LDS Freedom Forum

mhewett wrote:...I simply pointed out what it says a bit further in john which indicates that the Holy Ghost may also be known as the Spirit of truth. ... I accept what you say but also accept it may be the Holy Ghost too. The scriptures to me indicate it could be either or both. After all, the Holy Ghost witnesses of truth, in that sense it could be known as the spirit of truth couldn't it, in a way, it stands to reason.

Mhewett: Thanks for your insight. My tone was abrupt and sounds overbearing. I apologize if it was at all offensive. Here are some thoughts, but of course take them for what they're worth... just my thoughts. I gather that you are well informed. Perhaps this is more for others reading ... lurking.

There is something very important about names and name titles. Think about how heaven names things. Most names in English have root in other languages where they meant things. Dani-el means God is judge in Hebrew. So if you were to call me in Hebrew, you would always have been saying to me, "God is judge." God is judge, come to dinner... hurry! Isaiah named his boys "Destruction is imminent" and "A remnant shall return." They must have thought him an odd ball. Every time their name was said the point was made. YHWH/Jehovah has many name titles. They are all descriptive of his office and function relative to our progression. Savior, Redeemer, Lamb of God, Lion of Judah, Righteousness, Beloved, Salvation, Lord of Lords, King of Kings etc.

I think it's important to make the distinction between Christ and the Holy Ghost here because seeking The Spirit of Truth is very important. It's important relative to our eternal progression. Some people in this world (a small minority) seem drawn to truth and others don't. Some are drawn with varying degrees of intensity; some at all costs. Oh say what is truth ... ? This is a unique forum. Many here have been awakened in some way. Most of us set up boundaries and limit to what extent we are willing to make our minds travel in the pursuit of truth.

In our LDS culture we teach as the early Catholic church did that you must get certain ordinances to be saved. (Google the catholic 7 sacraments) Even though the language of those ordinances teaches that something more is required than just the ordinance I can say without hesitation that the predominant teaching is to get your ordinances and help others through the "covenant path" (I.e. get their ordinances done.) And that is good enough so long as you stay faithful to the church. All the while we are accepting the blueprint as if it is the actual building. This is damnation; a stopping of progression. I know others will argue that this is not the case and that they see the more unspoken teachings discussed appropriately. I must disagree. I see them disregarded. I see definitions changed. I see gross darkness. What we take for milk in the church is thin broth, regurgitation ... and not much of it. We know not who we worship nor do we know how to do it.

D&C 93 wrote: 19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

So the intensity of my response was mainly a lament that most people (not necessarily you) are living in darkness. We are damned because we do not understand what is required for our progression. We MUST seek The Spirit of Truth and in reality know Him. There is a sermon right there in that name title about to what length they might stretch searching truth no matter the cost and consequence. But groupthink and perceived temporal safety prevail and we tell each other to stay in the boat and follow mortal leaders at all cost. It is by definition damning doctrine.

When Jesus gave up his life willingly on the cross and then took it up again, he then ascended back upon high and received greater glory. He became like The Father.

D&C 93 wrote:23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

This state of being is an attribute of God. Truth is continually before Him.

D&C 130 wrote:7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.

D&C 93:23 alludes to the idea that the Father was filling the role of the Spirit of Truth in the beginning. If others desire to read it a different way that's fine. Everyone is welcome to their interpretation. I shouldn't be argumentative about it.

Revelation 3 wrote:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The above quotation hopefully is giving the reader a sense of the goal of their progression... to also become The Spirit of Truth (or one with it).

Moses 6 wrote: 60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.

So Moses 6 could be read to justify your viewpoint that the Holy Ghost is The Spirit of Truth... but what is it that "maketh alive all things?" "hath all power according to wisdom mercy, truth, justice, judgement?" One of Christ's name titles is Comforter. And what is the "blood" by which you are sanctified prior to this gift that abides in you?

(The context of all these scriptures is obviously very important. Hopefully this commentary only creates more questions so that people will go read them and learn Truth from the source.)

I find this exchange in Ether to be striking. The Bro of Jared had already conversed with God, witnessed miracles, crossed the wilderness, built barges etc. etc. etc. And after seeing the Lord light up 16 stones with his finger, this is the exchange. (Verse 11 is what ought to puzzle us. I don't think it's a rhetorical question. Because he had far greater, perhaps unbelievable things to show him.)

... Sawest thou more than this? 10 And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me.

11 And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

And from that point the Bro of Jared had HIS spirit to always be with him. Is the Holy Ghost in that office yet? Or is it later in his/her progression? (Reference: Lectures on Faith 7)

Seek this Jesus...

Ok ... way too long. My best regards. I appreciate your comments and kind tone.

jockeybox wrote:
Keep in mind, Joseph has this to say:

John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.

I fully recognize that Jesus does speak of the Holy Ghost in verse 26, but all the verses prior to that speak of "another comforter" and a personal visit from the Father and the Son. How many lessons this month will be taught throughout the world that those scripture refer to the Holy Ghost and the youth will never be taught about the Second Comforter. It saddened me.

How come you do not list the actual source for the quote that starts "John 14:23" above? It seems to me that if you properly notated the quote it would eliminate any concerns that the church fails to address proper understanding of the material since this Doctrine and Covenants verse is readily available to all who accept personal responsibility for their education by and with the spirit. On the surface it seems disingenuous to not be clear and then to cast dispersions on the correlation folks. I do not understand your approach.

brlenox wrote:

jockeybox wrote:
Keep in mind, Joseph has this to say:

John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.

I fully recognize that Jesus does speak of the Holy Ghost in verse 26, but all the verses prior to that speak of "another comforter" and a personal visit from the Father and the Son. How many lessons this month will be taught throughout the world that those scripture refer to the Holy Ghost and the youth will never be taught about the Second Comforter. It saddened me.

How come you do not list the actual source for the quote that starts "John 14:23" above? It seems to me that if you properly notated the quote it would eliminate any concerns that the church fails to address proper understanding of the material since this Doctrine and Covenants verse is readily available to all who accept personal responsibility for their education by and with the spirit. On the surface it seems disingenuous to not be clear and then to cast dispersions on the correlation folks. I do not understand your approach.

Sorry. When I copied and pasted it from my phone I didn't include the d&c reference, for the very reason you listed: is was readily available. I didn't think I was misleading. I assumed most were familiar with it on this site.

My concern is that the lesson manual teaches the "other comforter" is the Holy Ghost. Joseph smith clearly states it is a personal visitation from Christ.

Again, I apologize if I confused you or anyone else.

jockeybox wrote:I completely agree that a foundation needs be built. But this should be pretty basic ideas. As coach said, the Book of Mormon deals with it pretty early on.

When is the topic appropriate to teach? Why hasn't there been a Sunday school Lesson on it. If someone isn't ready for it, there is a gospel principals class that could help them feel more comfortable. Some people have been regularly attending their various church meetings for 20, 30, 40 years and have never been taught the idea and now with correlation, it'll never be brought up, within our own lesson manuals.

Go ahead and try and research the "Second Comforter" at lds.org and see how kind of detail you can glean. It's pretty sparse? And it gives me a very incomplete idea. For a church that is 180 years old and relies on continuing revelation, why does it feel like we are taking steps backwards, covering the light instead of letting it shine. One would think a solid lesson or two could come of it.

To be fair, the lds.org does have this to say:

COMFORTER
See also Holy Ghost; Jesus Christ
The scriptures speak of two Comforters. The first is the Holy Ghost (John 14:26–27; Moro. 8:26; D&C 21:9; 42:17; 90:11). The Second Comforter is the Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:18, 21, 23). When someone obtains the Second Comforter, Jesus Christ will appear to him from time to time, will reveal the Father, and will teach him face to face (D&C 130:3).

I remember finding out about Calling and Election on my mission, but we only spoke about it with hushed undertones and in secret, as if was some great mystery that no one else knew. This topic and idea should be more freely shared,

I taught the same lesson about the HG to the Teachers on Sunday. Here is my dilemma. How do I teach a group of 14/15 year olds about the second comforter when they do not understand who the first comforter is? They do not know who he is, how he works, nor the difference between the influence or power of the HG and the person of the HG. In truth I found even some of these aspects hard to teach because adults in the room did/do not understand the difference and began to question in their hearts when I spoke certain truths about the first comforter.


What about the baptism of fire and the HG? Shouldn't this also come before the second comforter? I had BFHG on my list but couldn't get to it. I had to spend most of the time telling them about why they needed the spirit in the lives, clarifying the effect of the HG (intelligence) vs the results (love, joy, peace, etc), and distinguishing between the power vs the personage. At the end of the day, I just don't think they were, or are yet, ready for deeper truths. They need to understand the first comforter. They need to know when they feel the spirit and how often it occurs. (I got the vibe that they expect him only in instances when they need to be saved from danger or some other miraculous occurrence.)

Yesterday, I felt like I was trying to share with them some of the most important truths of this life with them, and they would not truly listen. I can understand a little of what Joseph Smith felt when he said, "There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand" (HC 6:184-185).

janderich wrote:

jockeybox wrote:I completely agree that a foundation needs be built. But this should be pretty basic ideas. As coach said, the Book of Mormon deals with it pretty early on.

When is the topic appropriate to teach? Why hasn't there been a Sunday school Lesson on it. If someone isn't ready for it, there is a gospel principals class that could help them feel more comfortable. Some people have been regularly attending their various church meetings for 20, 30, 40 years and have never been taught the idea and now with correlation, it'll never be brought up, within our own lesson manuals.

Go ahead and try and research the "Second Comforter" at lds.org and see how kind of detail you can glean. It's pretty sparse? And it gives me a very incomplete idea. For a church that is 180 years old and relies on continuing revelation, why does it feel like we are taking steps backwards, covering the light instead of letting it shine. One would think a solid lesson or two could come of it.

To be fair, the lds.org does have this to say:

COMFORTER
See also Holy Ghost; Jesus Christ
The scriptures speak of two Comforters. The first is the Holy Ghost (John 14:26–27; Moro. 8:26; D&C 21:9; 42:17; 90:11). The Second Comforter is the Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:18, 21, 23). When someone obtains the Second Comforter, Jesus Christ will appear to him from time to time, will reveal the Father, and will teach him face to face (D&C 130:3).

I remember finding out about Calling and Election on my mission, but we only spoke about it with hushed undertones and in secret, as if was some great mystery that no one else knew. This topic and idea should be more freely shared,

I taught the same lesson about the HG to the Teachers on Sunday. Here is my dilemma. How do I teach a group of 14/15 year olds about the second comforter when they do not understand who the first comforter is? They do not know who he is, how he works, nor the difference between the influence or power of the HG and the person of the HG. In truth I found even some of these aspects hard to teach because adults in the room did/do not understand the difference and began to question in their hearts when I spoke certain truths about the first comforter.


What about the baptism of fire and the HG? Shouldn't this also come before the second comforter? I had BFHG on my list but couldn't get to it. I had to spend most of the time telling them about why they needed the spirit in the lives, clarifying the effect of the HG (intelligence) vs the results (love, joy, peace, etc), and distinguishing between the power vs the personage. At the end of the day, I just don't think they were, or are yet, ready for deeper truths. They need to understand the first comforter. They need to know when they feel the spirit and how often it occurs. (I got the vibe that they expect him only in instances when they need to be saved from danger or some other miraculous occurrence.)

Yesterday, I felt like I was trying to share with them some of the most important truths of this life with them, and they would not truly listen. I can understand a little of what Joseph Smith felt when he said, "There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand" (HC 6:184-185).

I didn't present anything about the second comforter, as this specific lesson was about the Holy Ghost that is inside each of them and Baptism of Fire and the Holy Ghost. My lesson wasn't intended to teach anything about the second comforter.

My real issue is that the churches correlation department suggested some scriptures that are clearly (in my opinion) about the second comforter and telling me that this is the Holy Ghost. Most member won't notice those differences, as they'll never really be taught this stuff and as a result, kids will likely not know about this topic.

Sorry if I confused you in the matter. I too would only present the second comforter if proper groundwork has been laid out in advance.

Steve Clark wrote:Correct usage of "who" rather than "that" would clear up the ambiguity.

Muerte Rosa wrote:Oh shut up...who asked you anyways?

A Random Phrase wrote:A little testy today I've noticed. Have a flower, maybe you'll feel better. @};-

Muerte Rosa wrote:I really wasn't i was joking.

Okay. Well, you can keep the flower anyway.

jockeybox wrote:I remember finding out about Calling and Election on my mission, but we only spoke about it with hushed undertones and in secret, as if was some great mystery that no one else knew. This topic and idea should be more freely shared,

It was talked about in the 1970s and 1980s - even in some general conferences (in the 70s, at least). I took an institute class around 1985. The name of the class was something along the lines of "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith." The book was the textbook and the curriculum focused on having one's calling and election made sure. In those days, we had some "rogue" Sunday School teachers who would dwell on the mysteries when they taught. That was before correlation "took them down."

great thread jockeybox. I missed this one due to travels last week. on a positive note, you can read the words of the third comforter here on the forum most days. literally..." the third comforter".