experience a number of years ago. I had a Home Teacher who, in discussing the Millennium, insisted that human greed would not, could not go away, even in that time, and that we would still be driven by greed or "what's in it for me?" as we worked. I disagreed; I could easily envision a society just like Ezra described. I let go of the idea that I own anything, and the Lord gives me, as a stewardship (not to possess, but to use to care for my needs and serve my brothers and sisters) what I need. If I have 10 children, I might need a large home and yard. If my husband and I are the only ones in our family, such as a family whose children are grown, I might be given a small home, in keeping with my needs. If my neighbor is a musician, s/he might have a grand living room with a piano and other musical needs, while I, as a gardener, would likely have a yard with room to grow food to share with my neighbor who is busy writing and performing music instead of growing food. My Home Teacher insisted I was wrong, until he went home and studied the scriptures on the subject. He came back the next month and apologized, and showed me that my understanding of what it means to have all things common was indeed a life without greed or selfish desires to collect, maintain, and hoard any material goods or property.
The thing that must change is in us--our hearts. Those who will not let go of greed and selfishness, and accept the Lord Jesus Christ as the King of the entire earth will not be left when He comes--they are among those who will be burned, because they are "the world."
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: January 31st, 2015, 2:08 pm
by Ezra
I see what your saying and agree. There needs to be a Change. and the changes that need to be made exist even in some of our leadership.
I think that what will change will happen either by choice. Or the cleansing will naturally force that change. As humanity from what I understand from prophecy is that we will be slapped back into pioneer type life styles. No power no cars no technology. It will be very humbling. And posestions will be meaningless food will be the most precious commodity.
So I've chosen to ween myself off those things of the world in preperation of those times.
As I have I've had that change of heart and understanding. Those worldly thing hold very little desire for me. Even what I have I would walk away from with no regrets or to look back.
I find the idea of zion as easy to live. But 5 years ago wouldn't have been able to say that.
5 years ago I saw it as my things and my stuff. Now it's the lords if he wanted me to give it away I would. But tell that time I'm prepairing to feed anyone who comes to my place befor and when the crap hits the fan and the cleansing starts. I hope to have enough food stored and growing to feed 100s of people.
There is a reason that it's fortold that people will join the church by the hundreds and thousands that sit in front of us.
One reason I see that is because we were prepaireed. The other is all the tares amoung our numbers will have been uprooted. And only the wheat will remain to teach the word of God and to set the example of his people.
Right now our hypocritical membership leave a bad taste in people's mouths. After the cleansing it won't be that way.
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: January 31st, 2015, 4:28 pm
by Tribunal
Desert Roses and Ezra I agree with the both of you. But I don't see anything changing unless there is a cleansing of the world and that means a lot of death and destruction. I believe it will cost that much pain for the survivors to decide enough is enough. I wish there was another way.
I wonder if God were to give the world a sign if that would make a difference, but how many people have seen God and still turned away?
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: January 31st, 2015, 4:53 pm
by Ezra
Tribunal wrote:Desert Roses and Ezra I agree with the both of you. But I don't see anything changing unless there is a cleansing of the world and that means a lot of death and destruction. I believe it will cost that much pain for the survivors to decide enough is enough. I wish there was another way.
I wonder if God were to give the world a sign if that would make a difference, but how many people have seen God and still turned away?
I've often wondered if christ came and preached his gosple to the lds church without them knowing who he was. Just how many would reject his gosple. I would guess 50% at least.
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: January 31st, 2015, 8:24 pm
by buffalo_girl
Doctrine & Covenants 88
25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—
26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.
Doctrine & Covenants 105
5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.
I'm not sure that even the LORD will distribute that which will sustain individual families. I think that when we are living the law of the celestial kingdom we will
KNOW where we belong, what we
need, and what we
want for the continuing edification and happiness of ourselves as individuals, as couples, as families, and as communities.
I believe we will also KNOW the '
needs' and '
wants' of our fellow beings and find joy in their prosperity as much as we find joy in our own prosperity.
I remember neighborhoods which had been planned so that individual homes had their own yards, but shared a 'commons' for grazing animals or for community gardens. There were NO fences between yards.
Those neighborhoods were based upon an 'ideal' that never came to fruition into the real world.
Doctrine & Covenants 38
27 ...I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine.
If we can imagine it, we can certainly bring it to fruition by hearing His voice, following Him and abiding in His LAW.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... 8?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
19 And I will give it unto you for the land of your inheritance, if you seek it with all your hearts.
20 And this shall be my covenant with you, ye shall have it for the land of your inheritance, and for the inheritance of your children forever, while the earth shall stand, and ye shall possess it again in eternity, no more to pass away.
21 But, verily I say unto you that in time ye shall have no king nor ruler, for I will be your king and watch over you.
22 Wherefore, hear my voice and follow me, and you shall be a free people, and ye shall have no laws but my laws when I come, for I am your lawgiver, and what can stay my hand?
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: February 1st, 2015, 11:09 am
by deep water
ezra wrote;----deep water wrote:
In the book of Isaiah, he gives a different picture than the one you painted Esra. Isaiah says that you will build your own house and not live in a house that another has built, you will raise your own food and you will not eat the food another has raised. This tells me that the millennium will be very different than how we live now. The people who live in the Millennium will think a lot different than we do now.
That's the same thing I have been saying. Read it again
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No you are looking at Zion through the D&Cs view of it. Why would there be a farmer, or rancher. If a person only ate what they grew. Also why would there be a rancher if the lion lays beside the lamb? The bear and wolf eat grass. No harm in all the world. It will be a very little house on the prairie type of life, without the buy sell trade. There will be no Church, only Gods government. The land will be flattened. Rain will water your crops. You will desire one set of apparel. If this is what you mean then I misunderstood.
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: February 1st, 2015, 4:22 pm
by Ezra
Ohh I see what your saying. Cool Ya agree. Lot and lots of change befor that happens. Be really interesting to watch the land change to that.
I would miss the mountains though.
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: February 1st, 2015, 4:37 pm
by Darren
Tribunal wrote:deep water, what kind of society do you see under the Law of Consecration, or the United Order, or Zion? Would you please explain what the world would like like under these systems? How would we live? How would we interact? How would society be governed?
Daren, I would like your opinion as well.
America is a continuation of many principles that come from an earlier Law of Consecration and United Order Society.
W. Cleon Skousen, in The Majesty of God's Law wrote:
... Jefferson carefully compared the constitution of the Israelites with the laws of the Anglo-Saxons which were almost identical.
... the Founders were using the divine science of government revealed to the Israelites.
These people were the Anglo-Saxons.
Jefferson not only studied everything he could find out about these people who were the ancestors of most of the colonists, but he devoted many months to learning how to read the Anglo-Saxon language so that he could study their ancient principles of law and government from their original writings.
Where Did the Anglo-Saxons Come From?
According to the Saga(s) from the Anglo-Saxon oral history in Iceland, this people had originally lived in large numbers around the Black Sea until the first century BC. (This is the general area where the lost Ten Tribes of Israel lived until they disappeared.)
Their oral history, songs and tradition say that as a result of this migration they eventually settled in Germany and the Scandinavian countries.
Important to Jefferson (w)as the exciting fact that for centuries these people had been practicing many of the principles of government and law which God had given to Moses.
Impressed Jefferson … the fact that everywhere the Anglo-Saxons went, they established the highest order of government and law.
... Professor Gilbert Chinard, one of the distinguished biographers of Jefferson states:
"Jefferson's great ambition at that time was to promote a renaissance of Anglo-Saxon primitive institutions on the new continent. Thus presented, the American Revolution was nothing but the reclamation of the Anglo-Saxon birthright of which the colonists had been deprived by a `long train of abuses.'"
... On August 13, 1776, Jefferson wrote to Edmund Pendleton of the Virginia legislature to urge him to help abolish the remnants of feudalism, and return to the "ancient principles" which carry with them a promise from God. He wrote:
"Are we not better for what we have hitherto abolished of the feudal system? Had not every restitution of the ancient Saxon laws had happy effect? Is it not better now that we return at once into that happy system of our ancestors, the wisest and most perfect and most perfect ever devised by the wit of man, as it stood before the eighth century."
But, of course, Jefferson was far ahead of his time -- perhaps a couple of centuries or more. But eventually, he knew it had to happen.
America, blessed with a rightous heritage also has the baggage of the parasitical system of Babylon.
The way the future Law of Consecration and United Order Society will be, as all the goodness that American can be of the Saxon heritage with the Babylon stuff expelled.
Basically, working together as companies, cooperatives, and commonwealths, the economy will be run as the "contract economy" with the coins of Babylon turned into pavement.
God Bless,
Darren
Re: The law of Consecration, UO VS all things in common, Zio
Posted: February 1st, 2015, 7:20 pm
by deep water
One way to see Zion's workings is to look at the devil's counterfeit to Zion. Looking at what the founding fathers gave us and what we have now, will give you a good understanding. Look at what communism professes and how it truly works. Kinda like looking at the LDS Church and Zion. The people who have the most light shined into the darkness, will be held responsible to live a more Christ like life than those who were left in the dark. The Lamanites survived Gods cleansing of America, not the Nephits. Drinking and smoking will make little difference in the lords cleansing. If we were taking care of the elderly, no need for ss would have arisen. ECT. ECT.