LDS Freedom Forum

I am sure that many of you, like me, are aware of probably the dozens if not hundreds of statements by the brethren and the scriptures about the differences in these two systems. Like many of you, I get really concerned when many good latter-day Saints have no idea that there is a difference (SEVERAL big differences). In these instances I usually bring up the Joseph Smith quote to the person about he did not believe in the doctrine of socialism and then I usually refer them to Marion G. Romney's talk about the United Order vs. Socialism. I usually get even more frustrated when these same individuals dismiss literally dozens of statements, talks, and sources due to the lack of modern statements by the brethren. Thankfully, and I wanted to share this with you, that the 2015 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants Institute Student Manual contains a whole chapter that describes what the law of consecration is and what it is not. Here is the link to share with your friends: https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and ... p?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When will the heads of Ephraim do as instructed in section 105:10 of having experience imparting these covenants and deeds into the hands of the poor Saints sufficient for the support of their families?

Is the time of June 22,1834 till this very day not been sufficient to teach more perfectly these duties?

How many generations must pass away not being taught perfectly these duties and to have experience receiving from the Storehouse Treasury of Tithes and Offerings covenants and deeds into their hands sufficient for the support of their families?

Has not the Council of the Disposition of Tithes seen or heard the efforts of Brother Jones on this forum site requesting help with these things?

To say there is not sufficient to help with these things is to say that Jesus Christ does not speak the truth.

Jesus Christ has said that there is more than enough and to spare. ♡ ♡

When the heads of Ephraim cannot see a way to start having experience imparting as God has commanded, and give mighty oratories and wind as to why they cannot as yet keep themselves the commandments of God given, the Scriptures written are true and correct and fullfilled every whit.

The pursuit of lands and building temples anyways before amending their evil ways and their unequal doings has been written and foretold thousands of years ago by Hosea.

The fruits are so far away now from being equal in their temporal things and this not grudgingly, while the idols of shopping malls and multi million dollar empty condos sit vacant, you must see how the Lord of the vineyard looks upon all these things.

Therefore did Moroni testified of the words of Joel were soon to be upon us all 4 times to Joseph Smith in less than 24 hours the same message.

Look to the words of Joel and the inequality of the vineyard and know of the blood moons coming and the sun being darkened on the Jews holy days coming.

The time grows short for Ephraim to acknowledge his offence and return to have experience and teach the people more perfectly by their own freewill and examples.

And to teach more perfectly that "all" of one's surplus beyond that needed for the support of their selves and their families is required to partake of the sacrament each week promising to keep his commandments which he has given us worthily. ♡ ♡

Equity has been perverted as is written in Micah chapter 3 read and see how these lands of Zion shall be plowed as a field for such.

There is no escape from the truth.

So weep and howl and sound the alarm and blow the trumpet in Zion about the perversion of equity in the vineyard, that the old men and administers of the law of God might just give ear and consider:

Hath this been in our day and time and even in the days of our fathers?

Yes, yes it has.

Awaken, for who has stood in the presence of Jesus Christ and returned to give us his testimony word for word of what Jesus Christ has spoken?

Jeremiah has testified that in the latter days you will consider this perfectly.

Awaken, acknowledge and atone, by returning to keep the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ of the celestial law given.

You will be glad you did. ♡ ♡

Robert,
There is no real difference between the law of consecration and communism.
None at all.

Robin Hood, are you saying that for four generations after Christ visited the Nephites, they were practicing communism when they voluntarily had all things common?

Yes their is a great difference in private property for all verses no private property.

And the forcible over throw, verses the freewill offerings, of all one's own surplus wealth, because of a willingness to serve God, seeking for goodness and equality, and justice and righteousness, and purity of heart, of of a people who wish to serve one another, and care and love one another, as the Gospel of Jesus Christ, of the celestial law given requires, equal in your temporal things and this not grudgingly, by giving and imparting of covenants and deeds, that cannot be broken, into the hands of the poor Saints, sufficient for the support of their families, from the consecrated Tithes and Offerings without any grudgingly behavior. This first and foremost, before even one brick is laid, or property purchased, for the building of buildings for worshipping God, or the public benefit thereof.

See to it that a distribution is made in this House of Ephraim and invited guests, as an example and light unto the world, of how God wills it to be speedily, and delay the redemption of Zion upon this earth no longer.

Get to work having experience, imparting of the Storehouse Treasury of Tithes and Offerings, and teach by example, and in words, perfectly, the gospel of Jesus Christ by the freewill, of the leaders in the House of Ephraim and invited guests.

Yes like unto Melchizedek and Enoch, establish peace in the land, and no poor among you following the instructions of Jesus Christ received of God.

And rejoice therein and be glad ye children of Zion for the Lord will do great things. ♡ ♡

And remember always that the Lord Jesus Christ does not lie, and he has said that there is more than enough and to spare. Manifest faith in the words of Jesus Christ and you shall see the windows of heaven opening up and pouring out such great blessings, that there will not even be room enough to receive it all. ♡ ♡

Robin Hood wrote:Robert,
There is no real difference between the law of consecration and communism.
None at all.

No diffrence at all. Other then one small diffrence.
One is gods plan. One is satans plan.

Which one do you follow Robin Hood?

Robin Hood. in my discussions with fellow Saints who believe as you do I have come to find that their belief is an assumption based on no evidence from the scriptures or the prophetic word. They cling to a few examples that occurred in Utah that were freely admitted to not be the economic system that was revealed to Joseph, and these were the exception instead of the rule.

In essence, you will not find one authoritative figure in any dispensation that hold such a view as the one you have proposed. I would plead that before you spew out ignorant statements that you do your own homework on the subject. If you want sources, I provided a great link in my original post as a good start. I can provide a whole lot more if requested.

Robin Hood wrote:Robert,
There is no real difference between the law of consecration and communism.
None at all.

Who controls the means of production?

Shall the ax boast itself against him that heweth therewith? ♡ ♡

coachmarc wrote:Robin Hood, are you saying that for four generations after Christ visited the Nephites, they were practicing communism when they voluntarily had all things common?

Yes, of course.
Don't fall into the trap of equating communism with Soviet style totalitarian socialism; which resembles communism in rhetoric only.

Communism is imposed upon the people by force, the United Order is a voluntary association.

God has given us his celestial law which requires that covenants and deeds that cannot be broken be given into the hands of the poor and needy, sufficient for the support of their families from the consecrated Tithes and Offerings without any grudgingly behavior.

The Communist Manifesto has no private property of covenants and deeds that cannot be broken being placed into the hands of the poor and needy.

Covenants and Deeds that cannot be broken, yes, see to it Ephraim leaders take the lead in manifesting the will of God, by their examples, in his one and only true church that he gave direct commandment to, yes, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, who have this celestial law given unto them. ♡ ♡

Return to keep this celestial law faithfully, being taught and lived perfectly. ♡ ♡

And be a light O House of Ephraim unto this nation and the whole earth, of God, on how to treat the poor among you. ♡ ♡

gkearney wrote:Communism is imposed upon the people by force...

Say's who?

The forcible over throw written in the Communist Manifesto. ♡ ♡

Robert Sinclair wrote:The forcible over throw written in the Communist Manifesto. ♡ ♡

Next you'll be telling me that Karl Marx and Frederick Engels invented communism!
The Communist Manifesto is a commentary on an idea, not the idea itself.

"To each according to his need; from each according to his ability".
Sounds very United Order-ish to me.

Who controls the means of production and distribution?

Their idea also was Communism makes all existing religions superfluous and supersedes them.

If you appreciate God's will and law of private property of covenants and deeds that cannot be broken, as stewardships of inheritances from which one can be on equal footing to start, then you support and sustain the celestial law given of God.

If you try to climb up to heaven on earth by any other way around his laws you will have to answer before the judgment bar of Christ for why not be valiant in the testimony of his words and law given.

Be valiant in the testimony of Jesus Christ and the words of God given unto him, you will be glad you did. ♡ ♡

Robert Sinclair,

I wish I had a nickel for every-time you repeated such meaningless drivel as

covenants and deeds that cannot be broken be given into the hands of the poor and needy, sufficient for the support of their families from the consecrated Tithes and Offerings without any grudgingly behavior

I could support the needs of the poor just on those nickels

I do find the following a bit confusing

, in his one and only true church that he gave direct commandment to, yes, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, who have this celestial law given unto them

If you believe this to be the true church then why do you not accept

“Full implementation of the united order must, according to the revelation, await the redemption of Zion. (See D&C 105:34.) In the meantime—while we are being more perfectly taught and are gaining experience—we should be strictly living the principles of the united order insofar as they are embodied in present Church requirements, such as tithing, fast offerings, welfare projects, storehouses, and other principles and practices. Through these programs we should, as individuals, implement in our own lives the bases of the united order.

why not and wait until the Lord's time?

It is pretty clear that for this to work, we need to be more concerned with our own living of this covenant, and not trying to judge whether other people a sufficiently living it? Or do you have Special revelation so that you can determine whether Thomas S Monson or George Clay are living this law sufficiently, and dispensation from Jesus Christ to call us to repentance?

How about you. Have you deeded all of you property over to

his one and only true church

and asked for a stewardship. Even if you don't do that what have you done to increase the physical stewardship that you have received of the Lord, and give to the poor all that you don't need for yourself( and don't babble about taxes, because if you truly believe what you say , you just pay the taxes and give!)

Think of how much good you could do for the poor if you spent half as much time, energy and money living the law of consecration as best as you can as you do criticizing everybody else, particularly the Lord's anointed!

Regards,

George Clay

Robin Hood wrote:"To each according to his need; from each according to his ability".
Sounds very United Order-ish to me.

Who controls "To each" and who controls "from each"?

God controls the means of production and distribution, for is it not written, "Shall the ax boast itself against him that heweth therewith?".

He has the keys to lock up for a thousand years promised Satan until he gives him one last chance to gain a few more souls during the season and the end, where those who were equal in their temporal things and this not grudgingly are gathered up and taken into heaven and those who still refuse to be equal in their temporal things and this not grudgingly are gathered up and cast away into their own place and the earth shall be burnt with fire.

Good to hear and see and know the voice of God given to us and hearken unto his voice dilligently, and be equal in our temporal things and this not grudgingly. ♡ ♡

Dear George,

I am a better friend and fellow servant to these Twelve and Seventy Shepherds than you and they may yet realize.

I am not here to scatter nor to make money nor to collect any following for myself.

I post all my postings with just my right thumb hopefully to enlighten and possibly get others to do their own personal book report upon all the things Jesus Christ has said to do, and all the ways Jesus Christ has said to be like, and all the things Jesus Christ has said to know.

Anyone who has been following my posts knows I am willing to give everything away to the poor and needy among us. I am not yet right nor ready in my heart to face angry individuals that may wish to take my life and return pure love and charity and forgiveness and loving kindness as I ought to be able to. But I know that much fasting and prayer is needed as yet to prepare myself for this test.

I have testified of Jesus Christ and his words continually notwithstanding my shortcomings and wretchedness.

I know I should fast and pray mightily that my words would be more in tune with the spirit of Jesus Christ and for this I do apologize.

I love each and every single one of you to the best of my ability and hope and pray for the day when my heart can become pure.

I wish for the good welfare of all your souls and for your happiness as well. ♡ ♡

May God bless us all in the redemption of Zion upon this earth soon. ♡ ♡

Muerte Rosa wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:

coachmarc wrote:Robin Hood, are you saying that for four generations after Christ visited the Nephites, they were practicing communism when they voluntarily had all things common?

Yes, of course.
Don't fall into the trap of equating communism with Soviet style totalitarian socialism; which resembles communism in rhetoric only.

Is that What they teach you guys over there?

Nope.
I've got a brain and I can read, and I can reason for myself.
Forgive me, but I find most Americans are brainwashed on this issue.

Robert Sinclair
As that well known Nike commercial goes

Just Do It!

or are you

All hat and no Cowboy

?

Regards,

George Clay

I will have many witnesses on my behalf at the judgment bar of Christ and I have yet to produce many more fruits meet for my own personal repentance at his judgment bar hopefully before I go the way of all the earth.

I am currently working on getting covenants and deeds into the hands of as many as I can in my area over the coming years. And just need some help from Senator Orrin Hatch and Senator Ron Wyden to not have these poor Saints face tax penalties for receiving such.

Time will tell. ♡ ♡