LDS Freedom Forum

I teach the priest in my ward. Last week I prepared the lesson in Come Follow Me (curriculum for the youth) on "What are the Roles of the Holy Ghost." Here's a link to the lesson.

As a general courtesy, I always review the scriptures in the lesson outlines, so that I can see what they feel I should present.
I was flabbergasted when the first scripture in the lesson was:

John 14:16–27 (The Comforter can teach us and bring all things to our remembrance)

Here is the scripture for those interested:

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Keep in mind, Joseph has this to say:

John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.

I fully recognize that Jesus does speak of the Holy Ghost in verse 26, but all the verses prior to that speak of "another comforter" and a personal visit from the Father and the Son. How many lessons this month will be taught throughout the world that those scripture refer to the Holy Ghost and the youth will never be taught about the Second Comforter. It saddened me.

I feel your sadness. How anyone can defend the change in the footnotes is beyond me. I expect the usual suspects to come along and do so in 3...2...1...

Telling teenagers not to Google something is about as effective as telling a 4-year-old not to put a bean up his nose.
:))

Denver is a lot of things and he admits as much, but the book, The Second Comforter is not. That book is worth its weight in gold.

I thought you said "that is full of crap," meaning the book, or at the very least that he wrote it. No sweat off my back, though.

Muerte Rosa wrote:I told them why. I told them its a good thing..as good of a thing as you could hope for. But somebody wrote a book about it with that title...that is totally full of crap. Then i got the stink eye from my husband. Oh well.

One thought is about the milk and the meat of the Gospel. In the missionary discussions, we teach the milk and continue to do so after converts are baptized. Then we teach more milk in the lessons on Sunday. The meat is something we have to be careful with and it has to be adapted to the understanding of the recipient as they may get confused, we may get confused talking about it and we may actually stray from the truth of the Gospel. I could teach you, at least I could a few years ago, about Fourier analysis. But if you didn't know about calculus or other fundamentals, you would get totally confused.

The second comforter is not a secret, even the D&C tells us it is possible to see Jesus face to face and understanding it is some of the meat of the Gospel. It's also necessary to understand that in verse 21 we should not take that so literal as to mean that if we are keeping a few commandments and repenting of the rest that God and Jesus will come and see us. Does it mean keeping all of the commandments? Does it mean keep a few commandments as long as you've repented of the rest? If that was the case we could expect a visit on Sunday after church when we've partaken of the sacrament, or even after our evening prayer before bed. It has to mean more.

Incidentally verse 16 says "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter", then in verse 17 Jesus says, "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you". so 16 and 17 is about the Holy Ghost.

When you are not prepared, the meat can be faith destroying, rather than faith promoting especially if not taught correctly. I dare say, especially with people who follow DS, that they could teach things that are the views of DS, rather than the Gospel. I wouldn't want that and I am sure many many parents would not want that either.

Ironically, receiving the SC is milk, IMHO. The problem is that the bottle was put way back in the bottom shelf of the fridge. But if one simply reads what Joseph Smith wrote, it's all there. The SC by DS, though, could arguably be considered the cliff notes of the Book of Mormon, which, being the most correct book on earth, gives us crystal clear instructions on how to "come closer to Christ than any other book."

Muerte Rosa wrote:

coachmarc wrote:I thought you said "that is full of crap," meaning the book, or at the very least that he wrote it. No sweat off my back, though.

Muerte Rosa wrote:I told them why. I told them its a good thing..as good of a thing as you could hope for. But somebody wrote a book about it with that title...that is totally full of crap. Then i got the stink eye from my husband. Oh well.

Correct usage of "who" rather than "that" would clear up the ambiguity.

coachmarc wrote:Ironically, receiving the SC is milk, IMHO.

I think from what you have said, you have read the second comforter and have gained a lot of knowledge plus I think from memory you are an RM and have been in the church many years. You and i from all of our years have gained a lot of knowledge, probably searched out speakers like Ludlow, Skousen, Nibley and other scholars of the church and gained a wealth of knowledge in comparison to a new member or even many who have been members for quite a few years.

To us, it may seem like milk and I really learnt about the 2nd comforter on my mission but at the beginning, when we were baptized, a proper understanding of the 2nd comforter may not seem like milk, in fact it may have seemed a daunting task to understand it and what is required.

1 cor 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

In the church we teach the milk and I guess we will until the church as a whole is ready for meat.

mhewett wrote:

coachmarc wrote:Ironically, receiving the SC is milk, IMHO.

I think from what you have said, you have read the second comforter and have gained a lot of knowledge plus I think from memory you are an RM and have been in the church many years. You and i from all of our years have gained a lot of knowledge, probably searched out speakers like Ludlow, Skousen, Nibley and other scholars of the church and gained a wealth of knowledge in comparison to a new member or even many who have been members for quite a few years.

To us, it may seem like milk and I really learnt about the 2nd comforter on my mission but at the beginning, when we were baptized, a proper understanding of the 2nd comforter may not seem like milk, in fact it may have seemed a daunting task to understand it and what is required.

1 cor 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

In the church we teach the milk and I guess we will until the church as a whole is ready for meat.

Well, when Paul or other apostles traveled to Corinth or any other city where planets and fictional gods are worshiped, perhaps meat for them was what milk is for us. We grew up believing in Jesus Christ, who taught us that we should teach nothing save it be faith and repentance unto baptism. I posit that receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, C&E and the SC are fundamental principles to that commandment. The Holy Ghost teaches us what to do. Christ taught His own disciples these things. And if we distill the Book of Mormon into the most fundamental principles, this is what we get. And we have example after example in Nephi, Abinadi, all the way through to the bro. of Jared and Moroni.

Now that I think about it, 2 Nephi chapters 31 and 32 would be all we really needed. It is all summed up in those two chapters.

Even the first comforter doesn't get much attention these days.

We only need the comforter. 005. The prophet.

Muerte Rosa wrote:

TannerG wrote:Even the first comforter doesn't get much attention these days.

What a load Tanner. [-(

Muerte, you would be surprised. The first thing I was told in my first district meeting on the mission was that the spirit was for goleiros (a mission slang term for elders who can't baptize).

I asked a friend, "What if the Hoy Ghost reveals to me something that the brethren haven't taught or contradicts something they have?" His answer, "if that were even possible, heaven help us."

I have more examples upon request.

The doctrine of Christ emphasizes the role of the Holy Ghost. It is through the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost that a person receives remission of their sins and begins being guided on the path to the presence of The Lord, the second comforter.

How often does that get a mention? I believe in the importance of prophets, but I see people substituting the proper role of the Holy Ghost with the prophet. People talk like it is the prophet is is the final word and that it is the prophet alone who will see The Lord.

Jesus refers to those who love and follow him as his friends. He should be close to our thoughts - indeed, many of us promise each Sunday to "always remember him" - remember that?

I don't think it is so unusual to see Jesus (personally) -- if we include also daylight-visions or dreams as we should. Elder David B. Haight spoke of seeing Jesus, during a talk in General Conference.

Many have seen him and rejoice in the experience!
I testify that he lives!
See also D&C 76.

Interesting. I wonder how many of them did a search for the book.

Muerte Rosa wrote:I told them why. I told them its a good thing..as good of a thing as you could hope for. But somebody wrote a book about it with that title...that is totally full of crap. Then i got the stink eye from my husband. Oh well.

Lizzy60 wrote:Telling teenagers not to Google something is about as effective as telling a 4-year-old not to put a bean up his nose.
:))

Muerte Rosa wrote:

Steve Clark wrote: Correct usage of "who" rather than "that" would clear up the ambiguity.

Oh shut up...who asked you anyways?

A little testy today I've noticed. Have a flower, maybe you'll feel better. @};-

We are so ripe for destruction...

POINT #1

mhewett wrote:Incidentally verse 16 says "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter", then in verse 17 Jesus says, "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you". so 16 and 17 is about the Holy Ghost.

D&C 93 wrote:8 Therefore, in the beginning the Word was, for he was the Word, even the messenger of salvation— 9 The light and the Redeemer of the world; the Spirit of truth, who came into the world, because the world was made by him, and in him was the life of men and the light of men.

11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.

switching speakers
18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John. 19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness. ...

21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; 22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn. 23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;

26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;

Point #2

Coachmarc wrote:Ironically, receiving the SC is milk

mhewett wrote: a proper understanding of the 2nd comforter may not seem like milk

BroJones wrote:many of us promise each Sunday to "always remember him"

Perhaps we have so completely wrested the scriptures that we miss the plain meaning:

D&C 93 wrote: 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

What other than the list of todos in this verse (above) do we purport to teach each other in church?

Whose spirit do we want to always be with us like HE was with the brother of Jared? How many times have you "amen'd" this one but not considered the milk?

Moroni 4&5 wrote: 3 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it; that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him, and keep his commandments which he hath given them, that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

2 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee, in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

Moroni 7 wrote:48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

Which appearance was that in this sermon that Moroni cut and pasted into the record right at the end? (see below)

D&C 130 wrote:3 John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.

Below here is the same appearance (personal).

2 Nephi 32 wrote: 5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do. 6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

And again ... said in plainness so plain that you wonder in what manner was Moroni suggesting we seek him?

Ether 12 wrote: 39 And then shall ye know that I have seen Jesus, and that he hath talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another in mine own language, concerning these things; 40 And only a few have I written, because of my weakness in writing. 41 And now, I would commend you to seek this Jesus of whom the prophets and apostles have written, that the grace of God the Father, and also the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of them, may be and abide in you forever. Amen.

Again things we purport to teach everyone to do resulting in what?

D&C 88 wrote: 63 Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.... 66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.... 68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.

And again we purport to teach people as our mission to "come unto Christ" ... but it is some sort of vague ambiguous thing ... I know because I received these philosophies of men mingled with scripture. I already demonstrated from Ether 12 what manner in which Moroni expected you to encounter Christ.

Moroni 10 wrote:32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

I need not list all the scriptural exhortations that you ALL MUST COME UNTO CHRIST... ??? If we can't understand the one, singular most important doctrine ... and the only one Christ is teaching ... then:

Isaiah 28 wrote: 9 ¶Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

Action Item:
Please anyone reading this... Please if you have been initiated into our temple rites... sit down and list ALL the places where you encounter scripture in your lives. Rank them by the amount of scripture discussed with other men and women and related teachings. I think that you will be surprised at the shortness of the list and all the sources where you are likely to see scripture mingled with the philosophies of men. Scripture is conspicuously absent from our world except for a few striking sources (other than LDSFF) these days. The temple rite WARNS YOU. Take it seriously.

2 Nephi 32 wrote: 7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

Muerte Rosa wrote:

Steve Clark wrote: Correct usage of "who" rather than "that" would clear up the ambiguity.

Oh shut up...who asked you anyways?

Someone has to police the grammar police. ;)

superdan wrote:We are so ripe for destruction...

a bit melodramatic there Superdan, I was almost persuaded to agree with you fully on the point of the 'Spirit of truth' until I read a bit further in John. Now I can accept that the 'Spirit of truth' can refer to Jesus, you've pointed out where it says that so I have no problem with what you said on that subject. In chapter 16 of John however, Jesus speaks about the Holy Ghost, the comforter who would not come until Jesus had gone. (John 16:7) Then Jesus speaks about what the Holy Ghost would do and then tells the disciples that he would tell them more but they were unable to bear it at that time. (John 16:8-12)

Lets then look at verse 13 and 14 where Jesus is speaking,

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

In 13, Jesus testifies that the spirit of truth is the Holy Ghost, he specifically names the Holy Ghost as the 'spirit of truth'. It seems obvious that he is talking about someone else (v14) and not Himself as the Spirit of Truth.

So in conclusion, it seems to me that the "Spirit of Truth" can refer to Jesus Christ and it can also refer to the Holy Ghost. What are your thoughts?

"

I'm not sure how it can be more plain. He defines himself as THE Spirit of Truth in D&C 93:26. It's a name title Christ plainly claims. If you want to turn away from that information then it's up to you. In D&C 93 Christ plainly discloses that he is elaborating on the record of John. He mentions John over and over hoping that you'll want to understand the fullness of John's message.

D&C 88:1-4 sheds light on this other comforter. John 14:16-17 IS referring to Christ. He positions it as HIS PROMISE ... He being the Holy Spirit of Promise. Another name title.

Christ speaking:

D&C 88 wrote: 3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John. 4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;

You need to realize that the doctrine of Christ is to receive the Holy Ghost THEN HIM. ... then Jesus will teach you about receiving the Father (the fullness). The baptismal prayer teaches it ... in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father save through Him.

Hence as you read in John 16 see that he is teaching His doctrine there.

John 16 wrote:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Make what you want of it. I think in v13 Jesus has moved on from talking about the Holy Ghost (see John 16:7-8) to talking about the personal appearing he will make when they have walked the path that leads to LIFE. I think it's fair to say that YHWH/Jehovah can speak of himself in the 3rd person if he wants. And in this case it makes perfect sense considering that he is Jesus tabernacled in the flesh and considering the order of the encounters/receptions as you seek the fullness. (Holy Ghost / Christ / Father) He says he shall not speak of himself. See 2 Nephi 32 5-6 again. When he shall appear to you in the flesh do what he says... You'll then receive the father if you observe to do the things Christ tells you to do. (He shall not speak of himself ... he will show you things to come.)

The reason the early church apostatized was due to a concept called the failed "parousia" (failed appearing / coming / being with) ... They confused the personal appearing with the second coming. Christ taught it much. We believe the bible as far as it is translated correctly.

Dan, I said i accept what you said as far as the Spirit of truth and the identity being Jesus. I simply pointed out what it says a bit further in john which indicates that the Holy Ghost may also be known as the Spirit of truth.

I know the perspective you are coming and whether Jesus or the Holy Ghost or both are known as the spirit of truth is not something that will rip at my testimony cause a major problem for me, it's not a big issue, it's not an issue at all. But we can disagree a bit, I accept what you say but also accept it may be the Holy Ghost too. The scriptures to me indicate it could be either or both. After all, the Holy Ghost witnesses of truth, in that sense it could be known as the spirit of truth couldn't it, in a way, it stands to reason.

Muerte Rosa wrote:

Steve Clark wrote:

Muerte Rosa wrote: Oh shut up...who asked you anyways?

Someone has to police the grammar police. ;)

I live in utah. Grammar is different here. ;)

So does Steve... but I've never heard him talk that way... :-\

Dan, thank you for your excellent posts. I'm going to use excerpts from one for a "thing" I'm doing this weekend.

mhewett wrote:One thought is about the milk and the meat of the Gospel. In the missionary discussions, we teach the milk and continue to do so after converts are baptized. Then we teach more milk in the lessons on Sunday. The meat is something we have to be careful with and it has to be adapted to the understanding of the recipient as they may get confused, we may get confused talking about it and we may actually stray from the truth of the Gospel.

I completely agree that a foundation needs be built. But this should be pretty basic ideas. As coach said, the Book of Mormon deals with it pretty early on.

When is the topic appropriate to teach? Why hasn't there been a Sunday school Lesson on it. If someone isn't ready for it, there is a gospel principals class that could help them feel more comfortable. Some people have been regularly attending their various church meetings for 20, 30, 40 years and have never been taught the idea and now with correlation, it'll never be brought up, within our own lesson manuals.

Go ahead and try and research the "Second Comforter" at lds.org and see how kind of detail you can glean. It's pretty sparse? And it gives me a very incomplete idea. For a church that is 180 years old and relies on continuing revelation, why does it feel like we are taking steps backwards, covering the light instead of letting it shine. One would think a solid lesson or two could come of it.

To be fair, the lds.org does have this to say:

COMFORTER
See also Holy Ghost; Jesus Christ
The scriptures speak of two Comforters. The first is the Holy Ghost (John 14:26–27; Moro. 8:26; D&C 21:9; 42:17; 90:11). The Second Comforter is the Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:18, 21, 23). When someone obtains the Second Comforter, Jesus Christ will appear to him from time to time, will reveal the Father, and will teach him face to face (D&C 130:3).

I remember finding out about Calling and Election on my mission, but we only spoke about it with hushed undertones and in secret, as if was some great mystery that no one else knew. This topic and idea should be more freely shared,