Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

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ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by ripliancum »

larsenb wrote:
JohnnyL wrote:Alma 22:29 :
And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of ALL the NORTHERN PARTS OF THE LAND, bordering on the wilderness, AT THE HEAD OF THE RIVER SIDON..."

It says the head of the river Sidon is way up in the "NORTHERN PARTS OF THE LAND", which suggests it begins there, so flows south.

1828 Webster: 18. The principal source of a stream; as the head of the Nile.

I see manipulation of content, not anything that shows it flowing north.
Actually, the argument that the land of Nephi is south of the land of Zarahemla and is higher in elevation than Zarahemla strongly implies that the River Sidon cannot go south. See the tail-end of this post.

Regarding your interpretation of Alma 22:29, here is my explanation of what the writer of that verse is actually saying, in my strongly held view:

Alma 22:27 goes a long way in clarifying this issue. Why?

Alma 22, Verse 27, describes the extent of King’s (Lamoni’s father) land as follows:

1. It extends from the sea on the east to the sea on the west.
2. It was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness.
3. The narrow strip of wilderness also ran from the eastern sea to the western sea.
4. It extended “round about” on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla”. Verse 28 explains this situation, where it says: “yea, [and they were] also on the west of the land of Zarahemla in the borders by the seashore. He is describing a wilderness along the west sea shore, which is NORTH of the narrow strip of wilderness that impinges on the western coastline and this wilderness is WEST of the land of Zarahemla.
5. He is further describing the east-west boundary by saying that it extends from the wilderness boundary west of Zarahemla and goes through the borders of Manti and by the head of the River Sidon, which has been placed in the narrow strip of east-west wilderness.

In Verse 29, the writer says many Lamanites were also on the eastern seashore. So, you get the sense of almost a horseshoe encirclement of the Land of Zarahemla.

Now, where this gets confusing is if you take ‘at the head of the river Sidon’ as an adjective clause (my terminology) further describing “all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness.

The alternative reading is to take these clauses as attribute lists describing the entire border encompassing Nephite possessions. I.e., they owned:

1. all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness (we have seen that there is already Lamanite occupied wilderness to the west of Zarahemla).
2. the boundary delimited by the head of the river Sidon and extending east to west.
3. the extension of this boundary round about on the wilderness side (to the west of Zarahemla).

This reading of 29 is very much in keeping with the several verses which say one goes up to the land of Nephi and down to the land of Zarahemla.

With the land of Nephi being to the south of the land of Zarahemla, this means you won’t be able to get a south-running Sidon to go uphill (baring a New Madrid-type earthquake).

Book of Mormon verses that use “go up to the land of Nephi” or “go up among the Lamanites”, “went up to”. . . from the land of Zarahemla:
Omni 1:27; 1:28; Mosiah 7:1; 7:2; 7:4; 8:2; 9:3; 28:1; 28:5; 28:6; 28:7; 28:9; 29:3; Alma 17:8; 20:2; 26:23; 47:1; Helaman 4:4;

Book of Mormon verses that use “go down to the land of Zarahemla”, or variant . . . from the Land of Nephi:
Alma 27:5; 27:9

there aren't as many clear passages containing “go down to the land of Zarahemla” . . . from the land of Nephi. However, there are several other passages where various people are “going down to Zarahemla”, clearly indicating the city of Zarahemla is situated relatively low down in the land of Zarahemla and certainly in relation to the land of Nephi.
When it comes to verse 28 its a perfect description of the plains Indians as the lived in tents. Meso American civilizations from what I know are not known to live in tents.
Verse 28 is in reference to the west border which the plain Indians would be west of Nauvoo or Zarahemla a good match. This verse talks about two borders along the shoreline one along Zarahemla being Lake Michigan and the other along the gulf coast. One of the mistakes you guys make is the statement about the forefathers. Its not refereeing to the Nephite forefathers which landed at first Inheritance but is referring to forefathers of the Lamanites specifically the Ishamealites. The land of Ishmeal is generally kept separate of the land of Nephi and is west of the Mississippi river. The Ishmealite fathers first Inheritance is in the west part of the land of Nephite along the gulf coast.

28 Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their (Lamanite) fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.

ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by ripliancum »

larsenb wrote:
JohnnyL wrote:Alma 22:29 :
And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of ALL the NORTHERN PARTS OF THE LAND, bordering on the wilderness, AT THE HEAD OF THE RIVER SIDON..."

It says the head of the river Sidon is way up in the "NORTHERN PARTS OF THE LAND", which suggests it begins there, so flows south.

1828 Webster: 18. The principal source of a stream; as the head of the Nile.

I see manipulation of content, not anything that shows it flowing north.
Actually, the argument that the land of Nephi is south of the land of Zarahemla and is higher in elevation than Zarahemla strongly implies that the River Sidon cannot go south. See the tail-end of this post.

Regarding your interpretation of Alma 22:29, here is my explanation of what the writer of that verse is actually saying, in my strongly held view:

Alma 22:27 goes a long way in clarifying this issue. Why?

Alma 22, Verse 27, describes the extent of King’s (Lamoni’s father) land as follows:

1. It extends from the sea on the east to the sea on the west.
2. It was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness.
3. The narrow strip of wilderness also ran from the eastern sea to the western sea.
4. It extended “round about” on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla”. Verse 28 explains this situation, where it says: “yea, [and they were] also on the west of the land of Zarahemla in the borders by the seashore. He is describing a wilderness along the west sea shore, which is NORTH of the narrow strip of wilderness that impinges on the western coastline and this wilderness is WEST of the land of Zarahemla.
5. He is further describing the east-west boundary by saying that it extends from the wilderness boundary west of Zarahemla and goes through the borders of Manti and by the head of the River Sidon, which has been placed in the narrow strip of east-west wilderness.

In Verse 29, the writer says many Lamanites were also on the eastern seashore. So, you get the sense of almost a horseshoe encirclement of the Land of Zarahemla.

Now, where this gets confusing is if you take ‘at the head of the river Sidon’ as an adjective clause (my terminology) further describing “all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness.

The alternative reading is to take these clauses as attribute lists describing the entire border encompassing Nephite possessions. I.e., they owned:

1. all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness (we have seen that there is already Lamanite occupied wilderness to the west of Zarahemla).
2. the boundary delimited by the head of the river Sidon and extending east to west.
3. the extension of this boundary round about on the wilderness side (to the west of Zarahemla).

This reading of 29 is very much in keeping with the several verses which say one goes up to the land of Nephi and down to the land of Zarahemla.

With the land of Nephi being to the south of the land of Zarahemla, this means you won’t be able to get a south-running Sidon to go uphill (baring a New Madrid-type earthquake).

Book of Mormon verses that use “go up to the land of Nephi” or “go up among the Lamanites”, “went up to”. . . from the land of Zarahemla:
Omni 1:27; 1:28; Mosiah 7:1; 7:2; 7:4; 8:2; 9:3; 28:1; 28:5; 28:6; 28:7; 28:9; 29:3; Alma 17:8; 20:2; 26:23; 47:1; Helaman 4:4;

Book of Mormon verses that use “go down to the land of Zarahemla”, or variant . . . from the Land of Nephi:
Alma 27:5; 27:9

there aren't as many clear passages containing “go down to the land of Zarahemla” . . . from the land of Nephi. However, there are several other passages where various people are “going down to Zarahemla”, clearly indicating the city of Zarahemla is situated relatively low down in the land of Zarahemla and certainly in relation to the land of Nephi.
To go up in the Book of Mormon means in elevation. The land of Nephi most populated areas are in the Hill of Kentucky and Tennessee. The river Sidon is in Zarahemla and the west part of the land of Nephi. The Land of Nephi is North and east of Zarahemla.

ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by ripliancum »

ripliancum wrote:
larsenb wrote:
JohnnyL wrote:Alma 22:29 :
And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of ALL the NORTHERN PARTS OF THE LAND, bordering on the wilderness, AT THE HEAD OF THE RIVER SIDON..."

It says the head of the river Sidon is way up in the "NORTHERN PARTS OF THE LAND", which suggests it begins there, so flows south.

1828 Webster: 18. The principal source of a stream; as the head of the Nile.

I see manipulation of content, not anything that shows it flowing north.
Actually, the argument that the land of Nephi is south of the land of Zarahemla and is higher in elevation than Zarahemla strongly implies that the River Sidon cannot go south. See the tail-end of this post.

Regarding your interpretation of Alma 22:29, here is my explanation of what the writer of that verse is actually saying, in my strongly held view:

Alma 22:27 goes a long way in clarifying this issue. Why?

Alma 22, Verse 27, describes the extent of King’s (Lamoni’s father) land as follows:

1. It extends from the sea on the east to the sea on the west.
2. It was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness.
3. The narrow strip of wilderness also ran from the eastern sea to the western sea.
4. It extended “round about” on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla”. Verse 28 explains this situation, where it says: “yea, [and they were] also on the west of the land of Zarahemla in the borders by the seashore. He is describing a wilderness along the west sea shore, which is NORTH of the narrow strip of wilderness that impinges on the western coastline and this wilderness is WEST of the land of Zarahemla.
5. He is further describing the east-west boundary by saying that it extends from the wilderness boundary west of Zarahemla and goes through the borders of Manti and by the head of the River Sidon, which has been placed in the narrow strip of east-west wilderness.

In Verse 29, the writer says many Lamanites were also on the eastern seashore. So, you get the sense of almost a horseshoe encirclement of the Land of Zarahemla.

Now, where this gets confusing is if you take ‘at the head of the river Sidon’ as an adjective clause (my terminology) further describing “all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness.

The alternative reading is to take these clauses as attribute lists describing the entire border encompassing Nephite possessions. I.e., they owned:

1. all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness (we have seen that there is already Lamanite occupied wilderness to the west of Zarahemla).
2. the boundary delimited by the head of the river Sidon and extending east to west.
3. the extension of this boundary round about on the wilderness side (to the west of Zarahemla).

This reading of 29 is very much in keeping with the several verses which say one goes up to the land of Nephi and down to the land of Zarahemla.

With the land of Nephi being to the south of the land of Zarahemla, this means you won’t be able to get a south-running Sidon to go uphill (baring a New Madrid-type earthquake).

Book of Mormon verses that use “go up to the land of Nephi” or “go up among the Lamanites”, “went up to”. . . from the land of Zarahemla:
Omni 1:27; 1:28; Mosiah 7:1; 7:2; 7:4; 8:2; 9:3; 28:1; 28:5; 28:6; 28:7; 28:9; 29:3; Alma 17:8; 20:2; 26:23; 47:1; Helaman 4:4;

Book of Mormon verses that use “go down to the land of Zarahemla”, or variant . . . from the Land of Nephi:
Alma 27:5; 27:9

there aren't as many clear passages containing “go down to the land of Zarahemla” . . . from the land of Nephi. However, there are several other passages where various people are “going down to Zarahemla”, clearly indicating the city of Zarahemla is situated relatively low down in the land of Zarahemla and certainly in relation to the land of Nephi.
When it comes to verse 28 its a perfect description of the plains Indians as the lived in tents. Meso American civilizations from what I know are not known to live in tents.
Verse 28 is in reference to the west border which the plain Indians would be west of Nauvoo or Zarahemla a good match. This verse talks about two borders along the shoreline one along Zarahemla being Lake Michigan and the other along the gulf coast. One of the mistakes you guys make is the statement about the forefathers. Its not refereeing to the Nephite forefathers which landed at first Inheritance but is referring to forefathers of the Lamanites specifically the Ishamealites. The land of Ishmeal is generally kept separate of the land of Nephi and is west of the Mississippi river. The Ishmealite fathers first Inheritance is in the west part of the land of Nephite along the gulf coast.

28 Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their (Lamanite) fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.
Verse 29 is referring to the North Most borders and the southern most borders its not placing the head of the river Sidon in the north countries. The River Sidon was a dumping place for bodies. Many battles were fought in the north countries but the bodies were always piled up never dumped in the river Sidon. As already mentioned the river Sidon never gets mentioned again after Alma chapter 50. Sidon was not in the north countries.
The nephites were surrounded there were Nephites in the East Wilderness New York and Pennsylvania area. Moroni clears out the Lamanites in these areas and build fortifications that still exist today and were commented on by the early settlers see link. This needed to be cleared out and fortified because it led into the land Desolation the Nephite retreat and also led into Bountiful.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ified.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I should also add guess what settlers found in the North countries and in areas away from the Mississippi (river sidon) Piles of bones. Indian legend confirm the extermination of a white race of Indian in the state of New York and the removal from the land of Nephi.

Hill Cumorah


At the final battles at the Hill Cumorah, nearly a quarter of a million Nephites were slaughtered. An untold number of Lamanites were also killed. Indian legend supports this great and terrible battle that caused the death of hundreds of thousands of people.


Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois Chief:


“From the earliest knowledge the white men have possessed of the country of western New York, the Painted Post has been noted as a geographical landmark. When first traversed by the white men, a large oaken post stood at the spot, which has retained the name to this day. It was painted in the Indian manner, and was guarded as a monument by the Indiana, who renewed it as often as it showed evidence of going to decay. Tradition says it was a monument of great antiquity, marking the spot of a great and bloody battle, according to some statements. According to others, it was erected to perpetuate the memory of some great war-chief.” (My opinion is the great Chief is Mormon I can’t prove it though) (Painted Post, New York is located about 70 miles away from Hill Cumorah) (Stone 1838 pg. 318)


In reference to Buffalo, New York in close proximity to what is the narrow neck of land and the Hill Cumorah:


“Tradition fixes upon this spot as the scene of the final and most bloody conflict between the Iroquois and the ”Gah-kwas” or Eries, — a tradition which has been supposed to derive some sanction from the number of fragments of decayed human bones which are scattered over the area.” (Squier 1849)

Mass Burial Pits and Battlegrounds
Two thirds of the Book of Mormon is about wars between the Lamanites and Nephites. Large bone pits and piles were found in the state of New York and other states. These large bone pits are supportive evidence of the battles that took place between Nephites and Lamanites.

In the last battles Mormon states that bodies of the Nephites were heaped into piles (Mormon 2:15).

New York State:

“It was called the “Bone Fort,” from the circumstance that the early settlers found within it a mound, six feet in height by thirty at the base, which was entirely made up of human bones slightly covered with earth… The popular opinion concerning this accumulation is, that it contained the bones of the slain, thus heaped together after some severe battle.” (Squier 1849)

Kentucky:

“Half a mile from this place, at the foot of the mountain, in a large cave full of human bones, perhaps several wagon loads; some of which are small, and others very large” (Haywood 1823 pg. 153)

New York State:

“The bones were of individuals of both sexes and of all ages. Among them were a few fetal bones. Many of the skulls bore marks of violence, leading to the belief that they were broken before burial.” (Squier 1849)

Illinois:

“Mr. Ramey, the owner of the mound, speaks about digging in one part of the field and finding heaps of bones eight feet deep, and says that the bones are everywhere present.” (Peet 1892 pg. 163)

New York State:

“Human bones have been discovered beneath the leaves; and in nearly every part of the trench skeletons of adults of both sexes, of children, and infants, have been found, covered only by the vegetable accumulations. They seem to have been thrown together promiscuously.” (Squier 1849)

New York State:

“Among them may be mentioned the “bone-pits,” or deposits of human bones. One is found near the village of Brownsville, on Black River. It is described as a pit, ten or twelve feet square, by perhaps four feet deep, in which are promiscuously heaped together a large number of human skeletons.” (Squier 1849)
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... s-and.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A White Race and its Extermination
One of the founding Native American DNA markers is a rare Caucasian dna marker found only in North American Indians. As to why this dna Marker is rare is best explained by Native American traditional legends and the Book of Mormon. This white race of Indian was exterminated off the face of North America leaving behind only a rare footprint on the North American continent.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... an_12.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Concerning Hattera Indians of North Carolina:


“These Hattera tell us, that several of their Ancestors were white People, and could talk in a Book, as we do; the Truth of which is confirmed by gray eyes being found frequently amongst these Indians, and no others.”
(John Lawson 1709 pg. 62)


The Nephites who I believe had Caucasian DNA were killed off by the Lamanites. The North American Indians have a legend of a foreign white race being completely killed or removed from certain areas.


Captain Brant Thayendanegea was a well-known Iroquois and Mohawk leader and Chief who sided with the British during the Revolutionary war. He was born of Iroquois parents who converted to Christianity. They gave him a Christian name Joseph Brant. The quote is from his biography:


“I was curious to learn in the course of my conversations with Captain Brant (Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois Chief), what information he could give me respecting the tumuli (mounds) which are found on and near the margin of the rivers and lakes, from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi. He stated, in reply, that the subject had long been agitated, but yet remained in some obscurity. A tradition, he said, prevailed among the different nations of Indians through-out that whole extensive range of country, and had been handed down time immemorial, that in an age long gone by, there came white men from a foreign country, and by consent of the Indians established trading-houses and settlements where these tumuli (mounds) are found. A friendly intercourse was continued for several years; many of the white men brought their wives, and had children born to them; and additions to their numbers were made yearly from their own country. These circumstances at length gave rise to jealousies among the Indians, and fears began to be entertained in regard to the increasing numbers, wealth, and ulterior views of the new comers; apprehending that becoming strong, they might one day seize upon the country as their own. A secret council, composed of the chiefs of all the different nations from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi, was therefore convoked; the result of which, after long deliberation, was a resolution that on a certain night designated for that purpose, all their white neighbors, men, women and children, should be exterminated.“
(Stone 1838 pg. 484)


“Here the Indians tell us there was a war in early times, against an Indian town, traces of which are yet visible, corn pits, etc. This was inhabited by a distinct nation, neither Iroquois nor Delawares, who spoke a peculiar language, and were called Tehotitachse, against them the Five Nations warred and routed them out; the Cayugas for a time held a number captive, but the nation and the language are now exterminated and extinct.”
(Murray 1908 pg. 46)


Natchez Indians of Mississippi, in reference to an ancient race of Indian who preceded them and eventually were defeated:


“I did not fail to ask him who these warriors of fire were. “They were,” said he, “bearded men, white but swarthy… They had come on floating villages from the side where the sun rises. They conquered the ancients of the country, of whom they killed as many as there are spears of grass in the Prairies, and in the beginning they were good friends of our brothers, but ultimately they made them submit as well as the ancients of the country, as our Suns (leaders) had foreseen and had foretold to them.””
(Swanton 1909 pg. 184)


“There is a dim but persistent tradition of a strange white race preceding the Cherokee, some of the stories even going so far as to locate their former settlements and to identify them as the authors of the ancient works found in the country. The earliest reference appears to be that of Barton in 1797, on the statement of a gentleman whom he quotes as a valuable authority upon the southern tribes. “The Cherokee tell us, that when they first arrived in the country which they inhabit, they found it possessed by certain ‘moon-eyed people,’ who could not see in the day-time. These wretches they expelled.” He seems to consider them an albino race.* Haywood, twenty-six years later, says that the invading Cherokee found “white people” near the head of the Little Tennessee, with forts extending thence down the Tennessee as far as Chickamauga creek. He gives the location of three of these forts. The Cherokee made war against them and drove them to the mouth of Big Chickamauga creek, where they entered into a treaty and agreed to remove if permitted to depart in peace. Permission being granted, they abandoned the country. Elsewhere he speaks of this extirpated white race as having extended into Kentucky and probably also into western Tennessee, according to the concurrent traditions of different tribes.”
(Mooney 1902 pg. 22)


“Did not these skeletons belong to persons of the same race with those white people, who were extirpated in part, and in part driven from Kentucky, and probably also from West Tennessee, as Indian tradition reports?”
(Haywood 1823 pg. 166)

“Mr. Thomas Bodley was informed by Indians of different tribes northwest of the Ohio, that they had understood from their old men, and that it had been a tradition among their several nations, that Kentucky had been settled by whites, and that they had been exterminated by war. They were of opinion that the old fortifications, now to be seen in Kentucky and Ohio, were the productions of those white inhabitants. Wappockanitta, a Shawnee chief, near a hundred and twenty years old, living on the Auglaze River, confirmed the above tradition.”
(M.H. Frost 1819; On the aborigines of the Western Countries)
Last edited by ripliancum on December 12th, 2016, 8:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by ripliancum »

Here is some more archeological evidence that the Nephites built to prevent entry into bountiful.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... t-sea.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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tribrac
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Location: The land northward

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by tribrac »

A friend was struggling with DNA and BoM evidences and geography. After listening to him for a while I asked him why he believed the BoM was a record of people on this earth rather than another earth? Or this cycle of the earths existence.

I once dreamed of someone discovering proof of the BoM. Now, part of me hopes none ever does, because it will take all the fun out of of it. To me the unexplained mystery is part of the allure of the Book of Mormon. I am drawn to it by a strong pull from deep within me even though there is nothing about the book or its origins that satisfies my logical and skeptical self.

I doubt any of this digging will produce a convert, but it might destroy the faith of someone who has hung their hopes on answers from the ground. A wise ape will one day say: Don't look for it, Taylor. You may not like what you find.

dr who
Hi, I'm new.
Posts: 5

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by dr who »

According to Rod Meldrum, the Rive Sidon flowing north is not an accurate statement because it depends on you definition of "head" of the of river. His theory is that "head" is the confluence of the river, not the source of the river. He even claims to have convinced the church to change the Book of Mormon index, which used to state the river ran north, but now it no longer does.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9263
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by larsenb »

tribrac wrote:A friend was struggling with DNA and BoM evidences and geography. After listening to him for a while I asked him why he believed the BoM was a record of people on this earth rather than another earth? Or this cycle of the earths existence.

I once dreamed of someone discovering proof of the BoM. Now, part of me hopes none ever does, because it will take all the fun out of of it. To me the unexplained mystery is part of the allure of the Book of Mormon. I am drawn to it by a strong pull from deep within me even though there is nothing about the book or its origins that satisfies my logical and skeptical self.

I doubt any of this digging will produce a convert, but it might destroy the faith of someone who has hung their hopes on answers from the ground. A wise ape will one day say: Don't look for it, Taylor. You may not like what you find.
Then there are those who may hear of some fairly solid evidence for the Book of Mormon, which piques there interest enough to investigate it, going on to get a spiritual witness of its truth.

Another group could be LDS who have a waning interest or testimony of the book, but remember some solid evidence for its truth, and therefore hang on with their belief long enough to get back on solid spiritual ground.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9263
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by larsenb »

ripliancum wrote: . . . .
When it comes to verse 28 its a perfect description of the plains Indians as the lived in tents. Meso American civilizations from what I know are not known to live in tents.
Verse 28 is in reference to the west border which the plain Indians would be west of Nauvoo or Zarahemla a good match. This verse talks about two borders along the shoreline one along Zarahemla being Lake Michigan and the other along the gulf coast. One of the mistakes you guys make is the statement about the forefathers. Its not refereeing to the Nephite forefathers which landed at first Inheritance but is referring to forefathers of the Lamanites specifically the Ishamealites. The land of Ishmeal is generally kept separate of the land of Nephi and is west of the Mississippi river. The Ishmealite fathers first Inheritance is in the west part of the land of Nephite along the gulf coast.

28 Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their (Lamanite) fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.
Saying people live in tents is NOT a perfect description of the plains Indians.

And a border along the Gulf Coast?? Your whole model doesn't fit the distance constraints that can be easily derived from Book of Mormon passages. Several people have estimated the general area of the Nephite/Lamanite activity before any dispersal; Ric Hauck is one of them. You need to read up on these studies. Otherwise, you are arm-waving.

News flash: the first inheritance was the first inheritance of the Nephite/Lamanite/Ismaelite group after they disembarked from their ship. Look up 'first inheritance' in the scripture link.

Also, the passage is saying "their father's first inheritance" was on the west in the land of Nephi, "and THUS bordering along by the seashore". What this means is that he identifies the west part of the land of Nephi as bordering along by the seashore. Your model would have the Mississippi as the west boundary of the land of Nephi; though your last image it dipping down into Florida.

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9263
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by larsenb »

ripliancum wrote: . . .
I should also add guess what settlers found in the North countries and in areas away from the Mississippi (river sidon) Piles of bones. Indian legend confirm the extermination of a white race of Indian in the state of New York and the removal from the land of Nephi. . . . . .

Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois Chief:

“From the earliest knowledge the white men have possessed of the country of western New York, the Painted Post has been noted as a geographical landmark. When first traversed by the white men, a large oaken post stood at the spot, which has retained the name to this day. It was painted in the Indian manner, and was guarded as a monument by the Indiana, who renewed it as often as it showed evidence of going to decay. Tradition says it was a monument of great antiquity, marking the spot of a great and bloody battle, according to some statements. According to others, it was erected to perpetuate the memory of some great war-chief.” (My opinion is the great Chief is Mormon I can’t prove it though) (Painted Post, New York is located about 70 miles away from Hill Cumorah) (Stone 1838 pg. 318)

In reference to Buffalo, New York in close proximity to what is the narrow neck of land and the Hill Cumorah:

“Tradition fixes upon this spot as the scene of the final and most bloody conflict between the Iroquois and the ”Gah-kwas” or Eries, — a tradition which has been supposed to derive some sanction from the number of fragments of decayed human bones which are scattered over the area.” (Squier 1849)

Mass Burial Pits and Battlegrounds
Two thirds of the Book of Mormon is about wars between the Lamanites and Nephites. Large bone pits and piles were found in the state of New York and other states. These large bone pits are supportive evidence of the battles that took place between Nephites and Lamanites.

In the last battles Mormon states that bodies of the Nephites were heaped into piles (Mormon 2:15).

New York State:

“It was called the “Bone Fort,” from the circumstance that the early settlers found within it a mound, six feet in height by thirty at the base, which was entirely made up of human bones slightly covered with earth… The popular opinion concerning this accumulation is, that it contained the bones of the slain, thus heaped together after some severe battle.” (Squier 1849)

Kentucky:

“Half a mile from this place, at the foot of the mountain, in a large cave full of human bones, perhaps several wagon loads; some of which are small, and others very large” (Haywood 1823 pg. 153)

New York State:

“The bones were of individuals of both sexes and of all ages. Among them were a few fetal bones. Many of the skulls bore marks of violence, leading to the belief that they were broken before burial.” (Squier 1849)

Illinois:

“Mr. Ramey, the owner of the mound, speaks about digging in one part of the field and finding heaps of bones eight feet deep, and says that the bones are everywhere present.” (Peet 1892 pg. 163)

New York State:

“Human bones have been discovered beneath the leaves; and in nearly every part of the trench skeletons of adults of both sexes, of children, and infants, have been found, covered only by the vegetable accumulations. They seem to have been thrown together promiscuously.” (Squier 1849)

New York State:

“Among them may be mentioned the “bone-pits,” or deposits of human bones. One is found near the village of Brownsville, on Black River. It is described as a pit, ten or twelve feet square, by perhaps four feet deep, in which are promiscuously heaped together a large number of human skeletons.” (Squier 1849)
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... s-and.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A White Race and its Extermination
One of the founding Native American DNA markers is a rare Caucasian dna marker found only in North American Indians. As to why this dna Marker is rare is best explained by Native American traditional legends and the Book of Mormon. This white race of Indian was exterminated off the face of North America leaving behind only a rare footprint on the North American continent.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... an_12.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Concerning Hattera Indians of North Carolina:

“These Hattera tell us, that several of their Ancestors were white People, and could talk in a Book, as we do; the Truth of which is confirmed by gray eyes being found frequently amongst these Indians, and no others.”
(John Lawson 1709 pg. 62)

The Nephites who I believe had Caucasian DNA were killed off by the Lamanites. The North American Indians have a legend of a foreign white race being completely killed or removed from certain areas.

Captain Brant Thayendanegea was a well-known Iroquois and Mohawk leader and Chief who sided with the British during the Revolutionary war. He was born of Iroquois parents who converted to Christianity. They gave him a Christian name Joseph Brant. The quote is from his biography:

“I was curious to learn in the course of my conversations with Captain Brant (Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois Chief), what information he could give me respecting the tumuli (mounds) which are found on and near the margin of the rivers and lakes, from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi. He stated, in reply, that the subject had long been agitated, but yet remained in some obscurity. A tradition, he said, prevailed among the different nations of Indians through-out that whole extensive range of country, and had been handed down time immemorial, that in an age long gone by, there came white men from a foreign country, and by consent of the Indians established trading-houses and settlements where these tumuli (mounds) are found. A friendly intercourse was continued for several years; many of the white men brought their wives, and had children born to them; and additions to their numbers were made yearly from their own country. These circumstances at length gave rise to jealousies among the Indians, and fears began to be entertained in regard to the increasing numbers, wealth, and ulterior views of the new comers; apprehending that becoming strong, they might one day seize upon the country as their own. A secret council, composed of the chiefs of all the different nations from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi, was therefore convoked; the result of which, after long deliberation, was a resolution that on a certain night designated for that purpose, all their white neighbors, men, women and children, should be exterminated.“
(Stone 1838 pg. 484)


“Here the Indians tell us there was a war in early times, against an Indian town, traces of which are yet visible, corn pits, etc. This was inhabited by a distinct nation, neither Iroquois nor Delawares, who spoke a peculiar language, and were called Tehotitachse, against them the Five Nations warred and routed them out; the Cayugas for a time held a number captive, but the nation and the language are now exterminated and extinct.”
(Murray 1908 pg. 46)


Natchez Indians of Mississippi, in reference to an ancient race of Indian who preceded them and eventually were defeated:


“I did not fail to ask him who these warriors of fire were. “They were,” said he, “bearded men, white but swarthy… They had come on floating villages from the side where the sun rises. They conquered the ancients of the country, of whom they killed as many as there are spears of grass in the Prairies, and in the beginning they were good friends of our brothers, but ultimately they made them submit as well as the ancients of the country, as our Suns (leaders) had foreseen and had foretold to them.””
(Swanton 1909 pg. 184)


“There is a dim but persistent tradition of a strange white race preceding the Cherokee, some of the stories even going so far as to locate their former settlements and to identify them as the authors of the ancient works found in the country. The earliest reference appears to be that of Barton in 1797, on the statement of a gentleman whom he quotes as a valuable authority upon the southern tribes. “The Cherokee tell us, that when they first arrived in the country which they inhabit, they found it possessed by certain ‘moon-eyed people,’ who could not see in the day-time. These wretches they expelled.” He seems to consider them an albino race.* Haywood, twenty-six years later, says that the invading Cherokee found “white people” near the head of the Little Tennessee, with forts extending thence down the Tennessee as far as Chickamauga creek. He gives the location of three of these forts. The Cherokee made war against them and drove them to the mouth of Big Chickamauga creek, where they entered into a treaty and agreed to remove if permitted to depart in peace. Permission being granted, they abandoned the country. Elsewhere he speaks of this extirpated white race as having extended into Kentucky and probably also into western Tennessee, according to the concurrent traditions of different tribes.”
(Mooney 1902 pg. 22)


“Did not these skeletons belong to persons of the same race with those white people, who were extirpated in part, and in part driven from Kentucky, and probably also from West Tennessee, as Indian tradition reports?”
(Haywood 1823 pg. 166)

“Mr. Thomas Bodley was informed by Indians of different tribes northwest of the Ohio, that they had understood from their old men, and that it had been a tradition among their several nations, that Kentucky had been settled by whites, and that they had been exterminated by war. They were of opinion that the old fortifications, now to be seen in Kentucky and Ohio, were the productions of those white inhabitants. Wappockanitta, a Shawnee chief, near a hundred and twenty years old, living on the Auglaze River, confirmed the above tradition.”
(M.H. Frost 1819; On the aborigines of the Western Countries)
These stories, as anecdotal as some of them may be, are very interesting.

But I think a trap many people get into is to identify these 'white people' and bone heaps with Nephites/Lamanites, per se.

We simply don't know all that has happened in this hemisphere. There is fairly strong evidence that the continental US and elsewhere have been visited multiple times by various people from the Middle/Near East, Europe and elsewhere (VIkings, a case in point . . . just how far afield did they get??)

Berry Fell has transcribed a Mic Mac chant into phonetics and identified the language as Ptolomaic Greek, and speculated that the Mic Mac ancestors were from this group, and who had brought an Egyptian script with them (Ptolomaic => Egyptian). They had lost the meaning of the chant, according to Fell. This could account for a lot of the Greek crosses, etc., and other Greek influences/names you cite.

Ask yourself, how did the Mulekites arrive here? The best speculation I've seen is that they hired Phoenicians to take them here. There is good evidence for a Phoenician presence in various part of the New World. Next question is: where else did they get in the New World, and how often.

Fell has also identified many Libyan rock chambers and inscriptions in the New England area, which Libyan archaeologists have identified has having been produced by "their boys". The Libyan influence could probably be related to the Phoenicians.

Fell has identified many Ogam scripts in various part of the continental US. He notes the existence of an extensive Tifinik (sp?) script in Ontario, Canada. The same script is also found in Scandinavia and in North Africa of all places. Explain that.

Scott Wolter presents good evidence for the presence of Templers in what is now the US and Canada, probably dating to the early 1400's. He has also presented evidence that late Romans were here, and has even identified carvings here that fit the Mithraic religion. Mithraism was very prominent in late Roman times.

Lucy Thomas, a Yurok (Klamath) Indian, in her book: To the American Indian", tells how her tribe encountered whites when they first came into the country. She also says the whites told them that when they first came into the country, there were giant animals present (Pleistocene mega fauna, anybody?) Lucy was a Yurok Indian priestess, writing after the turn of the last century.

The point being that the stories you relate, don't necessarily describe Nephites vs. Lamanites. You've also got a lot of stories about giants existing here as well as in Mexico.

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5247

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by Silver »

Good points, larsenb. There have likely been hundreds of Old World to New World contacts made before and after Lehi's arrival but still prior to Columbus arriving in 1492.

User avatar
tribrac
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3506
Location: The land northward

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by tribrac »

So I wish one of you really ambitious people would make a thread listing all of the BoM models including a detailed analysis of each models strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks in advance.

I started a partial list for you:
Heartland
Great Lakes
Baja California
Mexico
Meso America
and the good old Two Continent
I also read a pretty good one about Chille & Peru.

Any others?

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9263
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by larsenb »

tribrac wrote:So I wish one of you really ambitious people would make a thread listing all of the BoM models including a detailed analysis of each models strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks in advance.

I started a partial list for you:
Heartland
Great Lakes
Baja California
Mexico
Meso America
and the good old Two Continent
I also read a pretty good one about Chille & Peru.

Any others?
Actually, something like that is being done . . . now . . . as we speak.

There is a new project with its own website called Book of Mormon Central located at: https://bookofmormoncentral.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . They are working on the very thing you want to see, among many other projects.

Stay tuned.

User avatar
tribrac
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3506
Location: The land northward

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by tribrac »

larsenb wrote:
tribrac wrote:So I wish one of you really ambitious people would make a thread listing all of the BoM models including a detailed analysis of each models strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks in advance.

I started a partial list for you:
Heartland
Great Lakes
Baja California
Mexico
Meso America
and the good old Two Continent
I also read a pretty good one about Chille & Peru.

Any others?
Actually, something like that is being done . . . now . . . as we speak.

There is a new project with its own website called Book of Mormon Central located at: https://bookofmormoncentral.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . They are working on the very thing you want to see, among many other projects.

Stay tuned.
Well, then Thanks.

Interesting site.

"It [Sidon]flowed in a northerly direction. There is never a mention of the mouth of the river. So it is unclear wether it came flowed to the sea on the east or the west."

ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by ripliancum »

tribrac wrote:
larsenb wrote:
tribrac wrote:So I wish one of you really ambitious people would make a thread listing all of the BoM models including a detailed analysis of each models strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks in advance.

I started a partial list for you:
Heartland
Great Lakes
Baja California
Mexico
Meso America
and the good old Two Continent
I also read a pretty good one about Chille & Peru.

Any others?
Actually, something like that is being done . . . now . . . as we speak.

There is a new project with its own website called Book of Mormon Central located at: https://bookofmormoncentral.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . They are working on the very thing you want to see, among many other projects.

Stay tuned.
Well, then Thanks.

Interesting site.

"It [Sidon]flowed in a northerly direction. There is never a mention of the mouth of the river. So it is unclear wether it came flowed to the sea on the east or the west."
The river Sidon is most likely the Mississippi it flows in a north south direction. There is a second river mentioned that flows from east to west. The river Sidon flows into the South Sea.

ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by ripliancum »

larsenb wrote:
tribrac wrote:So I wish one of you really ambitious people would make a thread listing all of the BoM models including a detailed analysis of each models strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks in advance.

I started a partial list for you:
Heartland
Great Lakes
Baja California
Mexico
Meso America
and the good old Two Continent
I also read a pretty good one about Chille & Peru.

Any others?
Actually, something like that is being done . . . now . . . as we speak.

There is a new project with its own website called Book of Mormon Central located at: https://bookofmormoncentral.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . They are working on the very thing you want to see, among many other projects.

Stay tuned.
Book of Mormon Central is nothing more than a pro meso American website and it also does not have the most correct model the six sea model.

ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by ripliancum »

larsenb wrote:
ripliancum wrote: . . .
I should also add guess what settlers found in the North countries and in areas away from the Mississippi (river sidon) Piles of bones. Indian legend confirm the extermination of a white race of Indian in the state of New York and the removal from the land of Nephi. . . . . .

Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois Chief:

“From the earliest knowledge the white men have possessed of the country of western New York, the Painted Post has been noted as a geographical landmark. When first traversed by the white men, a large oaken post stood at the spot, which has retained the name to this day. It was painted in the Indian manner, and was guarded as a monument by the Indiana, who renewed it as often as it showed evidence of going to decay. Tradition says it was a monument of great antiquity, marking the spot of a great and bloody battle, according to some statements. According to others, it was erected to perpetuate the memory of some great war-chief.” (My opinion is the great Chief is Mormon I can’t prove it though) (Painted Post, New York is located about 70 miles away from Hill Cumorah) (Stone 1838 pg. 318)

In reference to Buffalo, New York in close proximity to what is the narrow neck of land and the Hill Cumorah:

“Tradition fixes upon this spot as the scene of the final and most bloody conflict between the Iroquois and the ”Gah-kwas” or Eries, — a tradition which has been supposed to derive some sanction from the number of fragments of decayed human bones which are scattered over the area.” (Squier 1849)

Mass Burial Pits and Battlegrounds
Two thirds of the Book of Mormon is about wars between the Lamanites and Nephites. Large bone pits and piles were found in the state of New York and other states. These large bone pits are supportive evidence of the battles that took place between Nephites and Lamanites.

In the last battles Mormon states that bodies of the Nephites were heaped into piles (Mormon 2:15).

New York State:

“It was called the “Bone Fort,” from the circumstance that the early settlers found within it a mound, six feet in height by thirty at the base, which was entirely made up of human bones slightly covered with earth… The popular opinion concerning this accumulation is, that it contained the bones of the slain, thus heaped together after some severe battle.” (Squier 1849)

Kentucky:

“Half a mile from this place, at the foot of the mountain, in a large cave full of human bones, perhaps several wagon loads; some of which are small, and others very large” (Haywood 1823 pg. 153)

New York State:

“The bones were of individuals of both sexes and of all ages. Among them were a few fetal bones. Many of the skulls bore marks of violence, leading to the belief that they were broken before burial.” (Squier 1849)

Illinois:

“Mr. Ramey, the owner of the mound, speaks about digging in one part of the field and finding heaps of bones eight feet deep, and says that the bones are everywhere present.” (Peet 1892 pg. 163)

New York State:

“Human bones have been discovered beneath the leaves; and in nearly every part of the trench skeletons of adults of both sexes, of children, and infants, have been found, covered only by the vegetable accumulations. They seem to have been thrown together promiscuously.” (Squier 1849)

New York State:

“Among them may be mentioned the “bone-pits,” or deposits of human bones. One is found near the village of Brownsville, on Black River. It is described as a pit, ten or twelve feet square, by perhaps four feet deep, in which are promiscuously heaped together a large number of human skeletons.” (Squier 1849)
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... s-and.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A White Race and its Extermination
One of the founding Native American DNA markers is a rare Caucasian dna marker found only in North American Indians. As to why this dna Marker is rare is best explained by Native American traditional legends and the Book of Mormon. This white race of Indian was exterminated off the face of North America leaving behind only a rare footprint on the North American continent.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... an_12.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Concerning Hattera Indians of North Carolina:

“These Hattera tell us, that several of their Ancestors were white People, and could talk in a Book, as we do; the Truth of which is confirmed by gray eyes being found frequently amongst these Indians, and no others.”
(John Lawson 1709 pg. 62)

The Nephites who I believe had Caucasian DNA were killed off by the Lamanites. The North American Indians have a legend of a foreign white race being completely killed or removed from certain areas.

Captain Brant Thayendanegea was a well-known Iroquois and Mohawk leader and Chief who sided with the British during the Revolutionary war. He was born of Iroquois parents who converted to Christianity. They gave him a Christian name Joseph Brant. The quote is from his biography:

“I was curious to learn in the course of my conversations with Captain Brant (Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois Chief), what information he could give me respecting the tumuli (mounds) which are found on and near the margin of the rivers and lakes, from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi. He stated, in reply, that the subject had long been agitated, but yet remained in some obscurity. A tradition, he said, prevailed among the different nations of Indians through-out that whole extensive range of country, and had been handed down time immemorial, that in an age long gone by, there came white men from a foreign country, and by consent of the Indians established trading-houses and settlements where these tumuli (mounds) are found. A friendly intercourse was continued for several years; many of the white men brought their wives, and had children born to them; and additions to their numbers were made yearly from their own country. These circumstances at length gave rise to jealousies among the Indians, and fears began to be entertained in regard to the increasing numbers, wealth, and ulterior views of the new comers; apprehending that becoming strong, they might one day seize upon the country as their own. A secret council, composed of the chiefs of all the different nations from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi, was therefore convoked; the result of which, after long deliberation, was a resolution that on a certain night designated for that purpose, all their white neighbors, men, women and children, should be exterminated.“
(Stone 1838 pg. 484)


“Here the Indians tell us there was a war in early times, against an Indian town, traces of which are yet visible, corn pits, etc. This was inhabited by a distinct nation, neither Iroquois nor Delawares, who spoke a peculiar language, and were called Tehotitachse, against them the Five Nations warred and routed them out; the Cayugas for a time held a number captive, but the nation and the language are now exterminated and extinct.”
(Murray 1908 pg. 46)


Natchez Indians of Mississippi, in reference to an ancient race of Indian who preceded them and eventually were defeated:


“I did not fail to ask him who these warriors of fire were. “They were,” said he, “bearded men, white but swarthy… They had come on floating villages from the side where the sun rises. They conquered the ancients of the country, of whom they killed as many as there are spears of grass in the Prairies, and in the beginning they were good friends of our brothers, but ultimately they made them submit as well as the ancients of the country, as our Suns (leaders) had foreseen and had foretold to them.””
(Swanton 1909 pg. 184)


“There is a dim but persistent tradition of a strange white race preceding the Cherokee, some of the stories even going so far as to locate their former settlements and to identify them as the authors of the ancient works found in the country. The earliest reference appears to be that of Barton in 1797, on the statement of a gentleman whom he quotes as a valuable authority upon the southern tribes. “The Cherokee tell us, that when they first arrived in the country which they inhabit, they found it possessed by certain ‘moon-eyed people,’ who could not see in the day-time. These wretches they expelled.” He seems to consider them an albino race.* Haywood, twenty-six years later, says that the invading Cherokee found “white people” near the head of the Little Tennessee, with forts extending thence down the Tennessee as far as Chickamauga creek. He gives the location of three of these forts. The Cherokee made war against them and drove them to the mouth of Big Chickamauga creek, where they entered into a treaty and agreed to remove if permitted to depart in peace. Permission being granted, they abandoned the country. Elsewhere he speaks of this extirpated white race as having extended into Kentucky and probably also into western Tennessee, according to the concurrent traditions of different tribes.”
(Mooney 1902 pg. 22)


“Did not these skeletons belong to persons of the same race with those white people, who were extirpated in part, and in part driven from Kentucky, and probably also from West Tennessee, as Indian tradition reports?”
(Haywood 1823 pg. 166)

“Mr. Thomas Bodley was informed by Indians of different tribes northwest of the Ohio, that they had understood from their old men, and that it had been a tradition among their several nations, that Kentucky had been settled by whites, and that they had been exterminated by war. They were of opinion that the old fortifications, now to be seen in Kentucky and Ohio, were the productions of those white inhabitants. Wappockanitta, a Shawnee chief, near a hundred and twenty years old, living on the Auglaze River, confirmed the above tradition.”
(M.H. Frost 1819; On the aborigines of the Western Countries)
These stories, as anecdotal as some of them may be, are very interesting.

But I think a trap many people get into is to identify these 'white people' and bone heaps with Nephites/Lamanites, per se.

We simply don't know all that has happened in this hemisphere. There is fairly strong evidence that the continental US and elsewhere have been visited multiple times by various people from the Middle/Near East, Europe and elsewhere (VIkings, a case in point . . . just how far afield did they get??)

Berry Fell has transcribed a Mic Mac chant into phonetics and identified the language as Ptolomaic Greek, and speculated that the Mic Mac ancestors were from this group, and who had brought an Egyptian script with them (Ptolomaic => Egyptian). They had lost the meaning of the chant, according to Fell. This could account for a lot of the Greek crosses, etc., and other Greek influences/names you cite.

Ask yourself, how did the Mulekites arrive here? The best speculation I've seen is that they hired Phoenicians to take them here. There is good evidence for a Phoenician presence in various part of the New World. Next question is: where else did they get in the New World, and how often.

Fell has also identified many Libyan rock chambers and inscriptions in the New England area, which Libyan archaeologists have identified has having been produced by "their boys". The Libyan influence could probably be related to the Phoenicians.

Fell has identified many Ogam scripts in various part of the continental US. He notes the existence of an extensive Tifinik (sp?) script in Ontario, Canada. The same script is also found in Scandinavia and in North Africa of all places. Explain that.

Scott Wolter presents good evidence for the presence of Templers in what is now the US and Canada, probably dating to the early 1400's. He has also presented evidence that late Romans were here, and has even identified carvings here that fit the Mithraic religion. Mithraism was very prominent in late Roman times.

Lucy Thomas, a Yurok (Klamath) Indian, in her book: To the American Indian", tells how her tribe encountered whites when they first came into the country. She also says the whites told them that when they first came into the country, there were giant animals present (Pleistocene mega fauna, anybody?) Lucy was a Yurok Indian priestess, writing after the turn of the last century.

The point being that the stories you relate, don't necessarily describe Nephites vs. Lamanites. You've also got a lot of stories about giants existing here as well as in Mexico.
These native American beliefs fit right along with the Book of Mormon. So does their dna. The only place you can find DNA from the middles east are in these tribes.(North American Tribes)

ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by ripliancum »

larsenb wrote:
ripliancum wrote: . . .
I should also add guess what settlers found in the North countries and in areas away from the Mississippi (river sidon) Piles of bones. Indian legend confirm the extermination of a white race of Indian in the state of New York and the removal from the land of Nephi. . . . . .

Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois Chief:

“From the earliest knowledge the white men have possessed of the country of western New York, the Painted Post has been noted as a geographical landmark. When first traversed by the white men, a large oaken post stood at the spot, which has retained the name to this day. It was painted in the Indian manner, and was guarded as a monument by the Indiana, who renewed it as often as it showed evidence of going to decay. Tradition says it was a monument of great antiquity, marking the spot of a great and bloody battle, according to some statements. According to others, it was erected to perpetuate the memory of some great war-chief.” (My opinion is the great Chief is Mormon I can’t prove it though) (Painted Post, New York is located about 70 miles away from Hill Cumorah) (Stone 1838 pg. 318)

In reference to Buffalo, New York in close proximity to what is the narrow neck of land and the Hill Cumorah:

“Tradition fixes upon this spot as the scene of the final and most bloody conflict between the Iroquois and the ”Gah-kwas” or Eries, — a tradition which has been supposed to derive some sanction from the number of fragments of decayed human bones which are scattered over the area.” (Squier 1849)

Mass Burial Pits and Battlegrounds
Two thirds of the Book of Mormon is about wars between the Lamanites and Nephites. Large bone pits and piles were found in the state of New York and other states. These large bone pits are supportive evidence of the battles that took place between Nephites and Lamanites.

In the last battles Mormon states that bodies of the Nephites were heaped into piles (Mormon 2:15).

New York State:

“It was called the “Bone Fort,” from the circumstance that the early settlers found within it a mound, six feet in height by thirty at the base, which was entirely made up of human bones slightly covered with earth… The popular opinion concerning this accumulation is, that it contained the bones of the slain, thus heaped together after some severe battle.” (Squier 1849)

Kentucky:

“Half a mile from this place, at the foot of the mountain, in a large cave full of human bones, perhaps several wagon loads; some of which are small, and others very large” (Haywood 1823 pg. 153)

New York State:

“The bones were of individuals of both sexes and of all ages. Among them were a few fetal bones. Many of the skulls bore marks of violence, leading to the belief that they were broken before burial.” (Squier 1849)

Illinois:

“Mr. Ramey, the owner of the mound, speaks about digging in one part of the field and finding heaps of bones eight feet deep, and says that the bones are everywhere present.” (Peet 1892 pg. 163)

New York State:

“Human bones have been discovered beneath the leaves; and in nearly every part of the trench skeletons of adults of both sexes, of children, and infants, have been found, covered only by the vegetable accumulations. They seem to have been thrown together promiscuously.” (Squier 1849)

New York State:

“Among them may be mentioned the “bone-pits,” or deposits of human bones. One is found near the village of Brownsville, on Black River. It is described as a pit, ten or twelve feet square, by perhaps four feet deep, in which are promiscuously heaped together a large number of human skeletons.” (Squier 1849)
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... s-and.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A White Race and its Extermination
One of the founding Native American DNA markers is a rare Caucasian dna marker found only in North American Indians. As to why this dna Marker is rare is best explained by Native American traditional legends and the Book of Mormon. This white race of Indian was exterminated off the face of North America leaving behind only a rare footprint on the North American continent.

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... an_12.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Concerning Hattera Indians of North Carolina:

“These Hattera tell us, that several of their Ancestors were white People, and could talk in a Book, as we do; the Truth of which is confirmed by gray eyes being found frequently amongst these Indians, and no others.”
(John Lawson 1709 pg. 62)

The Nephites who I believe had Caucasian DNA were killed off by the Lamanites. The North American Indians have a legend of a foreign white race being completely killed or removed from certain areas.

Captain Brant Thayendanegea was a well-known Iroquois and Mohawk leader and Chief who sided with the British during the Revolutionary war. He was born of Iroquois parents who converted to Christianity. They gave him a Christian name Joseph Brant. The quote is from his biography:

“I was curious to learn in the course of my conversations with Captain Brant (Thayendanegea Mohawk/Iroquois Chief), what information he could give me respecting the tumuli (mounds) which are found on and near the margin of the rivers and lakes, from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi. He stated, in reply, that the subject had long been agitated, but yet remained in some obscurity. A tradition, he said, prevailed among the different nations of Indians through-out that whole extensive range of country, and had been handed down time immemorial, that in an age long gone by, there came white men from a foreign country, and by consent of the Indians established trading-houses and settlements where these tumuli (mounds) are found. A friendly intercourse was continued for several years; many of the white men brought their wives, and had children born to them; and additions to their numbers were made yearly from their own country. These circumstances at length gave rise to jealousies among the Indians, and fears began to be entertained in regard to the increasing numbers, wealth, and ulterior views of the new comers; apprehending that becoming strong, they might one day seize upon the country as their own. A secret council, composed of the chiefs of all the different nations from the St. Lawrence to the Mississippi, was therefore convoked; the result of which, after long deliberation, was a resolution that on a certain night designated for that purpose, all their white neighbors, men, women and children, should be exterminated.“
(Stone 1838 pg. 484)


“Here the Indians tell us there was a war in early times, against an Indian town, traces of which are yet visible, corn pits, etc. This was inhabited by a distinct nation, neither Iroquois nor Delawares, who spoke a peculiar language, and were called Tehotitachse, against them the Five Nations warred and routed them out; the Cayugas for a time held a number captive, but the nation and the language are now exterminated and extinct.”
(Murray 1908 pg. 46)


Natchez Indians of Mississippi, in reference to an ancient race of Indian who preceded them and eventually were defeated:


“I did not fail to ask him who these warriors of fire were. “They were,” said he, “bearded men, white but swarthy… They had come on floating villages from the side where the sun rises. They conquered the ancients of the country, of whom they killed as many as there are spears of grass in the Prairies, and in the beginning they were good friends of our brothers, but ultimately they made them submit as well as the ancients of the country, as our Suns (leaders) had foreseen and had foretold to them.””
(Swanton 1909 pg. 184)


“There is a dim but persistent tradition of a strange white race preceding the Cherokee, some of the stories even going so far as to locate their former settlements and to identify them as the authors of the ancient works found in the country. The earliest reference appears to be that of Barton in 1797, on the statement of a gentleman whom he quotes as a valuable authority upon the southern tribes. “The Cherokee tell us, that when they first arrived in the country which they inhabit, they found it possessed by certain ‘moon-eyed people,’ who could not see in the day-time. These wretches they expelled.” He seems to consider them an albino race.* Haywood, twenty-six years later, says that the invading Cherokee found “white people” near the head of the Little Tennessee, with forts extending thence down the Tennessee as far as Chickamauga creek. He gives the location of three of these forts. The Cherokee made war against them and drove them to the mouth of Big Chickamauga creek, where they entered into a treaty and agreed to remove if permitted to depart in peace. Permission being granted, they abandoned the country. Elsewhere he speaks of this extirpated white race as having extended into Kentucky and probably also into western Tennessee, according to the concurrent traditions of different tribes.”
(Mooney 1902 pg. 22)


“Did not these skeletons belong to persons of the same race with those white people, who were extirpated in part, and in part driven from Kentucky, and probably also from West Tennessee, as Indian tradition reports?”
(Haywood 1823 pg. 166)

“Mr. Thomas Bodley was informed by Indians of different tribes northwest of the Ohio, that they had understood from their old men, and that it had been a tradition among their several nations, that Kentucky had been settled by whites, and that they had been exterminated by war. They were of opinion that the old fortifications, now to be seen in Kentucky and Ohio, were the productions of those white inhabitants. Wappockanitta, a Shawnee chief, near a hundred and twenty years old, living on the Auglaze River, confirmed the above tradition.”
(M.H. Frost 1819; On the aborigines of the Western Countries)
These stories, as anecdotal as some of them may be, are very interesting.

But I think a trap many people get into is to identify these 'white people' and bone heaps with Nephites/Lamanites, per se.

We simply don't know all that has happened in this hemisphere. There is fairly strong evidence that the continental US and elsewhere have been visited multiple times by various people from the Middle/Near East, Europe and elsewhere (VIkings, a case in point . . . just how far afield did they get??)

Berry Fell has transcribed a Mic Mac chant into phonetics and identified the language as Ptolomaic Greek, and speculated that the Mic Mac ancestors were from this group, and who had brought an Egyptian script with them (Ptolomaic => Egyptian). They had lost the meaning of the chant, according to Fell. This could account for a lot of the Greek crosses, etc., and other Greek influences/names you cite.

Ask yourself, how did the Mulekites arrive here? The best speculation I've seen is that they hired Phoenicians to take them here. There is good evidence for a Phoenician presence in various part of the New World. Next question is: where else did they get in the New World, and how often.

Fell has also identified many Libyan rock chambers and inscriptions in the New England area, which Libyan archaeologists have identified has having been produced by "their boys". The Libyan influence could probably be related to the Phoenicians.

Fell has identified many Ogam scripts in various part of the continental US. He notes the existence of an extensive Tifinik (sp?) script in Ontario, Canada. The same script is also found in Scandinavia and in North Africa of all places. Explain that.

Scott Wolter presents good evidence for the presence of Templers in what is now the US and Canada, probably dating to the early 1400's. He has also presented evidence that late Romans were here, and has even identified carvings here that fit the Mithraic religion. Mithraism was very prominent in late Roman times.

Lucy Thomas, a Yurok (Klamath) Indian, in her book: To the American Indian", tells how her tribe encountered whites when they first came into the country. She also says the whites told them that when they first came into the country, there were giant animals present (Pleistocene mega fauna, anybody?) Lucy was a Yurok Indian priestess, writing after the turn of the last century.

The point being that the stories you relate, don't necessarily describe Nephites vs. Lamanites. You've also got a lot of stories about giants existing here as well as in Mexico.
The Hopewell who Joseph Smith said their mounds were the Nephites also have all the necessary artifacts like breastplates clothing etc.

Breastplates
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ce-of.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Clothing
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... ttons.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

iron tools
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... tools.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

swords
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... words.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Trade and horses
http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.co ... hways.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

larsenb
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9263
Location: Between here and Standing Rock

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by larsenb »

ripliancum wrote:
tribrac wrote:
larsenb wrote:
tribrac wrote:So I wish one of you really ambitious people would make a thread listing all of the BoM models including a detailed analysis of each models strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks in advance.

I started a partial list for you:
Heartland
Great Lakes
Baja California
Mexico
Meso America
and the good old Two Continent
I also read a pretty good one about Chille & Peru.

Any others?
Actually, something like that is being done . . . now . . . as we speak.

There is a new project with its own website called Book of Mormon Central located at: https://bookofmormoncentral.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . They are working on the very thing you want to see, among many other projects.

Stay tuned.
Well, then Thanks.

Interesting site.

"It [Sidon]flowed in a northerly direction. There is never a mention of the mouth of the river. So it is unclear wether it came flowed to the sea on the east or the west."
The river Sidon is most likely the Mississippi it flows in a north south direction. There is a second river mentioned that flows from east to west. The river Sidon flows into the South Sea.
You''re one of the most impermeable people I've ever run across. No rational argument or solid evidence that contradicts your views affects you at all. Oh, well.

ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by ripliancum »

larsenb wrote:
ripliancum wrote:
tribrac wrote:
larsenb wrote: Actually, something like that is being done . . . now . . . as we speak.

There is a new project with its own website called Book of Mormon Central located at: https://bookofmormoncentral.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . They are working on the very thing you want to see, among many other projects.

Stay tuned.
Well, then Thanks.

Interesting site.

"It [Sidon]flowed in a northerly direction. There is never a mention of the mouth of the river. So it is unclear wether it came flowed to the sea on the east or the west."
The river Sidon is most likely the Mississippi it flows in a north south direction. There is a second river mentioned that flows from east to west. The river Sidon flows into the South Sea.
You''re one of the most impermeable people I've ever run across. No rational argument or solid evidence that contradicts your views affects you at all. Oh, well.
Confirmed artifacts by non lds archeologist

Hand written letters by Joseph smith

Scriptures in doctrine and covenants that say Missouri is the lamanite border

Historical accounts of Native American beliefs that support the Book of Mormon record.


What evidence do you have ??????????

ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by ripliancum »

The river Sidon flows into the south sea or gulf of Mexico.

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5247

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by Silver »

ripliancum wrote:The river Sidon flows into the south sea or gulf of Mexico.
OK, please, just give us one scripture in the BoM that says that.

ripliancum
captain of 100
Posts: 178

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by ripliancum »

Silver wrote:
ripliancum wrote:The river Sidon flows into the south sea or gulf of Mexico.
OK, please, just give us one scripture in the BoM that says that.
The Book of Mormon never states which sea it emptied into. But we do know that it flowed from North to south or south to North. Given that its a safe assumption it flowed into the South Sea or North Sea. Given D&c 54:8 places Lamanite borders in Missouri and letters and statements by Joseph Smith placing Book of Mormon geography in the east region of the united states its. Its safe to say the river Sidon is the Mississippi river and the Gulf of Mexico is the South Sea mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5247

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by Silver »

ripliancum wrote:
Silver wrote:
ripliancum wrote:The river Sidon flows into the south sea or gulf of Mexico.
OK, please, just give us one scripture in the BoM that says that.
The Book of Mormon never states which sea it emptied into. But we do know that it flowed from North to south or south to North. Given that its a safe assumption it flowed into the South Sea or North Sea. Given D&c 54:8 places Lamanite borders in Missouri and letters and statements by Joseph Smith placing Book of Mormon geography in the east region of the united states its. Its safe to say the river Sidon is the Mississippi river and the Gulf of Mexico is the South Sea mentioned in the Book of Mormon.
That's a stretch. An uncomfortable stretch. Here's how easy it is to upset the basis of your claim.

I just did a simple Google search for "1831 indian reservations" and found this:
"The Cherokee went to the Supreme Court again in 1831. This time they based their appeal on an 1830 Georgia law which prohibited whites from living on Indian territory after March 31, 1831, without a license from the state. The state legislature had written this law to justify removing white missionaries who were helping the Indians resist removal. The court this time decided in favor of the Cherokee. It stated that the Cherokee had the right to self-government, and declared Georgia's extension of state law over them to be unconstitutional. The state of Georgia refused to abide by the Court decision, however, and President Jackson refused to enforce the law. " (end quote)

Why 1831? Because that's the year the prophet Joseph received the revelation in Section 54. In 1831, yes, there were definitely native Americans living out west, but how do account for all the others living in the eastern portion of the North American continent? By the 19th century, the descendants of the Lamanites have had time to travel thousands of miles. Even, hold on to your hat, from Mesoamerica.

Missouri, by the way, had been a state for 10 years by the time Joseph recorded Section 54. From Wikipedia:
"The Territory of Missouri was an organized incorporated territory of the United States that existed from June 4, 1812 until August 10, 1821, when the southeastern portion of the territory was admitted to the Union as the State of Missouri." (end quote)

It's been 57 years since a state was added to the Union, but back in Joseph's day, it was a big deal. Manifest Destiny, dude, Manifest Destiny.

Have you answered larsenb's point about Lehi and family arriving by sea? Where did they arrive in your view?

samizdat
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3511

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by samizdat »

Most Heartlanders give the area of the central to eastern Gulf Coast as Lehi's landing site.

There is a huge problem however. They brought seeds from Jerusalem which has a totally different climate than the Gulf Coast. The seeds grew which is only possible in similar climates.

You have this type of climate in four areas of the American comtinent:

Central and north central Chile

Central and southern California and extreme north Baja California

Those climates mirror Jerusalem's.

Other areas with rainy and dry seasons without too much rain:

The Altiplanos of south central Mexico

The highland regions of Peru.

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5247

Re: Zarahemla and the Mississippi River

Post by Silver »

Gulf Coast? I thought Lehi sailed east from Bountiful when Nephi's ship was launched into Irreantum. Did they wave at the penguins when they sailed past Tierra Del Fuego?

W. Cleon Skousen taught me that Lehi landed somewhere on the west coast of the Americas. Makes sense to me.

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