LDS Freedom Forum

Lincoln and FDR are usually at the top of most lists.

I think they should be at or near the bottom.

Give me a Grover Cleveland any day ... or better yet, it really shouldn't matter if the principles of a decentralized constitutional republic were really adhered to.

Muerte Rosa wrote:Lincoln at the bottom? Why?

Grabbed power for the federal government and subverted state rights. Trampled the constitution.

My vote for best president is George Washington.

He single handedly squashed the idea of a voluntary union, sovereignty of the states and the principle of peaceful secession.

He spearheaded an aggressive war against his own countrymen to the tune of 620,000 battlefield casualties all in the name of "saving the union."

He presided over war crimes against southern civilians all in the name of "saving the union".

It was really nothing more than defending Northern interests.

Just to start.

Best was Millard Fillmore, because he didn't really do much, and his term was short.

Muerte Rosa wrote:

ajax wrote:He single handedly squashed the idea of a voluntary union, sovereignty of the states and the principle of peaceful secession.

He spearheaded an aggressive war against his own countrymen to the tune of 620,000 battlefield casualties all in the name of "saving the union."

He presided over war crimes against southern civilians all in the name of "saving the union".

It was really nothing more than defending Northern interests.

Just to start.

By northern interests do you mean, being against slavery?

No, mostly economic and political. Most Northerners didn't care a whit about the slaves, Lincoln included.

Best : George Washington, hands down.
Worst: Woodrow Wilson - Barak Hussein Obama. All of them crooks and Gadiantons.

Muerte Rosa wrote:

ajax wrote:He single handedly squashed the idea of a voluntary union, sovereignty of the states and the principle of peaceful secession.

He spearheaded an aggressive war against his own countrymen to the tune of 620,000 battlefield casualties all in the name of "saving the union."

He presided over war crimes against southern civilians all in the name of "saving the union".

It was really nothing more than defending Northern interests.

Just to start.

By northern interests do you mean, being against slavery?

The charge has been made by some historians that Lincoln did the bidding of major banking and business interests in the Northern states. At the time of the civil war the industrisation of the United States was starting to take hold and for the most part that was taking place in the Northern states where the mills for the industrial production of cotton were located.

Had the southern states become independent, irrespective of the continuance of slavery, the northern business interests would have suffered as they would have then had to compete with industrial interests in England, France and Germany which were also developing industrial cotton production at the time for the raw materials that the south could produce. By keeping the southern states in the union Lincoln insured that the northern industrialists would continue to have an uninterrupted supply of cotton and did not have to compete with the emerging industrial nations of Europe.

The idea of the civil war being primarily about slavery came late in the debate. The original issue was a matter of a state's right to withdraw from the union that they voluntarily entered. This issue has never been settled in U.S. law to this day. It was only when support for the war began to wain in the north that Lincoln and other members of his administration turned it into a moral crusade about the liberation of the slaves. Even then he acted to free the slaves only in the states that were in rebellion. The Emancipation Proclamation did not, for example free the slaves in Delaware, Maryland or other slaves states not in the Confederacy.

Muerte Rosa wrote:I like G Dub. He's hilarious. I like funny people.

You're mistaking "hilarious" for "intelligent" or "competent" or ""insert your favorite complimentary word here".

Thomas wrote:My vote for best president is George Washington.

+1

Worst? I don't know....it all went downhill after Woodrow Wilson.

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence

Every President since Taft has been a Gadiaton.

I like William McKinley (Gadiantan assassinated) and Teddy Roosevelt's Sherman Anti-Trust Act.

Worst Andrew Jackson by far. He was murdering scum all the way.

Muerte Rosa wrote:I like G Dub. He's hilarious. I like funny people.

You mean in a Forest Gump/Three Stooges kind of way?

gkearney wrote:

Muerte Rosa wrote:

ajax wrote:He single handedly squashed the idea of a voluntary union, sovereignty of the states and the principle of peaceful secession.

He spearheaded an aggressive war against his own countrymen to the tune of 620,000 battlefield casualties all in the name of "saving the union."

He presided over war crimes against southern civilians all in the name of "saving the union".

It was really nothing more than defending Northern interests.

Just to start.

By northern interests do you mean, being against slavery?

The charge has been made by some historians that Lincoln did the bidding of major banking and business interests in the Northern states. At the time of the civil war the industrisation of the United States was starting to take hold and for the most part that was taking place in the Northern states where the mills for the industrial production of cotton were located.

Had the southern states become independent, irrespective of the continuance of slavery, the northern business interests would have suffered as they would have then had to compete with industrial interests in England, France and Germany which were also developing industrial cotton production at the time for the raw materials that the south could produce. By keeping the southern states in the union Lincoln insured that the northern industrialists would continue to have an uninterrupted supply of cotton and did not have to compete with the emerging industrial nations of Europe.

The idea of the civil war being primarily about slavery came late in the debate. The original issue was a matter of a state's right to withdraw from the union that they voluntarily entered. This issue has never been settled in U.S. law to this day. It was only when support for the war began to wain in the north that Lincoln and other members of his administration turned it into a moral crusade about the liberation of the slaves. Even then he acted to free the slaves only in the states that were in rebellion. The Emancipation Proclamation did not, for example free the slaves in Delaware, Maryland or other slaves states not in the Confederacy.

I love "Revisionist History" from either side. Lincoln was not the power monger some have put him out to be; he had the goal of keeping the United States intact. He did care about the slaves, although it was not his driving focus. Whether anyone likes it or not, the Civil War was all about slavery. Not necessarily in the sense of the entire North wanting to free slaves, but in the sense that two systems were head to head, and the economy and lifestyle of the South was slave-based, while the North was not. The very reason the South seceded way before Lincoln had the chance to do anything was that he had expressed anti-slavery rhetoric as part of the election, and was a Republican, which party was well known for opposing slavery and wanting free-market rather than forced slavery. Lincoln had no chance to do anything to Southern states to impose on their "states rights" to keep people as cattle; the South seceded first.

Lincoln's goal of keeping the Union intact was best expressed in his quote, "If I could keep the Union intact by not freeing one slave, I would do it. If I could keep it intact by freeing some slaves and not others, I would do it. If I could do it by freeing all slaves, I would do it." That is probably not an exact quote, but it expresses the thought well enough. My own opinion is that Lincoln was an honest, troubled, and somber man given a task by God that was almost insurmountable. He managed it very well. Had he lived through his second term, it is likely we would not have had the excesses and problems that ensued in the South from the Reconstruction Process. His plan had been to gradually integrate slaves into the world of freedom instead of simply expecting them to know how to manage in taking care of themselves and handling freedom they'd never had before.

Best president: probably Monroe.
Worst: Toss up between the current POTUS and Woodrow Wilson

Muerte Rosa wrote:

Thomas wrote:

Muerte Rosa wrote:I like G Dub. He's hilarious. I like funny people.

You mean in a Forest Gump/Three Stooges kind of way?

Forrest Gump maybe because he was actually really smart.

I thought you might say that.

I always had his back.

njb

shut
up
woman

n
j
b

lol

Desert Roses wrote:Lincoln's goal of keeping the Union intact was best expressed in his quote, "If I could keep the Union intact by not freeing one slave, I would do it. If I could keep it intact by freeing some slaves and not others, I would do it. If I could do it by freeing all slaves, I would do it." That is probably not an exact quote, but it expresses the thought well enough. My own opinion is that Lincoln was an honest, troubled, and somber man given a task by God that was almost insurmountable. He managed it very well. Had he lived through his second term, it is likely we would not have had the excesses and problems that ensued in the South from the Reconstruction Process. His plan had been to gradually integrate slaves into the world of freedom instead of simply expecting them to know how to manage in taking care of themselves and handling freedom they'd never had before.

I think Lincoln represented a complete usurpation of power and break down of common decency. Killing people to force them to stay in a situation they no longer want to stay in? The South simply wanted to leave. They didn't want to take over the Gov't or the north. Lincoln forced them to stay. This was not a civil war in the traditional sense of two sides fighting for sole control of the government. The South wanted to peacefully secede. Shake hands and wish them well.

Lincoln was the only leader who managed to get rid of slavery by the sword. The rest of the world pulled it off peacefully. He represents a complete failure IMO.

Irony is, we celebrate and support peaceful secessionists movements around the world, especially from the former Soviet satellite nations, yet we honor and deify the great crusher of secession at home. What is the Declaration of Independence but a secessionist document?

Kennedy is one of your bests for trying to get rid of the federal reserve through an executive order.

Obama is the worst without question. He has added more debt that the rest the presidents combined!

Best - Washington
Worst- FDR, Obama

Best washinton.

Notable president was Grover Cleveland who had the Most vetoes in two complete terms of (584) vetos.

Less laws the government makes the better in my opinion.

Worst Obama. Close second bush junior. But but we must also remember that since Woodrow Wilson we have had either president of Vice President who has been a member of the world banking cfr buildiberger cartel. So we haven't had much of a chance to get much but crap since they came into power in the early 1915 era.

AlbertaBronco wrote:Kennedy is one of your bests for trying to get rid of the federal reserve through an executive order.

Obama is the worst without question. He has added more debt that the rest the presidents combined!

I don't think he has caught up with Bush yet on that one.Bush still has the highest deficit spending. Let's not forget about the 800 billion Bush borrowed to bail out the banks three months before he left office. A lot Republican propaganda likes to credit Obama with the 2009;record deficit but it belongs to Bush. Three trillion if I am not mistaken for 2009 alone.

Lincoln and FDR: American Caesars
http://mises.org/library/lincoln-and-ro ... an-caesars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Did they manipulate the enemy into firing the first shot? This makes for interesting reading (Chapters 2 and 4)
http://mises.org/sites/default/files/Ce ... %20A_3.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Truman - mass murderer?